Monster Cable HDMI Scam


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HawkMan
You can all believe what you like about the properties of digital, that's fine. I'm not the one suffering if you do. I should have known this would be the case, trying to debate this with the generation that thinks MP3s are the epitome of sound reproduction and that PC speaker systems are hi-fi.

Thank you.

I noticed you have seen both my music collection, receiver/amplifier and Speaker setup since you are so knowledgeable about it...

except my Dali speakers are hardly classified as PC speakers, and neither is the rest of my setup.

maybe you should assume less. because if you thought you aimed that at me, you missd the target on every single point.

however one thing you can't argue is that if the signal is the same at the other end, you don't need a better cable. and unelss the cable is broken, a regular HDMI will privde you with this at 1-3 meters.

once you hit 5+ then you may hav issues with outside noise, signal blending (where the edges of the digital 1 and 0's blend into each other and turn into aless defineable sine curve, wich is bad on digital signals), as well as general signal drops come into play. However at 3 meters you have either a really ****ty or a really broken cable or the signal to get so messed up it's noth within the treshold of the equipment of the other end to properly recongize a 1 or 0. Afterall it doesn't matter if it's only barely a zero or a one, as long as it IS barely a zero or a one.

in fact given my education I'd bet I know more about signals in cables, digital and analog alike than you, but it's not something I care to argue.

As for the audio quality changign when moving a toslink cable. YEah, of course given that most audio quality Toslink cables are plastic and not glass, their signal quality is pretty bad, but they don't eed to be very good either. However if the cbale is bad, and has cracks or the inner and outer materials don't site right all the way. you could actually break the ability of the cbale to properly reflect the light and instead lea it out. meaning you are actually losing the signal at least partially. That'd be the only way you get signal quality changes on an optical cable. ****ty cable+broken refraction. something that could easily happen if you bend it to hard/sharply.

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+Fahim S.

That's great - it's a link. And I know about scientific method (thanks).

It doesn't answer my question - so I'll repeat the question.

when a test is trying to define the subjective perception of something, how can it ever objectively prove the difference between any two things...?

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Glowstick

I actually work in a company that manufactures cables.

If any of you think that there Monster Cables are something special, then you fell in the audio-/videophile trap (which is mongohuge, wooden volume knobs anyone?). If you audio-/videophiles would see how copper's drawn from large gauge (as delivered from copper refineries) to the thin gauges used in your precious cables, you'd actually cry yourself to bed.

There's no magic pixie dust that Monster Cable and its cohorts can sprinkle on the copper to make it get the mystical properties they keep advertising. A copper wire is a copper wire. The only "special" thing you'll find here is tin coating, which merely is to prevent corrosion.

Then again, there's also people that swear that a few microns of gold plating on their power plug between the power cord and the power outlet, which is hooked up to a few kilometers of heavy duty cabling to the next transformation unit, makes a huge difference in sound (wooden volume knobs again?).

Given a certain gauge and resistance (alternatively length, since resistance scales linearly), the signals will be transported the same. On cable lengths as found on AV equipment, power cords and other digital transports aren't creating enough induction to significantly affect each others signals.

And in the case there are actually bit errors, you get error correction codes. The most commonly used is Reed-Solomon, which is pretty powerful and allows for multiple bit errors that can be corrected. That this ECC is powerful is well enough proven by things like CDs and DVDs. Otherwise you'd hear your music clicking and popping, movies being full of block errors, your cheap ass DVI cable shipped with your graphics card creating transient pixel errors, etc blah blah.

Right. Sure. One machine makes assumptions about what the other machine was sending, but you say it's perfect in the end.

Seriously, from _you_ I'd expect more common sense. How much data errors are you witnessing while operating your computer? Considering that EM overloaded computer case of yours? Virtually none, while said devices probably shovels more data around a second on multiple datapaths than a silly HDMI cable does in an hour? None of which underwent Monster Cable treatment?

--edit: And since we're at it. Here's how a power cable costing a few hundred bucks looks on the inside:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/my-cat-t...wer-3-a-293165/

Note how the delicate use of garden hose improves the sound (which is what's advertised on this POWER CABLE).

Edited by Tom Servo
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ATLien_0

well since most here wont fall for the trap, would any of you all ever interject and tell a sales associate that they are wrong and that the cheap cable will do just fine?

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shakey_snake
That's great - it's a link. And I know about scientific method (thanks).

It doesn't answer my question - so I'll repeat the question.

when a test is trying to define the subjective perception of something, how can it ever objectively prove the difference between any two things...?

You are asking two different things.

Blind and double blind ABX tests do not try to "define subjective perception", they attempt to make quantitative discoveries about the object (aka objective claims) (i.e. "is there at least one or are there zero differences between two samples").

If you are asking, "How do [double] blind tests take subjective perceptions and compute them into objective claims?" then, again, I direct you towards the scientific method.

Edited by shakey_snake
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TEX4S
well since most here wont fall for the trap, would any of you all ever interject and tell a sales associate that they are wrong and that the cheap cable will do just fine?

I have to say it depends.

If the people (customer) seem decent enough - or if it is a female (mom) and is kinda confused and the person is taking advantage of that - YES I will interject.

If the person (customer) is kinda "going along" with the crap the salesperson is shoving I wont say anything -

It depends on the store as well - Fry's is notorious for having clueless staff - if a salesperson is telling a customer something that is a blatant lie - YES I will jump in and tell the person the truth - if a customer has a question that salesperson cant answer - I will answer for them.

I pull a Robin Hood in stores - if the customer seems to be needing help - I will help - if the person seems like a prick - then I will let them get taken for a ride.

Fry's mantra:

The only people they treat worse than their employees are their customers. Unknown

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Glowstick
Blind and double blind ABX tests do not try to "define subjective perception", they attempt to make quantitative discoveries about the object (aka objective claims) (i.e. "is there at least one or are there zero differences between two samples").

You shouldn't discuss ABX testing with audio-/videophiles. The last time some audiophile forum subgroup agreed to ABX a coathanger against their magic cables, they've failed. This led to blanket bans on discussing that method on that forum. So much for that.

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+Audioboxer

This topic has apparently turned into a sea of Monster cable owners desperately trying to tell everyone their cables make their HD picture better :laugh:

Peace out guys, I'm gonna watch The Dark Night BD on a ?4 cable off ebay, shame I'll miss out on some detail:((;))

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shakey_snake
You shouldn't discuss ABX testing with audio-/videophiles. The last time some audiophile forum subgroup agreed to ABX a coathanger against their magic cables, they've failed. This led to blanket bans on discussing that method on that forum. So much for that.
Audiophiles are idiots with too much money.

.fahim is just a guy confused about what a blind test can prove. He may also be an audiophile, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, right now. ;)

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+Fahim S.
Audiophiles are idiots with too much money.

.fahim is just a guy confused about what a blind test can prove. He may also be an audiophile, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, right now. ;)

:)

I am an audiophile, but not one that owns a single Monster cable!

I have chosen a cheaper cable over an expensive one in the past based upon my perception of the value - I won't make a blanket statement in either direction - I just believe what my eyes and ears tell me over whatever 'science' that anyone else lays down.

This topic has apparently turned into a sea of Monster cable owners desperately trying to tell everyone their cables make their HD picture better :laugh:

Peace out guys, I'm gonna watch The Dark Night BD on a ?4 cable off ebay, shame I'll miss out on some detail:((;))

If you are happy to do that - then kudos to you, afterall you should buy something which is good enough for you and whatever anyone else thinks is really quite irrelevant. I just need you to accept that it is a two way street.

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+Audioboxer
If you are happy to do that - then kudos to you, afterall you should buy something which is good enough for you and whatever anyone else thinks is really quite irrelevant. I just need you to accept that it is a two way street.

Yeah I know it's a two way street, one of spending a relatively low amount of money to get to the end, and the other spending a lot of money to get to the end.

Your choice!

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+Fahim S.
Yeah I know it's a two way street, one of spending a relatively low amount of money to get to the end, and the other spending a lot of money to get to the end.

Your choice!

I have to be honest and say I didn't expect the arrogance I got in your answer. Like I said - if that's what you think then more power to you - just don't expect me to say you are right because I don't believe you are.

The two way street is simple:

1) You get as good a signal no matter what cable you use

vs

2) You can get a better signal if you are more discerning about your choice in cable (price doesn't really come into it).

You obviously subscribe to view 1, I to view 2. There is little or nothing that you could do to convince me that you are right, and I think opposite is also true.

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Joel
Seriously, from _you_ I'd expect more common sense. How much data errors are you witnessing while operating your computer?

Have you ever seen a digital input report how many errors PER SECOND it's dealing with when playing a CD?

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Coldgunner

Bigger question is...

How can you tell the apparent improved signal when watching???

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+Audioboxer
I have to be honest and say I didn't expect the arrogance I got in your answer. Like I said - if that's what you think then more power to you - just don't expect me to say you are right because I don't believe you are.

The two way street is simple:

1) You get as good a signal no matter what cable you use

vs

2) You can get a better signal if you are more discerning about your choice in cable (price doesn't really come into it).

You obviously subscribe to view 1, I to view 2. There is little or nothing that you could do to convince me that you are right, and I think opposite is also true.

I don't expect you to say I'm right, everyone's entitled to their own opinion?

If you want to spend 3/5/10x as much as me, be my guest :)

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Joel
No, measures like interpolation come later, after error correction has failed and the device is still left with invalid data.

That's not silence then, is it? If you don't know what it does, stop saying it doesn't matter.

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+Audioboxer
Bigger question is...

How can you tell the apparent improved signal when watching???

I heard your wallet whispers at you in your sleep :shiftyninja:

joke

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+jamesyfx

We have a vision expert where I work and he says the idea that HDMI cables are all the same quality because it's a digital signal is - in his own words - crap.

I used to believe that all HDMI cables were the same but now I'm not so sure.

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Joel
Bigger question is...

How can you tell the apparent improved signal when watching???

That's why I said that while Monster may be expensive, NOT checking out other cables just because you're afraid of the Monster trap is not doing you any favours. To me, my current setup may not require more. But if I ever bought the absolute best of everything and decided to see if I could see the difference between $10 and $100, I may see a difference (or hear one, if I'm using the HDMI to receive my audio). I'm not saying I buy Monster; I don't. But the automatic flip side when someone mentions cables around here is that it makes absolutely no difference, and that is false.

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+Fahim S.
I don't expect you to say I'm right, everyone's entitled to their own opinion?

If you want to spend 3/5/10x as much as me, be my guest :)

Which means that you believe that all $10 cables are created equal - when I don't think they are.

Like I said, price doesn't have anything to do with it.

I believe that cable a (costing ?9) can be better than cable b (costing ?100) which in turn can be better than cable c (also costing ?10).

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+Audioboxer
That's why I said that while Monster may be expensive, NOT checking out other cables just because you're afraid of the Monster trap is not doing you any favours. To me, my current setup may not require more. But if I ever bought the absolute best of everything and decided to see if I could see the difference between $10 and $100, I may see a difference (or hear one, if I'm using the HDMI to receive my audio). I'm not saying I buy Monster; I don't. But the automatic flip side when someone mentions cables around here is that it makes absolutely no difference, and that is false.

So you've not done any tests, yet you know the outcome? :blink:

Which means that you believe that all $10 cables are created equal - when I don't think they are.

Like I said, price doesn't have anything to do with it.

I believe that cable a (costing ?9) can be better than cable b (costing ?100) which in turn can be better than cable c (also costing ?10).

I never said they are created equally.

The more expensive may use copper imported from the Himalayas.

That means it's created differently.

The task they carry out though is exactly the same. Carry video and audio from your device to your receiver/TV.

If they both do that, then no, I don't need some exotic cable to do so.

Where you're trying to create your argument is from quality, which you tie to manufacturing costs, but sorry there is no evidence anywhere other than a Monster conference showing real world results of a cheap HDMI cable picture/audio quality being inferior.

I would of thought if all these cheap cables were inferior, that half the web would be full of all these comparisons showing how badly we're missing out in quali:whistle:le:

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Joel
I noticed you have seen both my music collection, receiver/amplifier and Speaker setup since you are so knowledgeable about it...

except my Dali speakers are hardly classified as PC speakers, and neither is the rest of my setup.

maybe you should assume less. because if you thought you aimed that at me, you missd the target on every single point.

I actually wasn't aiming it at anyone in particular. In general, my description would be an accurate one for this forum.

So you've not done any tests, yet you know the outcome? :blink:

On my equipment? No, I haven't done any. It would be a wasted test, as I don't think I have the setup to warrant it.

You're missing my point; people here are making a blanket statement about digital signals and cables that are not true. All I have ever said is that any cable is not the same as any other cable.

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hdood
That's not silence then, is it? If you don't know what it does, stop saying it doesn't matter.

What?

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+Fahim S.
I never said they are created equally.

The more expensive may use copper imported from the Himalayas.

That means it's created differently.

The task they carry out though is exactly the same. Carry video and audio from your device to your receiver/TV.

If they both do that, then no, I don't need some exotic cable to do so.

I agree that they are functionally identical. Created equally is a figure of speech - meaning that they are the same in terms of function and quality. Function I will agree with, quality I won't.

There are better $10 cables out there and there are worse $10 cables out there. Do you agree with that?

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