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Why does it appear that programmers don't make a lot in the UK


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I am actually a sales person by profession but have always had strong interest in IT, designed websites through HTML (In notepad) from the age of 11 just for fun.

I have never really considered web design a full time career and have also learnt the basics of JAVA, PHP, C++ and VB.

Now I am no skilled coder, or designer of websites for that matter, because I have never dedicated my self to doing it for a job, so I thought to my self, wouldn't I love to be paid for my hobby.

And,

After some research I was really disheartend by the earning potential, sales offers me anythin from 20K basic to 200K with commissions for the type of sales I am skilled at (not that I earn anything near that, well not yet anyway, maybe one day *keep dreaming*)

Basically, my current earnings are more than reasonable, but sales is sales, it's exciting getting people to take on your equipment and great fun, but not my true passion in life.

So, am I been misled by the search engines out there, is there a profitable market for coding?

I was recently considering getting some official qualifications for the CV, but now it looks like it may not be worth while.

It looks as if plumber, or electrician earns more money, I would hardly consider that a more professional career..

These are just personal thoughts, and curious issues on my mind, no intending to hurt any one if i come across harsh

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Woah, I hope it's not as bad as you make out :/

I'm just at university doing a software engineering degree :p

They told us that some software engineers/programmers can get up to ?50,000 a year.

I don't know if you need a first class honours degree for that or not though.

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With programming, its all about experience in my opinion.

When you get your first programming job, you'll be at the bottom, and then work your way up.

I'd much rather be an electrician than a programmer, despite the fact im currently doing a comp sci degree. :wacko:

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Some areas have a natural shortage of developers and so they tend to command a higher salary. The higher up the "food chain" you go, the higher the salary you can expect to receive. For example, I develop in SQL, Access, VB, and I'm fairly junior compared to the Java developers etc. Although I'm slowly working my way up there.

Just don't expect to get ?30K if you just code in HTML. You need a variety.. Flash is good. CSS is essential, as is ASP and / or PHP, but if you go for the real high-level stuff like Java, C#, and others, you'll get a better package.

Oh, and it also depends where you're located. I could get 2 or 3 times my current salary if I moved to London. But I'm not in this for the cash lol

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No question, successful salesmen in good companies with good products earn a whole heap of cash; far more than any techy. That great income is almost all commission, so if you've got a poor product to sell, or a poor incentive scheme, or bad management, you'll earn f all and get fired very quickly.

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It's all relative. Sure, you could get ?200k as a salesman, but its highly unlikely. Most of that is commision based, so unless you're lucky enough to be selling super expensive products, or are very good at your job, you'll get nowhere near.

As a programmer, you're on a fixed salary (or a contract rate), and it depends on experience. You're not likely to burn out after 5 years of 80 hour weeks hitting sales targets. As a web devloper (I can't comment on other types of development), rates for a mid-high end developer are about ?36-45k (higher in London), although if you go contract, or go higher to a project manager or director of development, there's no reason why you can't hit the ?200,000 range eventually. I bet you have as much chance of hitting the 200k range in either job. Only the best at both professions will get to that point.

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I have been a sales man for 6 years now, and make very good money for what I do, and yes mainly commission based.

But was having a bit of a dilema on whether to continue this profession or learn coding full time and do this.

I live near london, and actually got offered a job doing Java which was a relatively nice salary but required me going to live in kuwait, so salary was even better, tax free!

Problem is, I have basic understanding on Java, and they need a senior programmer.

It was this that started this thread,

I think I may continue in sales and continue learning programming in the evening, I am sure I can start to find some courses for the evening to touch up and qualify my skills.

BTW, I am a money hungry guy, 40-50k doesn't sound that great for me for when I have a wife and kids, I guess this is the sales man training coming through!

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Plus, in the UK, you'll automatically earn more by having a degree under your belt, regardless of the degree.

Also, wow, you lot are complaining about 50k a year? Some people need to eat some humble pie.

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Automatically earn more for having a degree is incorrect, you have a better chance of securing a job, but experience will always outway a degree.

Think of it from an employers view, they don't want to pay extra just because you went and learnt something unrelated, but you may get the job if you have experience in the field, the securing factor could be because you had a degree, but not automatically going to pay more.

Btw, it was me who mentioned the 50K and it wasn't a complaint, but it doesn't sound that appealing to have a nice lifestyle while maintaining a house, wife, and kids.

Some people are just hungrier than others for cash flow, I just so happen to be hungry to have a well paid job, 50K is great, if your single, or your S/O has a job too, not so great when your maintaining your life with a mortgage, kids, and possibly a wife who would rather work less hours to look after the family (all depends what your situation brings)

The Tjalian, do you mind i ask how old you are?

Quick Reply,

Unfortunately it is the sales guys who reap all the profits when the majority of the hard work has been put down on the original coding force, guess it's the same if you compare it with the building trade, you got the builders, then you have the sales team selling it.

I am a sales man and have to work incredably hard, it's not as easy as some make it sound. However you look at my original post and I would rather be doing programming just want a wage to justify it.

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'Generic' progammers, ie, people who can program in common languages are a penny a dozen. Why would they pay you ?30k when they could pay someone else ?20? Specialised programmers, who perhaps specialise in lesser known languages or specific areas of the industry - such as real time systems are harder to come by and are naturally paid more. Being the monkey who types code all day is never going to earn you massive money. You've got to hit management for that really. The people who manage the project from consultancy, design, coding, documenting and testing are the ones who earn the most - a lot of those people are graduates or people who have simply worked their way up from the bottom of the food chain in a number of years.

Also, bare in mind that mosgoodi> companies will bring you up to scratch on the languages they require, rather than expect you to know them already. So going out and learning some obscure programming language in the hope that a company will be willing to pay big bucks for your skills isn't the most practical way to do things. Of course, if you're freelancing and aren't part of an in-house development team, it is up to you to learn the languages that are required for your type of work.

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Automatically earn more for having a degree is incorrect, you have a better chance of securing a job, but experience will always outway a degree.

Think of it from an employers view, they don't want to pay extra just because you went and learnt something unrelated, but you may get the job if you have experience in the field, the securing factor could be because you had a degree, but not automatically going to pay more.

Btw, it was me who mentioned the 50K and it wasn't a complaint, but it doesn't sound that appealing to have a nice lifestyle while maintaining a house, wife, and kids.

Some people are just hungrier than others for cash flow, I just so happen to be hungry to have a well paid job, 50K is great, if your single, or your S/O has a job too, not so great when your maintaining your life with a mortgage, kids, and possibly a wife who would rather work less hours to look after the family (all depends what your situation brings)

The Tjalian, do you mind i ask how old you are?

21 years old.

First of all, I know it wasn't you who wasn't complaining, but a lot of people seem to be complaining at only (only?) earning 50k.

Currently, our total financial income only comes in at under a quarter of 50k (this is with like 4 jobs). This is a mum, with 2 children (me included). We rent a council house, and we don't always enjoy the luxuries such as a holiday every year or getting the latest games all the time or whatever. So, earning 50k a year to me seems like a hello of a lot more then what it appears to seem to everybody else. If it's possible to maintain living at that salary, it's more then possible to maintain living with nearly 4 times that amount. Now do you see where I am coming from? Do you see why I am not complaining?

My profession is also programming (games dev, to be precise), by the way.

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21 years old.

First of all, I know it wasn't you who wasn't complaining, but a lot of people seem to be complaining at only (only?) earning 50k.

Currently, our total financial income only comes in at under a quarter of 50k (this is with like 4 jobs). This is a mum, with 2 children (me included). We rent a council house, and we don't always enjoy the luxuries such as a holiday every year or getting the latest games all the time or whatever. So, earning 50k a year to me seems like a hello of a lot more then what it appears to seem to everybody else. If it's possible to maintain living at that salary, it's more then possible to maintain living with nearly 4 times that amount. Now do you see where I am coming from? Do you see why I am not complaining?

My profession is also programming (games dev, to be precise), by the way.

Some people don't just want to get by. Some people want that 911 Turbo sat on the Driveway. It would more than likely be possible earning 50k in the North of England. London? No chance.

?50k is probably not[bthat>[/b]> much to people living down in the South, whereas I would hazard a guess that 50k brings a lot more luxuries to the table up North.

EDIT - I don't mean it as ?50k being nothing, but it was there for emphasis of the north/south comparsion.

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Some people don't just want to get by. Some people want that 911 Turbo sat on the Driveway. It would more than likely be possible earning 50k in the North of England. London? No chance.

?50k is probably not[bthat>[/b]> much to people living down in the South, whereas I would hazard a guess that 50k brings a lot more luxuries to the table up North.

EDIT - I don't mean it as ?50k being nothing, but it was there for emphasis of the north/south comparsion.

But I am from the south, just a lower class part of it.

I see what you mean though. I guess I just don't crave that 911 Turbo on the driveway, I just crave a lifestyle where I can live comfortably in a nice house of my own. ?50k/year, methinks, will cover that.

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My personal experience has found that you should never enter a job / field purely for financial gain, you'll never be the best at it and you'll never be happy.

I think your original post confirms this.

Pick something you enjoy love, be it making Bacon sandwiches or creating scalable Web Services. You'll quickly become the best in your cafe, office, or company and reap the associated awards.

I'd much rather, and have, take a cut in my income and be eager to get to work the next day, than be paid more and dread leaving home.

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My personal experience has found that you should never enter a job / field purely for financial gain, you'll never be the best at it and you'll never be happy.

I think your original post confirms this.

Pick something you enjoy love, be it making Bacon sandwiches or creating scalable Web Services. You'll quickly become the best in your cafe, office, or company and reap the associated awards.

I'd much rather, and have, take a cut in my income and be eager to get to work the next day, than be paid more and dread leaving home.

Truer words never spoken. If you have to do something for years on end, you may as well enjoy it.

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Point of interest: the Developer of Enigmo claimed $5m in revenue from iPhone/iPod game sales in 3 months.

While he's been running a successful game shop for nearly as long as Apple has been selling macs it wasn't until

the iPhone/iPod application store that obscene money started rolling in, and he's doing it all with half-a-dozen staff[1].

Same story with Delicious Monster: from 3 guys writing code in Starbucks because it was cheaper than renting an

office to 6-figure incomes in a few months[2]. Of course the founders of Google are an extreme example: from

handful of college kids to billionaires in a few years.

While it's certainly possible to earn a metric truckload of money writing code you're probably not going to see that

working for somebody else.

[1]Time

[2]Wired

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Round here, cheapest house you'll find for a 1 bed tiny flat in not the nicest place in the world is ?130,000 - Mortgages companies want ?13,000 deposit Minimum, ideally a ?26,000 deposit.

And to lend that, they'll expect you to be on ?30,000 for that.

Take a ?30,000 income after tax looking at around ?1,800 quid monthly - you'll be lucky to have repayments sub ?800 at that rate, leaving you with ?1,000 for food, shopping, clothes, luxuries etc.

add a family on top and your looking at a much biger house, with greater expense.

I guess people really do see some coders as just monkeys, sad to think really as I have always felt this was quiet a skiled profession!

Well if I make it big i'll be sure to pay my code:) well :)

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you have to remember that if you were to go work in a company as a web designer your wage is just one part of the total cost of employing you. the employer also has to factor in your desk and the building it's in. their insurance and national insurance obligations, sick/holiday pay etc. that all lowers the headline figure they actually pay you.

if you go out on your own you have the potential to earn more money and have a bit more freedom in your life (no 9-5 crap. more like 12-12 lol but you can work less some days or do other stuff at more convenient times) but you won't have the luxury of sick pay for example. i have 2 friends who are web designers. one in south of england and one in norway. they both make very decent livings from being self employed and they pick the jobs they want to do and the ones they don't. another luxury you probably don't get working for a company.

in northern ireland, people coming out of university with a bit of a personal portfolio will be lucky to get more than ?20k as a web designer. and the employer will want knowledge of stuff like PHP/ASP/JS or flash along with the usual HTML/CSS skills. it's not really a big money career. after a few years experience and with knowledge of more stuff like mysql or java you might command ?30k.

for more "pure" programming careers here, i've found people who do C++, c#, java etc will get ?20-30k a year. "Senior" roles are almost always ?30-40k. it's not mega money working for someone else.

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Considering ?50k is about double the average wage, I would say it is much.

But being a simple code monkey is never gonna earn a lot.

it depends where you live.

?50k might be twice the average wage but in london it'll be worth a lot less than in northern ireland for example.

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Yep and I live next to the M25, pretty harsh!

I also wanted the option of doing websites self employed, when i here of friends/familys who have paid some one else to do the site I always look at it and think, jesus it's not worth that!

Interesting...

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