Emn1ty Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 (edited) Peripheral Possibilites: A look into XBox 360 PeripheralsMany gamers, especially those who own a X-Box 360, may have very much come to know and love the wonderful number of add-ons available through Microsoft. The wonderfully overpriced network adapter, the now defunct and discontinued HD-DVD drive, the quirky face plates and everything else few and far between. The real question here isn?t a question of ?why not? in this situation but ?Why would Microsoft actually give a damn about its consumer with the large quantities of cash it already has??. I will give you my theory about this plan they would be morons not to have unless they plan on releasing the wonderfully awesome X-Box 720 in 2011. More here: http://geeksquared.wordpress.com/2009/01/1...-possibilities/ I think Microsoft is in a pretty sweet position, but if the realize this or not is something I can't answer. What do you guys think? Edited January 18, 2009 by Emn1ty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted January 18, 2009 Subscriber² Share Posted January 18, 2009 Most current peripherals are made defunct with a next generation for the purpose of selling you new peripherals that are "updated" or "superior". Happens every time, and that's the wise move for the company, as it reigns them in profit. Not exclusive to consoles, Apples ipod/iphone are very good examples of how generations of products/accessories become defunct and may have to be re-bought when a new model is released (talking completely new model, not the "slim" or slightly different revisions). The slight revisions to the ipod/iphone will keep compatibility 99% of the time, like a slim 360 would. I'm talking next proper console. Proprietary peripherals are one of the biggest money makers, MS are not going to ditch that revenue stream with the next Xbox by letting you use everything you bought for your 360. Contrary to what you said, it wouldn't really put them in a sweet position (only us). If they go with trends they'll release a powerful next-gen console (instead of the Wii last-gen hardware approach), and so they'll kick off with manufacturing/design losses. Not having any peripherals to sell will increase the time it takes to reach break even point/when they start earning profit on the console. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emn1ty Posted January 18, 2009 Author Share Posted January 18, 2009 Most current peripherals are made defunct with a next generation for the purpose of selling you new peripherals that are "updated" or "superior".Happens every time, and that's the wise move for the company, as it reigns them in profit. Not exclusive to consoles, Apples ipod/iphone are very good examples of how generations of products/accessories become defunct and may have to be re-bought. Proprietary peripherals are one of the biggest money makers, MS are not going to ditch that revenue stream in the next Xbox by letting you use everything you bought for your 360. Contrary to what you said, it wouldn't really put them in a sweet position (only us). If they go with trends they'll release a powerful next-gen console (instead of the Wii low power hardware), and so they'll kick off with manufacturing/design losses. Not having any peripherals to sell will increase the time it takes to reach break even point/when they start earning profit on the console. You are forgetting the second half. I am may be talking about re-use but then I am also talking about upgrading those re-usable parts independently from the console like they already have been with the HDD's. So even if the console didn't launch with its own list of peripherals new ones could still be made and profited on. My point here is that making the console as future proof as possible is what Microsoft has done. It may not happen the way I have said it will, but that fact is still there. The X-Box 360 and the peripherals area all future proof so long as USB stays the standard for device connection aside from the Hard Drive connector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted January 18, 2009 Subscriber² Share Posted January 18, 2009 You are forgetting the second half. I am may be talking about re-use but then I am also talking about upgrading those re-usable parts independently from the console like they already have been with the HDD's. So even if the console didn't launch with its own list of peripherals new ones could still be made and profited on. My point here is that making the console as future proof as possible is what Microsoft has done. It may not happen the way I have said it will, but that fact is still there. The X-Box 360 and the peripherals area all future proof so long as USB stays the standard for device connection aside from the Hard Drive connector. Peripherals are all good for the 360, but as I said above if you're expecting to use all, or even most of them with the next Xbox IMO you'll be sorely disappointed. You might find things like Guitar Hero/Rock Band and other 3rd party devices getting future console compatibility, but all the 1st party stuff will no doubt go through the physical changes either in design, or through connections ensuring you need to buy the updated models. Controllers usually get physical changes, and then it's somewhat expected the next xbox might have motion controlling added/more buttons or some other functionality. Ensuring your 360 controllers are only good for the 360/360 games. As for HDDs I can see MS going open standard next generation allowing you to use what you want anyway. Well at least I want them to and think it will happen. There's just too much money to make from peripherals, and in some cases just genuine changes/improvements make old addons defunct. All 360 addons should work with every 360 model from now on (you would expect that but?), the only slight question raised is what happens to the hdd addons when/if MS makes a slim 360? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emn1ty Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Peripherals are all good for the 360, but as I said above if you're expecting to use all, or even most of them with the next Xbox IMO you'll be sorely disappointed. 1. USB isn't going anwhere anytime soon so I could safely assume that even the controllers should work on the next 360 considering they use the same wireless hookups, and the camera wouldn't be that hard. 2. I am not assuming anything in this article, just exploring the possibilities. You might find things like Guitar Hero/Rock Band and other 3rd party devices getting future console compatibility, but all the 1st party stuff will no doubt go through the physical changes either in design, or through connections ensuring you need to buy the updated models. I doubt Microsoft will ditch USB connectivity, probably only upgrade to USB 3.0 which most likely will support USB 2.0. The only other thing is what you said about design, which does not conflict with my point about "improving things independently of the console". They could very well design a new web-cam but I doubt that it wouldn't work on the first 360 unless they used a non-USB camera (which I highly doubt). Controllers usually get physical changes, and then it's somewhat expected the next xbox might have motion controlling added/more buttons or some other functionality. Ensuring your 360 controllers are only good for the 360/360 games. But developers think ahead and make their games work for both. PS3 is the perfect example when you see games like Lego: Indiana Jones and Lego Batman utilizing both. Not to mention the only controller that changed in any significant way this generation was the Nintendo controller. The PS3 remote is identical, and the 360 remote only changes the position and shape of two buttons. There's just too much money to make from peripherals, and in some cases just genuine changes/improvements make old addons defunct. There is a profit, but that doesn't mean you have to kill B/C for hardware in order to make money. Look at Sony, they tried it with games. All 360 addons should work with every 360 model from now on (you would expect that but?), the only slight question raised is what happens to the hdd addons when/if MS makes a slim 360? Re-orienting the hard drive and mounting it somewhere else IS possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted January 19, 2009 Subscriber² Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) I understand Emn1ty, but IMO you're trying to push logic upon something that isn't voided due to logic, it's voided due to companies wanting to earn money. There's no doubt all the generations of some of the iPod accessories could all easily work with future hardware, but Apple kept changing port locations/port sizes/types of connections and what not pretty much every generation. 1st party accessories have always been a goldmine for console creators, voiding that by making all your last-gen hardware viable to be used WITH next-gen hardware/games will kill part of your potential revenue. There's going to be some element of BC with certain addons, especially as I said above (I'd hope anyway) with things like RB/GH. Things like your HDD addon, if say MS go proprietary again next-gen, you can bet will come in a new casing, a casing that only fits the next Xbox. Without starting another argument, as I said above I think the next xbox will have an open source hard drive source, and I think wireless will probably be internal from the get go due to nearly everything you buy nowadays having it as standard. Therefore I think the 360 addons won't even be applicable to the next xbox. That's just idle speculation though. My argument above was just for discussions sake about the approach I feel these companies have towards 1st party accessories and the revenue they generate, all examples used are speculative, but I feel the lying undertone to be correct and proven by past generations. Edited January 19, 2009 by Audioboxer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emn1ty Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 I understand Emn1ty, but IMO you're trying to push logic upon something that isn't voided due to logic, it's voided due to companies wanting to earn money.1st party accessories have always been a goldmine for console creators, voiding that by making all your last-gen hardware viable to be used WITH next-gen hardware/games will kill part of your potential revenue. Without starting another argument, as I said above I think the next xbox will have an open source hard drive source, and I think wireless will probably be internal from the get go due to nearly everything you buy nowadays having it as standard. Therefore I think the 360 addons won't even be applicable to the next xbox. My argument above was just for discussions sake about the approach I feel these companies have towards 1st party accessories and the revenue they generate. And what you aren't understand is that my exploration into this subject has not voided any of the previous practices of making new hardware for a new console. They can still do that while allowing people to choose not to. My point is that what should and always has been the driving force of the 360 sales is not add-ons but the game library. The 360's greatest profit right now is not the add-ons but the games and the online content. Microsoft should push those two areas more and improve their image and trust level with consumers by taking advantage of not only software B/C but hardware B/C as well. Anyways, we both have our differing opinions. I only posted this due to the way Microsoft has been handling things with the X-Box. They have the money to do whatever the hell they want to do with it and profit, while good, isn't really their primary concern from the hardware standpoint. The Original X-Box never really earned much of a profit either by itself. It was the games that pulled up into the positives. The same will happen with the 360. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted January 19, 2009 Subscriber² Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) Fair enough but I have to go on what you write, and I didn't read much if anything to do with software in your article, and you concluded with Even if Microsoft does announce a new X-Box in the next few years you might not need to buy anything beyond that console’s Core version if Microsoft plays their cards right. They could essentially make a newer console that is compatible with the previous hardware, making it probably the most appealing console ever! It would be a first in console history! Hell, I should sell, nay give that idea to Microsoft just to make sure it happens that way. What better way to keep your community with you than give the dedicated followers a huge reward for buying so far into the previous console generation? The best part is that it is perfectly and undeniably plausible. Which sparked my discussion of how I think that's unlikely. Depending on how this generation ends (let's not kid ourselves, there's a long way to go), MS may well go the multiple console/addons route again as it's been successful so far, but for the discussion above about hardware BC, I don't think that's likely for the reasons I gave. And FTR, MS earned no profit on the original Xbox. What will earn profits for the 360 is it will remain on the market when the next Xbox comes, and it will keep selling for years afterwards. Unlike the Xbox that was pretty much killed off before the 360 even came (which in the circumstances presented, was the option to take). Profitability in the typical console race is all about longetivity - Which is also tied to software and peripherals obviously. You need good software to keep sales up, which in return gives you longevity. And longevity gives you more hardware sales which become your area of highest profit margins as your console becomes cheap to manufacture. Nintendo the exception this generation, but that's a lot to do with them launching with "last-generation" hardware. Edited January 19, 2009 by Audioboxer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emn1ty Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 The words "IF" and "COULD" spring up from those sentences. Probably should have italicized them for emphasis. Other than that I can settle this little discussion with this. Profit is one thing, but developing a perfectly secure following is another. I think Microsoft could really deal a considerable death blow to Sony if they not only support BC in games while Sony chose not to, but did it for the hardware as well. if anything the Hard Drive at least. What they do and do-not carry over from one console to the next is not mine to decide, but they are definitely setup to so with any of the devices they have layed out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted January 19, 2009 Subscriber² Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) Well they ain't dealing any blows with the hard drive, the PS3 operates on a standard 2.5" OEM drive. Logically speaking the next PS console probably will as well, which means just taking the drive out your PS3 and popping it in your PS4. Remember, MS are the ones who've made add-ons more popular this generation Emn1ty, Sony tend to go the "all in one route", which means they don't really have to ponder the question of hardware BC like MS could. I mean, there's not really any addons for the PS3 you could even consider using on the PS4 :/ Unless we start going into headsets/cameras, but MS have them as well. Even then the PS3 supports any Bluetooth headset, you'd expect the PS4 to as well. Where as I believe MS have gone the route of proprietary again with headsets. With pushes towards open source/open standards becoming bigger from consumers I think MS' hand will be forced in that direction which is why I said above, I think an OEM hard drive will be usable in the next Xbox. Same with headsets. Although I actually think the 360 may well support any USB headset? (just not any wireless ones outside of the official). If anything as consumers that's what we want, open standards where possible. Open standards = true BC like I just proved above with swapping your PS3 hard drive into your PS4, or using your Bluetooth headset you've had for years. Edited January 19, 2009 by Audioboxer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emn1ty Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Remember, MS are the ones who've made add-ons more popular this generation Emn1ty, Sony tend to go the "all in one route", which means they don't really have to ponder the question of hardware BC like MS could. I mean, there's not really any addons for the PS3 you could even consider using on the PS4 :/ Unless we start going into headsets/cameras, but MS have them as well. My basis for Microsoft's add-on BC is out of their main slogan for choice on the user level. Sony has pioneered the idea of forcing you to upgrade and buy things you don't always need. It is convenient but not considerate. Of course Sony just kills me with its arrogance anyways, feeding the world extremely BS excuses like "buying potential" or "we are still in early adoption phase". And the only reason the PS3 even needs swappable drives is because of the number of downloads and installs the thing will have to handle when you end up having to re-buy your PS2 library from the PSN if you want to play them on the PS3 (that or shell out $129 for PS2 unless you still have your old one) and install many of the games to improve loading times. The 360 doesn't require a huge drive which is why it won't need a swappable one aside from the drive it already has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted January 19, 2009 Subscriber² Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) Emn1ty mate, don't go crapping on your own topic with unnecessary Sony/PS3 hating now - This is about addons and their future worth :/ And sorry I added a lot more to my post than you quoted, I do that sometimes. Hit reply before I'm really finished with things :p I think you should find my open source/standards point interesting, as it really does show hardware BC in action. I never thought about it earlier, but now I do think that's the future of having our consoles sharing hardware usable over generations. If standards are open, there's less proprietary addons which means global support for 3rd party devices. Aka, a wireless headset is a wireless headset, it will work with the 1st generation/2nd generation/3rd generation consoles, ect - As opposed to a company changing a connection/frequency/layout or something else that blocks a proprietary wireless headset from generation 1 working in generation 2 just to get you to splash out on a new headset. Or with the PS3, the generic OEM hard drive that's supported, as I said above will probably be allowed to be taken out the PS3 and put in the PS4. Meaning anyone like myself that splashed out on a 320GB drive can keep using that drive. Sort of like how the PC world works, nothing is proprietary and it all works together regardless of brand/age/make. That's the future I can see and want anyway. MS/Sony can still sell their 1st party controllers and offer headsets as well as options to the open 3rd party standards - Then you can have addons like web cameras and what not. Edited January 19, 2009 by Audioboxer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emn1ty Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Sort of like how the PC world works, nothing is proprietary and it all works together regardless of brand/age/make. And this is what the console industry spawned out of. Consoles are great because compatibility and optimization are always assured. While a hard-drive may be something that will never change, the speed and type can and therefore cause problems. A game built for a 7200rpm drive from the ground up won't work on a 10,000rpm drive properly. If the console industry becomes anything like the PC industry in how hardware is interchangeable, it will cease to be the console industry all-together. The PC industry needs to upgrade so fast only because you cannot optimize for a random assortment of hardware, so upgrades to more powerful hardware are needed sooner. Consoles on the other hand can continually hone and squeeze every bit of life out of their hardware for several years because it isn't constantly changing from user to user and this is why console games rival PC games on older hardware. But this is aside the point of this topic anyways. Consoles are not supposed to be any more than consoles, which is the mistake Sony made with the PS3. They are to be a gaming machine first and a media device second, not the other way around. This is why making them with swappable drives and interchangeables that are not proprietary would be stupid. Media PC's already have that covered, are cheaper in the long run, and perform that role better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted January 19, 2009 Subscriber² Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) You're going overboard a bit Emn1ty. I'm talking about open source hard drives, headsets, USB readers, keyboards, photo readers, printers even, ect. Things that are plug n play because they all adhere to similar standards. You don't need drivers or to worry about anything, you just plug them in and off you go. Not graphics cards/cpu/sound cards. The main meat of the consoles would still be what MS/Sony put in them, it's the addons and peripherals that can go open source/standard. And drive speed isn't an issue, 5400RPM is the standard speed used in a PS3/360, anything higher will result in absolutely minor differences, if any. There's tests online. I 100% approve of Sony supporting an OEM hard drive, and find it crazy if anyone says going proprietary is a better idea. I paid ?55 for a 320GB for my PS3. The manual itself even tells you you can upgrade the drive and Sony fully approve of it. That sort of open source/standard support only benefits us giving us cheap options and allows hardware to be BC, the thing you seemingly created your blog article around. As long as things stay proprietary though, you're at the mercy of the creators for support going forward. Also I don't know why you're calling out Sony for making the PS3 a media entertainment device, MS have done exactly the same with the 360 and even supported HD-DVD at one point. Both have video stores, play DVD movies, play HD movies (360 did) and the 360 has things like Netflix. The 360 even has the sought after hard drive installs since NXE, something that gobbles space but is very useful. Consoles have evolved into such devices, no one is to blame and it only benefits the consumer who gets better bang for their buck. Even the Wii has a video channel on the way. It is not just all about games nowadays, that is a fact. You may not like any of the extra functionality, but it broadens the user base and attracts many other people on board. Edited January 19, 2009 by Audioboxer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookas Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I agree with you 100% AB. It just kills me that I can use a 360 camera on the PS3 but can't use the PS3 camera on the 360. I hate that I have to buy MS's overpriced HDD (or be forced to use work-arounds). Peripherals should be universal at this point in the game. That's one thing that Sony did right this time around. I can understand why MS wants to be careful about that sort of thing, but I hate how closed the system is when compared to the PS3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad. Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Peripherals should be universal at this point in the game. That's one thing that Sony did right this time around. I can understand why MS wants to be careful about that sort of thing, but I hate how closed the system is when compared to the PS3. I'm quite confused here, you say that the 360 system is ''closed'' when compared to the PS3 however the way I see it is: -You can use 360 webcam with PC (not vice versa) -You cannot use Playstation eye with PC without some sort of work around -You can use any usb keyboard with 360 -You can use any usb/bluetooth keyboard with PS3 -You can use a 360 controller on a PC -You cannot use a PS3 controller on a PC -You cannot use any hard drive with the 360 unless of a work around (;)) -You can use any hard drive (2.5") for the PS3 So what do you mean in you last post? Explain what you mean by universal too, I'm probably just getting the wrong end of the stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emn1ty Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Not graphics cards/cpu/sound cards. The main meat of the consoles would still be what MS/Sony put in them, it's the addons and peripherals that can go open source/standard. This would still convolute the console with hundreds of different peripheral standards. Web cams with different resolutions, keyboards with different controls (like the media and/or gaming keyboards). If they try to make these things compatible with anything then they have to worry about everything. It isn't so easy as just making them universal. Sometimes developers get a little too creative with their hardware and having to worry about all this stuff would just bog down the console. I 100% approve of Sony supporting an OEM hard drive, and find it crazy if anyone says going proprietary is a better idea. I paid ?55 for a 320GB for my PS3. The manual itself even tells you you can upgrade the drive and Sony fully approve of it. My point is the user shouldn't have to upgrade the console that much in the first place. A console doesn't need a 320GB hard drive at the user level. It is for game saves, not saving files. That sort of open source/standard support only benefits us giving us cheap options and allows hardware to be BC, the thing you seemingly created your blog article around. As long as things stay proprietary though, you're at the mercy of the creators for support going forward. No, it benefits the super-user, not the average user. Having one thing span across so many devices can confuse people. Ever wonder why do-it-all remotes never really caught on? Because people enjoy having a separate control for each device. Only a small number of people aren't intimidated by a huge amount of options one thing. Also I don't know why you're calling out Sony for making the PS3 a media entertainment device, MS have done exactly the same with the 360 and even supported HD-DVD at one point. Both have video stores, play DVD movies, play HD movies (360 did) and the 360 has things like Netflix. The 360 even has the sought after hard drive installs since NXE, something that gobbles space but is very useful. Microsoft pushed the gaming aspect way over the media center ability. How many commercials do you see advertising the Netflix option as apposed to games? What about the ability to use media center? Almost none. Most of the time the X-Box is advertising itself along with a game and or only advertising the game. With the PS3 it is different, it is mostly about the Blu-Ray and the amazing hardware it packs. They talk about all this and rarely push the gaming aspect. Microsoft has taken the "gaming console first, media center second" mentality to hear and Sony just doesn't know what to call the PS3 anymore. And drive installs are entirely optional and all it really does is shut the drive up. The PS3 is in an entirely different situation as well as being in a PR cloud. I agree with you 100% AB. It just kills me that I can use a 360 camera on the PS3 but can't use the PS3 camera on the 360. I hate that I have to buy MS's overpriced HDD (or be forced to use work-arounds). Peripherals should be universal at this point in the game. That's one thing that Sony did right this time around. I can understand why MS wants to be careful about that sort of thing, but I hate how closed the system is when compared to the PS3. Wait, you are mad at Microsoft for making their camera work on everything and not having something made by Sony work on the X-Box? Are you kidding me? What is wrong with your mentality. Sure the stuff is overpriced, but if you have a 360 camera and it works on the PS3 and the PC then what is the problem with it? They may have forced you to buy a specific camera for the console but it is obviously not a limited device. This would be like getting mad at someone for forcing you to buy a better remote for a specific product when it is actually just plain better to begin with. Universal peripherals, as I said, convolutes the industry with hundreds of gimmicky versions of them (like the Bluetooth headsets today. The phone companies should just make their own that come with the telephone and work only with that phone making the choice far easier even if a bit limited). Of course you could argue that allowing old hardware would do the same, but then again it is still X-Box branded and hard to confuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted January 19, 2009 Subscriber² Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) This would still convolute the console with hundreds of different peripheral standards. Web cams with different resolutions, keyboards with different controls (like the media and/or gaming keyboards). If they try to make these things compatible with anything then they have to worry about everything. It isn't so easy as just making them universal. Sometimes developers get a little too creative with their hardware and having to worry about all this stuff would just bog down the console. Not really, MS still offer their 1st party addons, exactly like Sony do. Sony offer their EyeToy, their Official Headset, their Official Chatpad, ect - But they allow any 3rd party device to hookup and be used for those with the knowledge. They also allow kb/mouse support for games, but sadly outside of Unreal Tournament 3 not many devs have put the effort in to support. I wouldn't be surprised but if Red Alert 3 pops up with support. My point is the user shouldn't have to upgrade the console that much in the first place. A console doesn't need a 320GB hard drive at the user level. It is for game saves, not saving files. ? MS are the ones who've released models that are prime for upgrading - You buy a cheap core to save yourself money, then get a hard drive later. You may need wireless, you have to buy an upgrade, and so forth. As I said consoles support downloading of games, DLC, movies and TV shows, NXE supports hard drive installs, ect. 320GB might be a lot, but you can't deny many 360 owners wanted 120GB the minute NXE came out over 20GB/60GB. I bought 320GB because it cost me ?55, that's cheaper than a 120GB 360 hard drive... No, it benefits the super-user, not the average user. Having one thing span across so many devices can confuse people. Ever wonder why do-it-all remotes never really caught on? Because people enjoy having a separate control for each device. Only a small number of people aren't intimidated by a huge amount of options one thing. I can assure you average users will learn to save money. As I pointed out, Sony state in their manual any hard drive will work. Microsoft pushed the gaming aspect way over the media center ability. How many commercials do you see advertising the Netflix option as apposed to games? What about the ability to use media center? Almost none. Most of the time the X-Box is advertising itself along with a game and or only advertising the game. With the PS3 it is different, it is mostly about the Blu-Ray and the amazing hardware it packs. They talk about all this and rarely push the gaming aspect. Microsoft has taken the "gaming console first, media center second" mentality to hear and Sony just doesn't know what to call the PS3 anymore. And drive installs are entirely optional and all it really does is shut the drive up. The PS3 is in an entirely different situation as well as being in a PR cloud. So you're arguing marketing, not features. Not really interested in doing that, sorry. Wait, you are mad at Microsoft for making their camera work on everything and not having something made by Sony work on the X-Box? Are you kidding me? What is wrong with your mentality. Sure the stuff is overpriced, but if you have a 360 camera and it works on the PS3 and the PC then what is the problem with it? They may have forced you to buy a specific camera for the console but it is obviously not a limited device. This would be like getting mad at someone for forcing you to buy a better remote for a specific product when it is actually just plain better to begin with. Universal peripherals, as I said, convolutes the industry with hundreds of gimmicky versions of them (like the Bluetooth headsets today. The phone companies should just make their own that come with the telephone and work only with that phone making the choice far easier even if a bit limited).Of course you could argue that allowing old hardware would do the same, but then again it is still X-Box branded and hard to confuse. I'm not mad at anything, I'm talking about how open standards would make your dream of BC hardware a reality. Don't you see that? No ones saying remove 1st party addons, I'm saying allow support for generic items going forward so those with the knowledge can use them. It's about forcing less proprietary based solutions on people, and allowing standards to be more open. That doesn't mean you have to stop selling official based addons. I'm quite confused here, you say that the 360 system is ''closed'' when compared to the PS3 however the way I see it is:-You can use 360 webcam with PC (not vice versa) -You cannot use Playstation eye with PC without some sort of work around -You can use any usb keyboard with 360 -You can use any usb/bluetooth keyboard with PS3 -You can use a 360 controller on a PC -You cannot use a PS3 controller on a PC -You cannot use any hard drive with the 360 unless of a work around ;))) -You can use any hard drive (2.5") for the PS3 So what do you mean in you last post? Explain what you mean by universal too, I'm probably just getting the wrong end of the stick. It's a fairly closed system on a console level. Not many peripherals that aren't MS branded can be plugged into your 360 and used. The main culprit is the hard drive, but there's some other usb devices (cameras/printers/photo readers), and wireless ones such as headsets. Emn1tys blog is about hardware being BC, all I'm saying is if you're open standards on parts of your console that's pretty much going to guarantee hardware BC, where as if you're proprietary you're at the mercy of the console marker to carry on support - Which isn't always possible if you're putting hardware like the hard drive in custom made external casing. Edited January 19, 2009 by Audioboxer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emn1ty Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Just because microsoft gives you the option to have a hard drive doesn't mean you need it. The Play Station 3 NEEDS the hard drive to play games. It requires it for installs. The Hard drive on the 360 is there only for the second half, the media center. Sure it is also good for game demos but many people don't use the online capabilities to their fullest anyways. I think what you are forgetting Audio is that Microsoft's console is primarily a gaming machine and only becomes a media device if you want ti to be one. I use mine only for games and the only reason I even have the larger hard drive is for demos and game video content. That is as much of a milti-media device as I use it for. I used to have it stream from my PC but ended up just plugging in my iPod instead. While I may not be able to deny the NXE did get some people to upgrade drives, it still isn't a requirement in any way to do what the console is supposed to do - play games. That last comment wasn't for you so I won't reply to your response. And about 10%-20% of people actually read manuals, let alone electronics consumers. This is the truth since I get calls even at Target about broken electronics and how to fix them when it was just a certain step they didn't take in the manual. I think you give way too much credit to the general population's intelligence. They really are not that smart, or maybe I should say they are just extremely ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted January 19, 2009 Subscriber² Share Posted January 19, 2009 I think what you are forgetting Audio is that Microsoft's console is primarily a gaming machine and only becomes a media device if you want ti to be one. I use mine only for games and the only reason I even have the larger hard drive is for demos and game video content. That is as much of a milti-media device as I use it for. I used to have it stream from my PC but ended up just plugging in my iPod instead. While I may not be able to deny the NXE did get some people to upgrade drives, it still isn't a requirement in any way to do what the console is supposed to do - play games. Same for both consoles, they're both built upon gaming and the name Playstation/Xbox is still tied to that history. It's only a media entertainment system if you use it/buy it for that. And you're right, the PS3 needs a hard drive, but that's why it comes as standard - It's not got much to do with our discussion about BC hardware however. That last comment wasn't for you so I won't reply to your response. And about 10%-20% of people actually read manuals, let alone electronics consumers. This is the truth since I get calls even at Target about broken electronics and how to fix them when it was just a certain step they didn't take in the manual. I think you give way too much credit to the general population's intelligence. They really are not that smart, or maybe I should say they are just extremely ignorant. My point was it's publicized you can change your PS3 hard drive directly from Sony - When such official word is out, it spreads. If you happen to speak to tech support about anything related to space, they'll tell you you can upgrade it yourself. It's not some shady mod, or underground solution - Sony themselves support it. If MS supported open standards hardware, they'd tell their customers the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emn1ty Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Same for both consoles, they're both built upon gaming and the name Playstation/Xbox is still tied to that history.It's only a media entertainment system if you use it/buy it for that. And you're right, the PS3 needs a hard drive, but that's why it comes as standard - It's not got much to do with our discussion about BC hardware however. Not according to Sony. They even once said it will rival home media center PC's. Sony has, from day one, considered the PS3 a media center first and a console second. Microsoft is just the opposite. This is why the PS3 comes standard with so many little devices, is really heavy (they assume you won't be LANing with it), and why it has easily swappable drives. They didn't make it a gaming machine, and Sony knows it too. My point was it's publicized you can change your PS3 hard drive directly from Sony - When such official word is out, it spreads.If you happen to speak to tech support about anything related to space, they'll tell you you can upgrade it yourself. It's not some shady mod, or underground solution - Sony themselves support it. Tech support is not PR nor an advertisement. Most people buy a whole new computer despite a large number of people who don't knowing you can upgrade them or even build your own. But you know why they don't do these things? Because they think it is complicated or beyond them and don't want to break what they invested hundreds of dollars into. People like instant gratification and don't like to mess with things after they have purchased them, this is why little to no-one is actually going to upgrade the drive unless they know what they are doing. You are still giving the general consumer population way too much credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted January 19, 2009 Subscriber² Share Posted January 19, 2009 Not according to Sony. They even once said it will rival home media center PC's. Sony has, from day one, considered the PS3 a media center first and a console second. Microsoft is just the opposite. This is why the PS3 comes standard with so many little devices, is really heavy (they assume you won't be LANing with it), and why it has easily swappable drives. They didn't make it a gaming machine, and Sony knows it too. Yeah okay Emn1ty, it's not a gaming machine at all... Tech support is not PR nor an advertisement. Most people buy a whole new computer despite a large number of people who don't knowing you can upgrade them or even build your own. But you know why they don't do these things? Because they think it is complicated or beyond them and don't want to break what they invested hundreds of dollars into. People like instant gratification and don't like to mess with things after they have purchased them, this is why little to no-one is actually going to upgrade the drive unless they know what they are doing. You are still giving the general consumer population way too much credit. I'm sure the general public find out about the 360 addons okay, I'm sure if they were to poke around they'd find out they could change their PS3 hard drive. Here's some advertisement for you on the official blog - http://blog.us.playstation.com/2007/12/28/...-drive-upgrade/ Our discussion was about BC hardware, I dunno where it's ended up now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emn1ty Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Yeah okay Emn1ty, it's not a gaming machine at all... No, I said it is basically a sub-gaming console and mainly a media center. Sony has been advertising it as such and it has sold mostly as that. I'm sure the general public find out about the 360 addons okay, I'm sure if they were to poke around they'd find out they could change their PS3 hard drive.Our discussion was about BC hardware, I dunno where it's ended up now... You can be sure all you want but there is a huge difference between upgrading something external and upgrading something internal. The 360 add-ons are completely separate of the console, making the feeling of "breaking" it completely null and void since you just slap on the new thing without worrying about it. Even if you rip the HDD out while it is running the console just does a normal shutdown and everything is fine. I doubt you can say the same for the PS3's internal drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted January 19, 2009 Subscriber² Share Posted January 19, 2009 No, I said it is basically a sub-gaming console and mainly a media center. Sony has been advertising it as such and it has sold mostly as that. Okay Emn1ty, sure thing. You can be sure all you want but there is a huge difference between upgrading something external and upgrading something internal. The 360 add-ons are completely separate of the console, making the feeling of "breaking" it completely null and void since you just slap on the new thing without worrying about it. Even if you rip the HDD out while it is running the console just does a normal shutdown and everything is fine. I doubt you can say the same for the PS3's internal drive. Warranty is not voided, and the drive is easily fitted. You don't open the PS3 you pop open a small plastic slot at the side and the drive slides out in a tray. Look at the guide here - http://asia.cnet.com/digitalliving/tips/0,...62032875,00.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emn1ty Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 And it is the same on the inside of my computer, just open up the side, slide out the drive and put the sliding mounts on a new drive after plugging it in. It isn't that hard, I know. But difficulty isn't an issue here, it is how the consumer approaches it. Before I knew how to make computers they looked confusing as hell. I bet at least 80% of PS3 owners don't even know the back opens up, just like I never found out what that giant slot in the back of my old PS2 was for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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