Reiser4 for Ubuntu 9.04


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Tilt090

Hi guys i'm happy to have discovered open source and recently moved towards it by installing ubuntu 9.04 beta. I found the system to be very fast and userfriendly.

however im now interested in using the reiser4 filesystem on ubuntu 9.04 which can be found here

http://laurent.riffard.free.fr/reiser4/rei...for-2.6.29-rc5/

will someone kindly advise on how to install a FS (resier4) in an OS (ubuntu 9.04) or point towards some such guide?

thanks a lot!! :)

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ToneKnee

I refuse to use Reiser for the simple fact that the creator is a murderer. Also, there are better FS now, i.e ext4.

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Tilt090

you sir are welcome to do what you like. if you know how to install it post here else kindly mind your business.

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Elv13

Don't use it, it will brake after 3 week or 1 forced computer reset (5 second on the power button) and you will lose most of your data. Reiser4 is now quite old, and an unmaintained abandonateware. I it is dying and on its way out of the last few computer using it. I used it back on suse and it proved to be much slower than etx3 and less stable. It is mostly why it was rejected by Linux Torvald and the Linux kernel team.

I really recommend to use etx3 or 4, but if you really, really want to have trouble:

1- Find the oldest kernel that will work with your hardware (have the right driver)

2- Patch the sources manually with reiser4 patchset (be sure to have a compatible version)

3- Configure (make menuconfig) and compile your kernel with the right arch

4- Install Ubuntu on an ext3 partition

5- Boot on it and install reiser4 tools from synaptic (I am not even sure if the are there anymore)

6- Install your new Kernel

7- Reboot on the new kernel to test it (80% sure it will not boot at all)

8- Make a reiser4 partition from the installed Ubuntu (using mkfs.reiser4)

9- mount the new partition

10- Copy your install using cp -av / <mount point>

11- edit /etc/fstab and /boot/grub/menu.lst on the new copy of your Ubuntu

12- Reinstall grub to link on your new partition

Reboot and pray

I repeat, you have absolutelly no good reason to do that.

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Subject Delta
you sir are welcome to do what you like. if you know how to install it post here else kindly mind your business.

Why do you feel the need to post in such an openly aggressive tone.

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rob.derosa
I refuse to use Reiser for the simple fact that the creator is a murderer.

That's like saying you aren't going to take advantage of modern medicine.. a lot of it was based on animal/human testing.

Although if it is a rubbish file system, that's fair enough ;)

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Tilt090

@Elv13 thanks for the steps. what about the guys like laurent riffard are they maintaining this FS or is just providing the patch for it for subsequent kernels.??i guess ext4 is more practical of the two incase Reiser4 is not under development anymore. plus is it actually rubbish? i saw benchmarks which show it outshines anything in FS esp when formatted with compression. and read the lower performance is happening due to political reasons in the linux community? Any ideas what the truth is

@Frank hi you tell me why should someone be ignored or an aggressive tone be adopted against them? i wonder. ;)

Edited by pallavsuri
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markjensen
...

@Frank hi you tell me why should someone be ignored or an aggressive tone be adopted against them? i wonder. ;)

I'm not Frank Fontaine, but here is my opinion.

  1. There is no reason to put people down like that. It is somewhat relevant. As a convicted murderer, he is in jail, and no longer employing his former coders (can't pay them). The business is likely bankrupt. The filesystem is fading into obscurity (and was never accepted into the mainstream kernel). See? They do tie together, and you were unnecessarily rude.
  2. Ignoring is the best option. See point #1.
  3. You get more flies with honey than vinegar (or something like that). The phrase means that sweetness attracts flies (which is supposed to be a good thing for the sake of the metaphor), and that being sour makes goal-accomplishing difficult.
  4. There is no 4. This is just a placeholder.

If Frank has anything else to add, he is more than welcome, since you called him out on his post.

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Tilt090

wise words mark! a bit of empathy from all sides helps!

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Tilt090

@mark after reading a bit on reiser4 and hans reiser vs linus torvalds it seems like open source has suffered losses over last 5 years like windows has as well. What i mean is linux lost hans reiser who was providing what ext4 today is almost 4-5 years back, but for many reasons it didnt come through and only now ext4 has arrived. similarly, for closed source vista was a leap ahead for microsoft but didnt catch on till windows 7 which is now generating lot of publicity. However windows xp remains the dominant OS. The winxp to win7 period is almost the same, 4-5 years.

maybe thats why open source didnt catch on immediately as vista started getting bad press. and now that ext4 is coming in so is windows 7. another opportunity missed for open source to have wide reach to the masses imho.

i wonder what others here think.

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Zapadlo

Windows XP to Windows 7 period is in fact at least 8 years, for XP came out in 2001 and 7 is not even out yet. Also I don't think absence of ext4 played a big part in unix's popularity. Ext3 has been introduced in 2001, so the same time as XP and as we both know it is a good FS. Albeit being not the fastest is surpasses other on accounts of stability, less CPU consumption and generally considered safer.

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Subject Delta
@Frank hi you tell me why should someone be ignored or an aggressive tone be adopted against them? i wonder. ;)

It's a simple thing called common courtesy. If you don't like someone's suggestion just ignore it, if you continue to post in an aggressive tone like that people simply won't help you.

@mark after reading a bit on reiser4 and hans reiser vs linus torvalds it seems like open source has suffered losses over last 5 years like windows has as well. What i mean is linux lost hans reiser who was providing what ext4 today is almost 4-5 years back, but for many reasons it didnt come through and only now ext4 has arrived. similarly, for closed source vista was a leap ahead for microsoft but didnt catch on till windows 7 which is now generating lot of publicity. However windows xp remains the dominant OS. The winxp to win7 period is almost the same, 4-5 years.

maybe thats why open source didnt catch on immediately as vista started getting bad press. and now that ext4 is coming in so is windows 7. another opportunity missed for open source to have wide reach to the masses imho.

Firstly, nobody "lost" Hans Reiser, he has been put in prison for a cold blooded and sickening murder. Secondly, Windows XP is not the dominant OS, most Vista users I know are happy with it, it is only being used on computers too slow for Vista, and by the clingers on ignorant of the facts about Vista that believe everything coming out of the Apple and FOSS camps, without trying Vista for themselves.

And "open source" not catching on has nothing at all to do with Vista, and EXT4 coming in has nothing to do with Windows 7 either, it is just a logical step towards improved FS performance in Linux. The reason Open Source doesn't "reach the masses" has nothing to do with the file systems, and a lot to do with the fact that for starters most OEM's still don't ship it, and secondly Linux is just far too hard to use for joe average.

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markjensen
... Secondly, Windows XP is not the dominant OS...
If by "dominant", one means "most used", then XP is dominant still.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-...p;qptimeframe=M

OSversions_Mar09.png

...The reason Open Source doesn't "reach the masses" has nothing to do with the file systems, and a lot to do with the fact that for starters most OEM's still don't ship it, and secondly Linux is just far too hard to use for joe average.
I agree that common pre-install does hurt a bit (mostly it is the end user's inertia that expects Windows). But I disagree that Linux is hard for joe average to use. I think it is just as easy to click firefox as IE. As easy to type a letter to Aunt Mabel in OO.o as MS Office. But the initial self-setup is a big hurdle for people like my mother-in-law, who just buys a new computer when the old one gets laggy and slow.

It's the administration and installation people don't want to learn. Not the usage.

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Subject Delta

System administration, even in its basic forms is still important to end users, and in Linux it does IMO still make a difference to usability. Granted if I set a Linux system up for someone I would expect them to be reasonably comfortable using it, but I personally wouldn't fancy administrating it myself.

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Tilt090

there has to be a USP for any OS to reach the masses. especially when it is considered lacking in ease of use. For example, speed generally is the easiest thing to convey.

i agree people dont want to learn the admin and installation, when user friendliness comes like in case of ubuntu all it needs is a USP like an extraordinary FS to sell. since fs equates to performance which is easy selling.

This is also probably the weakest point in windows, the defragmented and slower NTFS.

my idea is that linux had such a potential USP with reiser4 which it could have used to turn the tables when MS was faltering but it couldnt so approximately last 4-5 years have been in limbo for both closed and open source in a way.

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Subject Delta

Reiser 4 is older than Windows Vista, so I hardly see that as a lost opportunity. When people pick a new computer the first thing they look at isn't going to be the filesystem performance, it is going to be the Hardware performance, and with modern hard disks so fast, the minute differences that a filesystem makes will be negated in part by the rest of the machine's hardware. Really the only place that argument is particularly applicable would be in a server environment. And I don't agree that NTFS is the weakest point in Windows at all, NTFS is not slow, that only appears to apply to you, it is perfectly fast on my own rig, and most other Windows rigs that I have dealt with, and all filesystems fragment.

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markjensen

^^^ Agreed.

Most casual users aren't even aware what a "filesystem" is, or that there are more than one in-use.

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Tilt090

hmm well then life goes on as usual! i suppose if the speed and improvements in linux are packaged and marketed better it could make a difference. maybe linux not only needs tech experts working in their free time but also professional ad makers and marketers who can market this. for example the ads which were featured on the front page on neowin couple of days back seemed a step in the right direction. lets say a simple and attractive ad highlighting "speed" & "prettiness" of the system across all consumer channels papers, billboards etc could easily pull it up. but the fragmentation of the community and conflicting interests hurt.. not to mention lack of funding.... does someone know the business model of ubuntu ? how it makes money? linux is pretty good, something needs to change the adoption and use. not sure what that tipping point will be or what to tweak in the system to make it a dominos effect changing the game.

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markjensen

Lack of funding? Are you aware that most of the Linux kernel development is done by paid programmers, working for corporations like IBM, Red Hat, Novell and others?

And the interests aren't "conflicting". They are diverse (which may overwhelm some people). But I can run a Gnome desktop and use a wonderful KDE app like k3b. Or (which is actually the case) I can prefer the minimal fluxbox as my GUI, and still use Firefox, OpenOffice.org, and all other apps, regardless of what libraries they are using as their foundation. The term "conflicting" implies a denial of usage based on the differences.

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Tilt090

i am aware of the corporate involvement but did not know it was the most part of it. by conflict what i meant was indeed diversity which is both a boon and bane. also in another sense where nokia develops its own OS in linux for tablet 810 but its pc suite is only windows based. also where microsoft supports open source in a limited way but its larger business model is based on closed philosophy.

how do u see the scenario of open vs closed source unfolding over the next say 5 years?

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Zapadlo
...

how do u see the scenario of open vs closed source unfolding over the next say 5 years?

The same way it has over the past 50 years.

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The_Decryptor

ReiserFS will be community supported from now on, the company (Namesys) went under after the owner killed his wife. It's also not in the kernel (unlike a lot of other, popular filesystems). Most people would pick (if they even bothered picking) an FS like Ext4 or XFS (and another one I'm forgetting)

Lack of funding? Are you aware that most of the Linux kernel development is done by paid programmers, working for corporations like IBM, Red Hat, Novell and others?

...

And don't forget Nokia, they bought TrollTech (the makers of Qt)

Nokia even released their own Linux powered phone (using GTK funnily enough :p )

Edit: Oh yeah, JFS and in the future, Btrfs (looks interesting)

Edited by The_Decryptor
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Tilt090

what does it mean to be community owned esp in the context that most of the funding is by corporations like mark just explained?

and its surprising that its going to be community owned because the major argument given by Linus was that Reiser4 will not ever become community owned so they dont want it as its proprietory!

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Elv13
@Elv13 thanks for the steps. what about the guys like laurent riffard are they maintaining this FS or is just providing the patch for it for subsequent kernels.??i guess ext4 is more practical of the two incase Reiser4 is not under development anymore. plus is it actually rubbish? i saw benchmarks which show it outshines anything in FS esp when formatted with compression. and read the lower performance is happening due to political reasons in the linux community? Any ideas what the truth is

I was rejected by Linus Torvald because it was unstable and it is the truth, I tried it. It has some fan producing quite a lot of fake benchmark, but ext3 was faster, at least in my own test with a comfortable margin. Since Linux 2.6.15, it have some regression on x86_64, but it is more stable that reiser4 (and reiserFS) so I keep it. There is no "real" ultimate file system. ZFS on BSD and Solaris is great for data integrity, snapshot, backup and safety. XFS is fast with small file. Fat32/exFat is compatible with everything, ext2/3/4 are compatible with each other (and ext4 is quite fast for normal use). Other like squirelFS, unionFS and some other can be scaled down (for live-cd). Many file system out there are really advanced and have advantages over other, but that doesn't they are the best file system.

If reiser4 was so great, it would be the default Linux file system by now, at some point, reiserFS(3) almost took the lead, but after a while, it was clear that ext* was the right way to go. And ext us less energy/cpu/IO, so it help on laptop.

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Subject Delta
hmm well then life goes on as usual! i suppose if the speed and improvements in linux are packaged and marketed better it could make a difference. maybe linux not only needs tech experts working in their free time but also professional ad makers and marketers who can market this. for example the ads which were featured on the front page on neowin couple of days back seemed a step in the right direction. lets say a simple and attractive ad highlighting "speed" & "prettiness" of the system across all consumer channels papers, billboards etc could easily pull it up. but the fragmentation of the community and conflicting interests hurt.. not to mention lack of funding.... does someone know the business model of ubuntu ? how it makes money? linux is pretty good, something needs to change the adoption and use. not sure what that tipping point will be or what to tweak in the system to make it a dominos effect changing the game.

Speed depends on your hardware, and Prettiness is in the eye of the beholder, what you find pretty another user may not. I haven't found any modern Linux distributions that seem any faster to me than Vista or XP, its just hardware dependant like everything else.

FYI Linux is a free and open source project, it doesn't have a "business model". As for Ubuntu, I believe Canonical fund Ubuntu, not sure how its funded but there is no commercial side to it, it is totally and utterly free to everyone.

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