E3 2009: Microsoft Promises Transformational Show


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Also, MS using HD-DVD as the next gaming format would be absolutely stupid, who on earth is suggesting that? :laugh:

Why is that stupid, just like Blu-ray it allows much more space for developers, plus it's a dead format so some piracy might happen but won't run rampant because people probably won't invest in 'dead hardware'. They could even go the route of re-naming the technology and just use it for gaming and allow the viewing of DVDs and those old HD-DVDs we have laying around from their add-on. Oh yeah, we may not get on the amazing Blu-ray ( :rolleyes: ) bandwagon but at least you have a format which is a step up from DVD that allows more head room for the developers.

And peripherals aren't that big of a deal because they are released all the time.

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i'm suggesting the return of HD DVD as a console-specific format. what's so stupid about that? and please don't start with the Xbox 1.5 BS dude, you sound like Kutaragi when you talk like that, and i don't want to go back to the days of you sending me pictures of wide-mouthed fish...

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Why is that stupid, just like Blu-ray it allows much more space for developers, plus it's a dead format so some piracy might happen but won't run rampant because people probably won't invest in 'dead hardware'. They could even go the route of re-naming the technology and just use it for gaming and allow the viewing of DVDs and those old HD-DVDs we have laying around from their add-on. Oh yeah, we may not get on the amazing Blu-ray ( :rolleyes: ) bandwagon but at least you have a format which is a step up from DVD that allows more head room for the developers.

And peripherals aren't that big of a deal because they are released all the time.

How about MS would want to let people play Blu Ray movies to steal an advantage from the PS3/PS4. One more reason you'd use your Xbox for everything under your TV.

That benefits the consumer. HD-DVD does nothing for the consumer except pass over disc swapping.

The only people seriously opposed to Blu Ray being in the next Xbox must genuinely be people butthurt about the HD war or have a hatred of Sony. I can not for the life of me understand why it's better not to have it, than to have it when its the current HD movie format and the large capacity discs that are currently in production. Anything proprietary will cost MS more money also.

i'm suggesting the return of HD DVD as a console-specific format. what's so stupid about that? and please don't start with the Xbox 1.5 BS dude, you sound like Kutaragi when you talk like that, and i don't want to go back to the days of you sending me pictures of wide-mouthed fish...

What the hell? Did you read my post?

That is much more different than releasing a physically new console, whether MS brand it a 360.5 or the next Xbox.

I'm talking about how MS could consider releasing a new console next year that isn't as big a jump on the current Xbox on purpose to keep costs down, like how people are suggesting we have a slightly better xbox soon for the hardcore, and keep the 360 for the casuals. Even if they do that though, releasing peripherals and releasing this slightly more souped up 360 is still a big difference for consumers.

Edited by Audioboxer
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My guess is something boring and mundane that won't make any difference to people's lives. Kind of like how the "huge" secret feature for Windows 7 turned out to not be very interesting for most people at all.

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How about MS would want to let people play Blu Ray movies to steal an advantage from the PS3. One more reason you'd use your Xbox for everything under your TV.

That benefits the consumer.

And it's also about shaving off the cost of each console, which Sony is having a hard time doing. Using a dead format for gaming that allows exactly the head-room the Blu-ray disc is offering for a fraction of the cost, that is brilliant. Oh and news-flash - Not everyone want the complete multimedia experience, they want a gaming console first and foremost. I think adopting HD-DVD, renaming it and using it purely to expand the space available for developers would be pure brilliance, save them a lot of dough.

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And it's also about shaving off the cost of each console, which Sony is having a hard time doing. Using a dead format for gaming that allows exactly the head-room the Blu-ray disc is offering for a fraction of the cost, that is brilliant. Oh and news-flash - Not everyone want the complete multimedia experience, they want a gaming console first and foremost. I think adopting HD-DVD, renaming it and using it purely to expand the space available for developers would be pure brilliance, save them a lot of dough.

Uhhh how is bringing back discs not used by anyone going to be cheaper?

Blu Ray discs are in mass production, who exactly makes HD-DVD discs now? No one. MS would need to start up production lines and manufacture them themselves. I'm sure that's going to be cheaper than having some factory in China mass print your games on Blu Rays.

Not to mention who exactly is making these HD-DVD drives for MS? No one makes them any more either. Again more production lines needed just to make the drives, rather than contracting any one of the Blu Ray drive makers over the next few years.

And again, how is it better not to have HD movie playback, than to have it? Saying not everyone wants movie playback is a moot point, what happens if some people do? Better to serve them than to serve no one using a dead format.

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We will see Halo3:ODST which will be the biggest news...at least for me. :p Probably announcement of a new Halo game for next year. We might see a BD equipped 360 or external BD drive. We might see a Xbox portable or Zune fused with Xbox phone. Microsoft has denied a Zune phone but they haven't said anything about Xbox phone running Zune. :shifty:

But I am pretty sure we won't see announcement of next Xbox yet. I am sure it is in development for some time (that's why the guy mentioned it to Larry) but it's not going to be here anytime soon. If it is planned for next Holiday season...they won't be announcing it this soon which can kill 360 sales. It is too late to announce for this holiday and too early for next.

So no Nextbox yet, folks. :)

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Because Microsoft probably needs to pay royalties if they decided to implement Blu-ray in their consoles and with one of the competitors being the main backers, I think think the price would go up significantly. Then it's a lot cheaper to go with a format they backed themselves that nobody is using now. Then you can argue the cost of manufacturing an HD-DVD disc or the royality that needs to be paid per disc / console.

Not saying it's better but it's still a step up from DVD whether you like it or not, it allows the playback of HD-DVDs and increased space for developers, beside the fact is still plays DVDs. The 360 today doesn't have Blu-ray and it's doing quite well, isn't it? People buy consoles to play games, the rest is mainly just a bonus. Yes some people go for this sort of stuff but I still think gaming is the main selling point of a console and is the maker / breaker of a console's success, NOT which movie formats it plays ... Could point to your constant example of the Wii, it doesn't even play DVD out of the box and it's doing great, that's because people want to play games on it.

And just to make it perfectly clear what I'm saying here, I don't predict the HD-DVD headint to the next Xbox, just arguing the pros and cons of it all and why I don't see it as a bad idea.

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Because Microsoft probably needs to pay royalties if they decided to implement Blu-ray in their consoles and with one of the competitors being the main backers, I think think the price would go up significantly. Then it's a lot cheaper to go with a format they backed themselves that nobody is using now. Then you can argue the cost of manufacturing an HD-DVD disc or the royality that needs to be paid per disc / console.

Not saying it's better but it's still a step up from DVD whether you like it or not, it allows the playback of HD-DVDs and increased space for developers, beside the fact is still plays DVDs. The 360 today doesn't have Blu-ray and it's doing quite well, isn't it? People buy consoles to play games, the rest is mainly just a bonus. Yes some people go for this sort of stuff but I still think gaming is the main selling point of a console and is the maker / breaker of a console's success, NOT which movie formats it plays ... Could point to your constant example of the Wii, it doesn't even play DVD out of the box and it's doing great, that's because people want to play games on it.

And just to make it perfectly clear what I'm saying here, I don't predict the HD-DVD headint to the next Xbox, just arguing the pros and cons of it all and why I don't see it as a bad idea.

Fair enough! I'm actually going to look and see if MS would need to pay loyalties?

I mean, even if they do dig up HD-DVD as silly as it sounds would they not need to pay loyalties then as well? MS don't own HD-DVD, Toshiba (?) do. It's not like because it's now "dead" anyone can take the HD-DVD name and continue using it again, surely not.

Then if loyalties are to be paid, you need to weigh it against all the proprietary costs MS would need to fund to continue making HD-DVD drives and discs again themselves. Toshiba sure as hell ain't gonna start manufacturing plants up again for them. I'm thinking outsourcing your hardware rather than making it would be significantly cheaper than licensing fees, but that's speculation.

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After visiting AMD for Neowindex, I am pretty convinced a new XBox is going to be announced much, much sooner than anyone expected. Not sure it is going to be E3 soon, but who knows...

I only have one simple reason for saying this...

While we were there, 3 different people over the course of the day made some kind of reference to already working on and being very far along (said by one person) on "the next generation of consoles." One of the guys worked for the gaming department specifically, and I had asked him about PC gaming being dead. The talk then somehow led to Dual GPU's, which we both agreed on but then he explained why they are useless right now since most developers concentrate on consoles instead of the PC, and that is when he specifically said "wait until the next generation of consoles."

So who knows, he could have been talking about the Wii as AMD also supplies the ATi GPU for it as well, but I highly, highly doubt it...

I plan on interviewing this one person pretty soon, just him explaining the process behind drivers for the PC was interesting, so of course I will push him on the console side of things, but chances are he won't budge. I seriously do just have a feeling based on how he said it and the look when he said it that a new XBox is definitely coming soon. :|

I wonder what ATi's team of crack head designers have come up with this time, the last GPU was a few generations ahead of anything they released on the PC, I love ATi, always cooking something up! :)

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I've always thought Microsoft should implement HD-DVD into their next console, they could simply use HD-DVDs for the 360 games as well as older dual-layer dvd's if that's possible.

I mean, why wouldn't they? It seems like a great idea aside from using Blu-ray. MS could pay Toshiba for the royalties of using a basically dead format and using it themselves.

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I've always thought Microsoft should implement HD-DVD into their next console, they could simply use HD-DVDs for the 360 games as well as older dual-layer dvd's if that's possible.

I mean, why wouldn't they? It seems like a great idea aside from using Blu-ray. MS could pay Toshiba for the royalties of using a basically dead format and using it themselves.

If they start paying royalties why wouldn't they just pay for Blu Ray so they can slap "HD Movie playback" on their console? It is indisputably another advantage to the console.

What about all this Netflix support MS have managed to bag? Netflix owners rent Blu Rays, not HD-DVDs. Advertise Netflix on the Dashboard and say now you can play all your Blu Rays at Home as well as watch digitally.

I understood Sethos' points, but really, if they need to pay any sort of loyalties for HD-DVD then you're having a laugh thinking it's a better move than just going with the HD standard. Or if the costs to manufacture HD-DVD drives and discs outweigh paying for a Blu Ray license, again, it would be stupid not to.

It's a pro-consumer move, as much as you want to say "no one" cares about HD playback people do, and it's better to get another couple thousand buying your console thanks to HD playback than not.

Remember if MS release a new Xbox in the next year or two it's going to cost more than the PS3, and if it doesn't even do HD playback out the door, that could be a disadvantage to some new buyers. Having HD playback though, if the current 360 never gets it, could swing some people from buying a PS3 to spending a bit more and getting this new Xbox.

In case you're wondering why I'm all for it, it will just make things much easier transporting movies between friends. Right now I have friends with 360s only and friends with PS3s only meaning I can't bring HD movies round to some of my friends houses at all. This split is always going to exist amongst friends as not everyone can afford multiple platforms. Of course hopefully Blu Ray players will reach that ?99 and less mark over the next few years.

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I'd be interested in that as well, though I am pretty sure they would need to pay royalties to use Blu-ray.

Here's a question though, in case Microsoft wanted to 'advance' to the next stage of optical media, where would they go in case they decided to skip Blu-ray due to cost, HD-DVD is there, a proved format, a format they were even part of promoting - A simple rename would be a simple PR trick, just pretend it's a proprietary format :p As for royalties to HD-DVD, I would have no idea how that would be sorted but I'm pretty sure it could be done very cheaply, perhaps even free with some simple guidelines but that's is more guesswork. I still think it would be a lot cheaper than going the Blu-ray route.

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If they start paying royalties why wouldn't they just pay for Blu Ray so they can slap "HD Movie playback" on their console?

Because then they could fully pump out HD movie streaming?

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Because then they could fully pump out HD movie streaming?

And that's going to overtake and destroy physical in the next year or two? Not when BT are in charge of the UK :(

How about pimping BOTH?

Sony have a movie store right now and Blu Ray playback. MS have a movie store, no physical HD playback.

Again pro-consumer, giving both options instead of just one.

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since i cannot go to E3 this year i think i might have to just plant myself in front of my computer screen for the whole event to make sure that i do not miss anything.

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And that's going to overtake and destroy physical in the next year or two? Not when BT are in charge of the UK :(

How about pimping BOTH?

Sony have a movie store right now and Blu Ray playback.

Again pro-consumer, giving both options instead of just one.

Yeah but Sony aren't exactly inspiring considering their position.

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I'd be interested in that as well, though I am pretty sure they would need to pay royalties to use Blu-ray.

Here's a question though, in case Microsoft wanted to 'advance' to the next stage of optical media, where would they go in case they decided to skip Blu-ray due to cost, HD-DVD is there, a proved format, a format they were even part of promoting - A simple rename would be a simple PR trick, just pretend it's a proprietary format :p As for royalties to HD-DVD, I would have no idea how that would be sorted but I'm pretty sure it could be done very cheaply, perhaps even free with some simple guidelines but that's is more guesswork. I still think it would be a lot cheaper than going the Blu-ray route.

When you're going to these lengths now of "PR tricks" and renaming it just seems like you're pulling every cat out of the bag to avoid Blu Ray at all costs. If that's the case it's more so an issue you have with the format as opposed to an issue the format has.

From a consumer POV unless MS came out and said "Blu Ray will raise the cost of our next Xbox by ?20 a unit" I don't see why you wouldn't be anticipating/wanting Blu Ray. It has more benefits for a consumer in the next Xbox than HD-DVD will ever have, unless as mentioned earlier MS publicly state unit costs will be higher.

Yeah but Sony aren't exactly inspiring considering their position.

Sony's position in the console market isn't interlinked with Blu Ray.

Blu Ray won the HD war and is the only physical format, that's just the way it ended up.

The PS3 is just one player of the movie format.

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Of course you would want to avoid Blu-ray if it ups the production cost by a lot, I doubt ?20 per unit would even come close to doing - Simple logic tells me that. Especially considering who's backing what. So paying more just to force a movie format down our throats Sony style, no thanks. That is exactly the reason why I'm pro HD-DVD, because I have this idea of it could be implemented a lot cheaper and offer the gaming functionalities of Blu-ray, THAT I would love.

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Of course you would want to avoid Blu-ray if it ups the production cost by a lot, I doubt ?20 per unit would even come close to doing - Simple logic tells me that. Especially considering who's backing what. So paying more just to force a movie format down our throats Sony style, no thanks. That is exactly the reason why I'm pro HD-DVD, because I have this idea of it could be implemented a lot cheaper and offer the gaming functionalities of Blu-ray, THAT I would love.

So forcing a dead movie format down your throat is better?:pp

lol I jest.

If it's cheaper for MS it could be a good move, if it's not cheaper or isn't going to bump unit cost, it's a foolish move. I personally do not see it being cheaper due to the hardware required being defunct and having to be completely re-manufactured just for a gaming console - You're talking hardware lines JUST for HD-DVD for MS, not outsourced, done by another company or anything like that, just MS. MS don't make their DVD drives, if you open your 360 your DVD drives are branded by the likes of Toshiba/Hitachi/etc. Do the same thing with Blu Ray, get someone else to make the drives for you and Blu Ray discs will not be that expensive next year, not for a company printing 8 million copies of Halo 4 at once.

But that's just my analysis, and I'm not paid to give advice so it's the views of a free man who could most definitely be wrong/under-researched:pp

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if it's not cheaper or isn't going to bump unit cost, it's a foolish move.

Of course it is, nobody said otherwise. Only reason why I argue this case is the cost factor.

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At this point, anyone with 20 mill will be able to get HD DVD revived.

Holiday 2010 isn't too early and an announcement won't kill 360 sales, although it may cause a slow down. PS2 sales didn't slow down noticably the year-two post annoucement. Even the original Xbox was still selling to an extent when MS pulled it. Even with a new console coming in 18 months, old 360 will be able to move 40 mill pieces, almost twice orig Xbox, prob more than MS really expected to sell and case closed in my book.

But if it's not a new console announcement, than i too believe it'll be something hardware related. Maybe a portable, although i hope not. Not a fan of portable gaming, never was.

EDIT: AB, forgot to answer your question. I'm an old school gamer and so expect more of the same. I believe the next Xbox/PS should have at least 2GB of RAM for example, and 512MB dedicated to visuals minimum. Add 50% CPU strength, 50% to GPU performance, HD-DVD for media, bigger HD by default (i'd be happy with 60GB), more inputs, a new case, stuff like that. i don't need interface changes, motion sensing etc.

I don't think doing something like this will be as cost prohibitive as you deem it. These things are getting cheaper by the day thanks to people like Foxconn.

Edited by neoadorable
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Going with HD-DVD would be the best option IMO. Extremely reduced piracy, cheaper production, much more space than DVD and the best of all, they could also support BluRay. IIRC both formats use the same laser diodes, they could very well make a drive that supported both formats, one for games and another one for movies.

Not to mention it would also play the whole HD-DVD back catalog.

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Going with HD-DVD would be the best option IMO. Extremely reduced piracy, cheaper production, much more space than DVD and the best of all, they could also support BluRay. IIRC both formats use the same laser diodes, they could very well make a drive that supported both formats, one for games and another one for movies.

Not to mention it would also play the whole HD-DVD back catalog.

See, great minds think alike :laugh:

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Two of the main things I've said about using HD-DVD for games is the massive reduction in piracy and the increased space on the disk. It seems so logical if MS are willing to drop the cash for it.

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