95.5% Piracy rate; And Yet it Moves Developer Interview


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Still don't get the PS3 bashing comment. You left a post that said not to turn this into PS3 bashing and directed it towards my post. Where did I ever mention the PS3?

oh sorry i was a bit late on hitting reply the ^ is refering to jewishornet's post regarding starting a ps3 bashing ^_^ i should of quoted instead my apologizes :)

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Why bother paying for something you just got for free?

because i have the cash and i support the developers...i have the cash saved from not buying crappy games...

honestly the logic of 'If it isn't worth it to you, than don't buy it, and don't play it' is just going to reward the marketing department more than the people who actually make the game, 'worth it' in this case often means how well its been hyped up...

you dont buy it --> you cant play it --> you dont know what its actually like --> you dont know if its worth it

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You don't get to decide what a game is worth. You do get to decide if it is worth your money, but you don't get to set the price. If it isn't worth it to you, than don't buy it, and don't play it. Developers aren't greedy for trying to sell their games to pay the bills. It takes a lot of money to make a game, and they are trying to make profit on their games. I don't think game developers think a game is going to be worth the same amount to everyone, and they've probably accepted that if they create a game it's going to be pirated to some extent, and none of this makes them greedy. They have a product, which you will either buy or not buy, based on the utility you expect to get from said product.

This isn't to say that the gaming industry doesn't have its fair share of greed (read: EA) but you can't blame every developer for charging what they feel is a fair price for their hard work.

Thanks for stating the obvious, I didn't realize that I don't get to decide the price, that explains a lot of my awkward situations in PC stores.... /sarcasm

Seriously, how would I know if it's worth my time and money if I don't try it ? Demos != Full retail game.

I can imagine that making a game (and a decent one at that) is costly, but it's one thing to make a profit and another to whine like little bitches about every little "pirate" that "steals" their game, which most of them do.

I don't blame developers at all, I understand their concerns about the finances, but it seems that it's the ONLY thing they care about.

I can't believe that these "developers" are poor souls living on the street, with "piracy" or without, they'll live.

And well, I don't have statistics or anything factual, just my personal opinion, I think that indie games make a decent profit for the investment developers put in (financially).

And I have no sympathy for huge companies like EA, Blizzard and whatever. They have enough money to run a small country, they can kiss my ass.

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because i have the cash and i support the developers...i have the cash saved from not buying crappy games...

honestly the logic of 'If it isn't worth it to you, than don't buy it, and don't play it' is just going to reward the marketing department more than the people who actually make the game, 'worth it' in this case often means how well its been hyped up...

you dont buy it --> you cant play it --> you dont know what its actually like --> you dont know if its worth it

You don't have to buy into hype. Just because something is heavily marketed doesn't mean it will sell well. Plenty of products have flopped and where hyped up as the greatest product in the world. Hype doesn't not automatically make it sell well. It main increase sales, it definitely increases awareness, but it doesn't guarantee success.

If you honestly buy the games after stealing them I suppose that would be better but it doesn't make what you do any less illegal. But let's be honest here, do you really think everybody else is doing the same as you?

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Seriously, how would I know if it's worth my time and money if I don't try it ?

How do you know a car will be dependable without owning it for ten years? How do you know your food will taste good if you can't eat it all first? How do you know the movie you're going to see is any good without watching the whole thing first?

Like I said before, not every game will be good and just because you're uncertain as to whether or not you like it doesn't mean you can just illegally obtain it.

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You don't have to buy into hype. Just because something is heavily marketed doesn't mean it will sell well. Plenty of products have flopped and where hyped up as the greatest product in the world. Hype doesn't not automatically make it sell well. It main increase sales, it definitely increases awareness, but it doesn't guarantee success.

If you honestly buy the games after stealing them I suppose that would be better but it doesn't make what you do any less illegal. But let's be honest here, do you really think everybody else is doing the same as you?

unfortunately i have to agree with you that i can only speak for myself, i have no guilt about 'stealing' because i buy all the games i want to keep

if it was poor kids going day by day with barely a decent meal just trying to bring abit more joy into their lives with something they couldnt afford anyway, then i can kind of understand... but the rich people who spend their cash on useless stuff like jewelry, bling, overpriced food and an expensive lifestyle, and who go on to pirate games, thats what i dont agree with, those people are just scum...they are shallow and dont understand/dont care about what it actually means to buy a game

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How do you know a car will be dependable without owning it for ten years? How do you know your food will taste good if you can't eat it all first? How do you know the movie you're going to see is any good without watching the whole thing first?

Like I said before, not every game will be good and just because you're uncertain as to whether or not you like it doesn't mean you can just illegally obtain it.

There are things called test drives, taste tests ect. so those examples get blown out of the water. Trying a game or software before purchase is like test driving a car before you buy it or participating in taste tests of different foods before buying.

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You can't test drive reliability. You failed to acknowledge the other two to which there is no way around having to take the plunge without absolutely knowing.

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PC gaming is surely going down the hole in my region in term of Local Buying. We got 2 Ebgames and 1 Walmart. for the 2 Ebgames PC games gone from full wall of games (5 years ago) to one rack with 10 games on it. Same thing as happened at the Montreal Downtown one. Walmart here completly removed PC games. So the only way to get a PC game Legally were i live is either use STEAM or any other 'Download and Play' service that is online. If i want the real physical thing.. forget it..

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I think that piracy could be fought back by game companies through three simple measures:

1. Release demo versions of the final product to allow people to get an idea of the gameplay, performance, etc. (like Crysis, unlike Mirrors Edge);

2. Embrace digital distribution and keep products DRM free;

3. LOWER THE F*CKING PRICES!!! (1000 x 19.99 > 100 x 49.99).

1 + 2 + 3 = Profit! (But there will never be such a thing as a 0% piracy rate)

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Games are usually popular for a reason, such as being good. Tell me a game that is popular yet bad, and I'll see if I can get you some stats. (I hereby forbid you to use The Sims as an example) :p

All games are freely available, so that point is mute.

True. I shouldn't have included that last sentence in my previous post: "And that's regardless if the game is 'bad' or 'good'."

Exactly. You care so little, that you couldn't possibly care any less. "I couldn't care less, even if I tried"

"I could care less" Could you? Could you really care less? Because I couldn't.

See how that works?

You're missing the point! "I could care less" implies that I still care, but I'm capable of caring less. "I couldn't care less" implies that you can't care any less which in turn implies that you didn't care to begin with. It's like digging underground and not being able to go any further because you reached the rock bottom.

Crap games will not be pirated as much as good games, nowhere near as much.

Actually, it's really dependent on the game's popularity; however, a game could be popular because of its quality. Of course, there are other reasons it could be popular such as the developer's reputation or the game's name.

So after a lot of stating the obvious, we are agreed. Thank **** for that :)

I'm glad we came to an agreement, minus the "could/couldn't care less" part. :p

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Everyone raise your hand if your ever pirated a PC game.............. waiting.. OH MY!

This does occur with console games such as Xbox/360 but much much less % and in fact more easily done and safer then downloading. "from what I hear"

Where there is a will there is a way. Aren't all the games for PC and consoles first developed via the PC/computer which I find ironic when I see games coming out for 360 or Wii first before ever coming to PC if at all, because these games (?) are developed on a computer first and then programed/ported onto consoles not the other way around. Am I way off on this or what.

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Everyone raise your hand if your ever pirated a PC game.............. waiting.. OH MY!

This does occur with console games such as Xbox/360 but much much less % and in fact more easily done and safer then downloading. "from what I hear"

Where there is a will there is a way. Aren't all the games for PC and consoles first developed via the PC/computer which I find ironic when I see games coming out for 360 or Wii first before ever coming to PC if at all, because these games (?) are developed on a computer first and then programed/ported onto consoles not the other way around. Am I way off on this or what.

developed with the console in mind and using proprietary tools e.g. p3 devkit

code is written for two different architectures

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You can't test drive reliability. You failed to acknowledge the other two to which there is no way around having to take the plunge without absolutely knowing.

there is a difference between something like a car, and stuff like food and movies, that need to be acknowledged... a car is a persistent and technical thing, while food and movies are consumed ... a more appropriate analogy would perhaps be the fuel that is consumed by your car, the consumption is an act of 'before and after' with no going back, fossil fuel before and horsepower after, food before and calories after, movies before and ooohs and aaaahs after....well, primarily anyway, you can have secondary gains or losses just like you can have different specifications of fuel that either burns really good or knocks in your engine, or have good or bad tasting food, or a movie thats worth watching or not, just like you said ... but you can always get back in the car to keep driving it... the only way that the car is going to act like food and movies is if you 'consume' it in something, like if you plan to total it or something

the thing is, games are sort of like cars in that they 'work', and they even share the term 'engine' ... a car degrades relentlessly naturally while people keep on finding bugs, flaws and exploits in the game's code... both of them define the long-term flaws of their designs, but a car can have lousy handling while a game can be crap, these flaws are immediately obvious, analogous to the bad food and movies

and like cars, and unlike served food and movies, games can be potentially fixed with the proper tools and knowledge, and with enough time and effort invested into it...or they can be improved upon, again with enough time and effort... that is what im paying for in my games, for the developers to keep on working on fixing old games or making new ones

Edited by carmatic
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I'm glad we came to an agreement, minus the "could/couldn't care less" part. :p

Yeah, you're still wrong :p

You're missing the point! "I could care less" implies that I still care, but I'm capable of caring less.

Why would anybody state that? It's completely redundant.

When you said "The average pirate could care less if it's good or not." What did you mean? I'll tell you what you meant, you meant they don't give a **** if its good or not, they'll download it anyway.

Example 1: "I couldn't care less if this game is crap or not, I'm going to download it anyway, because it's freeee. w00t!"

Example 2: "I could care less if this game is good or not, I'm... I... Um... I'm full of ****." *Dribble* *Die*

See?

I rest my case.

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Yeah, you're still wrong :p

No. :s

Why would anybody state that? It's completely redundant.

When you said "The average pirate could care less if it's good or not." What did you mean? I'll tell you what you meant, you meant they don't give a **** if its good or not, they'll download it anyway.

Example 1: "I couldn't care less if this game is crap or not, I'm going to download it anyway, because it's freeee. w00t!"

Example 2: "I could care less if this game is good or not, I'm... I... Um... I'm full of ****." *Dribble* *Die*

See?

I rest my case.

It isn't redundant. And that's not what I meant. What I meant is that the average pirate already cares about the game's quality, to a degree, but cares less about it and more about the game's popularity.

Example: "Oh, X game has 9999 seeders. It could be good, it could be bad ? I'll just download it anyway. After all, their must be a reason why so many people are seeding it."

This argument about semantics is growing tiresome. AnywayAnd Yet it Movesi> seems to be experiencing a high rate of piracy despite being DRM free. I guess it serves as proof that a game will be pirated, regardless of its inclusion or exclusion of DRM copy protection.

good games sell, no mather what...

Good games also experience high rates of piracy.

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It is nice to see a developer working to reward the honest customers rather than punish them with DRM and other copy-protection tactics. Yes, any game can be cracked/stolen and if someone wants it bad enough for free they will get it. For a developer/publisher, it is a far better strategy to entice a customer by reward rather than discourage piracy by punishment.

As for bootlegging being more "appropriate", it is just a word. At the end of the day, they all mean the same thing so why bother sugar-coating it?

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developed with the console in mind and using proprietary tools e.g. p3 devkit

code is written for two different architectures

So games are first developed onto the PC which is the easiest to manufacture and sell.

I don't understand how/why games that are released to consoles are then ported back to the PC. Is this because they aren't initially developed for the PC. I'm confused :huh:

What I think will continue and eventually take over the retail of PC games are companies like Steam that will buy out these PC companies and the only way to purchase the games will be through downloading from their site/software.. Again pirating will continue to take these games and make RIPS from them which are extremely popular now. The pirates will ALWAYS be 2 steps ahead of these developers as we have seen with the 360

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The analogy wasn't comparing the goods themselves to games it was comparing the circumstances of purchasing those goods.

the circumstances of purchasing any form of goods is when you want or need the goods themselves, and you want/need them for a reason... you wouldnt go buy a car when you are hungry , would you?

Good games also experience high rates of piracy.

and all games have a piracy to sale ratio

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So games are first developed onto the PC which is the easiest to manufacture and sell.

I don't understand how/why games that are released to consoles are then ported back to the PC. Is this because they aren't initially developed for the PC. I'm confused :huh:

the games are made on the PC , but they arent made to run on the PC

its like a car made in the factory isnt meant to be driven in the factory... or a chef that makes food doesnt eat it as well...

the PC has a keyboard, and flexibility when it comes to software, thats the important thing when it comes to making games... its almost certain that a PC that you coded your PS3 game with wouldnt be powerful enough to run it , at least in real-time...

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So games are first developed onto the PC which is the easiest to manufacture and sell.

I don't understand how/why games that are released to consoles are then ported back to the PC. Is this because they aren't initially developed for the PC. I'm confused :huh:

the thing is they were not built to run on a general purpose computer to begin with they are coded in a way to take advantage of special hardware (the ps3's cell processor and rsx graphic card) or the xbox 360's custom powerpc processor and custom ati graphic card or even the ps2's ee chip (emotion engine)

each device has something it can do better then others but they don't just magically work they need to be called upon and utilized in the code

the great thing about a general purpose computer is that it can potentially emulate anything it desires (master system, megadrive(genesis), nes, gameboy, ds,psp ,psx ,ps2 ,xbox ,etc)

the problem is these consoles have special chips that enhance certain functionality to the point where it can be executed real time a computer may won't have that specialize chip so it has to make do with using a much faster cpu to compensate for the emulation of those components within the console

however for a successful port that functionality needs to be written in a more efficient way using whatever is available on the cpu to either get something close to it or an exact replica (which can be hard with general purpose chips)

kind of hard to explain i'm sure someone else can get my point across much clearer

pc is general purpose can execute anything it desires which makes it the ultimate debugging tool and is capable of writing code that it can emulate but also will only execute on the proper hardware without emulation

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The bad state of gamedevelopment - a quick brainstorm.

They need to open their eyes.

Most of them came in just to make a few quick and dirty millions without knowledge.

They implement bad games, drop the support early and design systems that drain lots of money from their profit.

Then their bugged bad game faces competition from popular games like world of warcraft, that simply fit the gamers need and lower the need for new expensive bad games.

It is a multi mix of bad practices and events and most of them can be found by the developers themselve or the greedy publishers.

Piracy only became bigger cause this is the new way of trying out games, and most aren't even worth keeping.

Most of the games get uninstalled right after downloading cause they are so low quality.

Instead of crying and slowly dieing the industry should not concentrate on the bad and wrong things but instead on the things they want.

Why is Blizzard getting billions? They hire good people and release quality that can be trusted on.

They release updates and even free content patches even after 9 years...

Most of the gamers will simply blindly trust them and buy anything they can from them.

The industry gets more and more crowded by bad skilless developers that only see the money and have no pation, talent or inspiration.

They ignore their customers and the whole industry, try to put censorship on the internet and digg their own grave.

Open your eyes!

Hire some good peoples, get in knowledge about your main business and keep listening on what your customers want and wat you want (getting money and happy customers).

Stop blaming piracy and every other thing you can quickly grab instead of saying "yes, were on the wrong route, we need to shift away from that".

Damn i see this everywhere, everyone wants to jump on thy blaming and crying train instead of beeing successfull.

Maybe your games get pirated in front, but if you offer quality and take the piracy issue into your early design considerations, you will end up with more and more sales.

Build up your brand and then sell your games.

I cant release a new bad game, that even includes bad antipiracy schemes, that lower the trust in you and lower the fun your paying customes will get, and then start crying for the bad pirates.

They are there, accept it, implement a really sollid game, implement a fast well designed authentification server (if youre planing to get an online mode) and concentrate on attracting potential customers instead of pushing them away into piracy.

Only think on how to make them happy and forget the piracy rants, they don't make you more popular as they simply show your lack of knowledge on that topic.

I always used no-cd patches for my PAID games to get rid of the bad antipiracy schemes and the need to put in a cd every time i want to play 5 minutes.

Often i get a better expirience or even find this the only way to play ma PAID games, when i use a crack on them.

Well... you bring me in contact with these pages and after tossing hundreds of dollars at trash (bad games) and needing to patch them to be able to play it correctly, even the last of your customers will pirate games instead of paying for it.

Also do update your demos!

Take demos into early design considerations and make the process of spawning new demos from recent code, really easy.

Many games are buggy when released, some are even in an unplayable state.

They get updated a lot, but the demos keep the same.

A new user downloads a demo and can't play or gets mad cause of the many bugs and never buys your game.

You may say "oh this is so hard to do, and the updates are that small" but NO, drop that idea!

You can't sell expensive watches with a broken watch in your shop window, you need the most recent, shiny one to lure customers into buying.

Please stop that cry-train of developers that want to have an accuse and a lucky feeling while holding each others hand and say "yes you poor poor friend, ooh, thoose pirates are so bad and the only reason that makes us lose money" and get into the "we do something. we release quailty and make our customers feel comfortable and make more money".

What do you think, does this help? Crying without looking forward and improving things?

What do you think, would you be able to release a new itchy creame made of dirt and get millions from it? Bad things never sell, and making it harder to open the cream for your customers, won't make you more money. Improve that cream instead of making it harder to use it.

It is so easy to blame everyone and to see the solution in fleeing to consoles... but i guarantee to you, you will mess this marked up also, like the one you fleed from.

I could write more specific things and point out flaws many games and current markets have, but i think it is enought and getting too big for this forum.

The system is broken, like the music system and others, so fix it, instead of hurting everyone.

Edited by sorlag
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