Calum Veteran Posted May 25, 2009 Veteran Share Posted May 25, 2009 Calum you just ain't grasping it mate...Its making my life more difficult. Grouping didnt happen unless the taskbar was full up in XP or Vista, so it was a non issue to me. The only option I have is to set to never combine which pretty much ruins the best bits of windows 7 for me, because for everything else, I love the super taskbar. However Messenger just does not work right. You say I'm not getting it, but I've been going off what you said. I already said in an earlier post that I understand Windows XP and Windows Vista only grouped when the taskbar was full, but you said the following - I have 9 - 15 people pinging me on WLM letting me know what needs to be done. At the same time I'll be coding. I'll be browsing. I'll be doing alot of things. If you have that many programs open as well as nine-fifteen people chatting to you on MSN, surely the taskbar would have already been full and Windows Live Messenger windows would have been grouped? That's why I was saying I didn't understand. As for this problem you see, many of us don't see it as a problem, because it takes less than a second to just click on the group and select your conversation window, it makes the taskbar much tidier for us and with all windows of an application grouped it actually helps find certain windows quicker, for many of us (rather than having them at different parts of the taskbar). Remember you don't have to hover, you can click which is quicker. If you still find it as a problem though, unfortunately there is nothing which can be done at the moment. Someone may come out with an add-on for windows which lets you ungroup certain programs only and if I come across one, I will let you know as I'm sure you'd find it useful :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Burning Rom Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 I'm sure once Microsoft has release Windows 7 that there will be a new version of WLM that will be Windows 7 optimised to take advantage of the new features. Exactly. WLM has not been optimized for Windows 7. What you're complaining about is a Windows Vista (and older) compatible program that just so happens to install and run on Windows Vista. In fact, it runs quite well...I use it at work on Win7 to talk to team members. But it was never coded to take full advantage of what Windows 7 has to offer. It just wasn't available at the time. It probably won't be updated until Windows 7 is RTM'd either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calum Veteran Posted May 25, 2009 Veteran Share Posted May 25, 2009 Exactly. WLM has not been optimized for Windows 7. What you're complaining about is a Windows Vista (and older) compatible program that just so happens to install and run on Windows Vista. In fact, it runs quite well...I use it at work on Win7 to talk to team members. But it was never coded to take full advantage of what Windows 7 has to offer. It just wasn't available at the time. It probably won't be updated until Windows 7 is RTM'd either. Actually, Windows Live Messenger 2009 was created to work well with Windows 7 which is why it took advantage of the Windows 7 taskbar APIs, it just didn't implement it as well as it could have - although I still prefer it unlike a lot of people. It's possible they will introduce some sort of minor update by Windows 7 RTM because there are a couple of bugs (e.g. sometimes -two display picture thumbnails showing, one with no picuture inside, when there should just be one), however, I think it's unlikely and I doubt there will be an update until Windows Live 'wave 4' is released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blehbleh Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 You can close the contact list window down using the red 'x', as we all used to and still have Messenger shown in the taskbar. This way you only have to click once to get the Messenger window open, rather than hovering and going through the open windows (display picture and contact list window). This is actually how the Messenger team meant for it to operate, but as Brandon Live said, they are aware there are problems with this implementation and it does need improving. Why would you want to close the contact list window anyway? The current implementation creates an inconsistent behavior vs all other windows applications. If i want to have Live Messenger open but not visible i just minimize the window - not close it. It would still be visible in the taskbar even if that weird buddy-icon wouldn't be there. The way it works now only seems to be a workaround so that people who are used to closing the window should still be able to do so. This is not how any program work. Either a program is open or it's not, if i want to have a program open in the background i just minimize it. Now i can't even use alt-tab to go to the contact list if i close that window, but for some strange reason the other icon is visible in flip3d. I can agree that the buddy-icon can show some useful information but a better solution would be to override the thumbnail for the contact-list (like sticky-notes does) so that you only have one icon for the program. I am not keen on the UI changes made, especially to the main window. I am also far from keen on the fact that they decided for no reason at all to switch the avatar boxes from the right to the left side of the window. Not so fast...There is actually a reason for this. Press win+tab and you'll find out ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calum Veteran Posted May 26, 2009 Veteran Share Posted May 26, 2009 Why would you want to close the contact list window anyway? The current implementation creates an inconsistent behavior vs all other windows applications. If i want to have Live Messenger open but not visible i just minimize the window - not close it. It would still be visible in the taskbar even if that weird buddy-icon wouldn't be there.The way it works now only seems to be a workaround so that people who are used to closing the window should still be able to do so. This is not how any program work. Either a program is open or it's not, if i want to have a program open in the background i just minimize it. Now i can't even use alt-tab to go to the contact list if i close that window, but for some strange reason the other icon is visible in flip3d. I can agree that the buddy-icon can show some useful information but a better solution would be to override the thumbnail for the contact-list (like sticky-notes does) so that you only have one icon for the program. I completely agree this is very inconsistent behaviour with how most other windows behave by default and I also agree it should not have to be done, however, it is always how Messenger has worked. You have always closed Messenger down and it has kept running. That's why I'm certain the Messenger team meant for it to be this way. There isn't really any other explanation. Howeverr, with the new taskbar, it seems silly to do so now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradavon Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Enabling Vista Compatibility on the WLM .exe makes it run how it did in 2000/XP/Vista. I prefer it this way too. I've no use for it in the Super Bar when most of the time I'm not using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notuptome2004 Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Enabling Vista Compatibility on the WLM .exe makes it run how it did in 2000/XP/Vista. I prefer it this way too. I've no use for it in the Super Bar when most of the time I'm not using it. well then windows 7 and future version fo windows is not for you . but besides your gonna be suing the SB anyways no matter what it is ther so yes you will use it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briangw Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Am I the only one who experiences WLM crashes at bootup with it integrated in the taskbar? Been having that since Day 1 of Win 7. Keep sending reports, but for each build, it never gets fixed. :( I have it auto login when Windows boots up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aero_Rising Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Your first mistake was using windows 7 on a work computer which you are explicitly advised not to do by microsoft. Long story short use vista until 7 rtms for work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theyarecomingforyou Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 The new WLM functionality for Windows 7 is a botch, as they needed a way to allow the application to show that it's running. It's not intuitive and it certainly isn't 'progress'. I really like the way it sits in the taskbar and the icon changes to show your status but I hate the 'fake' window and the fact that you can't one click minimise the window like you can in XP / Vista. It just means lots of needless clicking and have to deal with Aero Peek / the taskbar thumbnail. It requires users to learn a completely new methodology that servers no practical purpose and makes tasks more time consuming. I really was hoping that it was only a temporary measure, as the last thing I want to see is other applications copying such an approach. It wouldn't be as much of an issue if the 'fake' window disappeared when any application window opened but it doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calum Veteran Posted May 27, 2009 Veteran Share Posted May 27, 2009 The new WLM functionality for Windows 7 is a botch, as they needed a way to allow the application to show that it's running. It's not intuitive and it certainly isn't 'progress'. I really like the way it sits in the taskbar and the icon changes to show your status but I hate the 'fake' window and the fact that you can't one click minimise the window like you can in XP / Vista. It just means lots of needless clicking and have to deal with Aero Peek / the taskbar thumbnail. It requires users to learn a completely new methodology that servers no practical purpose and makes tasks more time consuming. I really was hoping that it was only a temporary measure, as the last thing I want to see is other applications copying such an approach.It wouldn't be as much of an issue if the 'fake' window disappeared when any application window opened but it doesn't. So what happens when you have at least one chat window open? Do you have the same problems with minimising etc? Does it annoy you just as much as the 'fake' window as you put it? I'm trying to understand user's problems with this, but the way I see it - Once you have one chat window open, by default, it will group in with the contact list window, just like it should. It also grouped on Windows XP and Windows Vista in a similar way. That's why I'm trying to understand why having 2 'windows' grouped to start with is such a problem? Also, have you tried closing down the contact list window every time instead of minimising it? That allows you to just click once on the icon for the contact list to appear :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theyarecomingforyou Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 So what happens when you have at least one chat window open? Do you have the same problems with minimising etc? Does it annoy you just as much as the 'fake' window as you put it? Yes, but that's a problem with Windows 7 rather than with WLM, whereas the fake window is entirely WLM's fault. That's why I'm trying to understand why having 2 'windows' grouped to start with is such a problem? Because in order to manage applications I am used to clicking on the taskbar entry to minimise / restore them, as I always had grouping disabled. However, Windows 7 is designed entirely around grouping and if you disable it then it adds text titles, which pretty much defeats the new interface. So now instead of clicking once on the taskbar entry to minimise a window I now have to click the taskbar, move the mouse to click the window I want and then move the mouse to click the minimise button - that's two extra clicks and a considerable amount of mouse movement. Suddenly a quick task is now an inconvenience. That's pretty much the only thing that bugs me with Windows 7. Unlike the new Office 2007 ribbon interface which reduces the time required to achieve most tasks the new Win7 interface actually increases the time require to manage applications. It's disappointing that they didn't find a way to console the improvement it offers to casual users to the disadvantage if offers to power users. As such it's a sideways step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calum Veteran Posted May 27, 2009 Veteran Share Posted May 27, 2009 Yes, but that's a problem with Windows 7 rather than with WLM, whereas the fake window is entirely WLM's fault.Because in order to manage applications I am used to clicking on the taskbar entry to minimise / restore them, as I always had grouping disabled. However, Windows 7 is designed entirely around grouping and if you disable it then it adds text titles, which pretty much defeats the new interface. So now instead of clicking once on the taskbar entry to minimise a window I now have to click the taskbar, move the mouse to click the window I want and then move the mouse to click the minimise button - that's two extra clicks and a considerable amount of mouse movement. Suddenly a quick task is now an inconvenience. That's pretty much the only thing that bugs me with Windows 7. Unlike the new Office 2007 ribbon interface which reduces the time required to achieve most tasks the new Win7 interface actually increases the time require to manage applications. It's disappointing that they didn't find a way to console the improvement it offers to casual users to the disadvantage if offers to power users. As such it's a sideways step. To be honest, I hate the fact that when I go to the taskbar to restore a window, the window I was working on stays up on the screen and doesn't minimise automatically (a lot of the time getting in the way by showing through the glass of the application you have just restored), but this is the way windows has always been and unfortunately it is something I have to live with. What I do is just quickly press the 'Windows' key and 'M' together and it minimises all open applications. Then I proceed to restore the application I wish to use. Would that work for you in this situation? If you just wish to minimise a certain application, you could 'alt'-'tab' or 'alt'-'Windows' key, to that application and then use the shortcut which just minimises that one application (I don't know it, but I'm certain their is one). This may get a little bit annoying but it's much better than clicking into the taskbar group, selecting that application and then moving the mouse up to the minimise button. The way I see it is that the way Windows 7 handles grouping provides many more benefits than it does problems, that's why I'm very happy with it. I understand that people get used to a certain way though so I'm hoping the keyboard shortcuts I suggested, specifically 'Windows' key and 'M' together, will help you with your problem (if you are not used to keyboard shortcuts, just try it for a bit and it should be easy to get used to :) You'll find it's much quicker to use many keyboard shortcuts). I hope that helps? :) As I say, I understand your point, I just think the grouping provides more benefits than it does problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theyarecomingforyou Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 To be honest, I hate the fact that when I go to the taskbar to restore a window, the window I was working on stays up on the screen and doesn't minimise automatically (a lot of the time getting in the way by showing through the glass of the application you have just restored), but this is the way windows has always been and unfortunately it is something I have to live with.What I do is just quickly press the 'Windows' key and 'M' together and it minimises all open applications. Then I proceed to restore the application I wish to use. Would that work for you in this situation? I certainly use Win-M a lot - much less with Windows 7 - but it provides different functionality to what I'm talking about here. For instance, I generally keep my Steam window open for gaming and have it on the far right of my desktop and like it there most of the time; I also often have Explorer windows open as well, and minimising everything just to access a particular window isn't helpful. I use the taskbar to simply bring the window I want to the front while I work with it, then click it again to minimise it. The way I see it is that the way Windows 7 handles grouping provides many more benefits than it does problems, that's why I'm very happy with it. I understand that people get used to a certain way though so I'm hoping the keyboard shortcuts I suggested, specifically 'Windows' key and 'M' together, will help you with your problem (if you are not used to keyboard shortcuts, just try it for a bit and it should be easy to get used to :) You'll find it's much quicker to use many keyboard shortcuts).I hope that helps? :) As I say, I understand your point, I just think the grouping provides more benefits than it does problems. It brings benefits, for sure, and the Aero Peek functionality is certainly useful in a lot of situations. However, it increases the time and effort required for many every day tasks and even having used it as my primary operating system for 6 months now I still find it getting in the way far too often. Considering the huge improvement the ribbon interface provided for Office 2007 I was expecting more from Windows. The text titles on the taskbar were ugly, largely because they were nearly always truncated, but by removing them it made it impossible to tell windows apart by a quick glance, hence why they went for grouping and Aero Peek - unfortunately that just introduces a whole host of other issues. Windows 7 is a great operating system and a considerable improvement over Vista, which I already thought was decent. But I haven't found any way around the issues I describe other than to turn off grouping and bring back the text, which I don't really want to do. Really I just have to live with it but I hope Microsoft continues to look at it and will change things for Windows 8 (as introducing UI changes in a service pack isn't a good idea). I appreciate you trying to help and I agree that the benefits outweigh the cons, otherwise I'd have disabled grouping by now, but I think it's just something I'll have to deal with. The reduced visual clutter and better application multitasking makes up for the less convenient window multitasking. But I'd have preferred it if they'd kept minimise / restore functionality for grouped applications (memorising their states for restore) and simply reduced the popup time for the thumbnails and Aero Peek so that clicking wasn't required, though that might not be as convenient for other people. It's a tough balancing act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonick Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 The only single problem with WLM on Win7 is that minimizing the last open Firefox windows f some reason brings up the WLM main window :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calum Veteran Posted June 5, 2009 Veteran Share Posted June 5, 2009 I certainly use Win-M a lot - much less with Windows 7 - but it provides different functionality to what I'm talking about here.[...] hence why they went for grouping and Aero Peek - unfortunately that just introduces a whole host of other issues. [...] Windows 7 is a great operating system and a considerable improvement over Vista, which I already thought was decent. But I haven't found any way around the issues I describe other than [...] I appreciate you trying to help and I agree that the benefits outweigh the cons, otherwise I'd have disabled grouping by now, but I think it's just something I'll have to deal with. The reduced visual clutter and better application multitasking makes up for the less convenient window multitasking. But I'd have preferred it if they'd kept minimise / restore functionality for grouped applications (memorising their states for restore) and simply reduced the popup time for the thumbnails and Aero Peek so that clicking wasn't required, though that might not be as convenient for other people. It's a tough balancing act. I understand everything you are saying here and I realise that different people use their operating system in different ways. I also understand you, like me, will be used to a certain way. I, don't mind clicking into a group of windows and selecting the window I wish, but you work differently to me and use different programs to me and this is obviously not convenient to you. I am wondering if any of the multi-tasking shortcuts - 'alt+tab' and 'Windows key+tab' - may be useful for you? Obviously, like me, you may not be used to changing windows this way, but it's the last suggestion I can think of which may help you and may even be perfect for your needs? I'm unsure, but hope it helps :) It would mean you could leave grouping on (and continue to love it) whilst also changing windows how you wish :) If my suggestion doesn't make sense or doesn't help, then sorry :D That's all I can think of, since they have completely changed the way the taskbar manages windows. The only single problem with WLM on Win7 is that minimizing the last open Firefox windows f some reason brings up the WLM main window :/ I really hope one of the companies get this fixed. It's been there since the beta and maybe earlier. It could be a problem with Firefox or Windows Live Messenger, rather than Windows 7 (just like there was a problem with Live Mesh which disabled Aero glass) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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