jonhapimp Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 So I'm confused. You expect to pay expansion prices for a larger game than the original game?The Steam forums have never had a good reputation for intelligent discourse, like many official boards - just look at the World of Warcraft boards. Both get a large share of whiny, selfish, immature people with entitlement issues. While it sounds like an ad hominem, it is, unfortunately, just true. A lot of people, especially teenagers, go to forums to whine and ask for free stuff. Damn right they're locking threads. It's their job, and they're doing it. Forums are not representative of the wider population. what? it's only larger by one campaign and 4 more weapons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 So I'm confused. You expect to pay expansion prices for a larger game than the original game?The Steam forums have never had a good reputation for intelligent discourse, like many official boards - just look at the World of Warcraft boards. Both get a large share of whiny, selfish, immature people with entitlement issues. While it sounds like an ad hominem, it is, unfortunately, just true. A lot of people, especially teenagers, go to forums to whine and ask for free stuff. Damn right they're locking threads. It's their job, and they're doing it. Forums are not representative of the wider population. Look people are not happy about this. The forums are where the dedicated community go. You have disregarded my comments earlier about Valve promising us content that has never showed up (And probably never will). Such as the 10 weapons we were promised (Now in the Sequel) the new campaigns (Now in the sequel) and new characters (now in the sequel). Even reputable news outlets that have tried the game are not happy. ArsTechnica even got an Interview with one of the Devs of the game and asked the blatant question: Why? http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/06...quel-to-ars.ars It is a good read. I suggest you check it out. And many expansions add extra content to the original game. This "Sequel" feels more like an expansion as it only includes new levels and items. There are almost no gameplay changes at all and any that have been included feel more like fixes against players who exploited poor level design such as Corner Camping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkburn Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 what? it's only larger by one campaign and 4 more weapons So ... it's larger. Why on earth am I having to continue typing the bleedin' obvious. It's a larger game than the original, therefore it is larger. It's not even a weird grammatical construct, it's just repetition. Larger game is larger. Please point out to me an expansion where you get more in the expansion than you got in the entire original game? Sounds like a pretty damn rare event to me, and one with very little basis in logic or economic prudence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 If they had of delivered what they promised us when we bought the game then this sequel would not have been larger. It would have been 35% of the size of the original. The fact remains we bought the game on good faith and received nothing for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sethos Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 This quickly turned into a tear-fest; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhapimp Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 So ... it's larger.Why on earth am I having to continue typing the bleedin' obvious. It's a larger game than the original, therefore it is larger. It's not even a weird grammatical construct, it's just repetition. Larger game is larger. Please point out to me an expansion where you get more in the expansion than you got in the entire original game? Sounds like a pretty damn rare event to me, and one with very little basis in logic or economic prudence. wtf is your problem seriously, this isn't an new game,just because it's "larger" game it's based on content and other things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkburn Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Look people are not happy about this. The forums are where the dedicated community go.You have disregarded my comments earlier about Valve promising us content that has never showed up (And probably never will). Such as the 10 weapons we were promised (Now in the Sequel) the new campaigns (Now in the sequel) and new characters (now in the sequel). Even reputable news outlets that have tried the game are not happy. ArsTechnica even got an Interview with one of the Devs of the game and asked the blatant question: Why? http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/06...quel-to-ars.ars It is a good read. I suggest you check it out. And many expansions add extra content to the original game. This "Sequel" feels more like an expansion as it only includes new levels and items. There are almost no gameplay changes at all and any that have been included feel more like fixes against players who exploited poor level design such as Corner Camping. When were these "ten weapons" promised? Which of these news outlets are "not happy"? I know Gabe mentioned they planned updates to many aspects, and yes, these have not all come to fruition. But such updates would have been nowhere near the scale of L4D2. And yes, there are gameplay changes, but obviously they're not going to be huge changes else it wouldn't be the L4D. Valve have also said they plan to continue updating L4D1 - it's not finished. Perhaps this complaining will make them do more than they originally planned. But you cannot really expect Valve to ferry out the entirety of L4D2 for free, or even for expansion prices. Note that everyone is basing their opinions of a pretty short preview of the game, months before release. We've only just been told about the game - you think they've shown us everything? If they had of delivered what they promised us when we bought the game then this sequel would not have been larger. It would have been 35% of the size of the original. The fact remains we bought the game on good faith and received nothing for it. 35%? If you're going to make up numbers, don't be unnecessarily accurate. It doesn't help your argument. Saying something like "twice as big" or something. Then you might get some respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 When were these "ten weapons" promised? Which of these news outlets are "not happy"?I know Gabe mentioned they planned updates to many aspects, and yes, these have not all come to fruition. But such updates would have been nowhere near the scale of L4D2. And yes, there are gameplay changes, but obviously they're not going to be huge changes else it wouldn't be the L4D. Valve have also said they plan to continue updating L4D1 - it's not finished. Perhaps this complaining will make them do more than they originally planned. But you cannot really expect Valve to ferry out the entirety of L4D2 for free, or even for expansion prices. Note that everyone is basing their opinions of a pretty short preview of the game, months before release. We've only just been told about the game - you think they've shown us everything? No they have not shown us everything but they have elaborated on what they have not shown. The game includes 3 new Specials, the first of which is the Charger that we have seen It includes 4 Melee Weapons, we have not seen the 4th yet It includes 5 new Campaigns and a New Game Mode (Which we have not seen yet) New Ammo that turns Zombies on Fire (Incendiary bullets) 4 Player Friend Server Joining (Should have been in the Original but whatever) 4 New Player Characters ALL content from the original game being in the Sequel (Gee, Thanks Valve I feel really great about paying for the original a mere 6 months ago at launch -_-) 35%? If you're going to make up numbers, don't be unnecessarily accurate. It doesn't help your argument.Saying something like "twice as big" or something. Then you might get some respect. I said 35% because we were promised 4 new campaigns. The 'Sequel' includes 5 new Campaigns. 4 + 4 (Original) = 8, + 5 (Expansion) Gives you 35% or 38.5% if you want to get completely technical. -_- Maybe you should stop making yourself look foolish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkburn Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 wtf is your problem seriously, this isn't an new game,just because it's "larger" game it's based on content and other things My problem is with people, like you, failing to look at stuff logically. You seem to be changing the argument now: I thought the discussion was about whether L4D2 is bigger than L4D1. It is. Of course it's "like" L4D1. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be L4D2. No they have not shown us everything but they have elaborated on what they have not shown.The game includes 3 new Specials, the first of which is the Charger that we have seen It includes 4 Melee Weapons, we have not seen the 4th yet It includes 5 new Campaigns and a New Game Mode (Which we have not seen yet) New Ammo that turns Zombies on Fire (Incendiary bullets) 4 Player Friend Server Joining (Should have been in the Original but whatever) 4 New Player Characters ALL content from the original game being in the Sequel (Gee, Thanks Valve I feel really great about paying for the original a mere 6 months ago at launch -_-) Seems like a pretty reasonable list to me. Note L4D came out last November, L4D2 comes out this November. That's not 6 months, that is 12 months. You don't have L4D2. You do have L4D1. You can continue playing L4D1 for the next six months and beyond. Nothing is stopping you, or taking your game away. Did you get angry at Valve for including HL2 and Episode 1 in the Orange Box with Episode 2? I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhapimp Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 My problem is with people, like you, failing to look at stuff logically.You seem to be changing the argument now: I thought the discussion was about whether L4D2 is bigger than L4D1. It is. Of course it's "like" L4D1. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be L4D2. what the **** are you talking about i only made 2 comments on this damn thread so how in the Hell am i changing my ****ing argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 My problem is with people, like you, failing to look at stuff logically.You seem to be changing the argument now: I thought the discussion was about whether L4D2 is bigger than L4D1. It is. Of course it's "like" L4D1. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be L4D2. Seems like a pretty reasonable list to me. Note L4D came out last November, L4D2 comes out this November. That's not 6 months, that is 12 months. You don't have L4D2. You do have L4D1. You can continue playing L4D1 for the next six months and beyond. Nothing is stopping you, or taking your game away. Did you get angry at Valve for including HL2 and Episode 1 in the Orange Box with Episode 2? I doubt it. I would not have bothered purchasing Left 4 Dead if 6 months later I would be told a Sequel is coming in November that includes all content from the first game. Duh. Once again need I remind you we were promised content that has yet to appear. Do you honestly think they are going to deliver everything promised in 6 months time when it is 100% perfectly clear from the ArsTechnica review that all those promised updates have become this Sequel, even Gabe there CEO was against it but is so spineless he has allowed his developers to taint the Valve brand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkburn Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 what the **** are you talking about i only made 2 comments on this damn thread so how in the Hell am i changing my ****ing argument Four. And two of them related to the size of the game. I apologize for singling you out, but I really fail to see how people can define L4D2 as anything but larger than L4D1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shockz Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Alright everyone, let's take a chill pill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbobiii Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Valve is collectively a very talented company that produces, in general, great games. Unfortunately I have to agree that, occasionally, published games and their users are ignored. DoD: Source was a good game that had a lot of potential. Valve then took a lot of aspects of the game in directions the majority of the community didn't want and then left it to collect dust while they focused on more popular (CS:S) or newer (TF2) games. As for the HL2 episodes... I believe they were originally supposed to all be released in a 12 month period. That was probably unrealistic to hope for given that all software development experiences unexpected delays, but several years later, I get the impression that they still aren't too concerned about getting EP3 out. I love killing zombies with shotguns, but, for the love of God, finish your promised HL2 content. And complaints about lack of L4D content are probably justified seeing as how there isn't a lot going on in terms on weapons, campaigns, or characters (which is basically the entire game). That being said, I will probably always love and buy Valve games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkburn Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I would not have bothered purchasing Left 4 Dead if 6 months later I would be told a Sequel is coming in November that includes all content from the first game. Duh. Once again need I remind you we were promised content that has yet to appear. Do you honestly think they are going to deliver everything promised in 6 months time when it is 100% perfectly clear from the ArsTechnica review that all those promised updates have become this Sequel, even Gabe there CEO was against it but is so spineless he has allowed his developers to taint the Valve brand. So you wouldn't buy a game one year, because 12 months later a better version might come along? I find that hard to believe. Gabe's quote was: "So we’ll do the same thing with Left 4 Dead where we’ll have the initial release and then we’ll release more movies, more characters, more weapons, unlockables, achievements, because that’s the way you continue to grow a community over time." Now, while that is fairly incriminating, that's about all they said on that topic. It doesn't specify a great deal, nor can you really take such a thing as an absolute promise - things always change in any business, and it's not sensible to purchase stuff on the belief/hope you might get more. Essentially, if I were purchasing L4D on the basis of what Gabe intimates, I would want a lot more guarantees. As it is, I purchased L4D anyway, and have been happy with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 (edited) You keep talking about using logic but you fail to use it your self, Or else you'd realize its not the fact its just a bit larger thats ****ing everyone off, its the fact it contains stuff that was pretty much promised to the people who bought the original, then to go and include the original content in a sequel is just pathetic. Milking the money cow.If you are going to tell some one to use god damn logic, use it your self Its only larger cause it contains the original content. Indeed that is true. If it didn't contain any original content. It would be a game without an engine, with only 3 specials. (No witch, boomer, hunter, tank, smoker) no survivor mode, no models for the zombies or sounds no props. This game is an expansion sold to us as a sequel. So you wouldn't buy a game one year, because 12 months later a better version might come along? I find that hard to believe.Gabe's quote was: "So we’ll do the same thing with Left 4 Dead where we’ll have the initial release and then we’ll release more movies, more characters, more weapons, unlockables, achievements, because that’s the way you continue to grow a community over time." Now, while that is fairly incriminating, that's about all they said on that topic. It doesn't specify a great deal, nor can you really take such a thing as an absolute promise - things always change in any business, and it's not sensible to purchase stuff on the belief/hope you might get more. Essentially, if I were purchasing L4D on the basis of what Gabe intimates, I would want a lot more guarantees. As it is, I purchased L4D anyway, and have been happy with it. First of all. When a CEO of a company promises the community something you take him at his word. And it is common behaviour for their company. So not only were we actually promised it but it was backed up by all their other titles that have continually received updates. TF2 being the prime example and to a lesser extent DOD:S and CS:S. And I am sure you are happy with the game, but how much did you pay for the game? - ?26.99 maybe? That was the common price after a month in retail stores and amazon/play.com - But the first people to purchase paid the full whack of ?39 or ?43 if you bought it via Steam. And I wouldn't buy a game if a sequel is 12 months away with everything in the original game. That would just be stupid. Also where is the SDK? - Promised and as yet still undelivered I believe. (Correct me if I'm wrong on that). Edited June 5, 2009 by shockz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkburn Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Indeed that is true. If it didn't contain any original content. It would be a game without an engine, with only 3 specials. (No witch, boomer, hunter, tank, smoker) no survivor mode, no models for the zombies or sounds no props. This game is an expansion sold to us as a sequel. I don't understand what you're saying. Both L4D games contain entirely original content. While L4D1 obviously laid the basis for L4D2, it's not reasonable to expect everything to change in a sequel. It's still a zombie game, with zombies and guns. Note: is there a source for the specificity over the number of weapons and campaigns that were "promised" to be added? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhapimp Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I don't understand what you're saying. Both L4D games contain entirely original content.While L4D1 obviously laid the basis for L4D2, it's not reasonable to expect everything to change in a sequel. It's still a zombie game, with zombies and guns. a new look isn't original it's all the same on the inside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nw2001 Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I don't understand what you're saying. Both L4D games contain entirely original content.While L4D1 obviously laid the basis for L4D2, it's not reasonable to expect everything to change in a sequel. It's still a zombie game, with zombies and guns. That doesnt even make sense. The developers of unreal tournament didnt just use that engine add a few guns and maps and release it as 2k3, and when they released 2k4, which was widely seen as some what of an expansion they gave a discount to those who bought 2k3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ji@nBing Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Valve already said that the updates they made to the way the Director works were too signifigant to patch in. They originally wanted it to be DLC, but it wasn't possible, so they are releasing it as a new game. Given Valve's track record of supporting games, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sethos Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Saying Valve don't support their games ... Bwahaha :laugh: They are some of the 'best' in the business when it comes to offering free contents to constantly keep the game fresh. I think what Ji@n said is probably what happened, they probably blew up their own bridge, thus being unable to provide their usual support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Note: is there a source for the specificity over the number of weapons and campaigns that were "promised" to be added? It was promised to the Beta testers of the game at the end of the games development just before release. Specifically they were promised new Characters, 10 New Weapons, New campaigns. I do not have a source right now but I saw some direct quotes about what the testers received on the Steam forums in the new Left 4 Dead 2 section. Valve already said that the updates they made to the way the Director works were too signifigant to patch in. They originally wanted it to be DLC, but it wasn't possible, so they are releasing it as a new game. Given Valve's track record of supporting games, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on this one. Some people say the reason it cannot be DLC is because of the XBOX360 and Microsoft's limits on delivering free updates. And to that I say, make it a paid update. Charging us all over again for everything in the game (Engine and all content from the first game) is just stupid in my honest opinion. In software nothing is impossible they could have easily provided the extra characters in the original game as-well as Maps and other content updates. How hard do you really think it is to include some Engine updates (Which we receive all the time on TF2 like the recent Multi-Core rendering update) and some new Maps and Textures/Models/Sounds which is all this 'Sequel' is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkburn Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 First of all. When a CEO of a company promises the community something you take him at his word. And it is common behaviour for their company. So not only were we actually promised it but it was backed up by all their other titles that have continually received updates. TF2 being the prime example and to a lesser extent DOD:S and CS:S.And I am sure you are happy with the game, but how much did you pay for the game? - ?26.99 maybe? That was the common price after a month in retail stores and amazon/play.com - But the first people to purchase paid the full whack of ?39 or ?43 if you bought it via Steam. And I wouldn't buy a game if a sequel is 12 months away with everything in the original game. That would just be stupid. Also where is the SDK? - Promised and as yet still undelivered I believe. (Correct me if I'm wrong on that). L4D has been getting updates, many updates. Not as large as new campaigns or weapons, but it got survival mode and many other patches. I bought it on Steam, when it was first released. SDK is coming: it's just in beta atm. a new look isn't original it's all the same on the inside Er, right. What? It's really terrible when a game looks like the game it's sequelling? Valve already said that the updates they made to the way the Director works were too signifigant to patch in. They originally wanted it to be DLC, but it wasn't possible, so they are releasing it as a new game. Given Valve's track record of supporting games, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on this one. I believe this is very likely. It would likely have broken the original game. That doesnt even make sense.The developers of unreal tournament didnt just use that engine add a few guns and maps and release it as 2k3, and when they released 2k4, which was widely seen as some what of an expansion they gave a discount to those who bought 2k3. Do you know that L4D1 players won't get a discount? (Not sure what you meant about "doesn't even make sense") Some people say the reason it cannot be DLC is because of the XBOX360 and Microsoft's limits on delivering free updates. And to that I say, make it a paid update. Charging us all over again for everything in the game (Engine and all content from the first game) is just stupid in my honest opinion. In software nothing is impossible they could have easily provided the extra characters in the original game as-well as Maps and other content updates. How hard do you really think it is to include some Engine updates (Which we receive all the time on TF2 like the recent Multi-Core rendering update) and some new Maps and Textures/Models/Sounds which is all this 'Sequel' is. So you're ignoring the precedent set by the Orange Box, the fact it's more than just new maps and models, and how the new tech would require a major rework and playtest of the original game? Adding multi-core rendering, which is a graphics/physics engine upgrade is nothing like creating new game content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhapimp Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 L4D has been getting updates, many updates. Not as large as new campaigns or weapons, but it got survival mode and many other patches.I bought it on Steam, when it was first released. SDK is coming: it's just in beta atm. Er, right. What? It's really terrible when a game looks like the game it's sequelling? I believe this is very likely. It would likely have broken the original game. Do you know that L4D1 players won't get a discount? (Not sure what you meant about "doesn't even make sense") they won't valve said it themselves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Do you know that L4D1 players won't get a discount? (Not sure what you meant about "doesn't even make sense") If we get a discount I'll be happy. But it would need to be significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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