carmatic Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) ahh yes, i totally forgot the other implication of 'hardcore' ... gaming for hours on end in that case, there is probably enough neovascularization in your thumbs from playing on gamepads over the years , to sustain their constant actuation of the controls... since Natal focuses on the rest of your body, i can see how you would find it irrelevant... you have already admitted that you wouldnt want to continue for more than 15 minutes, i am guessing you are aware of your own physiology i agree, the dance mat analogy wasnt a good one, your meant to step on buttons and hopefully look like you are dancing in the process, instead of pushing buttons on your controller... and yeah it strengthens your argument for buttons too... but maybe, Natal will completely remove the need for dance mats , at least on the xbox 360 , who knows... you cant cheat by holding on a bar behind you anymore but i still think that backwards compatibility with all sorts of games will be fun, if its abit 'gimmicky' as you put it... Natal seems to be able to see the position of your palms well enough, and it also seems to be tracking your fingers as well... potentially that is up to 10 buttons , literally at your fingertips.... we just need to pay more attention to designing a control scheme.... its going to be quite a workout , and it might look abit abstract, for example you could assign your arms to be the two analog sticks of the control pad or something.... but it would definitely work Edited June 13, 2009 by carmatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted June 13, 2009 Author Subscriber² Share Posted June 13, 2009 ahh yes, i totally forgot the other implication of 'hardcore' ... gaming for hours on endin that case, there is probably enough neovascularization in your thumbs from playing on gamepads over the years , to sustain their constant actuation of the controls... since Natal focuses on the rest of your body, i can see how you would find it irrelevant... you have already admitted that you wouldnt want to continue for more than 15 minutes, i am guessing you are aware of your own physiology i agree, the dance mat analogy wasnt a good one, your meant to step on buttons and hopefully look like you are dancing in the process, instead of pushing buttons on your controller... and yeah it strengthens your argument for buttons too If I were to play 15 minute chunks of Burnout Paradise max per day it would take me ages to complete it. Different games cater to different audiences, it's not my fault if Burnout Paradise is a game that needs more dedication to complete and enjoy. That's not to say you can't spend 15 minutes one day and do a race or two, but that doesn't change the average length it takes to complete Burnout Paradise, no matter how I split up my daily plays it still mounts to hundreds of hours playing with motion controls to get all my licenses and unlock all the cars. What I'm saying is Burnout Paradise is not a title that lends itself that well to continous 15 minute chunks. Wii Bowling/A round of Tiger Woods/Football game or something else does that much better. These games don't have "goals" or percentages to complete, a Wii bowling game with your friends is a completely independent experience each time. The majority of the time you load up Burnout though you're focussing on your licenses and getting more cars. If you're going to create a racer for Natal it has to be something simple, something pickup and play, an individual experience each time. Not something with deeply rooted "hardcore" and "completion" values. Of course those are my opinion, but I've seen so many people attack the Wii over the last few years for taking "hardcore" experiences and making you swing the Wiimote for tens of hours, I don't think I'm alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo003 Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Whats that got to do with anything?We're talking about Natal trying to replace control schemes for existing games. I said countless times unique software will sell natal, and that will sell it to me, not Burnout, things like Milo or other games that work great with it. I'm sorry but is natal replacing the controller for good, did someone from MS said they're not going to create controller for the next xbox or something. I haven't been reading too much now-a-days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ji@nBing Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 I'll believe it when I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted June 13, 2009 Author Subscriber² Share Posted June 13, 2009 I'm sorry but is natal replacing the controller for good, did someone from MS said they're not going to create controller for the next xbox or something. I haven't been reading too much now-a-days. Nah it won't be replacing a controller for good. This rumour is just suggesting MS will launch a new Xbox next year with Natal included as standard as opposed to it just being an addon. I've already added why that'll be a valuable solution for MS and developers alike - Install base with the hardware will end up much higher. There are 30 million 360's right now, that could be 30 million 360's all with Natal "next" generation, or as it will end up right now 30 million 360's with only a % of them with Natal. If developers have an install base all with the hardware all they're doing is trying to convince you to pickup their software. If you don't have the hardware they need to try to convince you to buy the software AND the hardware which is a bigger financial risk for them if say only 25% of your install base own Natal. Our conversations above just surround pre-existing software and how useful integrating Natal into some of these experiences will be. Not so much about Natal at all as a piece of hardware, as it is discussing how well particular software would work with motion input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spenser.d Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 If I were to play 15 minute chunks of Burnout Paradise max per day it would take me ages to complete it.Different games cater to different audiences, it's not my fault if Burnout Paradise is a game that needs more dedication to complete and enjoy. That's not to say you can't spend 15 minutes one day and do a race or two, but that doesn't change the average length it takes to complete Burnout Paradise, no matter how I split up my daily plays it still mounts to hundreds of hours playing with motion controls to get all my licenses and unlock all the cars. What I'm saying is Burnout Paradise is not a title that lends itself that well to continous 15 minute chunks. Wii Bowling/A round of Tiger Woods/Football game or something else does that much better. These games don't have "goals" or percentages to complete, a Wii bowling game with your friends is a completely independent experience each time. The majority of the time you load up Burnout though you're focussing on your licenses and getting more cars. If you're going to create a racer for Natal it has to be something simple, something pickup and play, an individual experience each time. Not something with deeply rooted "hardcore" and "completion" values. Of course those are my opinion, but I've seen so many people attack the Wii over the last few years for taking "hardcore" experiences and making you swing the Wiimote for tens of hours, I don't think I'm alone. For one, "hundreds of hours" to get all the licenses and cars? Really? I just beat Burnout, again, and my total play time was 20 hours and 3 minutes. That's about only 5 hours shorter than it took the first time I played through the game. And honestly, you could really only see yourself playing with Natal for 15 minute chunks? That's not even worth the device. I've played Wii Sports for hours on end with friends and could easily see doing that with Natal, and I was/am one of those people that attacks the Wii from a hardcore gamer perspective. Natal's not being designed for people to play for 15 minutes at a time, just like the Wii isn't designed for that. I think Burnout would be fun to play controllerless sometimes, but I would still complete most of the game with a controller. Not a big deal there. -Spenser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goji Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 If this turns out to be true, then I called it two years ago. The 360 brand is out there, strong and growing. There is no reason for a significant leap or revision of hardware, merely side improvements similar to the iPod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmatic Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 If this turns out to be true, then I called it two years ago. this reminds me, whatever happened to that 'Darwin' project that they were working on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo003 Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Even if they re-bundle it or something, it would be like what PSP-Go is to PSP. You don't have to buy it, it not next gen console its just there all matching & bundled up for your taste. And you can't blame MS & Sony for copying Nintendo?s motion control. If you're going to blame them then might as well blame every console maker for copying magnavox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_c_b Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 I can't recall where I read this statement, but I think you guys are getting caught up in the hype of the guys who designed this tech. They want to believe this is the future of all games control and they need you to come along for the ride, but they really don't have anything more than a vision of how it will work right now. MS got what they wanted, everyeone talking about a product with no release date and no price. We'll have to wait and see if anyone really cares, right now it's all wow factor and nothing more, on Sony's part as well. Both companies feel a need to ,as Neo mentioned, scoop up some of the money Nintendo is after and see if they can shoe horn this idea into a "core" gaming experience as well. Both will likely overstate it's importance until their solution hits the market and either takes off or fails. I personally think this is useless for anything but a casual game, but I'll be the first to admit if I'm wrong, but I just don't see this happening. If the rumor about a new console proves true I think it will backfire on at least the 33% of Xbox 360 owners who have experienced the RRoD. After 3 consoles I won't buy another Xbox product until it's on the market long enough to prove it isn't a piece of ****. And the guy with the big sun glasses they send out to show this, two weeks ago you guys would have called him a douche bag poser when you were denouncing motion control as a gimmick. I do love the ebb and flow of the gaming world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spenser.d Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 ^^^To be fair, if you would've joined us in the chat room during the conference, you'd have seen us calling him a doucebag while he was presenting Natal ;) And they absolutely are not marketing this as a total replacement for gaming control. I don't know where you're getting that. They're marketing it as a new gaming experience. They're very different concepts. And I'd say they have more than a vision, considering they have working hardware and software support for this already. I'm not going to fight this with you though. I think I've done so already. -Spenser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_c_b Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 ^^^To be fair, if you would've joined us in the chat room during the conference, you'd have seen us calling him a doucebag while he was presenting Natal ;)And they absolutely are not marketing this as a total replacement for gaming control. I don't know where you're getting that. They're marketing it as a new gaming experience. They're very different concepts. And I'd say they have more than a vision, considering they have working hardware and software support for this already. I'm not going to fight this with you though. I think I've done so already. -Spenser Actually we are getting multiple messages, that is part of the issue. One guy says this is the future of Live Arcade (Gizmodo article) and another guy says "oh yea, we can apply this for core gamers" (sun glasses douche bag, where the real gamer plays Halo 3 while you get to drive the warthog and spam grenades, we'll call it Driving Master Chief) and then the spin and speculation begin. And if you guys did call him a douche bag in the chat room during the E3 conference you have somewhat renewed my faith ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sethos Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 And if you guys did call him a douche bag in the chat room during the E3 conference you have somewhat renewed my faith ;) Let me give you a snippet of my Messenger conversation with two friends ( both 360 fanboys ), edited and translated. <The 'douche' walks on stage> Me: Whoa, the janitor just walked on stage Friend #1: lol, it's Mario with downs Friend #2: you gotta be kidding me haha Friend #1: I like his glasses 8-D Me: **** that, I'm getting Wii Etc. I think most people hated him before he even opened his mouth :| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remysaus Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 1up tard rumour to get some easy hits. ^^ this. rumour = do not believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunknMunky Veteran Posted June 14, 2009 Veteran Share Posted June 14, 2009 Love him or hate him, that douche is making more money than you guys, has a kick ass job and prob a hot wife/gf. Who is the real douche :p On topic, I don't see them improving the hardware to support Natal. It wouldn't make sense to beef up the specs for something which will largely be targetted towards casual gamers, unless of course its essential for it to work. Until there is something more to go on, I don't believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Lyle Global Moderator Posted June 14, 2009 Global Moderator Share Posted June 14, 2009 I'm going to go ahead and say no, for one reason, that in the video previews and the fact Natal already works on the Xbox360, basically being an add-on, much like the HD-DVD player, this will NOT be a "new console", but be future compatible with the new Xbox when it does release. Microsoft isn't going to demonstrate something that works on the Xbox360, say it will come out for it, and than suddenly say it will be a new console. Natal, when it does launch, will most likely be upwards of $199-$299 (US), almost like being an expensive add-on that adds a whole new functionality to the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunknMunky Veteran Posted June 14, 2009 Veteran Share Posted June 14, 2009 ^ They said Natal won't be any more expensive than their current cheapest model of the 360 iirc. So what is that these days? $199? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goji Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Is that the rumored price of the standalone IR device? this reminds me, whatever happened to that 'Darwin' project that they were working on? Duh they went completely wireless :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyLarry Veteran Posted June 14, 2009 Veteran Share Posted June 14, 2009 I might have been way off with the specs and the reason and everything else, but yep, I called it. :rofl: :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmatic Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Duh they went completely wireless :laugh: but...it... it is wireless... And the guy with the big sun glasses they send out to show this, two weeks ago you guys would have called him a douche bag poser when you were denouncing motion control as a gimmick. I do love the ebb and flow of the gaming world. in my opinion, i would call him a douchebag if he was just talking about it all the time... if he's showing off some actual technology, i'll be too busy looking at the technology to call him a douchebag but anyway, whats worse... 'bam!' or douchebag? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death Proof Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Bah ! Humbug ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tharp Daddy Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 This is a possibility, but i don't see it as happening. We haven't really seen anyone push the 360 to the limits yet, and putting out a new Xbox would cost a lot of money for Microsoft, and if i recall they have lost money on the Xbox 360 already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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