Miuku. Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Erm, this is not a legal suit filed in the court system. This is a complaint filed with a regulatory body (the EC). EC has legislative powers in the Union and has the ability to enforce them hence you can consider it part of the legal system. The EC has made its decision to move forward without Mozilla involvement and it seems wildly speculative to me to think the EC depends on Mozilla." Whether they decided to move on or not Mozilla and Google participating in the proceedings only re-affirms Operas case. My original statement still stands - whilst Google and Mozilla may not have been original filers of the suit, they have joined it later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techno_Funky Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Whatever it is Opera rocks my socks and I am using it. Besides It's a Dog eats Dog World, you need to survive in the market, atleast Opera is admitting it publicly unlike others. I am too with the ballot screen, let the end user choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmatic Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 A ballot screen is a good idea, have Trident there (since it is required for other stuff) and just use that to load up a page with download links for the other major browsers. The difficult part is defining what a "major" browser would be. Obviously things like IE, Firefox, Chrome, Opera would be listed, but so should others. So it really depends. i wish that microsoft worked with the EU abit more instead of just yanking their browser like that, they could have come up with a pretty neat solution that could change how the majority of people use the internet... like, this page that you talk about could be one mantained by some third party rather than Microsoft... they could evaluate every single browser submitted to them, and only make those available based on some criteria, like passing the acid test, security vulnerabilities, functionality, usability, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another Canuck Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 EC has legislative powers in the Union and has the ability to enforce them hence you can consider it part of the legal system.Whether they decided to move on or not Mozilla and Google participating in the proceedings only re-affirms Operas case. My original statement still stands - whilst Google and Mozilla may not have been original filers of the suit, they have joined it later on. The reason this boycott has been started against Opera is because they are the main party and instigators of this antitrust. Neither Mozilla nor Google would have started this. They are only now "standing behind" Opera in order to try and get their word in and so they can be a part of the remedy should the antitrust succeed (so they can say they were part of it for good publicity). It would also be quite ridiculous to ask people to boycott three browsers all at once (one of which being a major browser and the other growing rapidly). Regardless, Mozilla and Google have had very little involvement in the case anyways. Opera was the one who yesterday said that the "E" versions of Windows 7 would not be enough. Mozilla and Google have been silent since February, but Opera continues to push forward with it. Also, the reason a "ballot screen" would be a bad option is because a large majority of Windows users are average, non tech-savvy, Joes. Many people don't even know what a Browser is. They use it every day, but try introducing them to a new browser or asking them to choose between browsers... Have fun. I know, I've been there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rev Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 OT- Down with Oprah! Click Here hehe..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhapimp Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 i think it's all stupid it's there OS they can do whatever they want with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
code.kliu.org Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 EC has legislative powers in the Union and has the ability to enforce them hence you can consider it part of the legal system. Not that any of this matters since it's just a quibble over semantics and wording, but in the US, anything outside of the courts is not called the "legal system" and anything out of the courts cannot be called a lawsuit. Now the part of the distinction that does matter and that isn't just a semantic quibble is the nature of the proceedings. In a lawsuit, it's Opera vs. Microsoft, where Opera presents the case and crafts a remedy of its choosing. But a complaint is more like someone reporting a crime to the police, because this is now EC vs. Microsoft, with Opera playing the role of an initiator, and the EC is responsible for coming up with the findings and a remedy with an unknown and unspecified amount of consultation with the parties who would be potentially affected by this remedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmatic Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Also, the reason a "ballot screen" would be a bad option is because a large majority of Windows users are average, non tech-savvy, Joes. Many people don't even know what a Browser is. They use it every day, but try introducing them to a new browser or asking them to choose between browsers... Have fun. I know, I've been there. well, i would give another one of those car analogies, but i dont have a driving license... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR_Candyman Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 A major problem with the ballot is which browsers to choose. if you were to choose the top browser.. opera still wouldnt be on it.entire thing is silly. ummm...you said top browser...not plural, so no, it wouldn't be on it. But it's still one of the biggest browsers out there. I think just having IE, Firefox, Opera, and Chrome would be sufficient, maybe throw on Maxthon for good measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phend-one Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Why would you want to boycott Opera? For standing up for fair competition? For trying to get Microsoft to improve their compliance for web standards on their browser? IIRC Opera and Firefox have been striving to improve their browsers for a while. Acid tests, web standards all help designers. Only recently have MS improved IE. Opera's beef was because IE6 was not web standards compliant, meaning web designers had to write a whole bunch of ugly code to get their pages to look "normal" on a browser which had tons of security holes and was bundled with Windows which most clueless users would just arbitrarily use as default. The head of Opera is the one leading the community of web browsers to become standards compliant and working towards making a better experience for the end user. Now working with Mozilla (and a host of others) to develop frameworks on how this is to happen. What has Microsoft done for the web browser community? The general public only cares about checking their email on "whatever" browser is convenient. But if you're on the developer side, you care about how the viewer is going to view your site. If a site is not viewed properly, it could generate a potential loss in sales. Writing workarounds is time consuming and not an efficient use of time or bandwidth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
code.kliu.org Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Although the EC hasn't released their remedy yet, all indications are that they're going to go down the wrong path with either decoupling or bundling others, and in those cases, it's not clear how that's helpful to the user. Everyone seems to be looking backwards at an injustice that was done 10 years ago and that undoing now would involve unwieldy and Draconian efforts. The EC should instead be looking forward. For example, why did Microsoft originally bundle IE? They weren't doing it for the profit--IE was free! They were doing it because they thought that the web would become the Next Great Platform (and they were right, though it happened a bit later than they expected) and that as a platform company, they have to control that platform. Netscape had grand visions of the browser becoming a platform that would render the OS obsolete, and that was what scared the crap out of MSFT. Netscape was just a secondary casualty of Microsoft's primary drive to control the platform. Well, the Web has finally become the Next Great Platform, and instead of imposing Draconian bundling rules that try to address (10 years late!) a bygone issue, they should address the issue that is still relevant: that is, they should take steps to deny Microsoft power over the web platform. No amount of market share matters if you can't leverage that market share to control or shape the platform, and instead of trying to artificially drive down that market share, the EC should focus on preventing MSFT from using that market share to wrest control of the web as a platform. By making, for example, strict rules about interoperability, compatibility, and standards compliance. Or, most importantly, by doing something about Silverlight (e.g., because Silverlight is not available on Linux, it effectively shut Linux users out of watching NBC's webcasts of the Olympics); MSFT knows that it's lost the browser wars, so it's using Silverlight as its new attempt to control the web platform. Focusing on preempting future would be less traumatic for the users and also much, much more useful for the web and the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I am Reid Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 and the counter argument would me microsoft themselves. Opera is just doing what microsoft has done a hundred times before. Poetic justice nobody likes someone who just bitches about everything, regardless. Dont try to make excuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR_Candyman Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 nobody likes someone who just bitches about everything, regardless. Dont try to make excuses. lol, yet you defend microsoft, who has done the same thing countless times. I call people like you a hypocrite, because you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I am Reid Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) lol, yet you defend microsoft, who has done the same thing countless times. I call people like you a hypocrite, because you are. Where did I defend microsoft? Edited June 13, 2009 by Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR_Candyman Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 lol. Damn you people take stuff too seriously Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmatic Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Well, the Web has finally become the Next Great Platform, and instead of imposing Draconian bundling rules that try to address (10 years late!) a bygone issue, they should address the issue that is still relevant one way they could do that is by hosting a specific webpage containing links to reasonably good browsers that they approve... for the IE-less versions of Windows, they could do something like a web installer which presents the users with the browser list pulled from the website... it would foster adherence to common standards because there is no dominant browser any more, remember 10 years ago all those pages with that 'best viewed with internet explorer' graphic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inklin Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Well I removed Opera from this computer (not that I used it anyway). I do hope Opera crash and burn after this. I'm not saying M'soft shouldn't allow you to select your browser on install. The route they are planning with an 'E' edition of Windows 7 is really poor. But it is their OS and they should be allowed to do what they like with it to an extent and bundling IE with it does nobody harm! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisan Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Well I removed Opera from this computer (not that I used it anyway). I do hope Opera crash and burn after this. As I said before, Opera is still a great browser....just because the company itself makes some bad choices outside the browser itself doesnt make the software any worse. How many people refuse to use Diskeeper because the CEO is a Scientologist? Sure it ruffled some peoples feathers but its not like it made their product inferior to other similar products. EDIT: Proud to be using Opera and plan to continue using it unless they close the doors and stop developing it. As a matter of fact I actually got a less tech-saavy family member to start using Opera due to how good it works (they have used IE, Firefox and Opera and prefer to use Opera out of those three). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikh Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 I use opera everyday. I dont care about any complaining or anything. But people DO need to be aware that IE IS NOT SAFE. IE8 is moving in the right direction, but most "simple" users(the people that get home connect to internet and thats it) use whats installed. The bad thing about that is, when there identity gets traced or whatnot, its the browsers fault. IE has ALWAYS been at fault for this. Other browsers have been recommended for the added security. I mean Firefox, Opera, Safari, Chrome, etc. I would rather trust anything else BUT IE. I do like IE8 but there reputation eh no. Ill use it for stuff opera wont load but if its osmething like confidential, ill use opera or chrome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Spork) Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 LOL @ opera it's MS own OS that they built ......... WHY in the hell would they not include IE8 ill still to my firefox people go after MS just like they do wal-mart Etc etc ..... BIG COMPANIES with BIG MONEY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis W. Veteran Posted June 13, 2009 Veteran Share Posted June 13, 2009 Despite what they have done, I use their browser because it is good, not because I agree with what they do. Agreed. This boycott business is just silly and Opera's actions are pushing it a bit. But Opera's a good browser* and I can't be bothered by a group of lulzy 'activists' to change my browsing habits. *until it starts glitching on sites :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PricklyPoo Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Good browser, what do I care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhangm Supervisor Posted June 13, 2009 Supervisor Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) Can I point out here that Opera doesn't give a flying **** about Firefox, Chrome, Safari, or * Browser? It doesn't care about anything here but getting itself bundled into Windows to increase its market share by forced exposure. This is no more noble a deed than Microsoft did when it decided to bundle IE with Windows. Edited June 13, 2009 by Mathachew Do not circumvent the swear filter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ji@nBing Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 LMAO. Had a few beers tonight and read the title as "Down with Oprah!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berserk87 Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Microsoft gets criticized every time a virus or a exploit comes out, yet other companies are trying to force them to bundle third party software?! are you people touched in the head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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