Sethos Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Try this, find a game with a "real" character, not a plain 2D surface face like the Spartans in Halo 3 and stand in a position like the Screenshot you posted, not an inch away from molesting your TV. That should keep you busy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imran Hussain Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 A better argument to prove that the demo was stage would have been how Milo reacts quickly to fetch the paper drawing from her, before she even shows it to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trong Posted June 19, 2009 Author Share Posted June 19, 2009 As I said in the edit, difference between perceived and actually looking at you. by tracking your head, the screen actually creates 3D depth without needing to be an actual screen, and it then looks at you without the artificial looking straight at you in a deformed way you get in your example. I know you said it'll make a 3D screen for the player, which is actually really cool. But this is from a 3rd party observer so we should still see a plain 2D image from the camera's POV. EDIT: Wait, I might've paused the video too soon. Try this, find a game with a "real" character, not a plain 2D surface face like the Spartans in Halo 3 and stand in a position like the Screenshot you posted, not an inch away from molesting your TV. That should keep you busy. Are you going keep coming in here to bug me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xilo Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Edit: Someone beat me to the Wiimote vid. Didn't notice :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I know you said it'll make a 3D screen for the player, which is actually really cool. But this is from a 3rd party observer so we should still see a plain 2D image from the camera's POV. EDIT: Wait, I might've paused the video too soon.Are you going keep coming in here to bug me? As the guy in the video explained. it'll be a 3D view for the player, but a faulty view angle for the 3rd party observer... kind of like in the Natal demo... either way why would they have staged it. We know it all works, at least on a basic level, and we know that with an engineer massaging the AI data (the did it with the first milo demo's, though it seems from the later interviews they stopped doing it, and thus the AI quality also understandably dropped) to make sure it learns properly and understands properly what you say and responds apropriately. So while the demo video most definately had a higher level of scripting in it than the live demo's and also definately had an AI engineer monitoring and correcting it, it didn't do anything natal couldn't do with that help. so why would they stage it. why put work into faking something they had the capability to do correctly. Also you have to remember that since natal tracks the player, Milo will probably look to the side if the player is to the side, even if that to the player doesn't looks like he's looking straight at her but to her side, due to the nature of the viewport. but then you have to remember the power of the brain, while it may appear like someone is looking at you all the time if they look straight forward on a tv screen, the brain knows he's not looking at you when you're to the side if it due to the position of the tv and all that. by looking slightly sideways the brain actually gets tricked into thinking he is looking at you. and it has the advantage that for third party observers, it actually does look like he's following you and looking at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead_Monkey Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 To get a decent image in the video the image on the display would be a "simulated picture" anyway. At the very least, they would be recording the video output as she interacts with it, then pushing that recording back into the video of her playing the game so that it would look clear. This is going to result in distortion of perspective in the image shown on the screen. I understand your point, but it's ignoring the technical realities of showing video like that. Look at the bottom edge of the video on the "plasma display," there's some aliasing there that wouldn't be present in a real video, and there's a total absence of scan problems and glare issues that you get photographing or videoing a display in real life (like your shots of master chief). It's a "bullvideo" by nature that's just the way these things are done (you'll see similar things in Nintendo Wii shots that show a person and the screen in the same shot, of course, they won't ever show something like that because the actors have no idea how to interact with the game in the first place). The real key to the video is that she knows what the limitations are in the Milo alpha, she's avoiding them, and to avoid any unexpected problems in the Natal tech at the show, they presented it on video. When actual journalists interacted with it and tried to break it, they broke it, but also indicated that it worked in some respects, and was an impressive demo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boz Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 So IGN is lying? http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/991/991348p1.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trong Posted June 20, 2009 Author Share Posted June 20, 2009 So IGN is lying?http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/991/991348p1.html So did you read any of my posts? Maybe I shouldn't have used the word staged but I thought you guys would understand what I meant. Go back and read the posts before you come back and try to be a smart alec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giantpotato Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Also, the guy who did the wiimote 3d perspective hack was hired by Microsoft for project natal. It could simply be that for the video they set-up the virtual 3d perspective to track the camera instead of the player. In this sense it could be considered 'staged' but it was still actually working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeChipshop Member Posted June 20, 2009 Member Share Posted June 20, 2009 OP yes it was staged as you can indeed tell from the angle of Milos face, but video demonstrations like this are often staged for quality and control reasons. Slightly digressing but in the IGN review it says "Right now, Milo appears to pick up on inflections and tone of voice rather than the context of what's actually being said.", I am blown away by the fact that it can pick up on such subtle changes in the human speech pattern! One step closer to SkyNet :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMELTN Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Problem is, is that you have Masterchief facing straight towards you from the beginning. In the natal video, Milo is facing to the left, with the A-Cup model on the right. You need to redo your experiment, by having masterchief facing left, not straight on. Then back off your TV some, and take another picture. Masterchief will still be facing left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neoadorable Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 wouldn't be surprised at all if it was pre-rendered/staged what have you. I'd be really embarrassed if i was any of those people - the kid with the skateboard, the girl running on stage. No personal offense to them, but they looked goofy. If you ask me this whole Natal thing STINKS. i want my console to be the realm of game snobs and people over age 30. Down with the masses and those with more time left to live! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted June 20, 2009 Subscriber² Share Posted June 20, 2009 Controlled environment demonstration, not really staged per se. With such an early prototype there's bound to be a good chance of a cockup. No one really wants to see things screw up, well, fanboys would, but most other people want an idea of what they should get come release. When release is so far away all you can really get is an idea so keep that in mind also. There will be demos nearer release that offer more freedom. Gotta give developers the benefit of the doubt when they show stuff this early. You guys (gamers) "force" developers to show stuff really early as you're constantly spoiled with the leak-friendly internet environment. Then when stuff does get shown early you blow up in a rage fit of "this looks unfinished/unpolished/game is doomed/etc". So it's no wonder so much is staged/controlled when it's shown early, gamers struggle to take things in context so often. Well it's more an issue of realising the difference between constructive criticism/feedback and outright flaming/trolling/whining and being completely unhelpful to the devs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slayerx02 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 i thought natal gathers information like position,distance and overall shape of the object it sees with the cameras and actually puts them in the environment. so milo isnt looking out of the TV like it was a window, hes looking at the model as if shes in there in his virtual environment. your master chief example has him behind a glass wall looking out at you is why you get a skewed perception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houlty Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 firstly, Natal obviously works and the Milo demo works to some extent, as is proven by the people who have demo'd and commented on it. BUT, the OP is correct, as the woman looking at Milo would see what we see (i.e. the side of Milo's face) which would not be correct for her (she should be face to face with Milo). Just imagine yourself having a conversion with someone, regardless of where you stand if your looking at them face to face, you never see the side of there face like in the demo. So... it was either a pre-rendered video (with no interaction or tracking) -OR- Lionhead programmed the Milo demo to be rendered from the camera's point of view, and not the user's (the woman's) point of view. i think the second option is very possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo003 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Controlled environment demonstration, not really staged per se.With such an early prototype there's bound to be a good chance of a cockup. No one really wants to see things screw up, well, fanboys would, but most other people want an idea of what they should get come release. When release is so far away all you can really get is an idea so keep that in mind also. There will be demos nearer release that offer more freedom. Gotta give developers the benefit of the doubt when they show stuff this early. You guys (gamers) "force" developers to show stuff really early as you're constantly spoiled with the leak-friendly internet environment. Then when stuff does get shown early you blow up in a rage fit of "this looks unfinished/unpolished/game is doomed/etc". So it's no wonder so much is staged/controlled when it's shown early, gamers struggle to take things in context so often. Well it's more an issue of realising the difference between constructive criticism/feedback and outright flaming/trolling/whining and being completely unhelpful to the devs. Agreed (Y) So complain when natal doesn't show up in store in next year or so, until then we just have to sit and see what they come up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Veteran Posted June 20, 2009 Veteran Share Posted June 20, 2009 I know you said it'll make a 3D screen for the player, which is actually really cool. But this is from a 3rd party observer so we should still see a plain 2D image from the camera's POV. EDIT: Wait, I might've paused the video too soon. You're not understanding how it works. Here is a (horrible) diagram: The big white box is your room, the green box is your TV/Natal camera, the circle is the scene area, and the red oval indicates where you're standing. The system knows about the area in the circle that's shaded gray because that's what it's rendering. The area in yellow is like a virtual stage that the game engine is watching on the camera. Your position is included and mapped as an object just like Milo or the lake. Since the engine can tell where you're standing in relation to the camera it can plot the purple line and estimate pretty closely where to have Milo look so he appears to be looking directly at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houlty Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 You're not understanding how it works. Here is a (horrible) diagram: The big white box is your room, the green box is your TV/Natal camera, the circle is the scene area, and the red oval indicates where you're standing. The system knows about the area in the circle that's shaded gray because that's what it's rendering. The area in yellow is like a virtual stage that the game engine is watching on the camera. Your position is included and mapped as an object just like Milo or the lake. Since the engine can tell where you're standing in relation to the camera it can plot the purple line and estimate pretty closely where to have Milo look so he appears to be looking directly at you. yes, but the "you" he's looking at in the original is actually the woman. so... if Milo's looking directly at her she would see his face front on, not from the side. therefore, as a 3rd party looking in on the situation (i.e. from where the camera is), we should see Milo as he would be rendered for the woman (i.e. face on, not from the side)... as i mentioned in post a couple above though, it could of been that Lionhead programmed Milo to be rendered from the camera's point of view, and not the womans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo003 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Houlty the people who tried natal at e3 first hand aren't complaining and I don't think they are just average games either. So for them to say that it works that says something. Also what you're trying to say is correct that there's no way that she would be able to see Milo face to face, she would also see him looking towards her right side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houlty Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Houlty the people who tried natal at e3 first hand aren't complaining and I don't think they are just average games either. So for them to say that it works that says something.Also what you're trying to say is correct that there's no way that she would be able to see Milo face to face, she would also see him looking towards her right side. don't get me wrong, i'm really looking forward to Natal and am fully aware that it works. i'm not putting it down at all. all i was doing was pointing out what the OP was trying to say, as people just didn't seem to get it. thats all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 people and the OP are making one major mistake, actually it's two mistakes that are different sides of the same coin. 1: you assume Natal to be designed so it actually looks like he looks you in the eye, in that case he would allways be looking straight ahead like a dumb stick. 2: you assume the character(milo) isn't following the person instead of looking her in the eye. yes for a sofa game like Halo it would make sense to have the person look straight forward to look the player in the eye. But for Milo that doesn't make sense, if you stand to the side of the screen, yes, he'll sort of allways look you in the eyes if he looks forward, except the brain is smart enough to know he's not, unlike you point and shoot camera. For a "game" like Milo, it makes more sense for the game to not look you in the eye and instead have him turn his head to follow you around as you move in front of the screen. Partly because it makes it obvius Milo actually sees you and look at you and that puts you more into his enviroment, even if he's not looking you in the eyes, but rather would appear to you(as the player) that he looks to your side, though again your brain is smart enough to translate that he's looking at you, rather than to your side. much like the brain knows he's not lookign at you when he looks straight at the screen and you're to the side of the screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houlty Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Actually hawkman, you could also be quite easily wrong. There's one thing you didn't consider, which is that milo's face could always look straight ahead and that his environment and body changes perspective... Thus he wouldn't look like a dumb stick. It's all just theory at the minute though I suppose, and I accept yours even though I don't think it would feel right. All I can imagine it feeling like is speaking to the side of somebodies head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Actually hawkman, you could also be quite easily wrong. There's one thing you didn't consider, which is that milo's face could always look straight ahead and that his environment and body changes perspective... Thus he wouldn't look like a dumb stick.It's all just theory at the minute though I suppose, and I accept yours even though I don't think it would feel right. All I can imagine it feeling like is speaking to the side of somebodies head. No actually I considered that, but the brain would still not "believe" it when the angle towards the "picture" is as extreme as the one in the video. It liks looking at a picture where the people look at the camera. when you stand to the side of the picture, your brain knows they're not looking at you. As I said, it's not about making Milo look the actor in the eyes, but rather about making Milo look in the direction of the actor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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