Opera: Microsoft's 'minor tweak' of Windows 7 not enough

[Mike]

The reason Opera has no market share is the browser just plain sucks. I've used it, including very recently and even tried out Beta 10. Opera has major rendering issues and is very unintuitive for even basic task. It is a horrible browser, bloated, to many useless features included like a email client and bittorrent. I just want a browser and not the Swiss army knives of browsers.

Yes because nobody uses email or downloads using torrents! :rolleyes: The torrent download feature is pretty good for the average user who doesn't understand torrents, why would you need an extra application to download something from the internet?

Seeing as everyone keeps saying it, what are the major rendering issues with Opera?

[Joshie]

Well actually, they have laws against this sort of thing.

Well actually, your link isn't relevant. Oh it tries to be, but it continues to revisit the ridiculous equating of IE to a commercial product. Internet Explorer is not, nor can I ever remember it being, for sale. It's freeware. Tying involves--as your link explains--linking the purchase of one product to the purchase of another. That wiki in fact uses the word 'purchase' over and over again, even though nobody purchases IE.

This is a completely unreasonable viewpoint perpetuated by a case pursued by ignorant bureaucrats. If anything, Microsoft's defense that the browser is just another facet of the operating system--the defense that was REJECTED at the time--has become a startling reality in almost EVERY operating system at this point, culminating in the recent announcement by Google that they were going to make an operating system OUT OF a browser.

The past ten years of law suits against Microsoft has done nothing but cripple them in a market THEY created and allowed their competitors to pursue MS's own original vision. The whole thing is total madness.

[soonerproud]

Yes because nobody uses email or downloads using torrents! :rolleyes: The torrent download feature is pretty good for the average user who doesn't understand torrents, why would you need an extra application to download something from the internet?

Seeing as everyone keeps saying it, what are the major rendering issues with Opera?

Because I have a email and torrent solution and don't need Opera's crappy second rate email and bittorrent clients. I Don't want a one size fits all solutions as I found individual programs that are far better like Utorrent and Windows Live Mail. I personally use webmail and don't use a email client.

For starters go and start Firefox and then opera, go to most web sites and you will see large image based text in Opera is very blocky and ugly when you zoom the page in to 120%. Firefox renders it correctly but Opera does not. Then there are sites that just don't work well with Opera like parts of facebook, yahoo and other major sites. Opera has the worst problem with rendering issues of all the browsers I have used.

[zhangm Supervisor]

I can't help wondering whether, if this deal goes through and Opera gets bundled into Windows, whether they'd go back to being adware. I'm sure Google would be pleased by that.

[macrosslover]

Yes because nobody uses email or downloads using torrents! :rolleyes: The torrent download feature is pretty good for the average user who doesn't understand torrents, why would you need an extra application to download something from the internet?

Seeing as everyone keeps saying it, what are the major rendering issues with Opera?

I have to say there's not really such a thing as an average user and torrent. If you're advanced enough to understand torrents and be able to find them, you're likely to have a particular program for that.

[Denis W. Veteran]

What do you suggest we do? Ban Opera users? Ban talk of Opera? Start a petition of some sort?

I'll make sure whoever tries to ban me as a Opera user gets banned first. :p

I kid, I kid.

Yes because nobody uses email or downloads using torrents! :rolleyes: The torrent download feature is pretty good for the average user who doesn't understand torrents, why would you need an extra application to download something from the internet?

Exactly. With regards to this:

I have to say there's not really such a thing as an average user and torrent. If you're advanced enough to understand torrents and be able to find them, you're likely to have a particular program for that.

there are some sites offering large files which, when regular users click on the .torrent, anticipate that they'll start a download as if it's a regular HTTP file transfer. This example doesn't apply to just Linux distros which they probably have no knowledge of working with - for the old Autopatcher these guys used to have a torrent copy floating around, and Autopatcher isn't that much more complicated than a regular Windows installer.

Another bundled Opera feature that I use is its integrated IRC client, since I really can't be arsed to search for another client, and 99% of the time if I'm on Neowin's IRC server, I'm also on the forums too. So why not?

Seeing as everyone keeps saying it, what are the major rendering issues with Opera?

One major problem I keep noticing is Opera freezing frames inside a site, be it advertisements or say Neowin's forum RTE that doesn't really work properly.

They do fix some site specific problems from time to time; for instance, Youtube's dropdown menus and Neowin's frontpage menus used to not repaint properly in some of the weeklies until it was fixed in a later build - in the case of Youtube a new entry in the browser.js was added specifically for the menus. Facebook also used to have some problems with entering wall posts - again they also fixed it in a later build.

The point is, some people here tend to forget that these weekly builds are what you expect from pre-release software... but write it off as lousy finished code.

[Robomaster]

Strange, I thought Microsoft was making a new browser called Gazelle. :unsure:

[Denis W. Veteran]

I can't help wondering whether, if this deal goes through and Opera gets bundled into Windows, whether they'd go back to being adware. I'm sure Google would be pleased by that.

In this day and age, that won't happen. Simple as that. This isn't the early 2000s anymore.

[caerma]

Opera can shut up and go to hell.

[JustGeorge]

The name "Opera" holds the browser back from gaining marketshare. Thats my analysis :)

[zhangm Supervisor]

In this day and age, that won't happen. Simple as that. This isn't the early 2000s anymore.

I disagree, the early 2000's were a relatively innocent age of banner ads compared to today. A huge portion of the modern internet is driven by advertising. (Most) people accept this, they've been conditioned to. Look at Neowin's front page, or virtually any forum out there. You'll find banners, text ads, flash ads. Look at the Windows disk images used by OEMs, trial versions are basically an advertisement for a product, and the fee associated with getting the trialware onto machines is used to subsidize the final cost. Look at any search you run on Bing or Google, those featured results are ads. Ever use Gmail or Live mail? You get ads unless you pay a fee. Same deal with a lot of "free" downloads, where you first have to enter an e-mail address in order to receive spam. You see ads driving so many things online that you don't notice, because you've trained yourself to ignore them.

I remember when Opera was adware/shareware. People would fight to the death defending it as a way of funding the continued development of a "great product". Opera is scrambling here to market itself to a segment of users who don't know enough to make any educated decision about what browser they use. These are the very same people that punch the flash monkey, or enter their e-mail address to download a free ringtone. They're not going to complain about an ad-driven Opera if it is bundled with Windows, though they might remark that the logo of the internet has changed from a blue E to a red O.

The more I think about this possibility, the more it seems that there is no downside of it for Opera. What they stand to lose in loyal users today is peanuts compared to what they stand to gain from going adware.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Relativity_17

[Denis W. Veteran]

On sites, I agree with your viewpoint. I'm not sure how regular users would react to ads painted in a browser's chrome area though.

It would be odd to reintroduce ads into their browser, and still offer a content blocker which was designed to remove just that. :ermm:

[ScorpioRGc1]

I rather like the Opera browser (a lot more than Firefox or Chrome); its my backup browser to IE8. But good lord the people at Opera are morons!

[Jimmy422]

Pfft, opera is just butthurt because nobody uses their browser. Why don't they pick on apple while they're at it? Macs come bundled with Safari, and they don't get a choice of what to use.

[toadeater]

No it does not. MS was punished already for the 90s case by the US DOJ. This is an entirely new case.

MS got a slap on the wrist, nothing more. That's why MS's thuggish business practices continue. It's no surprise really, because MS is such a cash cow and political tool for the US government. MS is a sort of national resource that the government isn't going to mess with too much.

The same way Google cooperates with US intelligence agencies. LOL, you think this is all just business? No, it's politics too. Me, I only care about the quality of the software I use, and I don't like Windows very much--even though I have no choice but to use it on a daily basis. At least now we're not forced to use IE anymore, and that is solely the result of legal action, not something MS willingly agreed to.

[Jimmy422]

At least now we're not forced to use IE anymore, and that is solely the result of legal action, not something MS willingly agreed to.

We were never forced to use IE, there's always been an alternative since IE came out that people were free to use (Netscape, etc.).

[zhangm Supervisor]

On sites, I agree with your viewpoint. I'm not sure how regular users would react to ads painted in a browser's chrome area though.

Probably the same way that people react to the ads in MSN Messenger. Some people patch them away, others switch to something else. Most people don't care and ignore them.

We were never forced to use IE, there's always been an alternative since IE came out that people were free to use (Netscape, etc.).

Not true, Billy G was holding a gun up behind my head and making me use IE6. Tru storie!!!

[trag3dy]

MS got a slap on the wrist, nothing more. That's why MS's thuggish business practices continue. It's no surprise really, because MS is such a cash cow and political tool for the US government. MS is a sort of national resource that the government isn't going to mess with too much.

The same way Google cooperates with US intelligence agencies. LOL, you think this is all just business? No, it's politics too. Me, I only care about the quality of the software I use, and I don't like Windows very much--even though I have no choice but to use it on a daily basis. At least now we're not forced to use IE anymore, and that is solely the result of legal action, not something MS willingly agreed to.

Now I may be wrong in this, but you never were forced to use IE. No one is holding a gun to your head saying "You have to use Internet Explorer or I'm going to kill you". There are some situations like at work where you can't use a different browser, but from what I've seen most network administrators and IT guys put Firefox on those computers as well. So yeah, these days if you're using IE it's likely as not your choice.

[Eice]

MS got a slap on the wrist, nothing more. That's why MS's thuggish business practices continue. It's no surprise really, because MS is such a cash cow and political tool for the US government. MS is a sort of national resource that the government isn't going to mess with too much.

Sure, fall back onto the conspiracy theories when the facts don't fit your preconceived opinions. That's always a free get-out-of-jail card for every imaginable situation.

At least now we're not forced to use IE anymore, and that is solely the result of legal action, not something MS willingly agreed to.

I call pure and utter bull****. I've used Windows since 3.1, and at no stage throughout my decade-long history of Windows usage have I ever been unable to install and use whichever browser I wanted.

You're just another MS-basher who, ironically, doesn't even have the balls to tear yourself from Windows. Though I guess that's neither new nor surprising...

[Sciatic]

So according the EU I should be able to get a Mercedes Benz with a BMW engine? God help us all, seriously.

[zhangm Supervisor]

Windows users are "forced" to use IE, just like Apple users are "forced" to use Safari, and Ubuntu users are "forced" to use Firefox. No doubt Google OS users will be "forced" to use Chrome.

So according the EU I should be able to get a Mercedes Benz with a BMW engine? God help us all, seriously.

Why are you surprised? This is, after all, coming from the same political entity that banned the sale of cucumbers that were too curved...

[Sciatic]

Why are you surprised? This is, after all, coming from the same political entity that banned the sale of cucumbers that were too curved...

Don't hear much about the antics of the EU in Australia but that, and all of this is, absurd. Another reason to stay in Australia, consumer freedom from ridiculous Government decisions.

[macrosslover]

Don't hear much about the antics of the EU in Australia but that, and all of this is, absurd. Another reason to stay in Australia, consumer freedom from ridiculous Government decisions.

lol not fanning flames here, and purely in jest, but whoever does your game ratings or whatever is a bit extreme down there aren't they, I would consider that ridiculous government decisions.

[Sciatic]

lol not fanning flames here, and purely in jest, but whoever does your game ratings or whatever is a bit extreme down there aren't they, I would consider that ridiculous government decisions.

Now that is true. I believe some games that are sold in other parts of the world are even banned here due to the laws in place. Back on topic, I just can't understand the reason behind Microsoft not been able to package their Internet explorer in their Operating system. It just eludes me to the reasoning behind this?

[trag3dy]

Now that is true. I believe some games that are sold in other parts of the world are even banned here due to the laws in place. Back on topic, I just can't understand the reason behind Microsoft not been able to package their Internet explorer in their Operating system. It just eludes me to the reasoning behind this?

Opera wants money. They aren't getting it. That's basically what it comes down to. They're disguising it by saying Microsoft is stifling competition. Mozilla and Firefox of course, prove otherwise.