jnelsoninjax Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 MILWAUKEE, WI -- Police say two would be robbers are dead after a customer at the store they were trying to rob pulled out a gun and shot them. It appears it was an act of vigilante justice, and police are still looking for the shooter. It started about 10:45 Tuesday morning as an attempted robbery at a convenience store in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Police said the two suspects were wearing masks and gloves. They were both armed. "It was something different about them because they had the scarf over their mouth," says one anonymous witness. The shots came quickly. Police say the men announced they were robbing the store and a customer opened fire. "By the time I got to the door, that's when they had evidently got into the store and all this shooting, all this shooting and I thought, 'Oh my God, that's what it's all about, they were going in there to rob it,'" the witness said. One alleged robber was killed at the scene. The other was wounded. Witnesses said the armed customer chased him down the street. "He was chasing him and shooting him." The second alleged robber collapsed down the street. He was taken to the hospital where he later died. At this point police are not calling the deaths murders. Sharon Lawson is the mother of one the dead men. She identified him as Kenneth Whitaker, 28, who lived a couple of blocks from the convenience store. She doesn't believe her son was robbing the store when he was killed. "They said he had a bandanna and a gun. If he had a gun why didn't they shoot the other person?" Relatives identified the other man killed as Robert Givens, 22. Both men who were killed do have criminal records that include charges for drugs, weapons and theft. No one else was hurt. Hours after the shooting, police were still looking for the customer who fired the shots. Late Tuesday afternoon the SWAT team surrounded a home in the area. After a standoff that lasted several hours, police packed up without the suspect in custody. Source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Jester124 Subscriber² Posted August 20, 2009 Subscriber² Share Posted August 20, 2009 You know one part of me is shocked but the other part is thinking if this happened more often there would be alot less robberies happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceBreakerG Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Initially the customer was justified in the shootings, because at the time his life, and the lives of those around him were directly threatened. Where the customer messed up at was chasing the other guy down the street. He was no longer a threat, therefore was no longer justified in firing upon that individual. As a HCP holder, it's good we have that right, but don't abuse it. Either way, I agree with Jester124, if this happened more often, we'd have a lot less of these stories to report about eventually. Also, it's funny how the mother of the older victim "doesn't believe he was robbing the store." If this woman really that stupid? Why didn't he shoot the other person? Maybe because the customer shot her stupid son first? Hopefully she doesn't have any other kids, because if she does i'm sure they have criminal records too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyfrog Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 If he chased him down the street shooting at him it was murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimsland Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 So let me get this right ;) The customer was armed with a gun with the bullets already in and ready ! Saw 2 robbers come in, and then decided to open up fire on them to protect himself ?! Were they demanding his wallet? I thought they were robbing the store? Anyway, this is murder, not self protection Running down the street shooting could have even killed others The whole thing is crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrian Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Right, because if I was packing and I saw two guys come in to rip the place off I would SOOOO wait 'till they noticed me and trained their weapons upon me, thereby making it a retarded and life-threatening decision to even consider drawing my own weapon. I do agree he shouldn't have chased the other guy down the street, but otherwise I say bravo! This guy is a hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CL114C0777498D Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 people don't deserve to die for theft. often the middle eastern practise of cutting off a thief's hand is considered uncivilised, but in america they are supported in just killing them outright? it wasn't even personal theft, it was robbing the store. and the article just says they were armed, not necessarily even with guns. this whole thing is ridiculous. i hope they catch that murderous customer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caleo Global Moderator Posted August 20, 2009 Global Moderator Share Posted August 20, 2009 (edited) people don't deserve to die for theft. often the middle eastern practise of cutting off a thief's hand is considered uncivilised, but in america they are supported in just killing them outright? it wasn't even personal theft, it was robbing the store. and the article just says they were armed, not necessarily even with guns. this whole thing is ridiculous. i hope they catch that murderous customer. Not all cases of theft are simply theft. There's rape, murder, etc.. any of which are a legitimate reason to kill someone in self defense. You can never know what he's going to do to you after you give him what you have. I'd rather shoot him, defend my right to life, and do the world a favor than allow him to kill me AND get away. So anyway.. you're saying you'd rather risk being shot by two thugs than shoot them before they have a chance to shoot you? I don't know where you live, but in most parts of the U.S., a man is justified shooting someone if the person in question is threatening his life and has the means to do carry out that threat. Was he right in chasing the guy down and shooting him? No - but it's better that two thugs died than one of their victims. It's hard to tell how a person is going to react in a scenario like this. Adrenaline does crazy things and in the heat of the moment your judgment isn't crystal clear. A thug carrying a gun into a store and waving it around in a threatening gesture is a threat to your life. Respond as such if you're capable. It's not about justice against theft.. it's about justice against criminals. You don't know what these guys have done or are/were/will be about to do to you or anyone else. If they've got the means to kill people, it's legally acceptable to assume they will. Police handle situations similarly - if they're faced with a genuine threat to their life, they will shoot to defend their life as well as civilian lives. Edited August 20, 2009 by Caleo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerade01 Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 If he chased him down the street shooting at him it was murder. Correct. The first COULD be defended as self-defense. The second was just murder and he/she should be charged with homicide. The thing is (and would problably be semiright since this shopper did "protect" the others....Not all the way but....) the witnesses might refuse to speak therfore the case gets thrown out. People should just mind their business and stop snitching (IMO) Right, because if I was packing and I saw two guys come in to rip the place off I would SOOOO wait 'till they noticed me and trained their weapons upon me, thereby making it a retarded and life-threatening decision to even consider drawing my own weapon. I do agree he shouldn't have chased the other guy down the street, but otherwise I say bravo! This guy is a hero. Again no. You can only draw and use your weapon in self defense with a worthy cause. Example: If someone goes up to you and says "Hey give me your lunch money now" and he was a gun but you do not know he has a gun and it is stored and not visible and you have a gun, if you pull it out and kill him, you will be charged with homicide and NOT self-defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mokthraka Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Correct. The first COULD be defended as self-defense. The second was just murder and he/she should be charged with homicide.The thing is (and would problably be semiright since this shopper did "protect" the others....Not all the way but....) the witnesses might refuse to speak therfore the case gets thrown out. People should just mind their business and stop snitching (IMO) Again no. You can only draw and use your weapon in self defense with a worthy cause. Example: If someone goes up to you and says "Hey give me your lunch money now" and he was a gun but you do not know he has a gun and it is stored and not visible and you have a gun, if you pull it out and kill him, you will be charged with homicide and NOT self-defense. they all ready had drawn there guns. dosent matter they where not aiming at him at the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimsland Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 I wonder if a plain clothed policeman came in and drew his gun too Should everyone start blowing him away too (defense and all) You americans are mad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mokthraka Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 I wonder if a plain clothed policeman came in and drew his gun tooShould everyone start blowing him away too (defense and all) You americans are mad yeah I know? cause plain cloth policeman come into stores wearing gloves and mask. and just randomly point there guns at cashiers. hell I forgot I see that every time I go to the store Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob2687 Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 If the robbers were as trigger happy it could have been a gigantic bloodbath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhapimp Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 I wonder if a plain clothed policeman came in and drew his gun tooShould everyone start blowing him away too (defense and all) You americans are mad yes because were not stupid enough to not do anything when we see an random person pulling out a gun to do nothing you foreigners are Mad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimsland Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 The robbers wanted money And if the police did come in they would have said drop your gun They wouldn't have started shooting them like you guys think should happen first off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mokthraka Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 The robbers wanted moneyAnd if the police did come in they would have said drop your gun They wouldn't have started shooting them like you guys think should happen first off why so money can be ****ed away through the court and when they go to prision? they have already been charged with drug charges and all that. I dont feel bad for them. sorry once you get involved with drugs, theft, and assault you sign your life away. regardless if its because prison or death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimsland Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 That's called a kangaroo court Guilty before proven guilty in court Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsam Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 If the punishments were that harsh they would not commit the crime in the first place. Now that two people who tried to rob that store got killed, do you think anybody would try to rob that store anytime soon ? I think not ! Punishments are not an exercise to satisfy somebody's cruel desire but to instill the fear on consequences in a person when they think about committing a crime. Compare cutting off a person's hand versus 1 yr in jail with cable tv free meals a gym and a basket ball court. Boo I am scared to commit a crime ! people don't deserve to die for theft. often the middle eastern practise of cutting off a thief's hand is considered uncivilised, but in america they are supported in just killing them outright? it wasn't even personal theft, it was robbing the store. and the article just says they were armed, not necessarily even with guns. this whole thing is ridiculous. i hope they catch that murderous customer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CL114C0777498D Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 You can never know what he's going to do to you after you give him what you have. I'd rather shoot him, defend my right to life, and do the world a favor than allow him to kill me AND get away. are you suggesting we all start killing people based on what they MIGHT do? you're saying you'd rather risk being shot by two thugs than shoot them before they have a chance to shoot you? I don't know where you live, but in most parts of the U.S., a man is justified shooting someone if the person in question is threatening his life and has the means to do carry out that threat. that is a decision i would have to make at the time based on the exact circumstances. as far as i am aware, the customer immediately just started shooting. even if shooting were necessary - shoot to kill? the other robber didn't even fire back, he ran. to me it looks more like they just wanted money rather than to kill anyone. yet he was then chased down, and murdered. It's not about justice against theft.. it's about justice against criminals. You don't know what these guys have done or are/were/will be about to do to you or anyone else. good logic there batman. i think you'll find it IS about justice against theft. as opposed to justice against murder, or justice against rape, or justice against money laundering. they all require different responses. i thought that is why vigilantism is ILLEGAL. because it is not up to some random guy with a gun to decide how to punish some small time robbers. If they've got the means to kill people, it's legally acceptable to assume they will. almost every person alive has the means to kill people. it is not legally acceptable to assume they will. i assume you mean if someone has made a direct threat on your life, and has the means to carry it out, it is acceptable to assume they will. disputable, but regardless, from the information given, i do not know that such a threat was made. i assume it would have been a "give us money or we kill you" situation, rather than a "give us money and we kill you" situation. Police handle situations similarly - if they're faced with a genuine threat to their life, they will shoot to defend their life as well as civilian lives. so we should all act like police? i don't know about you, but i'm glad that just any random member of the public is not allowed to just shoot people dead whenever they think that a policeman would have done the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I am Reid Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 The robbers wanted moneyAnd if the police did come in they would have said drop your gun They wouldn't have started shooting them like you guys think should happen first off Thats in the movies, in real life cops dont say "drop it", you just get dropped instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScorpioRGc1 Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Give that man a medal. Maybe the next would-be thief will think twice if he/she knows there are folks around who actually have a pair and are willing to defend themselves. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CL114C0777498D Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 If the punishments were that harsh they would not commit the crime in the first place. Now that two people who tried to rob that store got killed, do you think anybody would try to rob that store anytime soon ? I think not !Punishments are not an exercise to satisfy somebody's cruel desire but to instill the fear on consequences in a person when they think about committing a crime. Compare cutting off a person's hand versus 1 yr in jail with cable tv free meals a gym and a basket ball court. Boo I am scared to commit a crime ! what is with this prevailing batman mentality? people commit crimes because they HAVE TO, not because they just enjoy doing it. studies have shown that increasing punishment does not lower the crime rate substantially, because the person committing the crime does not think they will get caught. if they thought they would get caught they wouldn't do it. there is a reason that theft is not punished by death in the courts. criminals aren't some coherent extremist group. they're individual people, living their individual lives, and due to individual circumstances, find themselves driven to these actions. when you do something wrong, you don't do it thinking ti's wrong do you? you find a way to rationalise it. in your head, you deserve that money, or you need it more than they do, or your actions are harmless in some way. should there be consequences? yes. should those consequences be decided upon and dished out by some random murderer with a gun? ....i don't think so, personally. it ruins legal hierarchy, creates anarchy and propagates injustice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyfrog Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Amazing how many people here are happily defending what sounds like nothing more than vigilante murder. Scary. This customer was not defending his or anyone else's life; he chased down a fleeing person and shot them like a dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biotoxic_hazard_835 Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 The guy deserves a medal and a cold beer. He just got rid of 2 cockroaches that sooner or later would have killed some innocent person on one of their robberies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerade01 Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Thats in the movies, in real life cops dont say "drop it", you just get dropped instead. You can't drop anyone until the criminal actually uses his weapon in a deadly manner (shoots). If you shoot a armed criminal, depending the situation of course, you (the cop) can be charged with a crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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