Wisconsin Shopper Kills Two Would-be Robbers


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I read the last two comments and you are both wrong

The analogy of no world tomorrow will bring on massive fear, where people will do things they normally wouldn't. And if the world didn't blow up, I'm sure there would be a lot of apologies going around.

So that's it isn't it. Fear makes us do things we normally wouldn't. Unless you try to become calm in the extreme cases (such as being at a robbery)

It is not right for the customer to decide upon themselves to start blowing two lives away.

The "robbers" could have just as easily robbed the store, and left. Who are we to decide that their life must end that day?

Actually some speak so poorly that they define this scenario that even if the robbers had gone home, we should go to their house and blow them away, for being repeat offenders or for being rich or for putting others in danger !?

The other analogy of walking across the highway is very similar. Drivers should avoid such pedestrians (even when they shouldn't be there) Drivers need to be aware when driving of any possibility where they may need to stop (ie if there was a crash further up the road, and the crash victim decided to walk down the road away from any burning wreakage, or even possibly walking disillusioned)

Again it's not their fault, it's your fault for hitting them. Unless you just couldn't stop.

The "customers" in that store should not shoot others, unless there was no other option

Had they shot someone already? No

Were they there to kill others? No

It wasn't even stated if they were pointing their gun at anyone.

Who made americans (and I say americans because generally across the world no one can kill others with a gun, even under self defence. A gun must be locked away at home, not loaded under your jacket!!!)

Who made americans judge and executioner?

Even one of the attackers parents stated they didn't do it (obviously they did) But these people may normally be law abiding citizens that did not want to die that day.

Yes they must be prepared to be shot at (by the police) if they came armed. But you never know (and we don't) They may have layed down their arms as soon as the police came. I would have. Who wants to kill someone. They just wanted to rob the store. Not kidnap, and not kill.

Taking the law in your own hands and killing others (who did have a life, and likely family loved ones) is not the way.

If others want to do this, then join the Army and go over-seas and shoot the enemy.

But don't shoot others because you feel that you can't remain calm

Edit:

Can someone please provide me the American law (in plain English if possible)

Are you guys allowed to walk down the street "packing" a loaded gun under your jacket?

And if so, Why? What would be the reason for having a concealed weapon (loaded gun) under your jacket?

You need to be aware that people (yourselves) can become uncontrolled if in the face of fear and or pain, and you may do something you absolutely normally wouldn't

Leaving the gun locked away at home, will cure this for you, ie you won't shoot someone when you don't need to.

Consider a teenager school boy being bullied or even bashed up after school. If the school boy had a gun on them he may use it.

This analogy applies to uncontrolled adults as well, leave the gun at home, else you may use it. Is that what you want?

Edited by kimsland
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Edit:

Can someone please provide me the American law (in plain English if possible)

Are you guys allowed to walk down the street "packing" a loaded gun under your jacket?

And if so, Why? What would be the reason for having a concealed weapon (loaded gun) under your jacket?

You need to be aware that people (yourselves) can become uncontrolled if in the face of fear and or pain, and you may do something you absolutely normally wouldn't

Leaving the gun locked away at home, will cure this for you, ie you won't shoot someone when you don't need to.

Consider a teenager school boy being bullied or even bashed up after school. If the school boy had a gun on them he may use it.

This analogy applies to uncontrolled adults as well, leave the gun at home, else you may use it. Is that what you want?

I can safely assume that they need a license to carry a gun, and therefore unstable adults and kids aren't allowed to carry them.

Why should a licensed civillian not be allowed to carry one, when he knows that guns are everywhere in his society, and many have been gotten illegally for illegal means. I'm sure this guy who brought justice on these criminals does have a gun locked away at home to protect his home, only it'll be a lot bigger and a lot more powerful.

If he didn't have his gun on him we could very well be reading 2 armed robbers rob convience store killing 12 people. But it's ok because on the off chance they get caught they'll go to jail, but will that bring back the 12 people they murdered? No! Much better the criminals face death than the innocent victims who didn't plan any of this.

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If this "hero" is such a hero, then why did he leave the scene? I bet you're not told to do THAT when you get your gun license.

So maybe he wasn't licensed? Or maybe he knows that chasing down the second guy IS murder?

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Can someone please provide me the American law (in plain English if possible)

Are you guys allowed to walk down the street "packing" a loaded gun under your jacket?

And if so, Why? What would be the reason for having a concealed weapon (loaded gun) under your jacket?

You have to obtain a license to carry a concealed weapon. They are generally very strict about who gets one. After you obtain a license, yes you can walk down the street with it hidden away under jacket. As to why you would want to.....lots of different reasons I guess. I know a few police officers who have them and they carry around them around off duty.

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Though I think he went a bit too far chasing the guy down the street, the courts are far too lenient. These people always get back on the streets, and they rarely straighten their lives out. They always go back to robbing or whatever. If they got shot more often, perhaps there would be less crime.

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Edit:

Can someone please provide me the American law (in plain English if possible)

Are you guys allowed to walk down the street "packing" a loaded gun under your jacket?

And if so, Why? What would be the reason for having a concealed weapon (loaded gun) under your jacket?

You need to be aware that people (yourselves) can become uncontrolled if in the face of fear and or pain, and you may do something you absolutely normally wouldn't

Leaving the gun locked away at home, will cure this for you, ie you won't shoot someone when you don't need to.

Consider a teenager school boy being bullied or even bashed up after school. If the school boy had a gun on them he may use it.

This analogy applies to uncontrolled adults as well, leave the gun at home, else you may use it. Is that what you want?

As much as I'd love to respond to your whole post, it rambled on for quite a bit. As such I'm just going to respond specifically to what's quoted above (This in no way implies that anything else you wrote is correct.).

If criminals didn't have to worry at all about the people they were robbing being able to defend themselves (Carry a weapon, etc.), what hesitation would they have in being more brazen? How many people would commit crimes that wouldn't, but now have nothing to fear, so why not? In Texas, where just about everyone has a weapon on them, crime is much less than in states with stricter carry laws. Gun control is not the answer, gun education is.

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Gun control will never work in the US... It's simply far too late for it. If you'd not developed as a nation where anyone can own a gun then it would work, but as you didn't, it can never work. The whole gun thing is just far too deeply ingrained in the American way of life.

So M_Lyons10 is right when he says that gun education is the only real answer. Alas, that's only ever going to work on the decent people, not the scumbags.

Not that I agree with the killing of these two robbers, especially the last one. But I can't really expect to fully understand a gun orientated culture when mine has never been one, just like you guys can't really understand our objections to it, not emotionally at least.

I still say, though, that by leaving the scene as he did, this "hero" knows he did wrong.

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People get killed during burglaries / robberies, so bravo to the shooter! If only more people were like this

However, chasing the guy wasn't that bright of an idea. You've already hit him once, he won't get far as he's bleeding out

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I don't normally get into these kinds of discussions, but the lack of knowledge in this thread really has gotten to me.

First things first - I support the 2nd Amendment (which, for those who asked, is why we Americans are allowed to own and carry firearms - it's one of the basic tenets of the United States - so important that it was the second amendment to our constitution).

I also own several guns and am licensed in my state to carry my weapon on my person, and I do every time I leave the house - for my personal protection, and the protection of my loved ones - this is my reason, though there are many others.

Second, laws regarding carrying firearms on your person and how you are allowed to use them vary from state to state. I can speak to my state - Indiana - in that we have what some consider some of the best laws regarding self defense.

We have the provision in our state laws that you can use deadly force to protect youself or another person's life when you feel there is an imminent danger to yourself or another person's life.

We also have in our state, a provision that is commonly known as "Castle Doctrine" which allows you to use deadly force in your own home or property to defend that home or property when there is imminent danger.

Third, the licensing of carry permits varies from state-to-state, but at minimum, most states require that you are fingerprinted for the local agency, state agency, and the FBI, and go through the same background check you are required to have when you purchase a gun, though it is a little more intensive in that they search criminal records, etc. to ensure you are not what the law deems an "improper person" with regard to being able to own a firearm. Some states allow open carry with no permit, while requiring a permit to carry concealed. Other states require a permit to carry regardless of open or concealed, such as my state. Other states do not even issue carry permits, or the permits are so hard to get that they are essentially non-existent (California and New York are two examples of this extreme).

Lastly, with regard to this specific instance, and without knowing the full details, I imagine that the first shooting incident in which he killed the first robber and wounded the second was perfectly justifiable in that they were showing weapons and were obviously an imminent threat. As for chasing the second robber down the street, yes he used very poor judgment and should be charged with a crime - voluntary manslaughter at the least. He endangered the public by purusing the robber into a more public area and firing upon him.

And a final note - people who are licensed to carry weapons are not the people to worry about. We are responsible in that we are familiar with our weapons' use, have taken the time to go through the official channels to be able to carry our firearms and use them in defense, and treat them with respect and caution.

Gun control does not lower crime and does not protect people. Most criminals do not acquire weapons through legal channels, so gun control laws do nothing to restrict the flow of weapons into the hands of criminals - they only restrict further the responsible, legal gun owner's constitutional rights to keep and bear arms.

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First kill was self defence, 2nd kill was murder as he ran after him with intent to cause bodily harm. End of story.

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<<snip>>

Witnesses said the armed customer chased him down the street.

"He was chasing him and shooting him."

The second alleged robber collapsed down the street. He was taken to the hospital where he later died.

At this point police are not calling the deaths murders.

<<snip>>

This idiot is going to get charged with Manslaughter, possibly murder because he chased the guy out to the store and down the street. Especially since he left the scene, that looks very bad.

VERY stupid!

I believe in self-defense and he would be fine if he had stopped after the first guy was down.

He should be tried for murder. Why couldn't he have shot the robbers in the leg or something, why kill them? He should've let the 2nd guy go, chasing him down the street was not right, the real sick freak here is the shooter.

It is next to impossible to actually hit someone in the leg, that is just in the movies, pure fantasy!

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None of this was self-defense. It's statistically unlikely that a robber like that will actually shoot anyone if you play your cards right. The first rule of being held up is to just give them the damn money and let them go. Don't be a hero. It's a convenience store, there's probably secret alarms and cameras all over the place, not to mention witnesses. The robbers would've gotten what they deserved, and they sure as hell didn't deserve death.

-Spenser

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None of this was self-defense. It's statistically unlikely that a robber like that will actually shoot anyone if you play your cards right. The first rule of being held up is to just give them the damn money and let them go. Don't be a hero. It's a convenience store, there's probably secret alarms and cameras all over the place, not to mention witnesses. The robbers would've gotten what they deserved, and they sure as hell didn't deserve death.

-Spenser

The standard in Oregon, don't know about Wisconsin, is "Would a reasonable person believe their life to be danger?"

The robbers were armed, so I would say YES!

If they had not been armed, then yeah, I would say give it to them and let'em go.

I wonder if a plain clothed policeman came in and drew his gun too

Should everyone start blowing him away too (defense and all)

You americans are mad

Well, if he:

1. Did NOT identify himself as a cop

2. Started pointing the gun at people

Then, yeah, he would likely get shot! That is illegal, does not matter if you are a cop in your day job or not.

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I also own several guns and am licensed in my state to carry my weapon on my person, and I do every time I leave the house - for my personal protection, and the protection of my loved ones - this is my reason, though there are many others.

Firstly let me thank you and others who explained the law of owning guns in America (in basic English, not mumbo jumbo legal words)

I wanted to give an example though that may cause you or anyone carrying a loaded gun, to possibly use it unlawfully.

If, a man walked up to your "loved ones" with you standing at their side. Then punched your wife directly in the face (stay with me on this ;) ) And then spat on her as she was falling to the floor; and her screaming words (of fear and pain) were "Help Me!" Would that make you pull out your gun and either threaten to, or actually, shoot the man who just did this?

Now I ask this, because this is my exact point. Under extreme fear (which could also be anger) or under massive pain, I believe that most people (possibly including yourself) will pull out a gun if they had one on them. This is because 1. You have a gun on you 2. Its very easy just to take it out (especially with your loved ones asking to be saved from some "bad" man)

Now, if you or some reading are honest enough to admit that you may (and likely will) pull out your gun, and possibly (in your mind) for protection, then this is the problem.

There is no need to kill someone who was not trying to kill you or your loved ones

Yes people can die from being punched. But in this case the screaming proved they weren't dieing.

People who carry (loaded) guns are putting themselves in a very fragile position, where they could use their gun when its just down right not required (ie a Robber running away down the street)

The example of some guy hitting your wife could easily happen at some nightspot club, where the hit may have been from a raged drunk, who was already in a fight. And you came in (unaware) at the wrong time.

The drunk did not want to die ;)

None of this was self-defense. It's statistically unlikely that a robber like that will actually shoot anyone if you play your cards right. The first rule of being held up is to just give them the damn money and let them go. Don't be a hero. It's a convenience store, there's probably secret alarms and cameras all over the place, not to mention witnesses. The robbers would've gotten what they deserved, and they sure as hell didn't deserve death.

-Spenser

Thanks Spenser, there was nothing to edit out in your entire quote. Everything is correct

Give them the money and let them go. Don't become like them and bring out your gun to threaten their lives. They just want money

Next time (god forbid) as a customer, lie low, and don't be a hero for a few hundred bucks.

Edited by kimsland
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He should be tried for murder. Why couldn't he have shot the robbers in the leg or something, why kill them? He should've let the 2nd guy go, chasing him down the street was not right, the real sick freak here is the shooter.

You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about, a shot like that simply DOES NOT WORK and are almost down right impossible on a moving target. On top of that lightly wounding a gun carrying robber is a bad idea, what if he starts shooting at everyone then?. Pathetic.

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He was fine in my book until he chased the guy down the street...

PS. Im all for shooting people in the kneecap rather than killing them, to bad its such a small target

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Firstly let me thank you and others who explained the law of owning guns in America (in basic English, not mumbo jumbo legal words)

I wanted to give an example though that may cause you or anyone carrying a loaded gun, to possibly use it unlawfully.

If, a man walked up to your "loved ones" with you standing at their side. Then punched your wife directly in the face (stay with me on this ;) ) And then spat on her as she was falling to the floor; and her screaming words (of fear and pain) were "Help Me!" Would that make you pull out your gun and either threaten to, or actually, shoot the man who just did this?

Now I ask this, because this is my exact point. Under extreme fear (which could also be anger) or under massive pain, I believe that most people (possibly including yourself) will pull out a gun if they had one on them. This is because 1. You have a gun on you 2. Its very easy just to take it out (especially with your loved ones asking to be saved from some "bad" man)

Now, if you or some reading are honest enough to admit that you may (and likely will) pull out your gun, and possibly (in your mind) for protection, then this is the problem.

There is no need to kill someone who was not trying to kill you or your loved ones

Yes people can die from being punched. But in this case the screaming proved they weren't dieing.

People who carry (loaded) guns are putting themselves in a very fragile position, where they could use their gun when its just down right not required (ie a Robber running away down the street)

The example of some guy hitting your wife could easily happen at some nightspot club, where the hit may have been from a raged drunk, who was already in a fight. And you came in (unaware) at the wrong time.

The drunk did not want to die ;)

Thanks Spenser, there was nothing to edit out in your entire quote. Everything is correct

Give them the money and let them go. Don't become like them and bring out your gun to threaten their lives. They just want money

Next time (god forbid) as a customer, lie low, and don't be a hero for a few hundred bucks.

You do realize that just because you pull a gun out that it does not mean that your next move is going to be pumping 7 rounds into the guy? It also makes a good intimidation weapon., on top of that, we have a stand your ground law, if someone did that in my state, and I pulled my gun, I could hold him at bay legally, if he ran I could call the cops, if he lunged towards me I can claim the stand your ground law and fill him with lead. Perfectly reasonable.

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On top of that lightly wounding a gun carrying robber is a bad idea, what if he starts shotting at everyone then?. Pathetic.

Seems to me a "Robber" running away is not interested in shooting anyone

Actually I think he probably feared for his life as this crazy "customer" tried (and successfully) to kill him

I do agree though, shooting someone should not be done by shooting them in the leg (they may even die from that)

If you shoot someone, you should intend to stop them dead

This is especially apparent when if you miss their leg and get their heart (ie moving target)

When you shoot someone make sure you realize that they may (and very likely will) die

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Seems to me a "Robber" running away is not interested in shooting anyone

Actually I think he probably feared for his life as this crazy "customer" tried (and successfully) to kill him

I do agree though, shooting someone should not be done by shooting them in the leg (they may even die from that)

If you shoot someone, you should intend to stop them dead

This is especially apparent when if you miss their leg and get their heart (ie moving target)

When you shoot someone make sure you realize that they may (and very likely will) die

True, but not everyone would run if someone opened fire on them, and if the person was dumb enough to go for a non fatal shot, even if he succeeded he may just get himself killed for not putting down the robber first, and get more people on top of that killed.

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As much as I disagree with carrying guns and shooting in the first place, if you ARE going to shoot someone who's also armed, shooting to do anything less than kill is very likely to get YOU killed and is pretty dumb.

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Firstly let me thank you and others who explained the law of owning guns in America (in basic English, not mumbo jumbo legal words)

I wanted to give an example though that may cause you or anyone carrying a loaded gun, to possibly use it unlawfully.

If, a man walked up to your "loved ones" with you standing at their side. Then punched your wife directly in the face (stay with me on this ;) ) And then spat on her as she was falling to the floor; and her screaming words (of fear and pain) were "Help Me!" Would that make you pull out your gun and either threaten to, or actually, shoot the man who just did this?

Now I ask this, because this is my exact point. Under extreme fear (which could also be anger) or under massive pain, I believe that most people (possibly including yourself) will pull out a gun if they had one on them. This is because 1. You have a gun on you 2. Its very easy just to take it out (especially with your loved ones asking to be saved from some "bad" man)

Now, if you or some reading are honest enough to admit that you may (and likely will) pull out your gun, and possibly (in your mind) for protection, then this is the problem.

There is no need to kill someone who was not trying to kill you or your loved ones

Yes people can die from being punched. But in this case the screaming proved they weren't dieing.

People who carry (loaded) guns are putting themselves in a very fragile position, where they could use their gun when its just down right not required (ie a Robber running away down the street)

The example of some guy hitting your wife could easily happen at some nightspot club, where the hit may have been from a raged drunk, who was already in a fight. And you came in (unaware) at the wrong time.

The drunk did not want to die ;)

I understand your point, and yes, there is always the possibility that in the heat of the moment, a reasonable person can do something that would be out of character for them, or is not an appropriate response for the situation.

Having said that, I do believe that in the situation you described, I would personally not draw my weapon unless I was in fear for my life - i.e. he had a weapon. As someone else said, guns are good for intimidation, but brandishing a weapon is also a crime, so there may be a gray area in drawing the weapon with the intent to just scare the guy off, especially if a reasonable person would not fear for their life in that situation.

Then again, I have taken several classes regarding self defense and do practice drills at least once a week to ensure I have those practices ingrained as reflex - specifically to avoid a situation where anger or fear might cause an inappropriate response.

First thing I would do is back the guy off physically and put some distance between himself and me/my loved ones. The last thing you want to do when you are armed is be in a close struggle where your opponent could get control of your weapon and potentially use it on you - this happens to police officers quite often sadly.

Off the topic of this reply to the quote, and to those that are asking why he didn't just wound the robber: You never use a firearm to wound, you use it to stop the threat - if the threat is moving, it's still a threat. Any self defense course regarding firearms will tell you that you shoot until the threat is gone.

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Well, if you pull out a weapon (the normal purpose of one being to maim or kill) and you are going to shoot someone it's probably best to make sure there is only one story: yours...

I think the guy did the right thing. If you were in this situation what would you do? Would you hide in the corner and watch someone rob the place with guns or would you act in the best way you possibly could to make sure you and everyone else there is able to survive?

We are now short two (2) idiots that weren't contributing anything to society. I am sure they won't be missed.

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You do realize that just because you pull a gun out that it does not mean that your next move is going to be pumping 7 rounds into the guy? It also makes a good intimidation weapon., on top of that, we have a stand your ground law, if someone did that in my state, and I pulled my gun, I could hold him at bay legally, if he ran I could call the cops, if he lunged towards me I can claim the stand your ground law and fill him with lead. Perfectly reasonable.

It doesn't matter if the sole intention of the robbers being armed was intimidation. Since they were armed they must be considered a deadly threat. Most armed robbers probably never plan on killing anybody, but that doesn't stop them from shooting people from time to time.

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As for chasing the second robber down the street, yes he used very poor judgment and should be charged with a crime - voluntary manslaughter at the least. He endangered the public by purusing the robber into a more public area and firing upon him.

I think all of us who support the right to bear arms agree with that. He really messed up when he chased the robber down the street...and I think he knows that now. That's why he's keeping a low profile.

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