tbandrowsky Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 I noticed on another thread here that there seemed to be a contingent of people that felt the Core i7 desktop processor was the same sort of a solution as a Xeon, and that a workstation is just a fancy marketing term that doesn't hold its weight any more. Neither are the case. A genuine workstation is a computer that has a server motherboard, memory and processor kit dedicated for primarily solo use. First is performance, another is reliability, and increasingly the cost of operation is a factor as well. Generally speaking, the server class box will perform a desktop machine on all fronts, and will probably be less expensive to operate and also more reliable. 1. The Core i7 does not have the memory capacity or bandwidth of the Xeon. The Core i7 has one QPI points, the Xeon has two. As a consequence, the Xeon can run DP, whereas the Core i7 cannot. The Core i7 does not support DDR 1333, the Xeon can. The Xeon taps out at 32gb/s, but the Core i7 dies at 25. If you want -speed-, then the Xeon is going to win and a quick look around SiSoft Sandra or even generic STREAM benchmarks bears this out. 2. The Core i7 does not support ECC memory. ECC memory is -nice-. 3. The Xeon does all this, using less power than the Core i7. Based on that, I think Apple is right to use Xeons in the MacPro. The problem with Apple is not that MacPro uses the Xeon. It is that the iMac uses the Core 2 Duo and it really should have a higher end variant that uses the Core i7. Also, it would be nice if Apple let you buy the DP board MacPro but populated with only one processor. That way you could start out with a lower end Xeon in one core, still be faster, and toss in another one when you get some extra cash. As it is, if you go through the work of putting together of Dual Xeon Nehalem box, and put it up against what Apple has for MacPro, part for part, the Macintosh could well do it for cheaper than you. At this point, Apple is not a dying company. They are one of the largest purchasers of PC components, and they are going to be able to use that leverage to get better prices from Intel than your online retailer could. For me, the attraction of the MacPro is that it is a workstation, not just for Mac OS/X, but for any operating system. I could have a boot drive for OS/X, a boot drive for Linux and a boot drive for Windows 7 Ultimate, all of which would be 64 bit. Finally, the build quality on the MacPro is absolutely out of this world. If you are going to plough a giant amount of money into your computer, it should look like you did, and frankly, Apple has no problem with that. The MacPro is the best looking workstation around. The case looks fantastic, is well put together, the inside of the computer looks amazing. Everything is organized. It's just a great machine. For the life of me I can't understand why PC makers do not see that intangible factors that Apple so effortlessly hits have real value. Why, oh why, I ask, must Dell and HP have workstation PCs that look like junk. They are $5000 machines. They -should- look good. The Dell workstations look like gamers boxes.... its a total joke, and the HP just screams "I am plastic." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Neo Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Apple uses the Core 2 Duo in the iMac because the mobile variant of the Core i7 has just been released. Due to heat they can't put desktop class chips. I'm pretty satisfied with my Mac Pro. (It's Mac Pro btw, not MacPro) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahhell Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Who cares what it looks like!!!! PCs with Xeons are supposed to be workhorses or servers. Not shiny toys. I don't get the point of this thread at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Neo Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Who cares what it looks like!!!!PCs with Xeons are supposed to be workhorses or servers. Not shiny toys. A great deal of people actually. Even here around this forum quite a few people invest in what their PCs look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I noticed on another thread here that there seemed to be a contingent of people that felt the Core i7 desktop processor was the same sort of a solution as a Xeon, and that a workstation is just a fancy marketing term that doesn't hold its weight any more. Neither are the case. A genuine workstation is a computer that has a server motherboard, memory and processor kit dedicated for primarily solo use. First is performance, another is reliability, and increasingly the cost of operation is a factor as well. Generally speaking, the server class box will perform a desktop machine on all fronts, and will probably be less expensive to operate and also more reliable. 1. The Core i7 does not have the memory capacity or bandwidth of the Xeon. The Core i7 has one QPI points, the Xeon has two. As a consequence, the Xeon can run DP, whereas the Core i7 cannot. The Core i7 does not support DDR 1333, the Xeon can. The Xeon taps out at 32gb/s, but the Core i7 dies at 25. If you want -speed-, then the Xeon is going to win and a quick look around SiSoft Sandra or even generic STREAM benchmarks bears this out. 2. The Core i7 does not support ECC memory. ECC memory is -nice-. 3. The Xeon does all this, using less power than the Core i7. Based on that, I think Apple is right to use Xeons in the MacPro. The problem with Apple is not that MacPro uses the Xeon. It is that the iMac uses the Core 2 Duo and it really should have a higher end variant that uses the Core i7. Also, it would be nice if Apple let you buy the DP board MacPro but populated with only one processor. That way you could start out with a lower end Xeon in one core, still be faster, and toss in another one when you get some extra cash. As it is, if you go through the work of putting together of Dual Xeon Nehalem box, and put it up against what Apple has for MacPro, part for part, the Macintosh could well do it for cheaper than you. At this point, Apple is not a dying company. They are one of the largest purchasers of PC components, and they are going to be able to use that leverage to get better prices from Intel than your online retailer could. For me, the attraction of the MacPro is that it is a workstation, not just for Mac OS/X, but for any operating system. I could have a boot drive for OS/X, a boot drive for Linux and a boot drive for Windows 7 Ultimate, all of which would be 64 bit. Finally, the build quality on the MacPro is absolutely out of this world. If you are going to plough a giant amount of money into your computer, it should look like you did, and frankly, Apple has no problem with that. The MacPro is the best looking workstation around. The case looks fantastic, is well put together, the inside of the computer looks amazing. Everything is organised. It's just a great machine. For the life of me I can't understand why PC makers do not see that intangible factors that Apple so effortlessly hits have real value. Why, oh why, I ask, must Dell and HP have workstation PCs that look like junk. They are $5000 machines. They -should- look good. The Dell workstations look like gamers boxes.... its a total joke, and the HP just screams "I am plastic." First of all the word Workstation is just that a word which means a computer you do work on. It is just a marketing term to think otherwise is naive. The Core i7 and the Nehalem based XEON's are pretty much the same core logic they perform the same in standard benchmark suites. Having two QPI links does not increase the performance as the die is not able to saturate a single QPI Link let alone two. It only becomes something nice to have when using a Dual or Quad based CPU System (Not Dual or Quad Cores but Dual or Quad Processors). And even then the performance increase is negligible. The XEON processors to not use less power they are simply shipped at lower clock speeds which enables them to have a lower voltage and subsequently a lower TDP. X58 Core i7 boards support ECC Memory and almost all of them will run a XEON processor. The term 'Server Motherboard' is debatable. What constitutes a Server Motherboard? SAS Ports? RAID? ECC Memory Support? XEON Support? - My Core i7 motherboard has all of these. And also the Mac Pro board is a cheap Foxconn E-ATX board with a daughter board for the CPU's and Memory. It's nowhere in the same league as a board by SuperMicro or Tyan The build quality of the Mac Pro may be 'out of this world' but that is because it doesn't offer much expansion. It has only two 6-Pin Power connectors for high powered PCIe devices, only two Optical Drive bays, and only 4 Hard Disk bays. It also does not offer much in the way of RAM capacity. Check out the Lenovo D20 it is a dual socket XEON system with much higher grade components built just as solidly as a Mac Pro with a lot more expansion properties including a much higher watt power supply for all the expansion cards you'd ever need. And yes it comes with a Bluray Writer option for when you need to author some Blurays. Also your RAM information about 1333MHz is woefully outdated. I can happily run 2000MHz on my Core i7 and saturate that with the right memory benchmarks. Can have lower latency as-well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabron Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I disagree that the Lenovo D20 is best than the Mac Pro, first the lenovo is more cheaper but does not offer the horse power and software feature that you got with a Mac Pro. If I am a business owner looking for a professional workstation, the Mac Pro offer the best hardware and software solution. The support also that Apple provide is one of the best in the industry. I prefer to pay premium for a solution that last many years ahead than pay cheap for cheap durability and support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the evn show Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I disagree that the Lenovo D20 is best than the Mac Pro, first the lenovo is more cheaper but does not offer the horse power and software feature that you got with a Mac Pro. You can spec it to have comperable stats - it ends up with a higher price tag than a similar Mac Pro but will ship with a better graphics card and much better service agreements. If I am a business owner looking for a professional workstation, the Mac Pro offer the best hardware and software solution. Even if you're an engineering firm and need to run SolidWorks and Autocad? The support also that Apple provide is one of the best in the industry. When we're talking about business No it isn't: not even close. Their consumer support is quite good, their corporate support is either laughable or passable depending on what sort of requirements you have. Trying to standardize deployed software or stretch yearly purchasing budgets by timing upgrades: I can't think of a worse choice than Apple as a provider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccuk Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 <SNIP>As it is, if you go through the work of putting together of Dual Xeon Nehalem box, and put it up against what Apple has for MacPro, part for part, the Macintosh could well do it for cheaper than you. At this point, Apple is not a dying company. They are one of the largest purchasers of PC components, and they are going to be able to use that leverage to get better prices from Intel than your online retailer could. For me, the attraction of the MacPro is that it is a workstation, not just for Mac OS/X, but for any operating system. I could have a boot drive for OS/X, a boot drive for Linux and a boot drive for Windows 7 Ultimate, all of which would be 64 bit. Finally, the build quality on the MacPro is absolutely out of this world. If you are going to plough a giant amount of money into your computer, it should look like you did, and frankly, Apple has no problem with that. The MacPro is the best looking workstation around. The case looks fantastic, is well put together, the inside of the computer looks amazing. Everything is organized. It's just a great machine. For the life of me I can't understand why PC makers do not see that intangible factors that Apple so effortlessly hits have real value. Why, oh why, I ask, must Dell and HP have workstation PCs that look like junk. They are $5000 machines. They -should- look good. The Dell workstations look like gamers boxes.... its a total joke, and the HP just screams "I am plastic." Quite frankly, the Mac Pro is a really expensive paper weight. There is no real upgrade path for that machine. You cannot change the CPUs without going through Apple since they are a custom design. You can only have two optical drives and none of them are Blu-Ray burners. You only have support for up to 32GB of RAM. No SAS. Limited choice of graphics cards for content creation, even if you use Windows. The D20 offers the same speed CPUs, more HDD bays, more optical drive bays, more scope for adding newer faster GPUs, more USBs as well as eSATA... All for less money. @ Cabron: How does it not offer the same horsepower? Lenovo D20 offers much better value for money along with a much better upgrade path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 The support also that Apple provide is one of the best in the industry. I prefer to pay premium for a solution that last many years ahead than pay cheap for cheap durability and support. Apples support for consumers is cheap and decent. But for professionals and businesses they are not good. First of all the care only lasts 3 years from the date of purchase and that is only if you purchase the extra Apple Care package. It does not come default. Every machine ships with a basic 1 year warranty and 90 days of free phone support. Leading would be 5 years extended warranty and 3 years default which is in-line with Dell and Lenovo. Apple will not come to your business to fix any machines on-site. They make you come to there store with the equipment or box the unit up and send it to their repair centre. They do not offer temporary replacement units whilst your unit is being repaired. They do not offer cross shipping of replacement goods. They cannot offer 24 hour turn around on replacements. So to re-iterate. Apple Care = Decent for Consumers. Not professional or business users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyn Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 The XEON processors to not use less power they are simply shipped at lower clock speeds which enables them to have a lower voltage and subsequently a lower TDP. This is may be true for the old Xeon's but the new Xeon cpu's are different. They have an advanced energysaving scheme that Intel created. If the machine is not doing much it only uses 1 core at a certain speed, if it needs a lot of power it uses al 4 cores at a different speed setting. Quite frankly, the Mac Pro is a really expensive paper weight. There is no real upgrade path for that machine. You cannot change the CPUs without going through Apple since they are a custom design. You can only have two optical drives and none of them are Blu-Ray burners. You only have support for up to 32GB of RAM. No SAS. Limited choice of graphics cards for content creation, even if you use Windows. Changing cpu's in a workstation is something that goes through the OEM builder for nearly all of those workstations. It's all about controlling quality and making sure the machine will work properly with the new cpu's. The cpu's in the Macs are not custom design apart from the one in the MacBook Air. All other Macs such as the Mac Pro have ordinary Intel cpu's which you can also find in a lot of other non-Apple machines. I haven't really seen the need for blu-ray on a computer actually. The only thing that blu-ray is used for right now are movies, not something you'd built a workstation for, those machines are for professional use and not targeted at the home user. If you want, you can put a blu-ray burner in the machine but not via Apple since they consider blu-ray to be a bag of hurt. Supporting more than 32 GB of ram seems quite useless, if you need such kind of amounts you most likely be better off with a cluster. I haven't seen much workstations, even from companies like Sun, that support more than 32 GB of ram. The part about SAS is simply absolutely false. The machines are sata by default but you can choose SAS disks if you want. The only requirement for SAS is the Mac Pro RAID-card. If you think that's expensive you can put your own PCIe RAID-card in the machine (and most likely end up spending the same amount of money). Since ssd's are becoming more mainstream a lot of workstation users are switching to ssd's (and in this case it's not about the amount of MB/s, it's also about things like latency). Leaves the graphics card and yes that is quite a problem.The choice is limited and the cards you can choose from mostly are consumergrade cards. Luckily they left the dual link DVI connector on those cards next to the new mini DisplayPort. It's not easy to exchange the graphics card for a better one since you need certain requirements such as a 64 bit EFI on the card itself. That is actually the only part Apple does differently from the rest of the workstation world. Go check other manufacturers like Sun and try to configure some workstations. You'll see quite clearly that the Mac Pro is not different in configuration and pricing, apart from the graphics card (those are easier to replace yourself in a non-Mac Pro). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 This is may be true for the old Xeon's but the new Xeon cpu's are different. They have an advanced energysaving scheme that Intel created. If the machine is not doing much it only uses 1 core at a certain speed, if it needs a lot of power it uses al 4 cores at a different speed setting. My Core i7 940 @ 4GHz hits 5 Watts idle with C1E so I don't know where your going with this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccuk Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 This is may be true for the old Xeon's but the new Xeon cpu's are different. They have an advanced energysaving scheme that Intel created. If the machine is not doing much it only uses 1 core at a certain speed, if it needs a lot of power it uses al 4 cores at a different speed setting.Changing cpu's in a workstation is something that goes through the OEM builder for nearly all of those workstations. It's all about controlling quality and making sure the machine will work properly with the new cpu's. The cpu's in the Macs are not custom design apart from the one in the MacBook Air. All other Macs such as the Mac Pro have ordinary Intel cpu's which you can also find in a lot of other non-Apple machines. I haven't really seen the need for blu-ray on a computer actually. The only thing that blu-ray is used for right now are movies, not something you'd built a workstation for, those machines are for professional use and not targeted at the home user. If you want, you can put a blu-ray burner in the machine but not via Apple since they consider blu-ray to be a bag of hurt. Supporting more than 32 GB of ram seems quite useless, if you need such kind of amounts you most likely be better off with a cluster. I haven't seen much workstations, even from companies like Sun, that support more than 32 GB of ram. The part about SAS is simply absolutely false. The machines are sata by default but you can choose SAS disks if you want. The only requirement for SAS is the Mac Pro RAID-card. If you think that's expensive you can put your own PCIe RAID-card in the machine (and most likely end up spending the same amount of money). Since ssd's are becoming more mainstream a lot of workstation users are switching to ssd's (and in this case it's not about the amount of MB/s, it's also about things like latency). Leaves the graphics card and yes that is quite a problem.The choice is limited and the cards you can choose from mostly are consumergrade cards. Luckily they left the dual link DVI connector on those cards next to the new mini DisplayPort. It's not easy to exchange the graphics card for a better one since you need certain requirements such as a 64 bit EFI on the card itself. That is actually the only part Apple does differently from the rest of the workstation world. Go check other manufacturers like Sun and try to configure some workstations. You'll see quite clearly that the Mac Pro is not different in configuration and pricing, apart from the graphics card (those are easier to replace yourself in a non-Mac Pro). Bit out of date but maybe I can add something to this discussion even if it is a bit late. The CPUs in the latest Mac Pro 2009 are Xeon's without the heat spreader attached. These have been specially sourced from intel since they aren't available in any retail channels I am aware of. Secondly, why you are applying the consumer need for Blu-Ray as my reason for wanting Blu-Ray in a pro workstation I cannot fathom. Apple are at the forefront of the creative video and film industry, and pushed the semi pro DVD authoring tools in Final Cut Studio. Blu-Ray is the next evolutionary medium, and as such, it is becoming essential to author Blu-Ray material. Given the cost of a Mac Pro, not having Blu-Ray as a BTO is quite frankly absurd. Thirdly, there are applications that would happily use 32GB or more of RAM in terms of simulations etc I don't see why you should buy a machine with a low ceiling and just make do, given the cost of it. Fourth. I said no SAS since it literally doesn't come with SAS out of the box, plenty of other workstations do, and it isn't even a BTO option for the Mac Pro. I say again, the Mac Pro isn't really offering very much for its money compared with workstations from other vendors. It is most certainly worth shopping around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyn Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 My Core i7 940 @ 4GHz hits 5 Watts idle with C1E so I don't know where your going with this one. I think you'd better ask yourself that question. The Core i7 and the new Nehalem Xeon's share the same core stuff. This is different from the previous Core 2 Duo/Quad and Xeon models that were based on the Core 2 architecture. One of the differences reside in the way the cpu is saving energy and that does not consist of shipping these cpu's on a lower clock speed. Bit out of date but maybe I can add something to this discussion even if it is a bit late.The CPUs in the latest Mac Pro 2009 are Xeon's without the heat spreader attached. These have been specially sourced from intel since they aren't available in any retail channels I am aware of. The cpu's are just the same as anybody else can use regarding the design. That goes for all Macs with the only exception being the MacBook Air which has a custom designed Intel cpu and the VT-x support in the 2,0 GHz Core 2 Duo in the early 2009 Mac mini (the version Intel sells to everyone else comes without VT-x). The heatspreaders on the Xeon are indeed true (for the 8-core version only as the other model does have the heatspreaders) as you can see in the Anandtech article about it. Do check the beginning of that article btw (and also how they managed to fry it :p), it mentions upgrading the machine which also points out that Apple is using widely available cpu's from Intel. The stock ones are slightly modified but that is something more manufacturers are able to do. Secondly, why you are applying the consumer need for Blu-Ray as my reason for wanting Blu-Ray in a pro workstation I cannot fathom. Apple are at the forefront of the creative video and film industry, and pushed the semi pro DVD authoring tools in Final Cut Studio. Blu-Ray is the next evolutionary medium, and as such, it is becoming essential to author Blu-Ray material. Given the cost of a Mac Pro, not having Blu-Ray as a BTO is quite frankly absurd. It isn't a consumer need argument whatsoever, it is how Apple feels about it. Licensing can be a pain in the ass for a lot of companies. There are an awful lot of lawsuits about licensing and patents. Apple doesn't like the licensing and so they are careful and apparently this results in not using blu-ray anywhere. It doesn't mean it won't work as you can buy your own reader/burner and hook it up/build it in. Thirdly, there are applications that would happily use 32GB or more of RAM in terms of simulations etc I don't see why you should buy a machine with a low ceiling and just make do, given the cost of it. The question in that would be if 1 machine doing everything is a wise thing or not. With those amounts of ram there are other problems like the OS. Fourth. I said no SAS since it literally doesn't come with SAS out of the box, plenty of other workstations do, and it isn't even a BTO option for the Mac Pro. I know what you said and it's correct. If you order the machine with the RAID card it will have SAS out of the box. So yes this is a BTO option. Other workstation have somewhat the same problem, you configure them to you liking. I say again, the Mac Pro isn't really offering very much for its money compared with workstations from other vendors. It is most certainly worth shopping around. It is always worth shopping around but don't be fooled you'll be better off elsewhere as this market does not have bargains. If you configure the same machine at Dell or Sun it'll be about the same configuration for about the same price. You can't completely configure them 100% the same which is why there are tiny differences in config and price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarpraz Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) I disagree that the Lenovo D20 is best than the Mac Pro, first the lenovo is more cheaper but does not offer the horse power and software feature that you got with a Mac Pro. If I am a business owner looking for a professional workstation, the Mac Pro offer the best hardware and software solution. The support also that Apple provide is one of the best in the industry. I prefer to pay premium for a solution that last many years ahead than pay cheap for cheap durability and support. Thought it was just a single processor machine though. <snipped> Edited October 28, 2009 by PureLegend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PL_ Veteran Posted October 28, 2009 Veteran Share Posted October 28, 2009 Apple uses the Core 2 Duo in the iMac because the mobile variant of the Core i7 has just been released. Due to heat they can't put desktop class chips. I'd just like to point out that the 27" iMac uses desktop class chips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabron Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I'd just like to point out that the 27" iMac uses desktop class chips. That's weird, they could use the mobile version of i7, because it use less heat than the desktop version. But because the 27 inch chassis is so big, it is basically considered a full class desktop computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 That's weird, they could use the mobile version of i7, because it use less heat than the desktop version. But because the 27 inch chassis is so big, it is basically considered a full class desktop computer. But the mobile version doesnt have the same clock speed ;) Moving to the desktop version was a very smart move, with 27" they have plenty of space Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I think you'd better ask yourself that question. The Core i7 and the new Nehalem Xeon's share the same core stuff. This is different from the previous Core 2 Duo/Quad and Xeon models that were based on the Core 2 architecture. One of the differences reside in the way the cpu is saving energy and that does not consist of shipping these cpu's on a lower clock speed. I don't need to ask myself that question, I already know the answer. But you do not. The cpu's are just the same as anybody else can use regarding the design. That goes for all Macs with the only exception being the MacBook Air which has a custom designed Intel cpu and the VT-x support in the 2,0 GHz Core 2 Duo in the early 2009 Mac mini (the version Intel sells to everyone else comes without VT-x). The heatspreaders on the Xeon are indeed true (for the 8-core version only as the other model does have the heatspreaders) as you can see in the Anandtech article about it. Do check the beginning of that article btw (and also how they managed to fry it :p ), it mentions upgrading the machine which also points out that Apple is using widely available cpu's from Intel. The stock ones are slightly modified but that is something more manufacturers are able to do. If you actually read what CCUK said properly he was only saying that Apple use XEON's without the heatspreader which makes upgrading difficult. He never made any comment about them using some kind of special XEON or a faster XEON or anything other than the physical heatspreader not being on the chips. It isn't a consumer need argument whatsoever, it is how Apple feels about it. Licensing can be a pain in the ass for a lot of companies. There are an awful lot of lawsuits about licensing and patents. Apple doesn't like the licensing and so they are careful and apparently this results in not using blu-ray anywhere. It doesn't mean it won't work as you can buy your own reader/burner and hook it up/build it in. And use it with what? Apple doesn't have any Bluray compatible software. Without support putting your own Bluray in is pointless. We want to be able to author discs. We cannot do that if Apple do not support it. I know what you said and it's correct. If you order the machine with the RAID card it will have SAS out of the box. So yes this is a BTO option. Other workstation have somewhat the same problem, you configure them to you liking. Other workstations include SAS controllers by Marvel and other companies. Apple offer no built in SAS and the add-in card is amazingly overpriced. It is always worth shopping around but don't be fooled you'll be better off elsewhere as this market does not have bargains. If you configure the same machine at Dell or Sun it'll be about the same configuration for about the same price. You can't completely configure them 100% the same which is why there are tiny differences in config and price. The D20 by Lenovo is a bargain compared to the Mac Pro. 4 Hard Disks only. No SAS built in, limited power for Graphics, no upgrade path, limited memory and if that wasn't bad enough consumer level warranty which is not up to par with Dell, Lenovo or HP for professional equipment in the same price range as the Mac Pro. If you got Lenovo D20 you could have them come to your place of Buisness to repair the system, within hours! you cannot get Apple to come out to you even if you paid them. They are a consumer company that somehow believes they can sell to a pro market without upping their support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccuk Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 <SNIP> Ok, thank you for pointing out things I already know. You cannot obtain the Xeons without the heatspreader through any channels that I have access to. They are clearly specially obtained by Apple. This means that if I buy a Mac Pro, I can't upgrade the CPUs, as you pointed out the difficulties in the article. Which in relative terms could have saved me a lot of money over buying yet another Mac Pro. The RAID card is ?560 on top of the already over priced Mac Pro, when the Lenovo has this built in without a card using up one of the slots, for much less. And that still doesn't change the fact the Mac Pro only has 4 internal Drive bays. Again, I cannot understand defending the Mac Pro against its competitors here. In terms of value it really is over priced. @ m.keeley: The Lenovo D20 is a dual CPU workstation, it is the S20 that offers a single CPU solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miuku. Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 If you got Lenovo D20 you could have them come to your place of Buisness to repair the system, within hours! you cannot get Apple to come out to you even if you paid them. Total bull. The last time a Mac broke at the office all I had to do was call the shop -> I had a courier come to the office in no time, take the laptop and return it the same evening. The machine was in working order, with all data transferred to the new harddrive as well. We have the same warranty from the shop as we do with HP, the same business day repair guarantee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Total bull.The last time a Mac broke at the office all I had to do was call the shop -> I had a courier come to the office in no time, take the laptop and return it the same evening. The machine was in working order, with all data transferred to the new harddrive as well. We have the same warranty from the shop as we do with HP, the same business day repair guarantee. Which shop. Not Apple thats for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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