g~man Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Because the industry standard is discs, the whole industry would have to change to SD supported media players for that to even be viable, over the next few years people are going to be flocking to cheap blu ray players which play.... you guessed it, discs.Why would they start selling HD movies on expensive 50GB SD cards when millions of people own Blu Ray players? By then Blu Ray discs will most likely be in the same cost region of todays DVDs, dirt cheap, whilst SD cards are still fairly expensive. A developer/publisher pressing 1,000,000+ copies of game wants to do it on the disc which might cost them say I dunno, 64p a disc in bulk, compared to an SD card which will probably be pounds. I really don't think you're putting much thought into your argument at all. u need a quick history lesson i think first off before i start... sd cards in 3 yrs time will be cheaper, a lot cheaper. and hd movies are not 50gb, but if they were it wouldnt be a problem now to the quick lesson. when tapes were around they were the industry standard, the whole industry changed to disc because it was better, cd's were more expensive than tapes... a new format was born *rings bell* class dismissed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted October 22, 2009 Subscriber² Share Posted October 22, 2009 u need a quick history lesson i thinkfirst off before i start... sd cards in 3 yrs time will be cheaper, a lot cheaper. and hd movies are not 50gb, but if they were it wouldnt be a problem now to the quick lesson. when tapes were around they were the industry standard, the whole industry changed to disc because it was better, cd's were more expensive than tapes... a new format was born *rings bell* class dismissed Yeah because SD cards are drastically better than Blu Ray discs, there's such a massive amount of reasons all games developers and movie studios will want to switch away from the industry standard to them. Not to mention everyone buying Blu Ray players just now and over the next few years totally can't wait to switch over to SD card players. I'll laugh when your predictions fail hard, I don't need a history lesson, I have common sense on my side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferret Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I won't be buying one - It'll be far to expensive for what it is ! Sound familiar ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spenser.d Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I'd probably just go with a standalone if it's that price, the 360 is quite noisy, unless the drive is cheap, like $100, it can get quite annoying when watching a movie. That would be some serious whack pricing though if a BR drive costs $100 and a hard drive $150. :rolleyes: If you have the volume turned up to anything you can hear, the noise from that drive will drown out immediately. The only place I've ever seen people complain about sound is in forums, during forum wars about consoles. I've never had anyone personally complain to me about the noise it makes. I'd like to see it priced around $100 as well, however I'll pick it up no matter what if it's cheaper than a standalone. The 360 is more capable a machine than any standalone player. -Spenser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George P Global Moderator Posted October 22, 2009 Global Moderator Share Posted October 22, 2009 With RPGs on 3/4 discs this generation, Forza 3 coming on 2 discs, you expect the next Xbox to go another "10 years" with a DVD drive, starting in 2013? Blu Ray readers will be peanuts in 2013.MS will add HD audio support to the next Xbox, you are not getting HD audio on a DVD. Multiplatform devs already do 7.1/HD audio on PS3 games, it's not as if it's just Sony 1st party doing it. It would be a pretty silly move not to put Blu Ray in the next Xbox, it's the industry standard, they'll have HD movie support, HD audio in games, and bigger discs for games. Blu Ray readers in the next consoles will be faster before anyone moans about game installs. The only people I can see being against this move are those that hate anything related to Sony, or the bunch on here who argued tooth and nail HD-DVDs would be a good choice for the next Xbox :laugh: It's just natural progression, nothing else, MS will keep up with the current trend, they may have tried to stunt Blu Ray by supporting HD-DVD but they're a business, they aren't going to think twice about including Blu Ray if it will benefit the next Xbox/Developers. And if anyone replies to me by saying the next consoles will be fully digital (no drive at all), :laugh: Why, and how did you make the connection from my last line as meaning they'd stick to DVD next gen as well? I never said that, and I didn't even imply that either. You know bluray isn't the ONLY optical media format out and in the works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tharp Daddy Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 They are going to start keeping PR reps with Ballmer at all times, that man can't be left to himself; always need someone watching him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted October 22, 2009 Subscriber² Share Posted October 22, 2009 :rolleyes:If you have the volume turned up to anything you can hear, the noise from that drive will drown out immediately. The only place I've ever seen people complain about sound is in forums, during forum wars about consoles. I've never had anyone personally complain to me about the noise it makes. I'd like to see it priced around $100 as well, however I'll pick it up no matter what if it's cheaper than a standalone. The 360 is more capable a machine than any standalone player. -Spenser Uhhh not everything you watch in TV/Film plays back at 90 decibels. I even hear my PS3 whilst watching some things. Not my problem you get upset at other peoples dislike of fan/operating noise, it's only relevant to my viewing, not yours. Doesn't mean I can't comment on it, and there are definitely other people doing so as well. Why, and how did you make the connection from my last line as meaning they'd stick to DVD next gen as well? I never said that, and I didn't even imply that either. You know bluray isn't the ONLY optical media format out and in the works. The only two physical disc based mediums being used in gaming just now are DVD and Blu Ray. Care to enlighten me what other mainstream disc formats there are to be used right now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George P Global Moderator Posted October 22, 2009 Global Moderator Share Posted October 22, 2009 Uhhh not everything you watch in TV/Film plays back at 90 decibels. I even hear my PS3 whilst watching some things.Not my problem you get upset at other peoples dislike of fan/operating noise, it's only relevant to my viewing, not yours. Doesn't mean I can't comment on it, and there are definitely other people doing so as well. The only two physical disc based mediums being used in gaming just now are DVD and Blu Ray. Care to enlighten me what other mainstream disc formats there are to be used right now? Mainstream, nothing, but we're talking next-gen aren't we? Or should we just freeze optical media development of any kind and keep bluray as the holy grail of media so you can be happy? 2013 is of course 3 years out, and tech moves fast as you and everyone else knows full well. And 2013 is the soonest anyone actually expects to see any next-gen system from MS or Sony out, (I expect a rehashed/updated Wii-HD before the other two). My point still stands, other optical media is working and being worked on, who's to say what will be used in 3 or 4 years time? My money is on HVD, which has a working standard and discs that can hold 500GB right now. A updated version can hit 1TB right now as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razorwing Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 unless it is necessary to play games, I won't be getting it because I already own a PS3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted October 22, 2009 Subscriber² Share Posted October 22, 2009 (edited) Mainstream, nothing, but we're talking next-gen aren't we? Or should we just freeze optical media development of any kind and keep bluray as the holy grail of media so you can be happy?2013 is of course 3 years out, and tech moves fast as you and everyone else knows full well. And 2013 is the soonest anyone actually expects to see any next-gen system from MS or Sony out, (I expect a rehashed/updated Wii-HD before the other two). My point still stands, other optical media is working and being worked on, who's to say what will be used in 3 or 4 years time? My money is on HVD, which has a working standard and discs that can hold 500GB right now. A updated version can hit 1TB right now as well. The most beneficial for MS is to use Blu Ray so their console can playback HD movies, it will also be very cheap in 2013. MS will use what is most beneficial to the consumer, and what is cheapest to them. An optical media that is just starting to be produced in the next few years will not be anywhere near as cheap as Blu Ray will be. An HVD capable reader? Say hello to MS' next console hemorrhaging money like the PS3 did putting brand spanking new optical technology inside. We do not need 500GB discs for games, let alone 1TB. Sony, Philips, TDK, Panasonic and Optware all plan to release 1 TB capacity discs in late 2016 while Maxell plans one for early 2017 with a capacity of 500 GB Do you also have any idea what it would cost for developers to put games on HVD discs? However, holographic drives are projected to initially cost around US$15,000, and a single disc around US$120–180, although prices are expected to fall steadily.[4] The market for this format is not initially the common consumer, but enterprises with very large storage needs. Yeah.... If your money is on HVD, you better be prepared to pay like the price of a nice car for that next Xbox. Edited October 22, 2009 by Audioboxer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George P Global Moderator Posted October 23, 2009 Global Moderator Share Posted October 23, 2009 The tech is always moving, as of early sept GE announced at the EmTech conference that they found a way to use moded bluray drives to read HVDs. The price numbers you give off for drives are from older info as well. But it's nice to see you at least checked the wiki for it. "The first products using the technology will be 1TB or multi-terabyte drives for archival storage and will hit the market in two to three years, said Peter Lorraine, manager of the applied optics laboratory at General Electric at the EmTech conference in Boston this month." "Consumer drives will appear about two or more years later. "We think there is consumer fatigue over changing formats. Blu-ray has two to four years of life to go. After that, consumers will be clamouring for terabytes of storage." So lets see, 2012 or 2013 for business, and 2014 or 2015 for consumer drives. Again talking about the bigger 1TB ones. The holographic drives have an access time of 3ms and data transfer rates up to five times faster than a DVD. And they can be factory replicated, making them suitable for ultra-high quality movie distribution. Which is no surprise that even Sony is on the HVD group list as a member btw. So to recap, using news from last month btw, going with what GE said, using a tweaked bluray drive, (hey look they're getting so cheap right?), they can get it to work for cheaper and hold way more, the problem was never the drives it was the discs, and they solved that problem, and made it so it's made like DVDs are now, which is good for movies as well as games. Saying a game doesn't need 500GB, how do you know what a game will need in 3-5 years time? Because the media itself can store 500GB to 1TB doesn't mean you have to go with the larger capacity disc from the get go. How many are using 50GB bluray discs? The fact is, and my point is as well, that technology is always moving, new tech ready to replace bluray is out and is working right now. Does it cost? sure it does, today it does. But in 2013 or 2014? You don't know what it'll cost, spitting out numbers from back in April doesn't help. How much where the first bluray players and discs before we got the PS3? Does anyone remember? For me it's simple, I look at the list of names on the HVD groups list, and I see all the big ones in media storage there. Trying to somehow write it off at this point because of costs (all new tech costs alot, tell us something new.) is foolish. MS and Sony are both in no rush to release a new system anytime soon, 2012 and 2013 are at the soonest everyone is thinking about. But it could be 2014 or 2015 even. One has no idea at this point of what prices will be like as far as new optial media is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g~man Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Yeah because SD cards are drastically better than Blu Ray discs, there's such a massive amount of reasons all games developers and movie studios will want to switch away from the industry standard to them. Not to mention everyone buying Blu Ray players just now and over the next few years totally can't wait to switch over to SD card players.I'll laugh when your predictions fail hard, I don't need a history lesson, I have common sense on my side. i named about 5 pro's for sd cards over blu ray in the end, blu ray will be another flop for sony, just like betamax, umd's and minidiscs... what did the people do who supported these formats? yes, they switched over... if anything, the movie industry loves all these failing formats because people buy their movies once again on other formats the only saving grace for discs somehow being incorporated in next gen consoles is if they are install games only and the consoles ships with 500gb hardrives or something... just like how pc does it... install the game and throw the disc in the cupboard. we are gonna be in the era when gamers want access to 50 games with just the press of a few buttons still, spinning discs is old tech, im done with this convo, the next xbox wont have a discdrive - quote me on that and bump this thread in 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted October 23, 2009 Subscriber² Share Posted October 23, 2009 I really wish I had a time machine, I now can't wait till 2013 :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardcore Til I Die Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 I think disc-less consoles may be released alongside the next gen consoles, but that blu-ray versions will still be released. Maybe even one of the 3 companies will even release a discless console, but I don't think they all will. The internet is more accessible and cheaper than ever before; we pay a considerable amount less now for 10mb broadband, than we used to for dial-up. It would make sense to create a console where games and content can be downloaded instead of having to purchase a hard copy. Who knows, if the cost of SSDs have come down considerably by then, these consoles could be sold with SSD storage... much quieter, much more reliable and much faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George P Global Moderator Posted October 23, 2009 Global Moderator Share Posted October 23, 2009 I think disc-less consoles may be released alongside the next gen consoles, but that blu-ray versions will still be released. Maybe even one of the 3 companies will even release a discless console, but I don't think they all will. The internet is more accessible and cheaper than ever before; we pay a considerable amount less now for 10mb broadband, than we used to for dial-up. It would make sense to create a console where games and content can be downloaded instead of having to purchase a hard copy. Who knows, if the cost of SSDs have come down considerably by then, these consoles could be sold with SSD storage... much quieter, much more reliable and much faster. The problem with that at the moment though is that a lot of countries and regions either have slower speeds 2-4mbps, so d/l a large 8-15GB game or w/e will take quite some time. One way to fix that is to allow you to play as it downloads/installs, if you have downloaded enough to get started, maybe 20%? The other thing is, some places have very low monthly caps as well. 10GB? 20GB per month? It's silly, but it's a problem stopping things. This could very well change come 2013 or 2014 though, so we can't be sure, and I'm never one to write off forward looking ideas. Games could go back to using flash though, if in 3 years it's dirt cheap, and sizes are always growing. 8GB USB sticks are so cheap right now, and that fits the majority of 360 games right there. 16GB sticks cost less than a new 360 game goes for as well. It's not beyond the possibility of getting dirt cheap, yet fast, Flash chips on mass at around 32GB in 3 years time to fit games on. Unless devs go HD video crazy and we need even more, which could happen as well. I'm open to thinking of other formats and ways to get games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spookie Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Games could go back to using flash though, if in 3 years it's dirt cheap, and sizes are always growing. I can't see flash being as easy to knock out as DVD's/Blu Rays. Surely the factories would need a complete revamp to do something like that? Who would foot the bill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George P Global Moderator Posted October 23, 2009 Global Moderator Share Posted October 23, 2009 I can't see flash being as easy to knock out as DVD's/Blu Rays. Surely the factories would need a complete revamp to do something like that? Who would foot the bill? Which factories? Unless you mean changing the ones that print DVDs over to flash then yeah. But why? Lots of factories produce loads of flash chips already. And they give out 2/4/8GB flash sticks for cheap now. I'm just saying that it's another option down the line. Right now price is the only issue, but SSD usage will grow, that drives flash chip prices even lower overall. If games need like 8-20GB of size on average today, who's to say putting them on a 32GB flash card/stick 3-4 years from now wouldn't be an option? It's basically all down to how much each stick/card will cost in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted October 23, 2009 Subscriber² Share Posted October 23, 2009 And again why on earth would the games industry and console manufacturers want to move to individual flash carts for every game? You're still never going to get them as cheap as you would buying discs in bulk. As an everyday citizen you can buy 100 DVDs for like ?15-20 right now, think of the price manufacturers get DVDs at. You can not buy 100 flash carts for ?15-20 in the size that would be necessary for gaming. You put a card reader in the next Xbox and you lose backwards compatibility with the 360, and the ability to read DVDs whether they be movies, tv shows, or content burned to disc. Try telling me that's a good consumer move. Logic seems to be lost on you guys in favour of trying to find absolutely any conceivable way of avoiding Blu Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draken Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 rubbish and more Rubbish and tons of rubbish ++ he said "if you want a Blu-ray player go buy it as an accessory, this is a gaming machine not a media player + gaming like the PS3" :p that's all, Ballmer is dyslexic, move along .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t0mbi Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Logic seems to be lost on you guys in favour of trying to find absolutely any conceivable way of avoiding Blu Ray. HAHA good call AB :p I don't understand how people are still trying to say Blu Ray will fail. Arn't there like 20 million PS3's in the world? I love my 360 to death, but Blu Ray is the future.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo003 Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 The DVD format has been in market for 13 years now and BR has been already in the market for what 6 years already. BR isn't a fail but it just didn't came out at the right time, I already have PS3 and I don't plan on buying any BR disc anymore; they're just to expensive. They way MS is responding to this BR deal for 360, I think there's something else cooking inside MS for there next console which would be released after 2012. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted October 24, 2009 Subscriber² Share Posted October 24, 2009 The DVD format has been in market for 13 years now and BR has been already in the market for what 6 years already. BR isn't a fail but it just didn't came out at the right time, I already have PS3 and I don't plan on buying any BR disc anymore; they're just to expensive.They way MS is responding to this BR deal for 360, I think there's something else cooking inside MS for there next console which would be released after 2012. Uhhh the first blu ray discs/players were introduced in 2006, 3 years, not 6 :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George P Global Moderator Posted October 24, 2009 Global Moderator Share Posted October 24, 2009 Thinking of other ways to get games is somehow wrong now? Keeping backwords compatibility and offering new games on some other media or via digital download isn't hard to do either. Why would adding a card reader stop the from also having a cheaper, smaller, and quieter DVD drive for 360 games as well? When did card readers cost boat loads of money? I already said what I think is next in line to replace bluray, some want to see flash take over. Both are possibilities down the line, just as going to a more online digital download service is also one such possibility as well. Come 2013-2014 or whenever MS starts talking about it's new Xbox (I think it'll be later rather then sooner), things aren't going to be the same as they are now. Prices for things change always. I can't understand why you think they'd stay the same as they are now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted October 24, 2009 Subscriber² Share Posted October 24, 2009 Thinking of other ways to get games is somehow wrong now? Keeping backwords compatibility and offering new games on some other media or via digital download isn't hard to do either. Why would adding a card reader stop the from also having a cheaper, smaller, and quieter DVD drive for 360 games as well? When did card readers cost boat loads of money? I already said what I think is next in line to replace bluray, some want to see flash take over. Both are possibilities down the line, just as going to a more online digital download service is also one such possibility as well. Come 2013-2014 or whenever MS starts talking about it's new Xbox (I think it'll be later rather then sooner), things aren't going to be the same as they are now. Prices for things change always. I can't understand why you think they'd stay the same as they are now? Not the same just flash won't be cheaper than Blu Ray. Optical media is always going to be cheaper to punt out in large numbers. Why on earth would MS put a game card reader AND a DVD drive in the next Xbox? That's like the worst design decision ever, not to mention confusing for consumers who're used to putting discs in the DVD drive with the 360. Makes expenses higher rather than just using a Blu Ray drive which will play 360 DVDs and have higher capacity discs for the next gen games, and have HD movie support - Unless you want to go with G~Man and believe Blu Ray is a flop and all the movie studios are switching to SD cards in the next few years as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George P Global Moderator Posted October 24, 2009 Global Moderator Share Posted October 24, 2009 Not the same just flash won't be cheaper than Blu Ray. Optical media is always going to be cheaper to punt out in large numbers.Why on earth would MS put a game card reader AND a DVD drive in the next Xbox? That's like the worst design decision ever, not to mention confusing for consumers who're used to putting discs in the DVD drive with the 360. Makes expenses higher rather than just using a Blu Ray drive which will play 360 DVDs and have higher capacity discs for the next gen games, and have HD movie support - Unless you want to go with G~Man and believe Blu Ray is a flop and all the movie studios are switching to SD cards in the next few years as well. The 360 has a "card reader" already though. How else do the memory cards/units work? Expenses aren't higher at all now are they? W/E the case, I don't think moves will move off disc soon, infact I think movies will be moving to digital distro faster than games do. But that's movies, games like to follow a different cycle, they also don't require as much space in most cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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