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Shadrack    601

No hdood, YOU are wrong. :p

Let it settle in, and just accept it :).

If you are not a lawyer, then you don't have the expertise to speak with such authority so the topic is moot.

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hdood    145
No hdood, YOU are wrong. :p

Actually, no, I'm completely right. Thanks for playing, though.

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soldier1st    40
Actually, no, I'm completely right. Thanks for playing, though.

if you were a Lawyer then you would be right as you would know the law but nowhere do you say or mention that you are a Lawyer so give it a rest and move on as the Op got another copy and will decide what to do with the upgrade he ordered arrives so done deal.

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hdood    145
if you were a Lawyer then you would be right as you would know the law but nowhere do you say or mention that you are a Lawyer so give it a rest and move on

Utter nonsense. You do not have to be a "lawyer" to know what the law says. All the people who claim I am wrong can either back their claims up with citations from the law and/or Microsoft license or apologize to me. The level of willful ignorance shown here is astonishing.

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SyntaxError    26
Nothing in this thread has anything to do with system builder licensing, although you're still wrong about that as well. It actually does not say you can just copy a DVD/CD and give it to your customers. Where does it say that? It doesn't. If you provide physical media at all, you have to provide original Microsoft discs. If you don't, you can provide a recovery partition, but never your own media.

I know this thread isn't about system builder licensing. I was merely pointing out the facts I knew them to be, and how the OP might be able to use that info.

The company I was buying CoAs from told me that it was perfectly fine to give my customers a copy of my retail XP disc as long as I sold them a CoA sticker to go with it. They said it was in compliance with MS's EULA for OEM system builders, and I left it at that. I never read the EULA myself, mainly because I really didn't care either way.

I never had any trouble buying the CoA stickers or activating Windows with the serials on those stickers. My cost was $80 per CoA, so I sure as hell wasn't going to rock the boat. I was making decent money on those stickers alone. And yes, they are genuine stickers. I was suspicious when I bought the first few, so I compared them all to my personal stickers which came with genuine MS media. There were identical. Which explains why every serial on them activated just fine.

Microsoft obviously never had a problem with these stickers being sold, otherwise they would have taken legal action to stop it.

At the end of the day, copyright laws and MS EULAs aside, when I buy something, it becomes mine. As such I will do with it whatever I want and no one is going to make me believe otherwise.

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hdood    145
I know this thread isn't about system builder licensing. I was merely pointing out the facts I knew them to be, and how the OP might be able to use that info.way.

And now others know not to take the advice, as what you were doing is illegal. End of that.

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SyntaxError    26

How is it illegal when a license to use Windows was legally purchased?

It's no different than an MSDN/Technet subscription. In that case, you buy a license and download the software.

That means it's a copy, no different than what I provided.

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hdood    145
How is it illegal when a license to use Windows was legally purchased?

It's no different than an MSDN/Technet subscription. In that case, you buy a license and download the software.

That means it's a copy, no different than what I provided.

It's illegal because you need explicit permission from Microsoft to distribute their software, and you do not have it. In fact, the system builder license explicitly forbids it.

You are confusing the license to use it with the copyright of the product itself. They are separate things. By default you have no rights according to the law. In order to be allowed to distribute it, you need permission from the rights holder. Such permission can be given through a license or other contract, but the system builder license does not do this.

When you sign up for TechNet you are actually buying both a license to use it and a right to download it from the TechNet website within the contract period. TechNet can legally distribute it this way, because they have explicit permission to do so (in fact, it's operated by Microsoft themselves.) Software you download from there can't be redistributed though, because you have no permission to do so.

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PurePhoenix    0

Hdood & others;

You can argue until you're blue in the face honestly. Dell wouldn't get away with a partition based recovery method if you were right.

Yes they have the CoA sticker whereas the opening poster may not have, however that doesn't determine right to licensing.

Not all sales of windows give you a CoA sticker.

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hdood    145
You can argue until you're blue in the face honestly. Dell wouldn't get away with a partition based recovery method if you were right.

Pay attention.

Nothing in this thread has anything to do with system builder licensing, although you're still wrong about that as well. It actually does not say you can just copy a DVD/CD and give it to your customers. Where does it say that? It doesn't. If you provide physical media at all, you have to provide original Microsoft discs. If you don't, you can provide a recovery partition, but never your own media.

Although Dell isn't a system builder. Dell has a direct OEM agreement with Microsoft that gives them explicit permission to distribute Windows on both recovery partitions and removable recovery media.

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Raa    1,563

Don't forget Dell ALSO ship Windows recovery/retail discs with almost every computer sold.

HP/others offer this as an option.

Also remember that Technet provides you with a license to test the software, not use it in a production environment.

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PurePhoenix    0
HP/others offer this as an option.

Exactly. An option. It's not required by law.

Although Dell isn't a system builder. Dell has a direct OEM agreement with Microsoft that gives them explicit permission to distribute Windows on both recovery partitions and removable recovery media.

Proof = where? How would you even know what Dell's OEM licensing agreement is, anyway?

You're an outright lier Hdood, **** off.

FYI Putting computers together & selling them is what Dell does. That constitutes as a system building company.

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hdood    145
Exactly. An option. It's not required by law.

Uh, who has said it's "required by law?" No one (except you.)

You're an outright lier Hdood, **** off.

FYI Putting computers together & selling them is what Dell does. That constitutes as a system building company.

No. System builder licensing is a specific type of licensing offered by Microsoft for smaller operations. Dell, like all the large-volume OEMs, have individual agreements with Microsoft and aren't system builders.

Every response you've made to me in this thread has been either nonsensical or wrong. If you don't know the first thing about Windows licensing, then you should refrain from posting about it.

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PurePhoenix    0

Proof or gtfo, Hdood.

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hdood    145

Proof of what?

It's also cute that you demand that people "prove" information that is widely available on the web and covered in plain language by FAQs, yet yourself run away from threads when asked to prove your claims (claims that go against what's commonly known.)

Finally, please stop with the name-calling, cursing, and playing moderator (you don't get to tell anyone to "get out.") If something I say is over the line, a moderator will deal with it.

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PurePhoenix    0

No, i won't stop. If you don't like it, then quit lying and quit making crap up. I've proven every one of my claims with evidence & links so far (when asked to).

You haven't done it even one.

Get out or prove your knowledge on Dell licensing is accurate.

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hdood    145
No, i won't stop. If you don't like it, then quit lying and quit making crap up. I've proven every one of my claims with evidence & links so far (when asked to).

Really? Why did you run away from this thread, then? What have I lied about in this thread? What have I made up?

Get out or prove your knowledge on Dell licensing is accurate.

It's simple deduction.

Fact #1: The system builder license doesn't allow removable recovery media.

Dell delivers this, and so can't be a system builder, because they would then be breaking the law.

Fact #2: Microsoft offers direct OEM agreements with large-volume OEMs that are customized to the needs of the individual OEM (including allowing removable media) and discounted.

Dell is a large OEM and has custom requirements (like we saw above), and it thus stands to reason that Dell has such an agreement. If they didn't, they would be breaking the law and wasting huge sums of money on overly expensive small-volume licenses.

It's very simple. Even though this is the internet, you are still allowed to use your head. What you should have done instead of posting a knee-jerk reaction because you don't like me, is look it up on the web.

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PurePhoenix    0

What? I didn't run away from any thread. If you dno't understand what's posted there, that's your fault.

And FFS Hdood, no, this isn't about deduction. Dell have broken the law countless times. Especially in regards to their warranty repairs and windows XP Home OEM licenses.

Your "Facts" are moot and invalid.

Fact #2: Microsoft offers direct OEM agreements with large-volume OEMs that are customized to the needs of the individual OEM (including allowing removable media) and discounted.

Let's see it. Proof = links on MS or Dells' site or a reputable source, btw. Not false logic.

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Guest_User_Delete_Me    20

I used an upgrade disc to do a full retail install without doing anything except formatting C: drive and insertign disc to boot from.

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hdood    145
What? I didn't run away from any thread. If you dno't understand what's posted there, that's your fault.

You claimed that all the big encryption algorithms use fixed keys. This is completely wrong, as pointed out by both me and many others in that thread. You then started confusing keys and algorithms, showing a complete lack of understanding of how encryption works. This is a simple fact. You being completely wrong is not other people "not understanding." Why don't you revive the thread and answer the questions?

And FFS Hdood, no, this isn't about deduction. Dell have broken the law countless times. Especially in regards to their warranty repairs and windows XP Home OEM licenses.

Your "Facts" are moot and invalid.

So now you are claiming that I am wrong because "Dell has broken the law countless times." Get over yourself. You are completely wrong. As wrong as it is humanly possible to get. As wrong as it's likely possible for any species in the entire universe to get. The system builder license does not allow removable recovery media, and all big OEMS have direct OEM agreements with Microsoft. This is how it works. Your complete and utter lack of even the most basic understanding of the computer industry is not my fault. The fact that someone would actually seriously claim that a company like Dell (or HP or Acer or anyone else) does not have their own OEM agreement with Microsoft is absurd beyond belief.

To quote straight from the plain-language Microsoft FAQ that even you can probably read:

Q. Can a system builder stamp and sell CDs with Microsoft software?

A. No. The reproduction of CDs with Microsoft software by system builders infringes Microsoft's copyright. Unauthorized reproduction is illegal, and can result in civil and criminal liability.

Q. Can a system builder create their own recovery disks and sell these with the computer systems that they build?

A. No. Unauthorized reproduction of Microsoft software infringes Microsoft's copyright, is illegal, and can result in civil and criminal liability.

System builders are bound by the Microsoft OEM System Builder License, affixed to the side of the System Builder packs, which is different than the direct agreements utilized by direct OEMs. The licensing terms for system builders and large OEMs are different because they are designed to address the specific needs of each community. The right to create recovery media is limited to the OEMs with direct agreements; however, these OEMs are also bound by other contractual obligations. The OEM System Builder License is designed to make it easy for system builders to acquire and distribute genuine Microsoft software, and accordingly, its terms are different.

Now it is time for you to stop posting about topics you know absolutely nothing about, and stop attacking people who are actually posting the correct thing.

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PurePhoenix    0

"Unauthorised Reproduction".

You are authorised if you own the license for it, e.g have purchased it.

One backup copy per purchase in the U.S.A

That's the law. Microsoft can't stop it.

You don't even have to keep the original disc, just your proof of purchase and documentation is enough.

For the record, Dell doesn't have a licensing agreement with Microsoft. They purchase licenses in bulk & resell them just like every other company.

The end user is legally entitled to have windows installed on hard drive as well as stored in a recovery partition or disc - not both. (ONE backup copy per purchase!)

Regardless of what key is actually installed. Regardless of HOW it was installed.

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hdood    145

Could you please stay on topic? We were discussing the OEM license, not the end-user license (although to answer your derail, no one besides you has claimed you aren't allowed to make a backup copy.)

They purchase licenses in bulk & resell them just like every other company.

Oh, okay, I guess that means Microsoft were wrong when they described how they have direct OEM agreements with the large manufacturers. Maybe you should call Microsoft up and inform them that they are in fact wrong.

For the record, Dell doesn't have a licensing agreement with Microsoft. They purchase licenses in bulk & resell them just like every other company.

No. They create their own recovery discs, something that requires a direct OEM agreement with Microsoft. Simply "purcashing licenses in bulk" would not allow you to do this. Not just that, but the licenses OEMs like Dell used aren't even available to anyone other than those with direct OEM agreements. The ability to preinstall and activate Windows offline (by being tied to the BIOS), for instance, is something only direct OEMs can offer.

It's absurd that someone who claims to have been in the industry for as long as you do doesn't understand this.

The end user is legally entitled to have windows installed on hard drive as well as stored in a recovery partition or disc - not both. (ONE backup copy per purchase!)

Regardless of what key is actually installed. Regardless of HOW it was installed.

Could you please stay on topic? We were discussing OEM licensing, not end users. Unless you have a direct OEM agreement with Microsoft (as opposed to being a system builder), you cannot give your customers a recovery disc. Doing so is against the law. The only removable media you can give them is the original Microsoft disc that comes in the pack (contrary to your claim, you are in fact required to do so regardless of whether you offer a recovery partition or not, meaning the user could have both.) This is all explained in the Microsoft quotes I gave you in my last post, that you clearly failed to comprehend even though they were written in plain English.

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PurePhoenix    0

hdood you can't seriously be that stupid.

There is almost no difference between the OEM license and the full retail. OEM licenses can be cheaper because they don't always come with media / discs. That's already been said in this thread. OEM licenses can be just CoA stickers, you don't have to own the media on top of having the sticker - because having the sticker proves you're authorised to have the software, in the same way a purchasing receipt does.

Dell doesn't need a custom licensing agreement with microsoft and FYI what key they install on the system is different for each PC. Working with the occasional dell for the last 10 years odd, i did double check. Otherwise i wouldn't have had to kick up a stink when the CoA sticker on a dell wasn't legit; i just would have been required to re-enter the OEM key :p

Learn to read and comprehend a thread properly ffs. This is the 3rd time or more i've had to say this to you and you still let your arrogance get the better of you and you still refuse to listen.

something that requires a direct OEM agreement with Microsoft.

And you're still lying. I've said it already, until you can prove your claims with links, you're lying. And i'm ignoring you from now on.

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hdood    145
hdood you can't seriously be that stupid.

There is almost no difference between the OEM license and the full retail. OEM licenses can be cheaper because they don't always come with media / discs. That's already been said in this thread. OEM licenses can be just CoA stickers, you don't have to own the media on top of having the sticker - because having the sticker proves you're authorised to have the software, in the same way a purchasing receipt does.

Again your ignorance shows. In your mind the end-user license is the only thing that exists, even though I've repeatedly told you that we were not discussing end-user licenses, we were discussing the OEM licenses. These are licenses the OEMs are bound by, not the end user. The system builder license, for instance, is one such OEM license. The individual direct OEM agreements, the same. I don't expect you to understand that these are different things.

I will remind you what the sidenote was that was originally being discussed before you entered the thread and filled it with nonsense. It was a guy saying that he (as an OEM bound by the system builder license) gave his customers a home-made disc. I informed him that the license does in fact not allow this (this I have proven conclusively, see post #45), but instead requires you to distribute the original Microsoft disc from the pack. It was then also explained that big OEMs like Dell or HP are allowed to do it, but only because they have their own direct OEM agreements with Microsoft instead of falling under the system builder license. This was a simple case of clearing up some misunderstandings, until you came along and started posting silly stuff.

Again, I urge you to please stay on topic.

Dell doesn't need a custom licensing agreement with microsoft

Really? I expect your next post to quote the part of the license Dell falls under that allows them to create removable recovery media. I'm sure you can do this, since you "know" that Dell doesn't need their own OEM agreement. It can't be from the system builder license, because that doesn't allow it (it only allows you to distribute the original unmodified Microsoft disc.) So where is it?

and FYI what key they install on the system is different for each PC.

You are wrong. The key on the CoA is individual, but that is not used for the OS that is preinstalled (and on recovery). The preinstalled OS uses a generic (OEM-specific) key along with an OEM certificate that is tied to an OEM identifier in the BIOS. Together these allow the direct OEMs to do offline activation. Simply put this works by having an identifier that says "Dell" or "Hewlett-Packard" or whatever in the BIOS. This is encrypted with a private OEM key, and the corresponding public key is in the BIOS.

These are also stored in a certificate file on the OEM media/installation, and this file has to be signed by Microsoft to be valid (in other words, it's impossible to use the system without having an agreement with Microsoft.) If Windows verifies that the signature is valid, it compares the identifier in the certificate with the one in the BIOS. If they match, it reads the licensing information from the certificate and activates Windows offline. This is the OEM system Microsoft has used for direct OEMs since Vista, and also in a simpler form in XP.

I own two Dell machines, and just confirmed that this is what they do, just as expected. Incidentally, this is also a very popular way to pirate Windows by modifying your BIOS, since it bypasses online activation.

And you're still lying. I've said it already, until you can prove your claims with links, you're lying. And i'm ignoring you from now on.

Please go back to my link where I provided quotes from Microsoft that clearly state what is allowed and what is not, and that shows that there are both system builders and direct OEMs. Are you disputing the Microsoft quotes in post #45?

Edited by hdood

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soldier1st    40
hdood you can't seriously be that stupid.

There is almost no difference between the OEM license and the full retail. OEM licenses can be cheaper because they don't always come with media / discs. That's already been said in this thread. OEM licenses can be just CoA stickers, you don't have to own the media on top of having the sticker - because having the sticker proves you're authorised to have the software, in the same way a purchasing receipt does.

Dell doesn't need a custom licensing agreement with microsoft and FYI what key they install on the system is different for each PC. Working with the occasional dell for the last 10 years odd, i did double check. Otherwise i wouldn't have had to kick up a stink when the CoA sticker on a dell wasn't legit; i just would have been required to re-enter the OEM key :p

Learn to read and comprehend a thread properly ffs. This is the 3rd time or more i've had to say this to you and you still let your arrogance get the better of you and you still refuse to listen.

And you're still lying. I've said it already, until you can prove your claims with links, you're lying. And i'm ignoring you from now on.

i agree, posters like him need to open there eares and close that mouth so the eares are fully open to listen and must think of what they heard instead of hearing what they want to hear and if they can't do that then they should not post.

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