carmatic Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 guys i've been thinking, for driving games, why are we stuck with either the thumbsticks on a gamepad, or a replica of a steering wheel... why arent there more controllers like you pull the trigger to accelerate, push it forwards for brake... and you twist the 'steering wheel' with your right hand i have played with remote controlled cars using pistol grip controllers, and i can say for sure that it controls much more precisely than a thumbstick on a gamepad... especially with steering, that wheel can turn up to 180 degrees, compared to the acute angles at which thumbsticks work... which is a good thing when you are dealing with an actual physical object which can be damaged or destroyed if you pull a wrong turn... also some of these cars require lighning fast reflexes, and all it takes is a twitch of a finger and a twist of a wrist and you have instant control... i really think a controller like that combines the best of gamepads and steering wheels.... its as quick as a thumbstick , but as precise as a steering wheel... you'll be controlling the steering with all the fingers of one hand , rather than just your thumb... and instead of the long waving strokes of a steering wheel, you have short and direct motions which take as little time and effort as working a gamepad... and it is already a handheld wireless controller, the difference is that rather than going out and controlling a RC car with it, you'd be sitting on your couch staring at your television... just like nobody lugs around a steering wheel replica for controlling their RC car with, a pistol-grip style controller would also have the pick-up-and-play factor of a regular gamepad, you merely hold it differently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerm Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 why arent there more controllers like Because they're **** and nobody likes them. At least nobody I know. Steering wheel ftw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmatic Posted January 30, 2010 Author Share Posted January 30, 2010 Because they're **** and nobody likes them. At least nobody I know. Steering wheel ftw. being that this is the gamers forum, i was expecting this kind of reply how exactly do you not agree with a pistol grip controller for driving games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 It's simple. a pistol grip can only be used for car games. in wich case an actualy wheel is a much better solution. the pad work great for racing games, but it also works great for pretty much everything else. yes, a pistol grip would be s amll controller that works better, but again, only for one type of game, where there already is a much better alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sethos Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 That controller is made purely to be lugged around so you can control your RC car outside, you don't need it for playing games on your couch because it doesn't match the accuracy or comfortability of a controller or steering wheel. Plus it's probably quite uncomfortable to hold for hours when sitting down because it's an unnatural lob-sided holding position. It's a silly idea and I commend manufactures for not letting it catch on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerm Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 being that this is the gamers forum, i was expecting this kind of reply how exactly do you not agree with a pistol grip controller for driving games? What kind of a reply is that? One containing an opinion? I just find them inaccurate and fiddly, a little bit counter productive. When you apply pressure to accelerate it moves the pad which affects your steering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtrabit racing Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Logitech ChillStream, FTW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmatic Posted January 30, 2010 Author Share Posted January 30, 2010 That controller is made purely to be lugged around so you can control your RC car outside, you don't need it for playing games on your couch because it doesn't match the accuracy or comfortability of a controller or steering wheel. but it would certainly beat the responsiveness of a steering wheel, and beat the accuracy of a gamepad anything which is easy enough to carry around outside your home, is more than comfortable enough to use on a couch... look at all the portable electronics we use both inside and outside our homes, people text at dinner tables, the nintendo dsi 'brain training' ads show a woman using her dsi on her sofa, etc etc etc... Plus it's probably quite uncomfortable to hold for hours when sitting down because it's an unnatural lob-sided holding position. ts not what it looks like, you dont point at the screen or at an RC car with it... you hold it with the 'muzzle' facing to your right, your arms would be in the same position as holding a gamepad i've held one before and it is as comfortable as any game pad... the only problem would be supporting the weight with your left hand (as opposed to both hands with a gamepad), since that is the hand which holds the grip, but game controllers arent exactly heavy, neither are RC car controllers... i know, because i've used them myself plus, a steering wheel forces your whole body into a conformant position, too high or too low and you'd get back pain real fast.... whereas a handheld controller is alot better for your ergonomics It's a silly idea and I commend manufactures for not letting it catch on. thats what people used to say about the wiimotes ... except wiimotes have been made, and now they are the most commonly used console controller... plus, they are an untested design as opposed to RC car controllers, which have been refined since the 1970's ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconboy Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 There aren't controllers like that because people want their driving games to be more realistic and this would be a step back. Everyone uses a controller as a base and people who want more percision and realism move upto a steering wheel, the trigger design is indicitive of a remote control car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sethos Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 but it would certainly beat the responsiveness of a steering wheel, and beat the accuracy of a gamepad anything which is easy enough to carry around outside your home, is more than comfortable enough to use on a couch... look at all the portable electronics we use both inside and outside our homes, people text at dinner tables, the nintendo dsi 'brain training' ads show a woman using her dsi on her sofa, etc etc etc... That's some daft logic right there. No, it wouldn't beat any of the mentioned, why would it, because you say so? Everything you mention has a symmetrical holding position thus it's COMFORTABLE - Asymmetrical is UNCOMFORTABLE when being held in a static position for hours. ts not what it looks like, you dont point at the screen or at an RC car with it... you hold it with the 'muzzle' facing to your right, your arms would be in the same position as holding a gamepad i've held one before and it is as comfortable as any game pad... the only problem would be supporting the weight with your left hand (as opposed to both hands with a gamepad), since that is the hand which holds the grip, but game controllers arent exactly heavy, neither are RC car controllers... i know, because i've used them myself plus, a steering wheel forces your whole body into a conformant position, too high or too low and you'd get back pain real fast.... whereas a handheld controller is alot better for your ergonomics You can position the steering wheel however you like to support your body posture, that crappy controller is always going to be held in an asymmetrical hand position which is uncomfortable for long use - I have plenty of those RC controllers and after 30 minutes of use, your hands does get a bit tired, especially if you got a heavy one. thats what people used to say about the wiimotes ... except wiimotes have been made, and now they are the most commonly used console controller... plus, they are an untested design as opposed to RC car controllers, which have been refined since the 1970's ... Commonly used, yes, because it has become a niche gaming item like the iPhone has become the de facto phone. That doesn't mean the controller sees heavy usage measured in hours per person. I know lots of people with a Wii but none of them spends 3-4 hours in one sitting - Not to mention you don't sit perfectly still with the WiiMote, you tend to be bouncing around the room, something you won't be doing with that crappy controlled you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmatic Posted January 30, 2010 Author Share Posted January 30, 2010 What kind of a reply is that? One containing an opinion? I just find them inaccurate and fiddly, a little bit counter productive. When you apply pressure to accelerate it moves the pad which affects your steering. a reply which used a swear word and had no argumentative detail , unlike what you posted now i never had any problems like you described with any of the pistol grip controllers i've owned, like pulling the trigger causes steering action ... maybe you just happened to be using a particularly ****ty controller? a properly designed and made controller would ideally have the steering and accelerator independent of each other, and with high quality pistol grip controllers that is always the case There aren't controllers like that because people want their driving games to be more realistic and this would be a step back. Everyone uses a controller as a base and people who want more percision and realism move upto a steering wheel, the trigger design is indicitive of a remote control car if someone was watching you, sitting on your couch holding this controller, yes it would look like you are playing with an RC car... maybe you wouldnt like that, but im sure that there are people who care more about how they perform in-game than how they look when they are playing steering wheels give you realism, but a pistol grip controller gives you a both accuracy and quick responses...dont underestimate the steering on the pistol grip, the wheel has a very wide rotation, i've used it before and i can say it is just the same as working a classic joystick, only in 1 dimension and alot lighter... not quite the same as a steering wheel, but it has the same feeling of precision as one, and the same sensation of instant responsiveness of a gamepad.. most likely if it was made for real, it would be a step between normal gamepads and steering wheels, both in cost and in functionality... as it is now, there is a pretty huge gap between the pads and the wheels... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sethos Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Steering wheels are the best controllers for car games, because they are accurate, comfortable and realistic - Everything that pistol-crap-grip isn't. And I haven't been talking about "Outside appearances", you just pulled that one out your B-hind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmatic Posted January 30, 2010 Author Share Posted January 30, 2010 That's some daft logic right there. No, it wouldn't beat any of the mentioned, why would it, because you say so? im certainly not saying that a pistol grip controller will be worse than a steering wheel and a gamepad, im just saying that it might be better... nobody knows for sure, since nobody has tried it out yet... or at least , if someone knows, they arent disclosing it... but im very confident that yes, it will work better Everything you mention has a symmetrical holding position thus it's COMFORTABLE - Asymmetrical is UNCOMFORTABLE when being held in a static position for hours. oh really? i mentioned the nintendo ds... the ads for it clearly show it being held with one hand, and its stylus being held with the other hand... is that not assymetric? besides, how do you account for things like keyboard and mouse , or joysticks clearly meant to be held with your right hand? You can position the steering wheel however you like to support your body posture, that crappy controller is always going to be held in an asymmetrical hand position which is uncomfortable for long use - I have plenty of those RC controllers and after 30 minutes of use, your hands does get a bit tired, especially if you got a heavy one. if you have used RC controllers like that as well, fair enough, yes with all the added circuitries and the extra batteries you need to power the radios and antenna, not to mention the rugged casing, it all adds up to the weight of a proper RC controller... im just saying that a game controller could be made in the same operating principle as a pistol grip controller, i.e. trigger for accelerator and a twist wheel for steering , and it would provide the benefits of both steering wheels and gamepads... if a game controller would be made based on an RC car controller, it would be made to the same ergonomic standards as any other game controller, i would not expect it to be a direct copy of an RC controller... it will weigh as little as a game controller, it will be as comfortable as a game controller, the angles and positions will be adjusted to be ergonomically correct, etc etc and the discomfort will be eliminated Logitech ChillStream, FTW funny you mentioined that... i had that controller, and i was trying to play games like NFS Most Wanted and Colin Mcrae DIRT with it... its a huge step above playing with a keyboard, thats for sure, but everytime i i oversteered, understeered or otherwise missed the racing line, i kept thinking , it would be nice if i could use an RC controller with its wide steering rotation for this, rather than put up with these fiddly thumbsticks i had tried to use a steering wheel before, but it really only works with sim driving games... arcadey games are optimized for the end-to-end movement of the thumbstick, so the steering sensitivity goes down as the car goes faster... you'd end up throwing the steering wheel lock-to-lock vigorously and constantly... if the wheel was small enough to be held between your fingers, you would be able to turn it fast enough to match the speed of a thumbstick, but the added precision is there for those narrow shortcuts, aimed jumps and 'tightrope' sections so basically, gamepads are general purpose while steering wheels are sim-specific... a pistol grip controller would cover all driving genres... it will not be as realistic as a steering wheel, but it will be as accurate as your right hand is, and it will also be as responsive as the thumbsticks on a gamepad... it will be suitable for everything from the Mario Kart games to the Gran Turismo games, and it lets you perform better in any driving game compared to a gamepad... so it is more versatile than a steering wheel, and it should also be cheaper too since it is physically smaller.... but it would probably cost more than a gamepad, and you can only play driving games with it, so it is truly a crossover between a gamepad and a steering wheel... its a huge gap which hasnt been filled yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR_Candyman Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I agree with carmatic. I've been racing rc cars for a long time and I can definitely tell you the pistol grip controllers are very precise, and because it's such a small movement in comparison to a steering wheel, it's actually a lot easier to use for a long period of time. About the weight in one hand thing, I can't say I've ever felt that was a problem. I've raced entire weekends with very little break and can't say it was ever annoying me having to hold my radio. I can see where your argument stems from definitely, but the fact is these radios are LIGHT. I definitely have no idea why people are saying they're not precise. If I can control an rc car with tiny 4 inch diameter tires at 50+ mph and keep it going where I want it to, without even being in the car, then I would say the radio does a damn fine job. I'm not positive however that it would be a great racing game controller for one reason. Gear changes. You would have no cluth, and all you could really do to implement gear changes is have buttons, which would cause hand strain to use. Aside from that I would be all over an rc pistol grip controller for video games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmatic Posted January 31, 2010 Author Share Posted January 31, 2010 I'm not positive however that it would be a great racing game controller for one reason. Gear changes. You would have no cluth, and all you could really do to implement gear changes is have buttons, which would cause hand strain to use. Aside from that I would be all over an rc pistol grip controller for video games. for that, i have thought that the flexibility inherent in designing a entirely new controller (as opposed to recreating an existing controller) would let the problem be solved... some call it the 'blue sky' condition the middle, pinky and little fingers of your left hand are located at the grip, and buttons could be located where the tips of the fingers would go, similar to a high end flight sim stick ... not to mention the thumb has a large degree of free movement , think the analogue stick of the Wii's Nunchuck , or a joystick's hat switch or you could have 'paddle shift' buttons on the pistol grip's wheel, abit like how you have buttons on a mouse all these buttons could be recessed and angled in such a way that you only press them if you want to, nothing less (accidental presses) and nothing more (rsi inducing) ideally such a controller would look like a mash-up between a late 90's Thrustmaster joystick , and an RC car transmitter... but for now , the best thing is the Kyosho CP002, here's a better pic trying to find more info on it, but it looks like there is something which you could actuate with your thumb, so thats probably gear shifting right there... pretty sure that they could have chosen a better place for those 4 buttons , as it is now all you can do with them is work the "A=resume B=quit X=options Y=whatever" menu system , they will be out of reach during gameplay... it would be much better if they are placed next to your thumb, or as additional triggers on the handle , for things like the horn, nitro, weapons, etc ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azusa Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 i think the reason there hasn't been one already is because they suck even for RC cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmatic Posted January 31, 2010 Author Share Posted January 31, 2010 i think the reason there hasn't been one already is because they suck even for RC cars. im sorry, but do you even have any clue what your talking about? they are the ONLY way to control proper hobby-grade RC cars... if you have been thinking about this: then you have no idea about RC cars, and how well a pistol grip controller works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 im sorry, but do you even have any clue what your talking about? they are the ONLY way to control proper hobby-grade RC cars... if you have been thinking about this: then you have no idea about RC cars, and how well a pistol grip controller works Actually those work very well for RC cars. The reason they have special controllers for cars is not because it's so much better. it is mildly better, but not greatly so, but also because they want to be different and they want the controller to look like it's made for cars. btw, RC sticks are a lot different from gamepads. AND you can connect both types of controllers to yoru pc and use them as a game controller. And wheels are better, unless the game is VERY arcadey, in wich case, the gamepad is actually a better controller for the game than the pistol grip, since that's what the game is made for. PIstol grip controller would in fact be good only for games designed to steer like a sim game, and there the wheel is so far above the pistol grip they're not even on the same planet. for arcade games, the pad is better. And you keep ignoring the main point, the one I made in my first post in this thread. Arcade racer players don't buy extra controllers for their racig games, they use the controller that works great with the arcade racer, and all other games. and Sim players they're not going to buy it because a wheel is much much better. end result. THERE IS NO MARKET! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR_Candyman Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Actually Hawkman, the reason pistol grip radios became so popular is because about 30 years ago a company called Orbit designed the first pistol grip radio. Orbit was very tight with Team Associated (who dominated the rc racing scene). TA sold these pistol grip orbit radios with their kits. They didn't have a great shape, but the concept was there. a few years later Futaba came out with their first version, which had a much better casing and some more advanced features than the Orbit model. This radio sold a ton because everybody who had one won races. Then the rc car radio scene shifted to the pistol grip style, not to "look different" but because it is so much easier to control your car and so much easier on your hands (just try using an airplane style radio for a whole weekend, you'll get some pretty stiff joints). I do agree there's not enough of a market for a pistol grip in the video game scene. A company would have to be ballistic to try to bring one out. Sorry carmatic, but the idea of the buttons on grip is not a good one. With your hand curved around it and hitting buttons repeatedly, it will cause major cramping in your hand and wrist. Eventually you will build your muscles to the point it will be fine, but that would take weeks of pain, which no gamer wants to go through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedstr3789 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I don't know if any one has said this but how many people drive real cars with a control stick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR_Candyman Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I don't know if any one has said this but how many people drive real cars with a control stick? honestly, I would say that's a pretty moot point as video game steering wheels feel nothing like a real car's, and they're smaller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmatic Posted February 1, 2010 Author Share Posted February 1, 2010 And wheels are better, unless the game is VERY arcadey, in wich case, the gamepad is actually a better controller for the game than the pistol grip, since that's what the game is made for. PIstol grip controller would in fact be good only for games designed to steer like a sim game, and there the wheel is so far above the pistol grip they're not even on the same planet. for arcade games, the pad is better. And you keep ignoring the main point, the one I made in my first post in this thread. Arcade racer players don't buy extra controllers for their racig games, they use the controller that works great with the arcade racer, and all other games. and Sim players they're not going to buy it because a wheel is much much better. end result. THERE IS NO MARKET! the point is for a controller which lets you perform better than a gamepad in all driving games, without the price of a steering wheel... or its bulkiness and weight, or requiring you to sit down on a proper chaiir, or how you wont be able to turn the wheel fast enough for arcadey games...considering that this covers an entire genre, as opposed to steering wheels which only serve a sub-genre and with a higher price too, i'd say that there could possibly be a market for this sort of stuff... like people who cant afford to pay for a steering wheel but still want to do better in their racing games, or people who play racing games but not simulators 100% of the time in fact im leaning pretty hard towards buying a CP002 right now, since i dont have a RC transmitter with me... anyone up for a race against me? any game , any driving genre... but i might have to modify the controller to reposition the buttons so it could be awhile before i can actually race.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 the point is for a controller which lets you perform better than a gamepad in all driving games, without the price of a steering wheel... or its bulkiness and weight, or requiring you to sit down on a proper chaiir, or how you wont be able to turn the wheel fast enough for arcadey games...considering that this covers an entire genre, as opposed to steering wheels which only serve a sub-genre and with a higher price too, i'd say that there could possibly be a market for this sort of stuff... like people who cant afford to pay for a steering wheel but still want to do better in their racing games, or people who play racing games but not simulators 100% of the time in fact im leaning pretty hard towards buying a CP002 right now, since i dont have a RC transmitter with me... anyone up for a race against me? any game , any driving genre... but i might have to modify the controller to reposition the buttons so it could be awhile before i can actually race.... It won't really be cheaper than an actual steerign wheel, and for arcade games, it won't be any better than the pad since arcade games are made for the pad. arcade racer gamers buy them because they want the easy, they don't want an extra controller just for their race games, it's not necessary. and it just doesn't offer the control abilitiy that a pad offers that arcade games require. , buttons for silly things like boost and whatnot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmatic Posted February 1, 2010 Author Share Posted February 1, 2010 It won't really be cheaper than an actual steerign wheel, and for arcade games, it won't be any better than the pad since arcade games are made for the pad. the cost of materials alone will differentiate the price of a small controller as opposed to a big one... for example the Kyosho CP002 i could find for $57 , something like a logitech steering wheel costs upwards twice of that... if the CP002 was produced at the scale of existing gamepads, economies of scale means that the price would surely go down more... as it is now , its something of a novelty item arcade racer gamers buy them because they want the easy, they don't want an extra controller just for their race games, it's not necessary. and it just doesn't offer the control abilitiy that a pad offers that arcade games require. , buttons for silly things like boost and whatnot. they dont need an extra controller for arcade games, but if they were really competitive, they would want a controller that's better than a pad i agree that arcade racers are optimized for thumbsticks, they are back breaking to play with a steering wheel... but the small wheel of a pistol grip can be flicked side to side as fast as a thumbstick, and yet it has the precision of a full-size joystick... which would probably make it abit less precise than a steering wheel, but wouldnt you say that holding something with all 5 fingers makes it more precise than pushing it around with your thumb? remember that you are using the same muscles for turning that wheel, as for using a mouse or a trackball... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smigit Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 If a pistol grip really was a great solution it would be inside real cars already... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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