Final Fantasy Director's Take On Western Vs. Japanese RPGs


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How does Final Fantasy XIII director Motomu Toriyama explain the difference between Japanese-designed role-playing games and their western counterparts? By pointing out the divide between classic RPGs like Tomb Raider, Hitman and Final Fantasy.

I know what you're thinking. "Tomb Raider and Hitman aren't western RPGs!" But Toriyama's argument was that western gamers—or, more specifically, players of Eidos games that let players control a singular protagonist—play from their own perspective. Japanese gamers play from the perspective of their character, comfortable playing as a third-party participant with a bird's eye view of the action.

Sure, it makes a strange slide and Toriyama's generalizing theory may have some huge holes in it, but there you go. Square Enix's perspective on the matter.

http://kotaku.com/5493933/final-fantasy-directors-take-on-western-vs-japanese-rpgs

I really hope this guy is IRL trolling because this absolutely makes no sense to me

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I wish Toriyama would let FFXIII speak for itself and stop comparing it to games that have nothing to do with it. First it was the comparisons to Call Of Duty, now it's Hitman and Tomb Raider. None of those games are RPGs let alone JRPGs.

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Western RPGs -> JRPG's.

This used to be the other way around, but technology helped WRPG's become more plausible and fun to play. JRPG's in general seem to be stuck in the old fashioned turn-based style of play with many many cut scenes you can't do anything in but watch, which just doesn't make sense.

If it's all about immersion why are you constantly taken out of it? In games like Fallout 3 you never lose control of your character.

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No, but Square Enix publish both.

Only for less than a year. At first I thought it was because of licensing issues, but this is from a powerpoint from GDC so it doesn't make sense. Could it be a translation error? Or that he's out of touch?

I'm really curious how the conversation would have been if he used the examples of Mass Effect, Dragon Age, World of Warcraft, Fallout, Fable, Diablo, or Dragon Age

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the new final fantasy is more of an adventure game then an RPG anyways... just like mass effect 2 is more of a third person shooter then an RPG...

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If it's all about immersion why are you constantly taken out of it? In games like Fallout 3 you never lose control of your character.

Japanese gamers play from the perspective of their character, comfortable playing as a third-party participant with a bird's eye view of the action.

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the new final fantasy is more of an adventure game then an RPG anyways... just like mass effect 2 is more of a third person shooter then an RPG...

Sorry but I highly disagree. The new final fantasy is very much so a Japanese RPG. It has very little to no adventuring at all.

And by Japanese RPG, I mean:

Unnatural transition from overworld to battle screen to cut scene

A combat system

Heavy reliance to a menu system

Heavy reliance to a party system

Author-controlled narrative

Heavy reliance to number-crunching

Funky haircuts and outfits (I put this in just for LOLz) although I gotta hand it to them, they didn't go overboard with the zippers and belt buckles this time around

Mass Effect 2 is a Western Role Playing Game that uses shooter mechanics.

Japanese gamers play from the perspective of their character, comfortable playing as a third-party participant with a bird's eye view of the action.

Isn't this the opposite of immersion?

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Western RPGs -> JRPG's.

This used to be the other way around, but technology helped WRPG's become more plausible and fun to play. JRPG's in general seem to be stuck in the old fashioned turn-based style of play with many many cut scenes you can't do anything in but watch, which just doesn't make sense.

If it's all about immersion why are you constantly taken out of it? In games like Fallout 3 you never lose control of your character.

any time!, JRPG have target and that is, but they are not fresh, their universes are very similar to an LSD trip, all characters are stupid cheese stereotypes who represent all the Japanese people are not, they are monotonous games, 0 character evolution etc etc :angry:

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<snip>

Unnatural transition from overworld to battle screen to cut scene

A combat system

Heavy reliance to a menu system

Heavy reliance to number-crunching

<snip>

This is just my personal view, but I feel JRPGs are only like this because when they were invented hardware limitation and display resolution and controller limitations basically prevented any of this action all ocurring at once in real-time. It shouldn't be like that anymore.

Now we have HD, superfast hardware, clear graphics and sophisticated control systems all of these things can be retired and everything can happen in one go. Like Mass Effect 2 or Fallout 3 seems to do just fine.

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http://kotaku.com/54...s-japanese-rpgs

I really hope this guy is IRL trolling because this absolutely makes no sense to me

"... players of Eidos games that let players control a singular protagonist—play from their own perspective. Japanese gamers play from the perspective of their character, comfortable playing as a third-party participant with a bird's eye view of the action."

How does that make not sense? D:

It's all about mental state, and I think pigeonholing Western gamers and Japanese gamers into specific groups is probably unfair to them both. Just because he designs his games that way, doesn't mean that all Japanese see them that way.

For me, there are two types of RPGs: one where you create a character to play with, and one where you are controlling a particular person (Link, Lara Croft, James Bond) in a story. Let's face it, how many of you just named Link "Link" whenever you start a new Zelda save file? I do, and I bet many people do, because that's who he IS, and that's what Nintendo refers to him as, not as "player's avatar," but "Link." By creating a character, you put more of yourself into the game. Lara Croft certainly doesn't fit into this category. You're playing Lara Croft, not some random person. So actually, his point is invalid.

If however, he is referring to the difference between first person POV, and third person POV in games, then that's a bit different. That isn't what he stated though, so perhaps Kotaku left something out of the quote. I can't speak to that, since I've only played one first person game, Perfect Dark, a western game.

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I just commented that it didn't make sense to me because he's trying to compare JRPG's to Western RPG's by using Hitman and Tomb Raider, which are not Western RPGs nor RPGs at all.

But like I stated I thought it was because of licensing issues, but since this is from a powerpoint from GDC, Licensing isn't an issue. That's why I'm wondering if it's a translation error, or that he's just out of touch

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Sorry but I highly disagree. The new final fantasy is very much so a Japanese RPG. It has very little to no adventuring at all.

And by Japanese RPG, I mean:

Unnatural transition from overworld to battle screen to cut scene

A combat system

Heavy reliance to a menu system

Heavy reliance to a party system

Author-controlled narrative

Heavy reliance to number-crunching

Funky haircuts and outfits (I put this in just for LOLz) although I gotta hand it to them, they didn't go overboard with the zippers and belt buckles this time around

Mass Effect 2 is a Western Role Playing Game that uses shooter mechanics.

Isn't this the opposite of immersion?

to me, RPGS have leveling, side quests, towns, not linear. Where as adventure games you are a character (or in this case characters) following a linear path and story... (hence FFXIII). I have no beef with the game, i love it. But it's definitely IMO, more on the adventure side... the only thing that differs from this is the battle system (which is amazing btw... best in the FF series IMO so far)

and IMO Mass Effect 2 feels like gears of war with a story and it is slower paced action which lets you upgrade your characters stats. It's like games nowadays are going to a more action oriented route to get more people to play their games because of the popularity of games like gears and call of duty

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to me, RPGS have leveling, side quests, towns, not linear. Where as adventure games you are a character (or in this case characters) following a linear path and story... (hence FFXIII). I have no beef with the game, i love it. But it's definitely IMO, more on the adventure side... the only thing that differs from this is the battle system (which is amazing btw... best in the FF series IMO so far)

But can't Mass Effect 2 be described as leveling, side quests, towns, not linear?

And also, FF and almost all JRPGS have followed a linear path. A large open map does not necessarily mean it's not linear.

and IMO Mass Effect 2 feels like gears of war with a story and it is slower paced action which lets you upgrade your characters stats. It's like games nowadays are going to a more action oriented route to get more people to play their games because of the popularity of games like gears and call of duty

Well, Mass Effect is just one game, but I must admit I really really enjoyed the mechanics of it. But if you look at another Bioware game like Dragon Age it does not use similar mechanics but still succeeds in having a Role Playing Game where the player molds the narration.

(Don't think I'm singling you out, I'm just adding to my points, just enjoying this discussion)

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But can't Mass Effect 2 be described as leveling, side quests, towns, not linear?

And also, FF and almost all JRPGS have followed a linear path. A large open map does not necessarily mean it's not linear.

Well, Mass Effect is just one game, but I must admit I really really enjoyed the mechanics of it. But if you look at another Bioware game like Dragon Age it does not use similar mechanics but still succeeds in having a Role Playing Game where the player molds the narration.

Mass effect 2 is definitely not linear, their are a lot of side quests (not as much as the first) but there are tons to do their. And the face that all your decisons effect your character and the story really make you want to do all of them. I agree about the game, the first one had HUGE pacing issues and they definitely resolved it in the second version. a much better game IMO.

and your point about linearity is true, usually all that side questing and and towns are more of an illusion then anything, but it was a nice one, you know what i mean? it made you get more into the game then anything

(Don't think I'm singling you out, I'm just adding to my points, just enjoying this discussion)

no worries, i'm enjoying it too

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Although i don't play too many RPGs, i probably prefer the Westerns ones more. However one thing i do like in RPGs is a combat system compared real time. This is probably one of the reasons why i prefer KOTOR to Mass Effect.

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Isn't this the opposite of immersion?

Yes, exactly! Now you get it. JRPGs don't want the player to become so immersed in the character that they can't separate the two. JRPGs have the player pretend to be controlling someone else that they can watch from a bird's eye view. That is the difference.

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Yes, exactly! Now you get it. JRPGs don't want the player to become so immersed in the character that they can't separate the two. JRPGs have the player pretend to be controlling someone else that they can watch from a bird's eye view. That is the difference.

+1

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Jim Sterling wrote an interesting article about JRPGs on Destructoid today that caught my attention. The article was written about the requirement of grinding in JRPGs, but this introductory piece really sums it up.

When you cast Libra, you learn this:

Much of what's wrong with JRPG commentary is that many of the subgenre's critics are doing so from a slightly skewed perspective, or are at least writing for audiences who share the same. That perspective is that they view JRPGs expecting them to be role-playing games, when they never really were in the first place. With some exceptions, the vast majority JRPGs are not role-playing games, and the ways that they're different are more apparent now than ever before, when nearly any game can convey complex narrative and lay claim to "RPG-like" character-progression elements.

"RPG" is rapidly becoming the most misused and abused term in gaming, its boundaries expanded so far as to be almost irrelevant to telling people about what a game does and does not do. JRPGs today, by their perceived "stagnation," show how the genre barriers we've subconsciously erected as the gaming audience has expanded are crumbling.

More games and game types than ever are capable of spinning a decent yarn, and it's come to light that JRPGs were only called that because "RPG" was the only term we had for narrative-driven games at the time JRPG were dominant. Sure "W"-RPGs existed (and it's from them I derive this view), but those were generally restricted to PCs, which never quite did succeed at defining what videogames were to the masses. Still, "JRPG" serves as an effective cultural shorthand for "that" type of game, so it's usage will likely continue until we can think of something better.

http://www.destructoid.com/get-me-results-how-to-solve-the-jrpg-grind-167062.phtml

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They seem to forget that Japanese RPGs still sell well in the US so this isn't a matter of not understanding the differences in perspective. Or did they forget that FFX and FFVII are still highly regarded in the US?

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I used to LOVE the Final Fantasy series but ever since 10 came out I stopped playing them, and I've recently got into games like Fallout 3 and Borderlands. Non-linear is so much more enjoyable.

I think I can safely say I'm never going back to J-RPGs until Square-Enix sort themselves out.

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