The Consoles Battlefield


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I think it will depend if Microsoft wins this generation will depend on Natal, will it be amazing and able to be used in games like ACIII? (Doing my own assassinations FTW?) or will it be a gimmick?

This depends solely on the developers and Microsoft, not Natal itself. The problem with the Wii is it has minimal quality control for games, and almost no drive to innovate upon the Wiimote. The Wiimote is great, but seeing as capitalizing on the fact its the Wiimote is easier than making a game that's great we see twenty copies of Wii Sports.

Really can't see Natal taking off in a big way, especially looking at the kind of space requirements it needs.

As was said, the requirement of 4 meters was misrepresented. It was an UP TO nor an AT LEAST. This was corrected by Microsoft.

Not even close, the PS2 outsold the 360 by a HUGE margin, had a massively larger library and far more exclusives. The sales gap between the PS3 and 360 isn't that great and there are very few exclusives compared to the last generation. Xbox Live is the one advantage MS has, but I have to say I still cringe to spend money on it every year and PSN does keep closing the gap (but the gap is still pretty wide). If Sony can keep up the exclusives like they have the past 18 months the sales gap will disappear.

Not sure this generation will have a PS2 that simply dominates all other platforms, the market has become so fragmented.

He didn't say the 360 IS the PS2. He said it is the PS2 "of this generation". In relation to the other consoles, the 360 has the largest library, the best attachment rate, the most AAA titles, the largest community and the biggest exclusives. In that regard, it is exactly what the PS2 was in its lifetime save for maybe the sales number (which respectably go to Nintendo).

First off, the sales gap for the PS3 and 360 are close only because a large portion of the PS3 owners are using it as an entertainment center/Blu-Ray drive. In terms of gaming based sales the 360 is far ahead of the PS3. The PSN is hardly an XBL counterpart, seeing as it lacks party systems, convenient navigation or anything close to the level of XBL. Navigating it is a chore, it looks completely cluttered, and the process is just painful. You say Live's biggest problem is that it isn't free. The way I see it, the fact PSN is not free is its biggest fault. The community is less regulated, content is more convoluted, and navigation is far more irritating than on XBL.

If I were to change one thing about the PSN, it would be creating two entirely seperate sections for the PSP and the PS3. As it is, everything is mashed together in an unintelligible blob. Its absolutely inferior in its design structure.

About the article itself. I have been singing this tune since 2006. The 360 is the ONLY console which is looking forward. The entire console is designed for it. Its modular, its customizable, and it doesn't rely on any insanely new technology at its core. The Wii and PS3 are exact opposites. The Wii, for example, is minimally modular in the controller only. It has no customization save for the controller, and the entire console practically relies on said controller's technology in order to sell. Without the Wiimote, it isn't even a contender for this gen.

Now look at the PS3. It has two entirely new kinds of technology (BR and The Cell), has pretty much no modularity aside from the hard drive and is almost completely lacking any form of customization. They had to ADD it later. This locks the console into its current, static state and almost destroys all future advancement. If any of the two hardware gambles fail, the console is pretty much dead at the end of its life. This is exactly what happened. The Cell lost support, and now Sony has to come up with something entirely different, shortening the life of the system as a result. The PS3 is not just similarly colored to the Original X-Box, but it is the system's spiritual successor. A new idea decently executed with little support and poor planning.

This is why I feel that even if there isn't a clear winner this gen, the true victor will not be in sales. It will be in longevity and influence. Microsoft is set, Nintendo has made a mark (but Microsoft's has the potential to be bigger). If I were asked which was the biggest change to the console and I had to choose between the Wiimote and XBL, I would probably say Live. It is the ONLY and FIRST thing to be added to all current generation consoles which completely revamped the way games are played, bought, and shared. And not just games, but movies, music, television, pictures, etc. And the only one of the three that understands just how much they can get out of it is Microsoft, seeing as they planned to do so from the begging while Sony and Nintendo hobbled along in their shadow.

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He didn't say the 360 IS the PS2. He said it is the PS2 "of this generation". In relation to the other consoles, the 360 has the largest library, the best attachment rate, the most AAA titles, the largest community and the biggest exclusives. In that regard, it is exactly what the PS2 was in its lifetime save for maybe the sales number (which respectably go to Nintendo).

Attach rate is the only point you made that holds up, the rest are too close to call. Give up on the entertainment center/BD player argument for the PS3, the slowly climbing game sales shoots that down, was true a couple years ago, not so much today. The PS3 is loaded with excellent exclusives, in fact better exclusives the last couple years. Library size is closing quickly as well. Community size, tough call but based on unit sales of consoles the size difference is no longer that great. Sorry, not the PS2 in any respect. It's been a long, slow crawl but Sony has parity in many areas now, and owning both the 360 and the PS3 I'm glad to see both doing well, but there is no clear winner this generation. And since both consoles claim to have at least a couple years of life left I think it's safe to say it ain't over until it's over.

I was going to address some of your techincal dissection of the PS3, but it is so wrong I don't know where to start.

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I was going to address some of your techincal dissection of the PS3, but it is so wrong I don't know where to start.

Did IBM not cancel further R&D into The Cell?

http://www.n4g.com/tech/News-431744.aspx

I would say this is a failed technology, no different than HD-DVD or Betamax. Not to mention the horrors it has caused developers. By the way, all your counterpoints are based on sales, which isn't enough. A large number of console owners may not have internet (and therefore no PSN account), PSN accounts are also free (multiple accounts) and no different than PSP accounts (count pollution). It also comes to the fact many people DID buy them as media centers and still use them that way. Its not about how they are buying them now, but how they have been purchased. For most of its lifespan it was nothing but a Blu-Ray player.

In terms of exclusives, it has a few but many of them aren't as big as the 360 exclusives. A good number flopped or didn't live up to expectations (Killzone 2, Lair, Haze, Resistance, MAG), of which almost none of the 360 exclusive AAA titles did (Gears of War 2 and ODST maybe?). Attachment rate for games on the 360 are high, as oppose to the PS3. I have seen many games die once a newer MP game is released on the PS3 (Warhawk, for example) while most 360 games retain a large, dedicated population (even Chromehounds had thousands of dedicated players and most people here have never heard of it).

Multi-platform games are the only areas which the PS3 and 360 contend, and even then a majority of multiplat games are developed on 360 then ported to the PS3 (most of the time directly without any extended optimization) or have larger online communities on the 360 (MW, MW2, Lost Planet, Burnout, etc.) These are facts that cannot be denied. Just because the PS3 is "catching up" doesn't change the fact its gain has been steadily slowing. The point about GT5 is a great one in this article. A game which has been in development for most of the PS3's lifespan and has still yet to release. Sony is notorious for taking extremely long times to release their games (Killzone 2 was a launch title) while the 360 titles rarely miss a deadline by a few months (especially their exclusives).

Being an owner of both consoles I can honestly say that there are almost no exclusives to the PS3 that pique my interest. I have yet to see a game on the system I would want to buy above the God of War games. Shooters are out of the question because of the shooter control layout on the PS3 controller (it literally hurts my hands to play a shooter on a PS3). Most all of its exclusives were lost (Devil May Cry, Soul Calibur, Final Fantasy, Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm, Metal Gear, etc.). I'm not doubting the system. In fact, I want it to succeed. But I have yet to see it really excel. All I can say is that I hate its hardware layout, I hate the PSN, and there are too few exclusives worth buying. I got the system in anticipation of two sequels that have only been announced (Kingdom Hearts III and FF XIII Versus) and even now they are in the same situation as every other PS3 exclusive, either no release date or on hold indefinitely.

Sony doesn't make me any more confident when they lie left and right, either.

BTW - I know I'm sounding fanboyish, but I'm being as objective as possible here. I have been wanting to like the PS3 for this entire generation. I even got one to force myself to get games for it but honestly I blank every time I think about getting one. I just honestly cannot think of a single game I would want for the PS3 (Uncharted isn't my kind of game, nor do I like cinematic experiences such as Heavy Rain or Metal Gear. I might get FF XIII for the PS3 but honestly it doesn't seem like a game to purchase, just to borrow). The only thing the PS3 does better than the 360, in my book, is the Dpad. Thats it, on the entire system. The Dpad is the only significantly superior part of the PS3. And guess what, that ain't even Sony. That's Dualshock.

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Super Mario Galaxy and Zelda are on par with the greatest games this generation - but to say they're leaps and bounds (especially Zelda) is just a slap in the face to games like Uncharted, God of War 3, Heavy Rain, Halo 3 and Gears.

Nintendo has an exceptionally high standard, and it doesn't seem like it in this post, but I absolutely love Zelda/Nintendo and I'd say Zelda has the best potential (well, next to Halo Reach and Natal's bundled game) to walk out with GOTY this year - but that's not really a guarantee. Also, that 28 million number is for America only, while the 67 million number is worldwide.

I placed Uncharted 2 with those games. Halo Reach is more of the same, just squad based now. God War 3 is just that God of War 3, new graphics and a few epics fights but what did they innovate? Heavy Rain is amazing but is simply a story teller and doesn't branch out into much else(yes it did set the bar for story telling but through mostly quicktime). And well gears is another fps. SMG set an awesome platforming standard, Zelda did everything, and Uncharted did a great story with great gameplay. IMO those games have set themselves apart from the rest of this gen with maybe just maybe Heavy Rain joining them because of how they crafted the story.

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I placed Uncharted 2 with those games. Halo Reach is more of the same, just squad based now. God War 3 is just that God of War 3, new graphics and a few epics fights but what did they innovate? Heavy Rain is amazing but is simply a story teller and doesn't branch out into much else(yes it did set the bar for story telling but through mostly quicktime). And well gears is another fps. SMG set an awesome platforming standard, Zelda did everything, and Uncharted did a great story with great gameplay. IMO those games have set themselves apart from the rest of this gen with maybe just maybe Heavy Rain joining them because of how they crafted the story.

Its easy to generalize without going into specifics. I liked Super Mario Galaxy not because it was new, but because it was basically Mario 64 with an upgrade. It honestly wasn't that new, at least no newer than Halo 3, Reach, Uncharted or Heavy Rain. But if you look at the Nintendo games they are not mechanically innovative, merely interface revamping. The only thing really different about the games on the Wii is they use a motion controller. Without that they are hardly innovative.

Now look at games like Halo 3, ODST and Reach. These three games have introduced new content and concepts to how a game can play, as has Uncharted and Heavy Rain. And this is all without the need for a unique controller (save for Heavy Rain).

Halo 3 brought us replays, theater, forge, and an entire website/in-game interface where this content can be shared (not even Far Cry or Far Cry 2 had this streamlined of a system). Halo ODST revamped the survival arena, made it 4 player online co-operative and layered it in a way that it itself could stand as a game. Throw in the sandbox shooter gameplay/storytelling (which was leagues ahead of Far Cry 2 in its execution) and for a game that took less than half a normal development cycle it is a masterpiece. Halo Reach will do the same. You called it squad based, when it has nothing squad based in it. Halo Reach is not squad based, at all (from what Bungie has said). What the game will employ is a complete overhaul of the class system in the form of Loadouts. Set weapon/ability loadouts which are gametype/map dependent, not player dependent. They will also combine this with Arena, a completely new ranking system and the addition of an RPG like store to purchase new aesthetic armor pieces directly from the experience you earned from just playing the game.

While much of this has been done before, and the gameplay is only somewhat modified, the game itself is innovating and inventing new things. Heavy Rain tried this, and didn't quite get there. To me it felt like something I would rather watch than play. But many people enjoyed it and it definitely proved that games don't necessarily have to be about 2000 years in the future/past where saving the world is the only thing that matters. Zelda, Mario Galaxy... good games. But definitely not in the same area of innovation as the titles above.

BTW - Story means nothing in a game. Hate to say it, but its true. Gameplay > Graphics > Story.

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BTW - I know I'm sounding fanboyish, but I'm being as objective as possible here.

Awesome contradiction there.

You do know the Cell is just another variant of the PowerPC architecture, just like the processors in the 360 right? You do know that article you linked only refers to one part of the Cell processor family right? And almost everything else you posted is your personal opinion, which you are firmly entitled too but does not hold up to scrutiny.

Just because you don't care about the PS3 exclusives doesn't mean they aren't good or no one else cares, same goes for hardware layout (whatever that is) and PSN. Neither system is perfect but there is nothing about the 360 that is a run away example of perfection. You have the equation backwards, the PS3 is catching up because outisde of burst like MW2 the 360 is showing signs of slowing, why do you think MS keeps talking up Natal and paid for a couple new exclusives this year? The latest Final Fantasy installment points out the first major flaw in the 360s design, limited optical storage. I'm not saying the 360 is bad by any means, but it is not a clear winner this generation no matter how much you wish it was. Perhaps without RRoD it would have walked away with this gen, but it didn't play out that way and the narrowing sales gap supports this argument.

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Wow, how old are you? Only two good games? God of War 3, Killzone 2, Metal Gear Solid 4, Demons Souls, Wipeout HD, Flower, inFamous, LBP, Valkyria Chronicles, Buzz, Singstar, Uncharted 1/2..... that's just some exclusives I can think of. Let alone the mass of multiplatform ones.

Back on topic the statement is pretty accurate in what they are saying, but really this generation is far from over yet and wouldn't be surprised for both consoles to get even closer in terms of figures as time goes on :)

Little big planet.

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You have the equation backwards, the PS3 is catching up because outisde of burst like MW2 the 360 is showing signs of slowing

But the 360 keeps having record sales year over year, so I don't see where you get that it's slowing? It's showing signs of increasing actually. And with another price drop most likely this year, Halo Reach, Alan Wake, Fable 3, Natal, Splinter Cell, etc, it's only going to continue to climb as it has been.

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Awesome contradiction there.

Its not, read it again. I'm being as objective as possible. Unless you would like to display what complete objectivity is for us? Oh wait, nobody can.

You do know the Cell is just another variant of the PowerPC architecture, just like the processors in the 360 right? You do know that article you linked only refers to one part of the Cell processor family right? And almost everything else you posted is your personal opinion, which you are firmly entitled too but does not hold up to scrutiny.

Um, the 360's processor is nothing like the PS3's. Three cores vs. one core controlling 8 processing regions? Not the same, at all. If they were the same, developers wouldn't have been cringing at the development process for the last few years. And they may not have stopped development entirely, but they did halt the development on the successor. Has there been any recent news articles concerning cell development continuing? If not, there are only two possibilities: Cell development is still frozen or it is under wraps. Which I don't know why it would be. Still, more processors in that "family" doesn't really indicate new development on a replacement for the old Cell. Perhaps newer versions such as the Core 2 Duo vs. the Core 2 Quad. But the article does indicate they have ceased developing anything in relation to Core 2 vs. i5/i7 series processors. From what I can tell (and I could be completely wrong) a family of processors isn't necessarily a new processor, but an upgrade to the old architecture. It that sense, it isn't new. Which could mean that, unless IBM does continue developing a new Cell that will replace the old one, the PS4 will either have an entirely different processor structure or a revamped old Cell with a few more processing regions.

Just because you don't care about the PS3 exclusives doesn't mean they aren't good or no one else cares, same goes for hardware layout (whatever that is) and PSN. Neither system is perfect but there is nothing about the 360 that is a run away example of perfection. You have the equation backwards, the PS3 is catching up because outisde of burst like MW2 the 360 is showing signs of slowing, why do you think MS keeps talking up Natal and paid for a couple new exclusives this year? The latest Final Fantasy installment points out the first major flaw in the 360s design, limited optical storage. I'm not saying the 360 is bad by any means, but it is not a clear winner this generation no matter how much you wish it was. Perhaps without RRoD it would have walked away with this gen, but it didn't play out that way and the narrowing sales gap supports this argument.

First of all, I never said my opinion was a fact for anyone. If you read what I posted, it sounds more like a personal account and opinion than it does a factual statement. The only things I said were facts ARE facts (such as flops, community sizes) and being an interface designer in profession I can pretty easily declare the PSN trash in comparison to XBL's organizational quality. I also never claimed the 360 was perfect, nor did I say the 360 wasn't slowing either. All the consoles are slowing down. It makes sense 2-3 years in. But I'm pretty sure the lack of exclusive releases for the PS3 till now has caused it a lot of catching up to do, and many of its hardcore fans are GT fans (who have been stretched thin for WAY too long). God of War 3 was an alright game. Definitely a good game, but from the impressions of those in the games industry it wasn't very amazing. This leaves what? Little Big Planet and Uncharted as the only two wide audience games which are actually hitting big on the PS3 as exclusives. Killzone 2 has all but been forgotten, MAG is enormously niche and cannot combat with Battlefield's fanbase. Metal Gear is also similar in its nicheness as is Heavy Rain. So what else is there? At least Nintendo actually caters to a wide audience as does Microsoft. Halo, believe it or not, is a wide audience shooter (Forza makes simulation racing easy for others, Gears is a wide audience TPS, Halo Wars a simple RTS and Mass Effect as the RPG. All the 360 is really lacking is an exclusive plat-former although it does have Banjo-Kazooie). The only other one would be MW but that isn't an exclusive anyways.

You also act as if Sony isn't talking up the Move at all when they're the ones bashing Natal and the Wiimote in classic Apple advertising style. And a limit in optical storage is not a flaw at all. The only reason this happened is because of the poor porting job to the 360 by Square. And that's understandable, it was fairly last minute. RROD has nothing to do with this discussion. That is reliability and even with the RROD the 360 has the highest attachment rate of both hardware and software of all the systems. That has to mean something.

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But the 360 keeps having record sales year over year, so I don't see where you get that it's slowing? It's showing signs of increasing actually. And with another price drop most likely this year, Halo Reach, Alan Wake, Fable 3, Natal, Splinter Cell, etc, it's only going to continue to climb as it has been.

What record sales? They sell less than the Wii and moderately more than the PS3 most months, altough they got a nice bounce for the price cut and a very unexpected bounce for MW2. Don't spew press release hype, record breaking first requires a record to break. I would say the same for any PS3 hype, both companies are guility of this kind of marketing. Look at the trends in the graph, overall sales are trending down from last year, pretty much as MS has even said they expected. Sony has never gotten the sustained upward growth they wanted, although had MS held the line on prices this year that might have been a different story. A price drop will bring another spike for the 360, but the sales graph proves my point, the 360 sells well but it is not running away with the generation. Reach and Natal will move some hardware, Alan Wake, Fable 3:More Broken Promises Edition and Splinter Cell likely not (although I am looking forward to Splinter Cell quite a bit).

I'm not knocking the 360, I use my 360 as much as my PS3 and it is an excellent console. But it's pretty far from perfect, just as the PS3 is and neither console runs away with or defines this generation.

And a limit in optical storage is not a flaw at all. The only reason this happened is because of the poor porting job to the 360 by Square. And that's understandable, it was fairly last minute. RROD has nothing to do with this discussion. That is reliability and even with the RROD the 360 has the highest attachment rate of both hardware and software of all the systems. That has to mean something.

Yes, Square can't code, they suck... that is why they lowered the visual quality of the game on the system that is easier to code for :sleep: And RRoD has everything to do with this generation, for if it had not happened MS truly would have run away with it. You keep saying you are not a fanboy, but you sure post like one.

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Did IBM not cancel further R&D into The Cell?

http://www.n4g.com/tech/News-431744.aspx

No, they have not

http://www.hardwareheaven.com/news.php?newsid=344

BTW, Toshiba is now releasing Cell-based televisions. IBM has been building cell-based supercomputers for years, for industrial and technological use, blade servers, and mainframes. It's not dead technology, sorry to shoot that one down with a quick Google and wiki search.

God of War 3 was an alright game. Definitely a good game, but from the impressions of those in the games industry it wasn't very amazing.

Care to source that? Because all of the active developers I talked to personally at GDC were blown away by it.

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Yes, Square can't code, they suck... that is why they lowered the visual quality of the game on the system that is easier to code for :sleep: And RRoD has everything to do with this generation, for if it had not happened MS truly would have run away with it. You keep saying you are not a fanboy, but you sure post like one.

Its not about coding, or lack there of. They merely made what they had run on the 360 with minimal effort. This means no optimization beyond lowering the resolution of textures, maps and audo/video.

No, they have not

http://www.hardwareheaven.com/news.php?newsid=344

BTW, Toshiba is now releasing Cell-based televisions. IBM has been building cell-based supercomputers for years, for industrial and technological use, blade servers, and mainframes. It's not dead technology, sorry to shoot that one down with a quick Google and wiki search.

I was wrong then. But I will say I don't think it will be used for many gaming purposes. Considering what has been mentioned about the good and bad points of the Cell. Although I haven't researched it alot recently. Most of my problems with the Cell is that it is bottlenecked by the RAM and GPU while the 360's only bottleneck is RAM for the most part. The 360 is far more balanced in its hardware than the PS3 and less risky with that hardware.

Care to source that? Because all of the active developers I talked to personally at GDC were blown away by it.

Friends studying for BA gaming degrees, some of the teachers in the gaming industry at my institute, etc. More people than not have said the ending was OK or bad while they enjoyed the game play. So while it may have been a great game, it wasn't ended well. But I would rather reserve judgement for when I play it. So I won't claim this as factual, nor representative of my own opinion. Just me relaying what others have said.

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mmm few people seems to understand what it's all about :laugh: oh well, there's no case

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there's no doubt i love my 360 as a concept, community, feel...best gaming experience ever. but in the long run i believe Sony will have more active consoles. does that matter? talk to the gamertag. they'll do it by keeping the PS3 on the market longer than the 360, and besides, they do have a huge global following. This isn't a bad thing, it wouldn't change the good times i've had thanks to that machine, including here, since i only really got to posting on NW after joining the horde.

btw happy with the maturity of this thread.

now let me at that off white plastic..oh you sweet little thing, i'm gonna co...

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What a crappy "analysis". Observe:

The problem with Nintendo is, of course, that besides the Balance Board and a slight improvement to the Wii controller system last year, there isn’t much that is new and it almost seems that Nintendo has run out of ideas.

So he failed to notice how New Super Mario Bros. Wii ensured that the console was sold out, and that it's still selling like crazy?

The Wii is clearly running out of steam, with February 2010 U.S. shipments coming in at 50% below last year’s level

This is just inane rambling. The guy should read this blog carefully:

http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/

Wii has been completely sold out, and NSMBW has sold like crazy as well. Nintendo is dumping the "core" games like SMG2 and Metroid this summer, but you can bet your ass Nintendo has some "non-core" games up their sleeves that will push consoles again.

http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2010/03/24/endgame-is-coming/

Natal? LOL:

http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2009/12/17/did-microsoft-just-surrender-in-the-disruptive-battle-against-nintendo/

http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2009/06/09/email-natal-doesnt-make-sense/

http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2009/09/03/no-still-cant-take-natal-seriously/

http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2009/11/27/natal-is-the-next-generation-clapper/

These "analyses" by people who don't understand the gaming market is getting old.

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You do realize those are NPD numbers, meaning North America only, correct? Worldwide, Nintendo's market share is nearly that of MS and Sony combined.

And to add to that, I believe the NPD numbers for the Wii were artificially adjusted down after they were inflated towards the end up last year (to make up for that inflation).

It's still not a good trend for Nintendo whatever way you slice it.

What trend? You mean the trend where games like NSMW push Wii consoles like crazy?

If the rumored 360 slim drops the Arcade price by only $25 the sales will be insane

Why? Games sell consoles, not other crappy things.

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Why? Games sell consoles, not other crappy things.

Which is why I don't understand how the Wii is selling so well. Let's be fair, it's games catalogue is hardly brilliant. Yes there are one or two decent titles but on the whole it's 3rd party shovelware nonsense.

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You really need it to be spelt out for you?

Price drop + new hardware = sales

This. The 360 will increase in sales with NATAL regardless but the price drop (if true) will help push them even more.

The same happened when the PS3 dropped in price.

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when the PS2 slim dropped to $125 it sold like mad, and it was already a generation old

plus the mentality that "games sell consoles" is really an outdated way of thinking/marketing

I know more people that bought a ps3 as a blu-ray player/media center and a casual gaming unit than an actual full-time hardcore gaming unit

I really think a lot of arguments like "games sell consoles" is really a product of internet babel because in reality consumers outside of an internet community really care about value rather than the total number of games they play. That and listening to their peers. Most people out there don't even know that the wii and ps3 play netflix. Microsoft did a great job marketing the Xbox as THE Netflix online distribution console.

Let's face it, most people that are true gaming enthusiasts already own 2 or more systems. The rest of this generation's job is to spark interest in those who might be interesting in playing games.

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