Linux is NOT Windows

[ichi]

Look at how rough that KDE4 launch was. It was so bad the developers had to retroactively call it a beta for several releases.

Didn't they explicitly state that it was a release meant for developers from day one? Or before day one, actually?

Sure the hype about the "4.0" version number spoiled it, but I don't remember it being "marketed" (so to speak) by the KDE team as a final, stable release.

To be honest I kinda stopped following the KDE news the day I tried the early betas and realized it was not going to be my kind of thing, but that's what I remember anyway.

You are right though about hobbyist projects often not paying enough attention to quality in major releases. Or, to put it other way, letting features alone define major releases rather than quality and stability.

On the other hand open source doesn't equal hobbyist quality or development process (even when done as a hobby), same as closed source doesn't equal professional.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

I am aware of that. However given that he specified the forums as being paid-for, I was addressing that instance. Most people just call somebody they know or the place they got the computer from. But like I said, the majority of people who go to forums for help do not go to forums they paid for. The overwhelming majority of support forums are free.

People not knowing what betas are is irrelevant to the expectation of releases to work. Just as people expect products off the shelf to work they too expect their software to work. Since there's no money or jobs on the line they can release software that still has crippling bugs. Look at how rough that KDE4 launch was. It was so bad the developers had to retroactively call it a beta for several releases.

I will agree to that. Paid support forums do exist but they fill a relatively small niche between those that just call the official support telephone number (and probably reformat their computer) and those that seek out the information for free (one needs to have somewhat of a discerning eye). I don't know anybody who uses them.

Didn't they explicitly state that it was a release meant for developers from day one? Or before day one, actually?

Sure the hype about the "4.0" version number spoiled it, but I don't remember it being "marketed" (so to speak) by the KDE team as a final, stable release.

To be honest I kinda stopped following the KDE news the day I tried the early betas and realized it was not going to be my kind of thing, but that's what I remember anyway.

You are right though about hobbyist projects often not paying enough attention to quality in major releases. Or, to put it other way, letting features alone define major releases rather than quality and stability.

On the other hand open source doesn't equal hobbyist quality or development process (even when done as a hobby), same as closed source doesn't equal professional.

There is a long-standing general advice not to trust the first edition of a new major release (2.0, 3.0, 4.0, 5.0, 6.0, etc...) and it can be doubly true of community supported software. They usually have most of the issues worked out by the .1 release (i.e. version 4.1). However, this isn't anything completely new or completely linked with community software. WordPerfect 5.0 wasn't widely regarded as a trophy but WordPerfect 5.1 endured for years (and for that matter 6.0 sucked).

[carmatic]

I started using Linux about 5 years ago. I loved it. All that tinkering was right up my alley. As the years went on and the tinkering continued I grew weary of it. I honestly boot into Windows 7 more than I boot into Linux these days. I played around with 10.04 and the wireless doesn't work. I really don't know if I want to continue tinkering.

i dont understand, if linux is such a community based thing, surely you are not tinkering for yourself, but for the community? once you find the answer, its everyone's to share... just like when someone figures out how to solve a problem identical to yours, its your solution as well

maybe the problem is that manufacturers dont have support for linux, and its the problem of having too many devices to support out there which is also windows's problem... if that is the case, what if a common spec of computer can be agreed upon by the community, with people knowing which chipset is supported, which brand and model of something has that chipset, all the way down to helping each other find where to buy such a specific item

and if the spec is strictly cost-controlled, using only cheap parts , more people can afford it as a secondary computer for when it cant even get online to ask questions in forums etc... this way, linux can be seen as a hobby rather than a necessity, where failures are much more tolerable than if it had happened on their main computer

of course this involves buying things and makes linux sort of not free, but what you are paying for is a layer of redundancy , and if you follow the specs, you are also paying for convenience in getting things to work... in the end, you will gain linux experience , and probably be alot smarter about computers in general as well... not to mention an extra computer?

[aeron]

of course this involves buying things and makes linux sort of not free, but what you are paying for is a layer of redundancy , and if you follow the specs, you are also paying for convenience in getting things to work... in the end, you will gain linux experience , and probably be alot smarter about computers in general as well... not to mention an extra computer

This isn't only directed at you, but I've noticed a lot of people in this thread and others make the same mistake when referring to Linux being free. There's a distinction between free as in speech and free as in beer. GNU/Linux was designed to be the former... Its purpose isn't necessarily just to provide a no-cost OS, and while that is part of the deal, it amounts to much more than just an OS for cheap people . See this page to get a better idea of what I mean.

[Behemoth]

I enjoyed that too when I was a teenager, but the way I see it... you can deliberately get to where you want using the long way, but you won't want to do them all your life. My prediction is that sooner or later users like you grow up, and switch back to Windows/OSX, or at least graduate from Fedora/Arch to less problematic distros like Ubuntu.

Wow - what a bold statement. So once we all grow up we'll use Windows/OSX or Ubuntu? I can't wait to grow up!

FWIW, I've spent 15 years using Windows, and still have to use it at work, so I'm not sure that you're 'grow up' statement should be painted with such a broad stroke. Also, I wouldn't qualify Fedora or Arch as problematic. People like what they like. Leave it at that.

And I'm perfectly happy with using GNU/Linux for a permanent solution for an OS, in fact, I look forward to it. I'll give it a 7/10 on the troll attempt.

[Negi]

Wow - what a bold statement. So once we all grow up we'll use Windows/OSX or Ubuntu? I can't wait to grow up!

FWIW, I've spent 15 years using Windows, and still have to use it at work, so I'm not sure that you're 'grow up' statement should be painted with such a broad stroke. Also, I wouldn't qualify Fedora or Arch as problematic. People like what they like. Leave it at that.

And I'm perfectly happy with using GNU/Linux for a permanent solution for an OS, in fact, I look forward to it. I'll give it a 7/10 on the troll attempt.

I'm sorry if it came off as offensive. There's nothing wrong with tinkering, but when you've been everywhere and done everything, it's likely that you'll just want to settle down with something that works, and more often that not that "something" is Windows/OSX/*buntu. I was just making a claim based on my personal experiences and observations, though I suppose it could've been worded better.

Besides, how do you troll a mature grownup? Answer: you can't. It just doesn't work.

[Behemoth]

I'm sorry if it came off as offensive. There's nothing wrong with tinkering, but when you've been everywhere and done everything, it's likely that you'll just want to settle down with something that works, and more often that not that "something" is Windows/OSX/*buntu. I was just making a claim based on my personal experiences and observations, though I suppose it could've been worded better.

Besides, how do you troll a mature grownup? Answer: you can't. It just doesn't work.

No biggie. I know what you were saying, and we all have made posts we could have worded better (I have mad a TON). ;).

Your point is understood, and I agree that at some point in life you get tired of 'tinkering'. But, honestly, I don't believe GNU/Linux requires much tinkering once you get it the way you want it (the same with Windows), and the rest is just routine maintenance. Also, GNU/Linux has come a long way in 14+ years, and you never know how user-friendly some of the future distros are going to be.

Regardless, I completely understand your argument.

[Growled Member]

i dont understand, if linux is such a community based thing, surely you are not tinkering for yourself, but for the community? once you find the answer, its everyone's to share... just like when someone figures out how to solve a problem identical to yours, its your solution as well

I think the community aspect of Linux is highly over rated in some ways. Most of the time it's every person for themselves. Sure, the community does help you some but no more than the Windows community does. To be honest, if I tinker and find a solution for something, in a few months time I've forgotten the steps I made to accomplish it.

[Solid Knight]

I think the community aspect of Linux is highly over rated in some ways. Most of the time it's every person for themselves. Sure, the community does help you some but no more than the Windows community does. To be honest, if I tinker and find a solution for something, in a few months time I've forgotten the steps I made to accomplish it.

Or never even told anyone anyway.

[carmatic]

This isn't only directed at you, but I've noticed a lot of people in this thread and others make the same mistake when referring to Linux being free. There's a distinction between free as in speech and free as in beer. GNU/Linux was designed to be the former... Its purpose isn't necessarily just to provide a no-cost OS, and while that is part of the deal, it amounts to much more than just an OS for cheap people . See this page to get a better idea of what I mean.

striving for free speech is a good thing, but it cannot be accomplished without a couple of prerequisites... to me, linux being free of charge is an effect of linux being free as in free speech, but none of that means anything if it doesnt work on your computer... thats why i was thinking of community-specced machines, they might not have much in terms of performance because they are cheap, but a community and a distro focused on a fixed set of specs like that would make all the use of the machine...?

also i think that when a newbie asks a 'stupid' question, people should see it as an opportunity to spread Linux rather than to make fun of the newbie... its tedious to repeat the same solution to every new person who comes by, but the programmers should think in terms that this is what they have been coding for, and once the new users have become experienced, they can in turn convert more newbies

[Charisma Veteran]

...also i think that when a newbie asks a 'stupid' question, people should see it as an opportunity to spread Linux rather than to make fun of the newbie... its tedious to repeat the same solution to every new person who comes by, but the programmers should think in terms that this is what they have been coding for, and once the new users have become experienced, they can in turn convert more newbies

I agree. But as mentioned before, the elitist attitude that tends to belittle those with questions is starting to fade away. I think it's really only going to be a minority of smug "bullies"... you know, the kids who always had to put others down to feel better about themselves? They grow up (in some ways, not always others) and find a new way to falsely stroke their ego. These people are to be ignored; there are plenty of places to get good help these days. Like here :)

[VII7]

Well, it's 4 years old article many thing said, don't even stand today like:

Linux pretty much started out life as a hacker's hobby. It grew as it attracted more hobbyist hackers. It was quite some time before anybody but a geek stood a chance of getting a useable Linux installation working easily. Linux started out "By geeks, for geeks." And even today, the majority of established Linux users are self-confessed geeks.

Yet there are many distros and some or geekier then others like Gentoo Linux for example - or you could simply move to FreeBSD... :)

That's was my point in that Linux sucks thread. I've seen some very nasty and vulgar replies towards new users asking simple questions.

True, and then one dick leads to another (not in a gay way) and less people share their experience as in - "nobody helped me when I was a beginner, why should I?" .... So that leaves the community gurus for helping and some of the new "Windows Users" - the ones that understand thing faster and didn't had to ask for help (not more then google can offer) and used to helping from Windows communities.

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Most forget one very important thing... Linux is just recently aiming for Desktop, as in the last years - yet Windows had this target since Windows 95 and made a huge leap with Windows 98 and the support for games and that was just the beginning.... Back then, 95% of current Linux users wouldn't even look at it... :alien: Yet that's when i started using it, but that was Red Hat and "had" to learn to use it cause Windows wasn't an alternative for this purpose back then.