It used to do more: Sony's flip-flopping PS3 history

11,373 · May 10, 2010

Sony having bit off far more than they could chew with the PS3 isn't news :p

4,330 · May 10, 2010

Finally a good article.

Sonys gonna continue to go downhill this generation. Althou I do have to say with the news of LBP2, my 60gb PS3 might actually be used for a PS3 game for once.. Overall, BC was NEVER a big stress on the system, so a $600 systme taking a price cut to $400 or 300 could of retained the feature.

I love how sony states "not many people are looking into a PS3" to bad they dont realize retail wise, thats the FIRST THING MOST PEOPLE ASK. You know why? Because last gen PS2 was the KING. Hell Ive had my PS2 forever, that now my brother has.

The first thing I looked into was "full bc, yay". But the price. But when they dropped priced I was looking forward to buying it, and oh look, only software emulation(1st gen 80), so i held off and waiting for hardware BC to come back, nope never did.

Its surprising how many PS2 games we still sell, or best buy / kmart / target / shop ko sell. They dont have new games anymore, but they have these bins every once in awhile with "whatever you pick $5-10". Hell we have PS2'ers that move over to a WII or 360, or keep there PS2 and dont go PS3.

Its sad really. The biggest community Sony ever had, they lost half of it, and I can tell you thats a fact. A lot of people that OWN the PS2 didnt have $50-60 for a game, we get people in that still buy games like MGS/Kingdom/Killzone/Shadow/etc that they said they didnt have money to buy. To them its brand new, to use its 4-5 years old.

Those are the people that sony should of catered too. Actually we had a guy come in like that in march ot buy a 60gb, we had 1 shipped for him and he dropped $349.99 on it. But he said it was worth it because his growing PS2 library(rummage sales, sales, his own library, cousins, etc) was fully playable on the PS3. He wasnt ready to ditch it. But he said if it wasnt for the controller and his love for the playstation, he would drop sony in a heartbeat and get a wii/360.

Sorry to say, but sony messed up this GEN. Hopefully next gen is better, and i might get a playstation again

----

Ironman, well said. For those who are arguring "what about firmware v1.0" or etc, what if you just got a car with the onboard GPS that does video/audio/etc all off a SD card Flash Drive(this is becoming a standard now), and one day you went to the dealer and they removed that because most people dont use it(which its becoming common, but many people still dont use the multifunction features besides gps) and one day you went to use it, what would you do?

You would be very ****ed on why they removed it, but then in there TOS when you signed the work order, it says (we can make any "necessary" changes to the vehicle as we like for your safety or whatever and you couldnt do anything, then what?) You would be **** out of luck and couldnt do anything. You didnt expect them to remove stuff ADVERTISED TOO YOU, but they did and you got screwed.

Same deal with sony.

39,379 · May 10, 2010

People probably said the same thing about removing Backwards Compatibility....

and yes, I am aware Sony would never remove Bluray playback

So why did you even quote me and make your first statement?

8,533 · May 10, 2010

So why did you even quote me and make your first statement?

He was making a point. Rather than getting held up on a non-issue maybe you should reply to him seriously.

5,750 · May 10, 2010

Wireless goes widely unused.

And you know this how? And the purpose of removing this would be?

The browser is probably minimal as well.

It's all software so they could update it if exploited. There's no reason to totally remove it.

Same for media streaming from the PC.

They could. There is no reason to (monetary or security).

So it shouldn't matter if any of these things are removed from a gaming machine, right? Hell, they removed features they were promoting already (backwards compatibility) so what makes you think they won't remove anything else that they used to sell the console in the past?

They need to have a good reason for doing so. From what I understand, Other OS was removed in response to somebody making an exploit.

8,533 · May 10, 2010

And you know this how? And the purpose of removing this would be?

It's all software so they could update it if exploited. There's no reason to totally remove it.

They could. There is no reason to (monetary or security).

They need to have a good reason for doing so. From what I understand, Other OS was removed in response to somebody making an exploit.

So why was Backwards Compatibility removed? What was their good reason there? Exploitation? I doubt it. That is my point, they can remove any of it for any reason they want. Whatever they deem as a "good reason" is good enough for them. There is nothing to prevent them from doing any of this.

5,737 · May 10, 2010

a good friend of mine has an original PS3 with Full PS2 BC meaning it has all the PS2 hardware stuffed inside as well so nothing is Emulated , now if you all remember sony released some SKU models that ended up with ether emulation of the PS2 GPU or CPU because the lack of ether the real GPU hardware from PS2 or CPU hardware from the PS2 so i do thing that had something to do with them cutting BC is cause BC was never perfect on those system with ether the GPU or CPU hardware from PS2 missing

39,379 · May 10, 2010

So why was Backwards Compatibility removed? What was their good reason there? Exploitation? I doubt it. That is my point, they can remove any of it for any reason they want. Whatever they deem as a "good reason" is good enough for them. There is nothing to prevent them from doing any of this.

To save money, reduce manufacturing costs and let them get to a slim console much quicker. Removing BC removed a whole chip and other transistors.

/facepalm

What a train wreck of a topic in here as usual, bashing galore.

5,750 · May 10, 2010

So why was Backwards Compatibility removed? What was their good reason there? Exploitation? I doubt it. That is my point, they can remove any of it for any reason they want. Whatever they deem as a "good reason" is good enough for them. There is nothing to prevent them from doing any of this.

Reduce cost. There was also a bit about it being slightly problematic.

3,497 · May 10, 2010

While I like the information being posted, in the future could you not use colours ? On the Darkside theme that text is near unreadable.

On a side note, I purchased my PS3Slim under the assumption it would play PS2 games ( based on using my former roommates original PS3 ). If I knew that what I know now, I wouldn't have purchased it. I love the games on it, but I wanted more.. I would have at least waited for a better deal than what I got.

8,533 · May 10, 2010

To save money, reduce manufacturing costs and let them get to a slim console much quicker. Removing BC removed a whole chip and other transistors.

/facepalm

What a train wreck of a topic in here as usual, bashing galore.

Reduce cost. There was also a bit about it being slightly problematic.

You guys don't read, do you? That was an excuse, not a reason. The real reason was to push PS3 game sales and more than likely PS2 Slim sales. Not to reduce costs. It was actually stated by several sources that backwards compatability being removed would provide around $10 in price reduction (including the Sony rep that I talked to in person). Minuscule in comparison to the $600 price tag at the time.

@audio - Why remove it before making the Slim then? What is the point? At least then there would still be a feature upgrade for buying a normal PS3.

Price drops are due to lower cost of blu-ray lens and shrinking of the cpu/gpu chips.

CEO told investor's that the removal of PS2 BC / other components was not dramatically reducing cost, it was to push ps3 game sales.

http://kotaku.com/gaming/spin/jack-tretton-says-dropping-bc-wasnt-for-cost-measures-312628.php

(Taken from Wall Street Journal)

According to the Wall Street Journal's paraphrasing of SCEA boss Jack

Tretton, the removal of PS2 backward compatibility and other components

isn't "dramatically reducing Sony's cost of manufacturing" on Sony's

behemoth console.

Instead, the handicapping of the PS3 was part of an effort to

"encourage buyers of the entry-level PlayStation 3 to purchase more

games designed specifically for the new system."

39,379 · May 10, 2010

You guys don't read, do you? That was an excuse, not a reason. The real reason was to push PS3 game sales and more than likely PS2 Slim sales. Not to reduce costs. It was actually stated by several sources that backwards compatability being removed would provide around $10 in price reduction (including the Sony rep that I talked to in person). Minuscule in comparison to the $600 price tag at the time.

When you're losing $200-300 per console you think $10 won't make a difference? And your "Sony rep you talked to in person" is not a valid source for me.

Even if we go with that, 1 million sales is a saving of $10 million.

So yeah it was a reason, any business could tell you that when they're bleeding money on a multi-million selling product, but here we are reliving 2008 on Neowin again fuelled by the same stupid arguments you all trashed the Sony section with back then.

Looks like it's about time for that new supposed Neowin rule to actually be used -_-

5,572 · May 10, 2010

So why did you even quote me and make your first statement?

Because it was making a point to your comment "No one is removing Blu Ray playback", back when the PS3 was first released I bet someone said No one is removing Backwards Compatibility. And of course this is a bashing thread, some people are actually ****ed off that Sony has removed features from a console - that is not something that has been done with consoles of the past (normally its just the opposite, add features - not remove). Luckily I have not been affected by the removal of said features (BC would have been nice to play GoW series but I now have that option).

12,983 · May 10, 2010

To save money, reduce manufacturing costs and let them get to a slim console much quicker. Removing BC removed a whole chip and other transistors.

/facepalm

What a train wreck of a topic in here as usual, bashing galore.

Looks like it's about time for that new supposed Neowin rule to actually be used -_-

well the topic is about how the ps3 is removing features, so are people suppose to praise sony for this?

and Emn1ty is right... it was more to push sales of ps3 games and ps2 slim sales. I do beleive they were saving a tiny bit of money by removing the parts, but what was the reason for removing backwards compability via software emulatation that the newer (80gig model wasn't it?) phat models had? I still do see why they can't re-push that software via a firmware upgrade so at least mode ps2 games will work on the ps3. And Emn1ty sourced a kotaku artcle that etempest posted...

im sure no one here meant to offend your lifelong pal the playstation... just keep defending sony for screwing over their customers.

What if you take your car in for service and they say "we took out the air conditioning but added rain-sensing windshield wipers." When you bought it you might've made the decision based on what the item your buying included. Yes, it's nice to have new things but you can't expect someone to purchase something based on what they may or may not add or remove.

perfect analogy (Y)

39,379 · May 10, 2010

Because it was making a point to your comment "No one is removing Blu Ray playback", back when the PS3 was first released I bet someone said No one is removing Backwards Compatibility. And of course this is a bashing thread, some people are actually ****ed off that Sony has removed features from a console - that is not something that has been done with consoles of the past (normally its just the opposite, add features - not remove). Luckily I have not been affected by the removal of said features (BC would have been nice to play GoW series but I now have that option).

You agreed with my point, so I didn't really need to hear the small violin at the same time. We've had about 80 topics over the last few years consisting of what IronMan thought was news, you would've thought people would think they were heard the first time.

2,536 · May 10, 2010

I don't think anyone is trying to bash the PS3 out right. I know I'm not. Hell, look at the game collection thread. I've got nothing but love for my PS3. It's just worrisome that they can and will remove a feature through a firmware upgrade. I know they removed the capability for BC on PS3s some time ago, and it was a costs issue. Fine, that works with me. What bugs me is if some vulnerability is discovered using BC as a venue, we, and "we" meaning those of us with fully BC PS3s, may have to choose whether we want to continue playing newer PS3 games and connecting to PSN, or being able to keep our BC. I am actually worried about that now, unfortunately.

39,379 · May 10, 2010

I don't think anyone is trying to bash the PS3 out right. I know I'm not. Hell, look at the game collection thread. I've got nothing but love for my PS3. It's just worrisome that they can and will remove a feature through a firmware upgrade. I know they removed the capability for BC on PS3s some time ago, and it was a costs issue. Fine, that works with me. What bugs me is if some vulnerability is discovered using BC as a venue, we, and "we" meaning those of us with fully BC PS3s, may have to choose whether we want to continue playing newer PS3 games and connecting to PSN, or being able to keep our BC. I am actually worried about that now, unfortunately.

Think about how realistic that is and think about how much you're just fear scaremongering yourself due to all the trash people have posted since Linux was removed.

No one seems to comprehend the difference, Linux is open source, the PS3 OS is not. One can be patched day 0 by Sony, the other has to have patch requests sent to the Linux distributors. The sooner people realize that the less "omg Blu Ray playback could be taken away!!!111" junk won't continually be posted in here.

MS patched their exploit in NXE didn't they? As I said, game OS, closed, Linux, open source. MS/Sony have complete control over their OS, Sony do not have complete control over other people's OS (Linux). They had partial control of the GPU through the hypervisor, but not full control of the OS (flavour of Linux) you install.

Don't get caught up in the irrational thinking of others, or well do get caught up in it and enjoy car analogies and fear of firmware updates from here on out.

8,533 · May 10, 2010

Think about how realistic that is and think about how much you're just fear scaremongering yourself due to all the trash people have posted since Linux was removed.

No one seems to comprehend the difference, Linux is open source, the PS3 OS is not. One can be patched day 0 by Sony, the other has to have patch requests sent to the Linux distributors. The sooner people realize that the less "omg Blu Ray playback could be taken away!!!111" junk won't continually be posted in here.

MS patched their exploit in NXE didn't they? As I said, game OS, closed, Linux, open source.

Don't get caught up in the irrational thinking of others, or well do get caught up in it and enjoy car analogies and fear of firmware updates from here on out.

Saying it won't doesn't mean anything. The fact they HAVE done this several times now and losing features is more common for the PS3 than gaining them is really an issue. There is perfectly legitimate reasons to fear the removal of more features. Sony has proven they can and will remove features if they want to.

6,330 · May 10, 2010

I'm pretty sure more features have been added than removed.

Far more

39,379 · May 10, 2010

I'm pretty sure more features have been added than removed.

Far more

List of all the changes - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_system_software

Clearly only a few on there since 1.10 Coldgunner, don't get carried away in your statement

May 10, 2010

To lose something, first they need to have something to gain. Sony don't remove things for their health. I'm sure there is 100 people working in an office in Toyko busy thinking what they are removing next. I mean, Sony is bleeding in profits and have nothing better to do. Please, logical thinking is so fun.

And there is no single reason to remove BC. Cost saving yes, if you deny this, you are a total idiot. But surely they would also had factored in that they might increase Slim Sales while increasing PS3 game sales. Which they need to do to push out hardware while making profit from those that mattered, owners of the consoles. It does not make sense for Sony when while they are making a loss in hardware to have gamers buying games that can be played by old hardware where they actually make sales. And they need developers to abandon PS2 as well.

Linux is self explanatory.

So what do they have to gain by removing Blu-Ray? Yes, I'm sure they would rather you buy a Blu-Ray player instead, where profit potential is lower.

8,533 · May 10, 2010

I'm pretty sure more features have been added than removed.

Far more

Software or hardware? I'm not talking about after launch, but from its announcement. It has lost a ton of hardware and software features since its original announcement. I know you guys may think it crazy to consider those, but they are still losses. I've seen far more important features removed than added. There are a select few things that have been added, but those don't compare to B/C. That was the biggest screw up so far, even beyond Linux. Removing a major feature that many consumers actually care about is just moronic. Sony has betrayed their users several times now and have lied their way through it.

6,729 · May 10, 2010

bashing galore.

The irony....

Back on topic, it's really too bad they have been removing so many features that they advertised. From a business stand point, I understand what they are doing. From a consumer stand point, it doesn't look good however.

8,533 · May 10, 2010

I feel I need to go through all these changes one by one so that I can outline you that a basic software change is not a CHANGE. This list you supplied is fluff. Lets grab what matters.

Green=addition

Red=removal

Blue=addition already available on other consoles

* PlayStation Network services and Remote Play for the 60 GB model was added.

* Account Management was added.

* Added compatibility of USB devices for PlayStation 2 format games.

* Added USB webcam support.

* Added Folding@home client.

* Added background downloading feature (ability to download while doing something else).

* Added an on-screen QWERTY keyboard in addition to the standard PlayStation on-screen keyboard.

* First version to support software emulation on PS1/PS2 games for PAL units. PS3 playback improved

* Support for Bluetooth keyboards and mice.

* Added Remote Play support for the 20 GB model.

* Added the ability to play original PlayStation format games downloaded from the PlayStation Store.

* Added rumble functionality for USB accessories which support it when playing PS2 games.

* Ability to upscale PS1 and PS2 games

* Ability to copy PS1/PS2 game saves from PS3 to Memory Cards using a Memory Card adapter.

* Remote Play over the Internet now an option. Broadband connection and PSP firmware version 3.50, or newer, is required.

* Support for playback of AVC High Profile (H.264/MPEG-4 AVC) format video was added.

* Ability to sort games that are saved on the PlayStation 3

* Ability to eject a game disc using the controller.

* Playback of AVCHD-format video files that are saved on Memory Stick media or on the hard disk of a digital video camera.

* Wallpaper feature for the background of XMB was added.

* Adds support for DualShock 3 controller

* Ability to modify the PlayStation 3 XMB Home Menu icons or background design by using a theme compiler

* Ability to create playlists to group content under [Music] and [Photo].

* [Vibration Function] has been added as an option under [Controller Settings] in the menu that appears when the PS button on the wireless controller is pressed.

* Ability to view video content (as a progressive download) as it is being downloaded from PlayStation Store

* Ability to use the PlayStation Eye camera for voice / video chat.

* DSD-to-DTS conversion has been removed again. Optical output from SACD remains possible but in stereo only.

* DivX, XviD and VC-1 (WMV) have been added to the types of files that can be played.

* Users can now play PlayStation game discs on a PSP with remote play (this feature was not announced).

* The PlayStation 3 RSX access hack via Linux has been blocked.

* Support for PlayStation 2 games with optional and mandatory installs.

* Ability to resume playing a DVD/BD from the point where previously stopped, even if the disc is removed then re-inserted to the console, or the console is turned off entirely.

* Other OS Wake-On-Lan support was added.

* Redesigned PlayStation Store

* Improves the playback quality of some PlayStation format software.

* Support for MP3 Surround format audio has been added.

* Video content stored on the hard drive can now be upscaled to HD quality.

* The ability to access the XMB while playing PlayStation 3 format software has been added.

* Players can now collect PlayStation Network Trophies in games that support the feature.

* New page added to profile of users under [Players Met] which shows the last game played with that user.

* Improves the playback quality of some PlayStation 3 and PlayStation format software.

* The PS3 and/or wireless controllers can now be set to turn off automatically after a set period of inactivity.

* The official PS3 bluetooth headset is now supported and a "high-quality (HQ)" mode, which allows higher-clarity voice communication, has been added for this headset.

* Copy-protected videos purchased from the PlayStation Store can now be backed up to an external storage device and then restored to PS3?s internal hard drive for playback.

* Videos purchased for the PSP can now be transferred to the PS3 for playback.

* [install Other OS] and [Default System] have been removed (PS3 slim units only).

* BRAVIA Sync allowing control of the XMB by BRAVIA TV remote control (PS3 slim units only).

* Added [Facebook] menu item under [Account Management] allowing the user to change Facebook sharing and account settings.

* Added the option to automatically send updates to the user's Facebook profile when Trophies are unlocked; when items are downloaded from the PlayStation Store; or for in-game events (in compatible games).

* PSP Minis can now be played via emulation.

* Certain data can be transferred from one PS3 to another using a LAN cable.

* The [install Other OS] and [Default System] features have been disabled from the original PS3s.

* VAIO PC is available as an option in Remote Play (to be activated later)

* Preparation for 3D support

This list is all backwards compatibility changes:

* The operating stability when outputting upscaled PlayStation2 format software has been improved.

* Improves the playback quality of some PlayStation 2 format software.

* Ability to upscale PS1 and PS2 games

* Ability to copy PS1/PS2 game saves from PS3 to Memory Cards using a Memory Card adapter.

* Backwards compatibility (via emulation) for PS1 and PS2 games on models lacking the Emotion Engine was improved.

* Added rumble functionality for USB accessories which support it when playing PS2 games.

* Saved data from PlayStation format software now usable on both PSP and PS3 systems.

* First version to support software emulation on PS1/PS2 games for PAL units.PS3 playback improved

* Expanded support for PlayStation 2 format software titles.

* Fixed graphical glitches on PlayStation and PlayStation 2 format games that may cause jagged graphics.

* Expanded compatibility of PlayStation and PlayStation 2 format games.

* Added compatibility of USB devices for PlayStation 2 format games.

* Users can now play PlayStation game discs on a PSP with remote play (this feature was not announced).

* Backwards compatibility (via emulation) for PS1 and PS2 games on models lacking the Emotion Engine was improved (Update was also unannounced but evident in Sony's backwards compatibility search site).

* Support for PlayStation 2 games with optional and mandatory installs.

* Improves the playback quality of some PlayStation format software.

* Improves the playback quality of some PlayStation 3 and PlayStation format software.

Now lets look at what else REALLY matters in here.