It used to do more: Sony's flip-flopping PS3 history

[Nick H. Supervisor]

I can see this thread getting closed again...

At the end of the day, isn't the point here that Sony could remove any feature, rather than that they would? We can run round in circles all day talking about why they would/wouldn't remove a feature like media playback, but the point here is that they could do it, and the consumer is supposed to just lie down and take it.

From their history with the PS3, we can't accept anything that Sony says as definitive, and that alone gives us the right as PS3/PSP etc. owners to be worried about our purchases.

[seta-san]

frankly i don't really care about the other os being removed. i tried it. it sucked. it would be infinitely more worthwhile if users had access to just 2mb of the framebuffer memory. i get you people are upset about the removal of any advertised feature. i'm sure you feel like it's somesort of breach of contract or false advirtising but if you actuallyl bought a ps3 with the intent of running linux on it as anything but a novelty you really need to kill yourself now because it's all down hill from here. In all honesty you guys need to start asking for the media card readers back if you want something worthwhile. I honestly don't know what sony was thinking when they made the otheros to begin with it served no purpose to any gamer. Just be happy that they are continually shrinking the damn thing making it more affordable, energy efficent, lighter, and overall better more coincise system than what was originally sold.

[Noveed]

One thing that has bothered me, does software BC require no extra hardware correct? if it doesnt then why not include it other then to push ps3 sales?

In the EU we only had the software option and I know it was not perfect but I would have used it.

As for OtherOS I used it and I hate the fact they removed it. I am a customer and all who say my opinion/usage is worthless etc since YOU didnt use it please realise OTHERS did! (points at Audioboxer aka Jack Tretton)

I hate the way how AB trashes everyone elses opinions and states its all a "non issue" and we, paying customers are just speaking junk. You sir are the real Troll/Tretton!

Dude chill out, thread was literally re-opened and you people are at it again, less of the personal stuff more of the on topic stuff. If he wants to defend sony's decision/the console then let him, the general consensus amongst people is that it should not have been removed

[1337ish]

Dude chill out, thread was literally re-opened and you people are at it again, less of the personal stuff more of the on topic stuff. If he wants to defend sony's decision/the console then let him, the general consensus amongst people is that it should not have been removed

Yeh point taken, I did go back to redit but the edit lock out here is very short it appears.

[Ironman273]

My opinion is not so much about the actual things that are taken out. You can argue all you want about whether people used the Alternate OS function or if backwards compatibility saved money. The worrying part to me is Sony's attitude about all of this, which I think the article makes clear. Sony doesn't care about the consumer as long as there's a buck to be made. Look at the whole sixaxis thing. They literally went back and said "Yeah, we know we lied, but what did you want us to do? We wanted to sell you stuff!" They could've pushed the sixaxis without lying or putting down rumble (since the competitors had it) but they decided to take the low road.

And this isn't new. Here we're just talking release stuff. What about the stuff that was promised at the infamous 2005 E3?

Given the track record I don't think fears of other key features being taken out unwarranted. They've shown that they'll do whatever they want regardless of the consumer.

[KoL Veteran]

why couldn't they? they technically could. it's just software that plays the movies... would they? doubtful, but i would never put anything by sony. They only infected thousands upon thousands of computers with a rootkit (which was damn near impossible to remove)

Sony, the main company behind Blu-Ray will remove Blu-Ray playback from the best selling Blu-Ray player? C'MON (Kevin Butler voice :laugh: )

[Motoko.]

No one was using GNU/Linux on the PS3 anyway

Alright I'm assuming this but really, I honestly don't think anyone kept their install.

[Ironman273]

Sony, the main company behind Blu-Ray will remove Blu-Ray playback from the best selling Blu-Ray player? C'MON (Kevin Butler voice :laugh: )

Just to play devil's advocate.... Sony removed BC so they could push PS3 software sales, that's a fact. What if the consumer electronics division pressures them to remove or cripple Blu-Ray playback to push their blu-ray player sales? The margin on PS3s is pretty low (and just now in the black) so maybe a bean-counter will make the decision that they make more money off a $150 blu-ray player than the $299 PS3.

[AbandonedTrolley]

Just to play devil's advocate.... Sony removed BC so they could push PS3 software sales, that's a fact. What if the consumer electronics division pressures them to remove or cripple Blu-Ray playback to push their blu-ray player sales? The margin on PS3s is pretty low (and just now in the black) so maybe a bean-counter will make the decision that they make more money off a $150 blu-ray player than the $299 PS3.

Whilst they 'could' remove it, it would be removing probably the single most MEDIA advantage the PS3 has over the 360 right now. Doing so would certainly make people looking at the pro and cons of both machines wonder where the higher price tag is coming from.

[Ironman273]

Whilst they 'could' remove it, it would be removing probably the single most MEDIA advantage the PS3 has over the 360 right now. Doing so would certainly make people looking at the pro and cons of both machines wonder where the higher price tag is coming from.

The Playstation brand still has a lot of recognition. It's not like they haven't made dumb decisions in the past. They might wonder that with a pricepoint at $299 they might be offering too much and that they want to return to the core gameplay functions. Likely? I'm not sure, but you have to agree that given the track record it's a possibility.

The fact is, if you but a blu-ray player you know it will be a blu-ray player until it dies. With the PS3 there is the possibility that they may remove features that you considered when you purchased the PS3.

[Hedon]

I hope they are not putting all their eggs in the Blu-Ray basket either. Optical media is a dying breed. I suspect DVD and Blu-Ray disks are on their way out in favor of some form of digital cards and digital downloads.

[Solid Knight]

The Playstation brand still has a lot of recognition. It's not like they haven't made dumb decisions in the past. They might wonder that with a pricepoint at $299 they might be offering too much and that they want to return to the core gameplay functions. Likely? I'm not sure, but you have to agree that given the track record it's a possibility.

It sure could happen just like laptop manufacturers could start selling laptops without screens attached. They might look at their price points and see that they're offering too much value for the dollar and start removing things like built-in keyboards and mice, displays, wireless, et cetera.

[Southern Patriot]

With the PS3 there is the possibility that they may remove features that you considered when you purchased the PS3.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make with my examples, yet people like Audioboxer continue to ignore (and actually argue against) the possibility. Sony has already shown that they have no remorse about removing features when they even think that the feature might be a threat to their business. They have also shown that they aren't above Mafia-style (or maybe that should be Yakuza-style) "offer you can't refuse" tatics by making people choose between keeping OtherOS or continued access to future games and PSN (including videos and other content already purchased from the Playstation Store).

[SL_]

The issue here is far greater than what specific features they've removed.

Not adding features - while a stupid move, is up to them. It's their console, so they can just not add anything if they like.

Retrospectively REMOVING features is absolutely despicable. What a really shoddy company Sony is. What if some people bought the device on the basis of features later removed? I've lost a lot of respect for Sony and the PS3 for their absolute disregard and disrespect for their customers.

[Ironman273]

It sure could happen just like laptop manufacturers could start selling laptops without screens attached. They might look at their price points and see that they're offering too much value for the dollar and start removing things like built-in keyboards and mice, displays, wireless, et cetera.

You know, in the interest of not devolving into what happened in this thread before, I'll make believe you are being completely serious and not purposefully dense. The point is the PS3 is a video game console. Neither the 360 or Wii offer blu-ray playback but they all play games. The PS3 could keep doing what it was made to do without offering blu-ray playback. To use your example, it's more like a laptop manufacturer switching from 17" screens to 14" screens. They may be cheaper and maybe they feel most other laptops offer 14" screens so there's no need to offer that much. Plus, it may push the sale of their purposeful gaming laptop with the 17" screen. I would think it's more like a laptop manufacturer selling a laptop with a full version of MS Office. Maybe they'll feel like they should offer just the trial version. It would be cheaper for them and most other laptop don't sell their machine with a full version of Office.

[Southern Patriot]

It sure could happen just like laptop manufacturers could start selling laptops without screens attached.

EEE Keyboard PC

[Solid Knight]

You know, in the interest of not devolving into what happened in this thread before, I'll make believe you are being completely serious and not purposefully dense. The point is the PS3 is a video game console. Neither the 360 or Wii offer blu-ray playback but they all play games. The PS3 could keep doing what it was made to do without offering blu-ray playback. To use your example, it's more like a laptop manufacturer switching from 17" screens to 14" screens. They may be cheaper and maybe they feel most other laptops offer 14" screens so there's no need to offer that much. Plus, it may push the sale of their purposeful gaming laptop with the 17" screen. I would think it's more like a laptop manufacturer selling a laptop with a full version of MS Office. Maybe they'll feel like they should offer just the trial version. It would be cheaper for them and most other laptop don't sell their machine with a full version of Office.

No, it's not like that at all. You're talking about removing a feature that doesn't cost them any money and doesn't pose a security risk and greatly increases the value of their console to drive sales. There is no incentive to remove blu-ray playback. Besides, do you have any idea how moronic it would be to remove a feature simply because your competition lacks that feature? Yeah, because businesses are always trying handicap themselves to level the playing field.

EEE Keyboard PC

Which is not a laptop and is a new niche product of its own.

[1337ish]

It sure could happen just like laptop manufacturers could start selling laptops without screens attached. They might look at their price points and see that they're offering too much value for the dollar and start removing things like built-in keyboards and mice, displays, wireless, et cetera.

Thats not the same thing..... that laptop would have been advertised without said monitor. A proper analogy would be you were sold a laptop with a screen and they decided to disable it after the event or reduce its functionality (and in the case of BC to encourage you to buy a newer monitor)

[Ironman273]

No, it's not like that at all. You're talking about removing a feature that doesn't cost them any money and doesn't pose a security risk and greatly increases the value of their console to drive sales. There is no incentive to remove blu-ray playback. Besides, do you have any idea how moronic it would be to remove a feature simply because your competition lacks that feature? Yeah, because businesses are always trying handicap themselves to level the playing field.

You're only focusing on part of what I said. Like I said before, what if the consumer electronics division convinces them to remove it so they can push more blu-ray players? Maybe they make more money off the stand alone players. There's an incentive right there.

Besides, I'm not saying I have all the answers right here and now, I'm just saying there's a possibility and throwing out some hypotheses.

[Solid Knight]

You're only focusing on part of what I said. Like I said before, what if the consumer electronics division convinces them to remove it so they can push more blu-ray players? Maybe they make more money off the stand alone players. There's an incentive right there.

I know it is possible. It's also possible that Sony could just stop making PS3s. It's also possible to put whalers on the moon. Something merely being possible doesn't mean it will happen much less being likely to happen.

[Southern Patriot]

Which is not a laptop and is a new niche product of its own.

Well, it's a fine line there. The situation you described (companies selling a laptop without a screen) would give you exactly that, a keyboard computer with all the standard ports, but no built-in primary display. I was just pointing out that the situation isn't as far fetched as you implied.

[Ironman273]

I know it is possible. It's also possible that Sony could just stop making PS3s. It's also possible to put whalers on the moon. Something merely being possible doesn't mean it will happen much less being likely to happen.

There are different shades of possible. It's possible I'll have chicken for lunch. It's also possible I'll have ostrich. I can give you reasons why I think it's more possible I will have chicken than ostrich. If you feel there is little to no chance, on the same scale as putting whalers on the moon (regardless of how boring the attraction would be), then I have to disagree. Based on Sony's past history of things they've said vs. things they've done I believe it's a viable future possibility. Taking an argument to ridiculous levels doesn't lessen the original argument.

[rajputwarrior]

You're only focusing on part of what I said. Like I said before, what if the consumer electronics division convinces them to remove it so they can push more blu-ray players? Maybe they make more money off the stand alone players. There's an incentive right there.

Besides, I'm not saying I have all the answers right here and now, I'm just saying there's a possibility and throwing out some hypotheses.

that's the thing, these examples of sony removing features like this means they can really do it on any part of the console when they feel it is necessary. obviously some of the examples and analogy going around here are a little far fetched but if those multiple law suits don't pull through about what sony is doing work out for the consumer, other company's can use these cases as an example and do the same thing with their products.

edit: happy bday roadwarrior (Y)

[rajputwarrior]

Air Force may suffer collateral damage from PS3 firmware update

By Nate Anderson | Last updated about 6 hours ago

When Sony issued a recent PlayStation 3 update removing the device's ability to install alternate operating systems like Linux, it did so to protect copyrighted content?but several research projects suffered collateral damage.

The Air Force is one example. The Air Force Research Laboratory in Rome, New York picked up 336 PS3 systems in 2009 and built itself a 53 teraFLOP processing cluster. Once completed as a proof of concept, Air Force researchers then scaled up by a factor of six and went in search of 2,200 more consoles (later scaled back to 1,700). The $663,000 contract was awarded on January 6, 2010, to a small company called Fixstars that could provide 1,700 160GB PS3 systems to the government.

Getting that many units was difficult enough that the government required bidders to get a letter from Sony certifying that the units were actually available.

Dirt cheap computing

Another grotesque waste of taxpayer dollars? Exactly the opposite, according to research lab staff. Off-the-shelf PS3s could take advantage of Sony's hardware subsidy to get powerful Cell processors more cheaply than via any other solution.

"The Advanced Computing Architectures team at the Information Directorate considered several alternatives to arrive at the configuration of the proposed system, including the Sony BCU-100, IBM Blade Q22, and IBM PowerXCell 8i CAB accelerators cards," said the Air Force last year. "In particular, the performance capabilities of the Cell Broadband engine were examined in considerable detail on each of the algorithms."

The team also looked into using dual-quad-core Xeon servers for its cluster, going so far as to do a "detailed study of Xeon multithreading and SSE4 optimization on image processing intensive tasks." The hardware worked well, and it eventually came to serve as subcluster headnodes that sit between the PS3 cluster itself and the control terminals.

But building the entire cluster out of Xeons would cost "more than an order of magnitude greater than the PS3 technology." The team also looked into advanced GPGPUs but found that they worked best to "accelerate a subset of our algorithms, particularly the frontend processing and backend visualization, but lag the PS3 in the bulk of the calculations where processes need to intercommunicate and share memory beyond what is supported efficiently by the GPGPUs."

The initial test cluster (source: US Air Force)

The result was the 500 TeraFLOPS Heterogeneous Cluster powered by PS3s but connected to subcluster heads of dual-quad Xeons with multiple GPGPUs.

The Air Force team ordered the hardware, spent days unboxing it and imaging each unit to run Linux, and then... Sony removed the Linux install option a couple months later. (One can only imagine what happened to those 2,000 PS3 controllers and other unneeded accessories.)

Does it matter?

Sony's decision had no immediate impact on the cluster; for obvious reasons, the PS3s are not hooked into the PlayStation Network and don't need Sony's firmware updates. But what happens when a PS3 dies or needs repair? Tough luck.

We checked in with the Air Force Research Laboratory, which noted its disappointment with the Sony decision. "We will have to continue to use the systems we already have in hand," the lab told Ars, but "this will make it difficult to replace systems that break or fail. The refurbished PS3s also have the problem that when they come back from Sony, they have the firmware (gameOS) and it will not allow Other OS, which seems wrong. We are aware of class-action lawsuits against Sony for taking away this option on systems that use to have it."

A similar issue will confront academic PS3 clusters, which have sprung up in labs across the country. In 2007, a North Carolina State professor built himself a small cluster that he cobbled together after "he spent a few hours one day in early January driving from store to store to purchase the eight machines."

The University of Massachusetts has 16 machines networked into a cluster called the "Gravity Grid," used to look at gravitational waves and black holes. According to the physicists at UMass, the PS3's "incredibly low cost make it very attractive as a scientific computing node, i.e., part of a compute cluster. In fact, it's highly plausible that the raw computing power-per-dollar that the PS3 offers is significantly higher than anything else on the market today."

All such projects will last as long as the machines survive or used machines are still available, but new hardware can't be added and refurbished machines can't be used. A class-action lawsuit has recently targeted Sony for removing a promised feature retroactively, though the issue is unlikely to be decided anytime soon.

We asked Sony for comment on how its decision would affect scientific computing clusters, but received no answer before publication.

A love affair with off-the-shelf consumer hardware

Such are the dangers of relying on consumer-grade hardware sold with a very different set of concerns from those that bedevil the scientists, especially in an era where firmware updates routinely alter functionality. But the Air Force, for one, has no plans to stop.

"The gaming and graphics market continues to push the state of the art and lowers the cost of High Performance Computing, FLOPS/WATTS per dollar," the Air Force Research Laboratory told Ars. "This is important for embedded HPC, our area of expertise.

"The HPC environment is rapidly changing; leveraging technology that is subsidized by large consumer markets will always have large cost advantages. This gives us the experience (lesson learned) to develop HPC with low-cost hardware, benefitting the tax payer, Air Force, Air Force Research Lab while utilizing limited DoD budgets."

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2010/05/how-removing-ps3-linux-hurts-the-air-force.ars?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss

[Hedon]