Is Time Disappearing from the Universe?

[petrossa]

Remember a little thing called the space-time continuum? Well what if the time part of the equation was literally running out? New evidence is suggesting that time is slowly disappearing from our universe, and will one day vanish completely. This radical theory may explain a cosmological mystery that has baffled scientists for years.

Scientists previously have measured the light from distant exploding stars to show that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. They assumed that these supernovae are spreading apart faster as the universe ages. Physicists also assumed that a kind of anti-gravitational force must be driving the galaxies apart, and started to call this unidentified force "dark energy".

The idea that time itself could cease to be in billions of years - and everything will grind to a halt - has been proposed by Professor Jos? Senovilla, Marc Mars and Ra?l Vera of the University of the Basque Country, Bilbao, and University of Salamanca, Spain. The corollary to this radical end to time itself is an alternative explanation for "dark energy" - the mysterious antigravitational force that has been suggested to explain a cosmic phenomenon that has baffled scientists.

However, to this day no one actually knows what dark energy is, or where it comes from. Professor Senovilla, and colleagues have proposed a mind-bending alternative. They propose that there is no such thing as dark energy at all, and we?re looking at things backwards. Senovilla proposes that we have been fooled into thinking the expansion of the universe is accelerating, when in reality, time itself is slowing down. At an everyday level, the change would not be perceptible. However, it would be obvious from cosmic scale measurements tracking the course of the universe over billions of years. The change would be infinitesimally slow from a human perspective, but in terms of the vast perspective of cosmology, the study of ancient light from suns that shone billions of years ago, it could easily be measured

The team's proposal, published in the journal Physical Review D, dismisses dark energy as fiction. Instead, Senovilla says, the appearance of acceleration is caused by time itself gradually slowing down, like a clock with a run-down battery.

?We do not say that the expansion of the universe itself is an illusion," he explains. "What we say it may be an illusion is the acceleration of this expansion - that is, the possibility that the expansion is, and has been, increasing its rate."

If time gradually slows "but we naively kept using our equations to derive the changes of the expansion with respect of 'a standard flow of time', then the simple models that we have constructed in our paper show that an "effective accelerated rate of the expansion" takes place."

Currently, astronomers are able to discern the expansion speed of the universe using the so-called "red shift" technique. This technique relies on the understanding that stars moving away appear redder in color than ones moving towards us. Scientists look for supernovae of certain types that provide a sort of benchmark. However, the accuracy of these measurements depends on time remaining invariable throughout the universe. If time is slowing down, according to this new theory, our solitary time dimension is slowly turning into a new space dimension. Therefore the far-distant, ancient stars seen by cosmologists would from our perspective, look as though they were accelerating.

"Our calculations show that we would think that the expansion of the universe is accelerating," says Prof Senovilla. The theory bases it?s idea on one particular variant of superstring theory, in which our universe is confined to the surface of a membrane, or brane, floating in a higher-dimensional space, known as the "bulk". In billions of years, time would cease to be time altogether.

"Then everything will be frozen, like a snapshot of one instant, forever," Senovilla told New Scientist magazine. "Our planet will be long gone by then."

Though radical and in many way unprecedented, these ideas are not without support. Gary Gibbons, a cosmologist at Cambridge University, say the concept has merit. "We believe that time emerged during the Big Bang, and if time can emerge, it can also disappear - that's just the reverse effect."

Source

[TrueMonolith]

The article somewhat mis-characterizes the concept of time itself.

Time is relative to motion....so, in essence, if things stop moving, you don't have time anymore. The extrapolation the article attempts to make is that if there are no stars...there is no time. This would be an interesting idea, since it would mean the area's in between galaxies would be absent from the space time continuum raising the question if inter-galactic travel was even possible.

Since relativity is a quantum concept, i dont think its the professors making this assertion (since the idea of time bubble is a well known idea that Hawkings brought up a long time ago), but the author of this article has truncated and extrapolated a conclusion that quite frankly doesnt make sense, since the notion of time is tied to the definition of matter in motion (that is to say, when things move in space we have the notion of time).

[theclueless]

if the expansion of universe equals to the speed of light, everything will appear standstill when you are observing a distance star at a fixed frame

[Green_Eye]

I would not be so quick to dismiss dark energy as "fiction" and then put this up as a viable alternative explanation. As others have mentioned time itself is linked to motion and this goes no way to explaining that nor does it go towards explaining the vast amount of void space or even the concept of black holes. While I do admit that it is something new I do not think this can be taken too seriously until there are much better explanations to be given.

[vincent]

The article somewhat mis-characterizes the concept of time itself.

Time is relative to motion....so, in essence, if things stop moving, you don't have time anymore. The extrapolation the article attempts to make is that if there are no stars...there is no time. This would be an interesting idea, since it would mean the area's in between galaxies would be absent from the space time continuum raising the question if inter-galactic travel was even possible.

Since relativity is a quantum concept, i dont think its the professors making this assertion (since the idea of time bubble is a well known idea that Hawkings brought up a long time ago), but the author of this article has truncated and extrapolated a conclusion that quite frankly doesnt make sense, since the notion of time is tied to the definition of matter in motion (that is to say, when things move in space we have the notion of time).

Relativity isn't a quantum concept. It deals with physics on a large scale. (snipped)

[TrueMonolith]

Relativity isn't a quantum concept. It deals with physics on a large scale.(snipped).

Uhhh...thanks for pointing that out, i was trying to get at the point that time is discrete and related to motion.

[petrossa]

I would not be so quick to dismiss dark energy as "fiction" and then put this up as a viable alternative explanation. As others have mentioned time itself is linked to motion and this goes no way to explaining that nor does it go towards explaining the vast amount of void space or even the concept of black holes. While I do admit that it is something new I do not think this can be taken too seriously until there are much better explanations to be given.

Dark energy is hardly an explanation i'd say. As argument go dark energy and time slowing down are on about even keel for being credible. But since i never liked the 'deus ex machina' concept much in books and movieplots, i'm slightly more ready to take the 'time slowing' down over dark energy.

In our present concept of how things work lightspeed in vacuum is a constant. And all the intricate interactions of supporting proof/theory nicely fit together making a elegant theory of space time.

So as whole is satisfies our minute grasp of the total picture. But the problem is, if you are part of an event that influences you and the way you measure it there's no way to measure it.

We've nicely boxed in the universe and how it works in a mathematical model, and lo and behold....everything we can come with it supports it. Except.... That pesky seemingly ever faster expanding universe.

On all levels this is counterintuitive. It doesn't confirm to neither the classic laws of physics nor the modern ones. It conflicts with the law of conservation of energy. On the whole if space is indeed expanding at an ever faster rate it does so outside of our framework of reference. Till proven true 'dark energy' is nothing more than a fanciful mathematical kludge to explain the unexplainable. Just because it makes the sums sum up, doesn't necessarily mean it's correct.

So i find the idea of time slowing down much more elegant, logical and more in tune with our understanding of the universe.

Big bang, laws of nature are created, they cause an explosion throwing energy in all kinds of forms about. This assumes a limited initial energy, since according to our laws of psychics infinite matter/energy can't exist.

So if it's limited at one point or another something has to stop after which it's so spread out there to little of it to cause anything to happen.

So why not time? It's more logical then dark energy which implies a perpetual motion. In order for space to expand at an ever increasing rate whilst at the same time keeping the masses caught in it intact it needs some kind of energy source.

Time slowing down doesn't need energy, it follows the intuitive notion that at some point the initial limited energy has been transferred in to other forms making for a diffuse incoherent energystate, in effect ceasing the exist as such.

[TrueMonolith]

Dark energy is hardly an explanation i'd say. As argument go dark energy and time slowing down are on about even keel for being credible. But since i never liked the 'deus ex machina' concept much in books and movieplots, i'm slightly more ready to take the 'time slowing' down over dark energy.

Time dilation has notion to do with "dark energy".

Time dilation does occur.

Wow Petrossa, i never figured you to be so far behind on the curve that you were still a Newtonian Physicist.

In our present concept of how things work lightspeed in vacuum is a constant. And all the intricate interactions of supporting proof/theory nicely fit together making a elegant theory of space time.

So as whole is satisfies our minute grasp of the total picture. But the problem is, if you are part of an event that influences you and the way you measure it there's no way to measure it.

We've nicely boxed in the universe and how it works in a mathematical model, and lo and behold....everything we can come with it supports it. Except.... That pesky seemingly ever faster expanding universe.

On all levels this is counterintuitive. It doesn't confirm to neither the classic laws of physics nor the modern ones. It conflicts with the law of conservation of energy. On the whole if space is indeed expanding at an ever faster rate it does so outside of our framework of reference. Till proven true 'dark energy' is nothing more than a fanciful mathematical kludge to explain the unexplainable. Just because it makes the sums sum up, doesn't necessarily mean it's correct.

So i find the idea of time slowing down much more elegant, logical and more in tune with our understanding of the universe.

Big bang, laws of nature are created, they cause an explosion throwing energy in all kinds of forms about. This assumes a limited initial energy, since according to our laws of psychics infinite matter/energy can't exist.

So if it's limited at one point or another something has to stop after which it's so spread out there to little of it to cause anything to happen.

So why not time? It's more logical then dark energy which implies a perpetual motion. In order for space to expand at an ever increasing rate whilst at the same time keeping the masses caught in it intact it needs some kind of energy source.

Time slowing down doesn't need energy, it follows the intuitive notion that at some point the initial limited energy has been transferred in to other forms making for a diffuse incoherent energystate, in effect ceasing the exist as such.

Gobbledegook mixed with a complete lack of understanding of various physical properties.

And i am definately sure you dont know what dark energy or dark matter is.

[zerrar]

I was reading an article lately, how a supercomputer was able to model the progression of the universe and how it look at its ending state (endless stillness of time).

This assumes a limited initial energy, since according to our laws of psychics infinite matter/energy can't exist.

Well the energy that is absorbed by black holes where does it go? However, I believe there are more dimensions of time that we can currently understand. If I am not mistaken, time does not only move forward but it can stop close to a black hole.

[primexx]

I was reading an article lately, how a supercomputer was able to model the progression of the universe and how it look at its ending state (endless stillness of time).

Well the energy that is absorbed by black holes where does it go? However, I believe there are more dimensions of time that we can currently understand. If I am not mistaken, time does not only move forward but it can stop close to a black hole.

hawking radiation?

[zerrar]

Thanks primexx didn't know about that :D

[argonite]

"time itself could cease to be in billions of years"

I'm having trouble comprehending this phrase...

Edit: probably because of there being a definite time in which the concept of time no longer exists

[petrossa]

"time itself could cease to be in billions of years"

I'm having trouble comprehending this phrase...

Edit: probably because of there being a definite time in which the concept of time no longer exists

No matter how you turn it, if the psychical laws hold true and the mathematical model of the universe is correct and time exists, time is a flow. A flow that has to be powered in one way or another. Since by the same mathematical model the universe started out with finite energy and the universe expands it has to disperse into such a fine grained units that it ceases to exist as such.?

I liken it to homeopathic medicine. You put a molecule in water and then dilute it to the point there isn't any traceable amount of it left.

If space indeed expands at an increasing rate it must reach a point where the energy is distributed over such a vast area it in fact is no longer there. And time stands still.

Dark energy seems to my the most unlikely way possible. The universe in fact then turns into a perpetual motion machine. Energy disappearing down black holes most likely ends up back in the same universe, so they don't do much except speeding up the dispersal of energy.

[TrueMonolith]

No matter how you turn it, if the psychical laws hold true and the mathematical model of the universe is correct and time exists, time is a flow. A flow that has to be powered in one way or another. Since by the same mathematical model the universe started out with finite energy and the universe expands it has to disperse into such a fine grained units that it ceases to exist as such.

Time isnt a flow....its a relative function to the movement of matter.

Your entire problem stems from this critical point...you just dont understand what time is.

I liken it to homeopathic medicine. You put a molecule in water and then dilute it to the point there isn't any traceable amount of it left.

What you're describing is entropy....and homeopathy is bull****.

If space indeed expands at an increasing rate it must reach a point where the energy is distributed over such a vast area it in fact is no longer there. And time stands still.

Time bubbles maybe?

If what you're saying is even remotely true, we shouldnt be able to see light from far away galaxies since the light has crossed entire void zones between galaxies that put out no energy.

Dark energy seems to my the most unlikely way possible. The universe in fact then turns into a perpetual motion machine. Energy disappearing down black holes most likely ends up back in the same universe, so they don't do much except speeding up the dispersal of energy.

You're talking from ignorance here. Just because you dont understand a concept, doesn't mean it is unlikely. Infact, the LHC was specifically built to determine the existance of dark matter.

[NotSoBad]

Time is certainly slowing down, normally between 8.30am to 6pm when I'm at work. :whistle:

[petrossa]

Time is certainly slowing down, normally between 8.30am to 6pm when I'm at work.?? :whistle:

(Y)?Pity it speeds up when you're having fun.

[NotSoBad]

The boffins are all coming up with these new theories to try make what they are observing fit with the existing theory.

Have they actually considered that the existing theory we all believe is true, err isn't...

[petrossa]

The boffins are all coming up with these new theories to try make what they are observing fit with the existing theory.

Have they actually considered that the existing theory we all believe is true, err isn't...

No. That's sacrilege because Einstein is god reincarnate. A bonafied genius can't be wrong......although he firmly disagreed with the theory of quantum mechanics.

I see these theories as the old metal discs used in mechanical playthingies:

There is this vast random mess of stuff floating about out there, and it just depends on which disc you play, that's how the universe is. For each view of the universe there's another disc. They all have equal value,since they only show what the disc let's through.

As such they all are correct as well, as long as you don't mix up your discs.

I write in alcohol based marker on the CD, still i manage to put the wrong disc in the box. :laugh:

[Hum]

Time is actually an illusion -- there is really, only, One Big NOW ;)

[Andre S. Veteran]

I don't get what "time slowing down" might mean. Say time is slowed to 50% of its current speed tomorrow. Does that mean the day will appear longer to us?

[shockz]

I don't get what "time slowing down" might mean. Say time is slowed to 50% of its current speed tomorrow. Does that mean the day will appear longer to us?

I've wondered that too, considering we aren't outside of time, I don't think we'd notice anyways. :pinch:

[petrossa]

You'd notice don't worry. If time indeed slows down, so do all the processes. Imagine ?a 50% cut in time, fuel will combust like on a highspeed camera replay. However since the scale of the slowing down rate, you have nothing to worry about. The human race, or indeed any kind of life form, will be extinct long before it gets 'noticeable'

Every cloud has it's silver lining.

[vincent]

You'd notice don't worry. If time indeed slows down, so do all the processes. Imagine a 50% cut in time, fuel will combust like on a highspeed camera replay. However since the scale of the slowing down rate, you have nothing to worry about. The human race, or indeed any kind of life form, will be extinct long before it gets 'noticeable'

Every cloud has it's silver lining.

You've really no idea what you're talking about. Study up on Special Relativity then come back, i'd post a nice rebuttal but not much time i'll try to get to it this weekend.

[zeta_immersion]

you would not notice it, actually you would not even know that time has been slowed down since you have no reference at all

interesting idea if it works though i high;y doubt there are people willing to support this theory without hard fact ... at best LHC will not find dark matter but might find something else, remains to be seen

[Andre S. Veteran]

My (uninformed) idea is that we would not notice. Imagine if all 3 spatial dimensions were scaled down tomorrow. You couldn't possibly notice because there would be no reference. Even photos of yesterday would be scaled as well. The same would go for time I suppose. But what would happen when it stops altogether? Surely we would "notice"? (or we couldn't because there would be no time to notice :wacko: )