Adding fuel to the "Are private servers illegal" fire:


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Read the damn EULAs/contracts/whatever before buying a product. Most of the times, you are only buying a license to use the product for some time. So, stop bitching about it. :)

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$88 million... seriously :/

Do any US courts ever think before they hand out these ridiculously large penalties? How in the hell will this person ever pay a fine that large off.

You have to understand.. It's only 88 Million because they admitted to the crime and knew it was against the law.

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You have to understand.. It's only 88 Million because they admitted to the crime and knew it was against the law.

Actually, the defense didn't show up. It was a default judgement and never made it to trial.

FINAL JUDGMENT by Judge Stephen V. Wilson,Pursuant to the Courts July 22, 2010 and August 10, 2010 Orders Granting Plaintiffs Motion for Default Judgment, it is hereby ORDERED, ADJUDGED, AND DECREED that Plaintiff Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. shall recover $88,594,539.00, and post-judgment interest thereon at the rate provided by law until paid in full, from Defendant Alyson Reeves, d/b/aScapegaming. 24 . ( MD JS-6. Case Terminated ) (pj) (Entered: 08/11/2010)

Scapegaming will most likely declare bankruptcy and that will be the end of it.

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File bankruptcy... The court doesn't care, it is their responsibility to award the plaintiff what they determine they are due (Though this sounds kind of high to me as well), not what the defendant can afford. I would say that in most cases this forces the defendant into bankruptcy though...

They aren't even due that much though. Scape would have to have been up and running and absorbing 'donation'(as all p.servers call it) money from the players for longer than wow has even existed for blizz to be "due" that much money.

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Even when you do buy the game, who here has ever read ANY EULA?

Sheesh I don't know about you, but I just scroll to the bottom when that screen pops up, and hit accept.

Im sure you all do too, while it's legally binding once you hit accept, i'm sure you can get off by saying you didn't actually read it, hence invaliding their claims since it was never read in the first place.

eg:

"you admit you ran a private server?"

"yes"

"but it says explicidly that its against the rules of the EULA when you clicked agree'

"but I never read it. No one in this courtroom would ever take 20 mins or so to read a EULA before installing software, that is a proven fact"

"your right... case dismissed"

:)

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Huh, I use to play on Scapegaming....found some awesome money bugs, one allowed you to buy an item, then sell it back to the merchant for more than you bought it. The other allowed you to buy an item for free, then when you sold it, it took money. You could do this with 0 gold, and because it allowed you to sell it without having any money, but it took money in the process, it would roll you from 0, to the highest value of gold instantly.

Anyway, from this court case, you can say running private servers is "illegal", but what about simply playing on them? Sure it may be just as against Blizzards EULA, but would Blizzard really care about a single indivitual in that case?

Also, I think Blizzard should thank private servers, if it wasn't for them, many people would not be interested in WoW at all. Private servers allow people to remain interested while introducing people to WoW in general, leading to potentially more sales when people get fed up with the private server bugs, or other people see the person playing on a private server (they see the person playing WoW, get interested in it, look it up and find the official servers).

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EULA's are not US Law, nor is anything therin implied... They are explicit, and they are a binding contract that you are agreeing to no matter where you are. I can understand your argument being applied to something like a patent, but in this case it just doesn't work...

but blizzard are prosecuting under US copyright law. US copyright law is not valid in the EU. because the EU are not part of the US.

But yes I agree, EULA's are not law (dont have much of a legal standing).

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Also, I think Blizzard should thank private servers, if it wasn't for them, many people would not be interested in WoW at all.

Thank them for what? Stolen profits? :laugh:

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Thank them for what? Stolen profits? :laugh:

99.9% of the people on private servers wouldn't pay for retail, otherwise they would be playing retail instead of playing on the private servers, so you cannot call it stolen profits.

Beyond that, people playing private servers = more people playing WoW = more word of mouth about WoW and higher chances of someone seeing a person playing and getting interested in it.

Blizzard should thank them for broadening the penetration of WoW as a whole, increasing chances for people who never knew about WoW to find out about it and play it on the official servers.

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Even when you do buy the game, who here has ever read ANY EULA?

Sheesh I don't know about you, but I just scroll to the bottom when that screen pops up, and hit accept.

Im sure you all do too, while it's legally binding once you hit accept, i'm sure you can get off by saying you didn't actually read it, hence invaliding their claims since it was never read in the first place.

eg:

"you admit you ran a private server?"

"yes"

"but it says explicidly that its against the rules of the EULA when you clicked agree'

"but I never read it. No one in this courtroom would ever take 20 mins or so to read a EULA before installing software, that is a proven fact"

"your right... case dismissed"

:)

yeah because the world works that way

hey you didn't pay the rent!

oh...should i?

of course, it's in the contract

sorry i didn't read it

ah well ok, you can keep on living here for free in that case

:rolleyes:

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yeah because the world works that way

hey you didn't pay the rent!

oh...should i?

of course, it's in the contract

sorry i didn't read it

ah well ok, you can keep on living here for free in that case

:rolleyes:

That's the problem video game market doesn't work like the rest of the world.

Video games once opened can't be refunded (unlike about everything else in the world).

The only way to read EULA is to open the package and then you can't get a refund if you do not agree with the EULA. So basically you have no choice but to agree with the EULA.

When you rent something you read the contract, you sign it THEN ONLY AFTER you pay for it. With video games you pay THEN you read the contract and sign it and if you don't want to sign it you can't get a refund.

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Beyond that, people playing private servers = more people playing WoW = more word of mouth about WoW and higher chances of someone seeing a person playing and getting interested in it.

Blizzard should thank them for broadening the penetration of WoW as a whole, increasing chances for people who never knew about WoW to find out about it and play it on the official servers.

I think you are hugely overestimating pirate servers word of mouth and actual percentage of players using them. And WoW also became immensely popular long before there even was any pirate servers. Blizzard is just protecting itself and not letting it get out of hand. By suing and closing pirate servers, they make sure it wont ever become a factor (which it isn't even close to now).

Also, most of those servers are quite poor, so people playing on them could get a negative impression if they hadn't heard about WoW before (is that even possible?).

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IMO, if the game has free online play, then unofficial servers should not be illegal. But if its something like world of warcraft, then by all means clamp down on "free" servers.

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EULA's are not US Law, nor is anything therin implied... They are explicit, and they are a binding contract that you are agreeing to no matter where you are. I can understand your argument being applied to something like a patent, but in this case it just doesn't work...

A legally binding contract in the US isn't the same as it is everywhere else in the world - different countries have different legal definitions as to what counts as a contract, who can enter contracts, what counts as accepting a contract etc.

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That's the problem video game market doesn't work like the rest of the world.

Video games once opened can't be refunded (unlike about everything else in the world).

The only way to read EULA is to open the package and then you can't get a refund if you do not agree with the EULA. So basically you have no choice but to agree with the EULA.

When you rent something you read the contract, you sign it THEN ONLY AFTER you pay for it. With video games you pay THEN you read the contract and sign it and if you don't want to sign it you can't get a refund.

maybe not in the us, in the eu everything you buy has to be refunded within 7 days.

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maybe not in the us, in the eu everything you buy has to be refunded within 7 days.

I live in Canada and here too everything has to be refunded within 7 days. But in Canada there's an exception to the law for video games and music. Once the package has been opened you can't get a refund. Personally i think it's stupid to let video game companies define their own EULA. EULA should be defined by authorities and should be the same for all video games and software.

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I guess thats the only way they can actually sue since EULA's dont actually have any legal standing.

That's patently false - I've posted numerous examples both here and in the MVC forums that are explicitly to opposite of your claims.

This specific ruling is based on the EULA which gains it's power from copyright law.

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That's the problem video game market doesn't work like the rest of the world.

Video games once opened can't be refunded (unlike about everything else in the world).

The only way to read EULA is to open the package and then you can't get a refund if you do not agree with the EULA. So basically you have no choice but to agree with the EULA.

When you rent something you read the contract, you sign it THEN ONLY AFTER you pay for it. With video games you pay THEN you read the contract and sign it and if you don't want to sign it you can't get a refund.

That is actually a very good point for software in general. 99% of the time, if you go buy software from the store, you CANNOT view the EULA without either searching for it online, or opening the package. Consequently, opening the package means you can no longer return it to the store you bought it from (in the US at least), you would have to turn to Blizzard for a refund if you reject the EULA, which would still be very difficult to get and probably not worth the time.

I think you are hugely overestimating pirate servers word of mouth and actual percentage of players using them. And WoW also became immensely popular long before there even was any pirate servers. Blizzard is just protecting itself and not letting it get out of hand. By suing and closing pirate servers, they make sure it wont ever become a factor (which it isn't even close to now).

I never said private servers were a large percentage of WoW players or anything of the sort. But fact is, private servers give players a better chance to try out the game than the 10-day trial on retail does. Things not working properly (and people still having fun with that) or just more people in general experience WoW means there will be more talk about it. Not to mention, some people may decide to play retail if they have fun on a private server with some aspects of the game broken.

Honestly, it costs Blizzard more money to go after and close down a private WoW server than it does for them to just ignore it. So if anything, they are losing money by closing down private servers just simply due to the costs they expend to do so.

Also, most of those servers are quite poor, so people playing on them could get a negative impression if they hadn't heard about WoW before (is that even possible?).

Things may have changed, but when I quit playing WoW, private servers had probably around 80% of the things working almost exactly like retail. I wouldn't personally classify that as "quite poor". If you want "quite poor" you need to look at private servers when they first came around years ago. Back then, most servers had bugged melee combat and tons of other things, it was virtually impossible to play a melee class because 90% of the time it said the target was too far away even while standing right infront of it, and many, many other bugs. By the time I left WoW private servers, 95% of skills were working correctly, instances were only half working (most mobs didn't use spells and bosses were not scripted, so they just used really powerful spells to make up for it), and probably 90% of most other things were working properly.

Theres 2 types of people who play on private servers:

1) People who would never pay to play on retail.

2) People who decided WoW was not worth the money they were spending and were ready to quit WoW anyway.

If all the private servers were shut down, Blizzard would not make ANY more money than they currently are, so why are they worried about spending even more money to shut down these servers?

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Personally I don't care if some kid sets up a private server, they generally suck and aren't a threat to Blizzard. These jerks were making money off of Blizzard's product though, so by all means burn them.

This... There's a difference between a private server and a private server using Blizzard's property to make money.

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Someone likes to underline.

Well maybe if people would actually read, he wouldn't feel the need to emphasize certain points like that.

I like the EFF and what they do to protect us, but the whole tone of that piece is annoying. Buying physical media, or even paying a monthly sub fee should in no way allow us to do whatever we want with World of Warcraft, or any other form of entertainment. Buying a (music) CD, (movie) DVD, or a game is not the same as buying a physical item like a couch, or a pair of jeans. That is your couch, those are your jeans. You can give them away, modify them with sewn-on patches or dye and just have a grand ol' time. Buying physical media is not the same as buying the content on that media, which has been ruled on over and over and over again in courts for various lawsuits. Just like those guys in Florida who were doing their Apple boxes, it was only a matter of time before they got caught, and they knew it.

And for those who question the EULA... you seriously think Blizzard or anyone else would spend all of that money on lawyers to draft it if it didn't mean anything?

As Public Knowledge explained in its brief, Blizzard's theory confuses a copyright holder's intellectual property rights in the software it develops with a buyer's rights in the actual copy of the software. An owner of software has a right to copy it if that copy is essential to the customer's use of the software. (See Section 117 of the Copyright Act.) This rule helps balance the rights of the copyright holder to manage and benefit from its expressive work, and the rights of the public to use and build on that work. Blizzard argued that players aren't owners but merely software licensees, so Section 117 doesn't apply.

This actually does make sense, especially in regard to private servers, because you cannot play the game otherwise. Since it is an MMO, you MUST connect to their servers to play the game, you cannot just play it at home by yourself. Not only are you paying to access their content, buy you are paying to use their servers, which I guess would be akin to renting their bandwidth.

Everyone in this thread has installed software on their machine. Unless you are being intentionally thick-headed, everyone knows what that "I Accept" button is for when you install a piece of software. On WoW patch days, you have to click it 2 times! People are just being ****y that Blizzard can sue them if they want.

Here's a fun series to read... WoW Insider has a series called The Lawbringer where they discuss these types of things, including a recent piece on the EULA.

http://www.wow.com/2...de-to-the-eula/

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I never said private servers were a large percentage of WoW players or anything of the sort.

Ok fair enopugh, but if I quote "if it wasn't for them, many people would not be interested in WoW at all". So you did a typo, it should be "very few"?

Things may have changed, but when I quit playing WoW, private servers had probably around 80% of the things working almost exactly like retail. I wouldn't personally classify that as "quite poor". If you want "quite poor" you need to look at private servers when they first came around years ago.

Cannot comment on that because I don't play WoW any longer, but I was basing that on what I read at the time I did play. If they have gotten much better the last years, well then I can understand why Blizzard is trying to shut them down. If they didn't maybe there would be a larger base of players quitting and starting to play on free servers. I think there is a lot of fatigued longtime players now after so many years and they wont be able to renew their player base forever. To bad there isn't any really good competition in the MMO market. There are other games, but none that really caters to the players that liked WoW. Maybe Old Republic can do that, we'll see.

And no, I haven't played on any such server myself, don't find it tempting.

Theres 2 types of people who play on private servers:

1) People who would never pay to play on retail.

2) People who decided WoW was not worth the money they were spending and were ready to quit WoW anyway.

So there are only two types of people who play on pirate servers, yet you said this earlier;

Also, I think Blizzard should thank private servers, if it wasn't for them, many people would not be interested in WoW at all. Private servers allow people to remain interested while introducing people to WoW in general, leading to potentially more sales when people get fed up with the private server bugs, or other people see the person playing on a private server (they see the person playing WoW, get interested in it, look it up and find the official servers).

How does that work with what you said above? How can a player never wanting to pay retail or have played but quit be a bonus to Blizzard?

Also, why would Blizzard allow them? It's like "hey, go along and copy our game and don't pay for it, we think it is ok" which is something they would never accept. I don't think they spend a lot of money on hunting and prosecuting them, it's something they already has to pay for (a legal department) so why not put them to work.

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Well maybe if people would actually read, he wouldn't feel the need to emphasize certain points like that.

I like the EFF and what they do to protect us, but the whole tone of that piece is annoying. Buying physical media, or even paying a monthly sub fee should in no way allow us to do whatever we want with World of Warcraft, or any other form of entertainment. Buying a (music) CD, (movie) DVD, or a game is not the same as buying a physical item like a couch, or a pair of jeans. That is your couch, those are your jeans. You can give them away, modify them with sewn-on patches or dye and just have a grand ol' time. Buying physical media is not the same as buying the content on that media, which has been ruled on over and over and over again in courts for various lawsuits. Just like those guys in Florida who were doing their Apple boxes, it was only a matter of time before they got caught, and they knew it.

And for those who question the EULA... you seriously think Blizzard or anyone else would spend all of that money on lawyers to draft it if it didn't mean anything?

This actually does make sense, especially in regard to private servers, because you cannot play the game otherwise. Since it is an MMO, you MUST connect to their servers to play the game, you cannot just play it at home by yourself. Not only are you paying to access their content, buy you are paying to use their servers, which I guess would be akin to renting their bandwidth.

Everyone in this thread has installed software on their machine. Unless you are being intentionally thick-headed, everyone knows what that "I Accept" button is for when you install a piece of software. On WoW patch days, you have to click it 2 times! People are just being ****y that Blizzard can sue them if they want.

Here's a fun series to read... WoW Insider has a series called The Lawbringer where they discuss these types of things, including a recent piece on the EULA.

http://www.wow.com/2...de-to-the-eula/

You buy the media, the software product to use on your computer - it's exactly like a couch and you should be able to use it as you see fit. The company is building in arbitrary limits into their license that they don't even disclose at purchase and you have no way of knowing until after you buy, and again it can't often be returned once you open it and find out the limits. If you compare it to other policy changes being made you'll see the government is starting to see and grant rights such as being legally allowed to jailbreak and use whatever service provider you want on your phone, or to install your own software from unlicensed sources, etc - it's not long before something sets a similar precedent for End-User-License-Agreements and software that allows the user to use them how they see fit, assuming they otherwise follow the law and copyright. Maybe at this time the law is just being overlooked/misused or proper consumer protections haven't yet been put into place, that would be something to fight for and doesn't make it correct practice.

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