bob_c_b Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 But then agian, Steam is Free, so if it goes down, what does it cost you? Nothing. Live is not, so when it goes down, you are losing out a little bit. Remember, if you are going to compare, you must compare all aspects. My free time is limited so if I can't play a game due to Steam being down, I'm still out a little bit. I've just accepted that in order to have the full Xbox 360 experience I'm paying for Live, , it was a choice I (and millions others) have made and I've decided whining about it is a waste of time. Yes, it goes down and we all get very upset when it does because you come to rely on it as part of the experience. In 2007 Valve loved Live and and called the PS3 a train wreck, just like the year before that when Gabe Newell called dual cores a train wreck and no the Source engine in optimized for multiple cores, etc... Gabe has a history of lying to the fans and using the gaming press to strong arm partners into doing his bidding, I love Valve games but sometimes I wish Gabe would just shut up. He knew the rules for putting his stuff on Live, acting like it would change just because he wised it would, then being a jerk in the gaming press doesn't say much about his character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisan Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 If Steam goes down it can take your entire game library with it. But it still doesn't cost you anything for service you are not receiving. I have not been through the entire Steam library, but do any of the games have a subscription to play? I do not think any do, and any game you add to Steam (just so you can launch it through steam) can still be launched without Steam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_c_b Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 But it still doesn't cost you anything for service you are not receiving. I have not been through the entire Steam library, but do any of the games have a subscription to play? I do not think any do, and any game you add to Steam (just so you can launch it through steam) can still be launched without Steam. There are a number of MMOs and subscription games on Steam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 But it still doesn't cost you anything for service you are not receiving. Yes it does. Lost time playing a game, which reduces the value of the game you bought. That is a cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sethos Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 But it still doesn't cost you anything for service you are not receiving. I have not been through the entire Steam library, but do any of the games have a subscription to play? I do not think any do, and any game you add to Steam (just so you can launch it through steam) can still be launched without Steam. You'd be hard pressed to call losing a few cents due to an unavailable service a 'cost', not to mention your games still work. I've had times where the Steam servers were down and I couldn't get into offline mode and thus rendered my entire game library useless for a few hours. Being unable to play online for a few hours or seeing your friends list is drops in the ocean but being unable to play your games whatsoever when you want to is a bigger issue in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisan Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 There are a number of MMOs and subscription games on Steam. Are they only available through Steam though? Any game can be tied to Steam, but many of those games can also be played without Steam. Yes it does. Lost time playing a game, which reduces the value of the game you bought. That is a cost. Same with Live, except Live is a service you pay directly for that loses value if it is down. Steam is free, therefore no lost value from Steam itself when it's down. You'd be hard pressed to call losing a few cents due to an unavailable service a 'cost', not to mention your games still work. I've had times where the Steam servers were down and I couldn't get into offline mode and thus rendered my entire game library useless for a few hours. Being unable to play online for a few hours or seeing your friends list is drops in the ocean but being unable to play your games whatsoever when you want to is a bigger issue in my book. Personal preference then IMO. I have not had a single game installed on Steam that I couldn't play without Steam if I wanted to, but when it comes to the games I play more often, being online is a must. Therefore that "few hours of being unable to play online" outweighs "inconvenience of not being able to use Steam as a game launcher for a few hours" in my book. But, I have never had to deal with Steam being offline for a few hours, so thats probably why I do not see it as an issue. The point is, the cost you pay for live compared to the cost you pay for steam is not comparable at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 Same with Live Yup, and nobody was questioning that. except Live is a service you pay directly for that loses value if it is down Yup, you lose game value and live service value both. Steam is free, therefore no lost value from Steam itself when it's down. Yup, it is free. But you still have lost value in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soniqstylz Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 EDIT: And no Xbox Live is not a competitor to Steam, Xbox Live does not work on the PC and Steam does not work on the Xbox. You forget Windows Live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisan Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 You forget Windows Live. It is a different service than Xbox Live, so no, I am not forgetting it, I am ignoring it as it is not the same as Xbox Live. If it were the same, you would be able to run the same games using both systems, like how you can use Steam to run Valve games on Mac and PC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 It is a different service than Xbox Live, so no, I am not forgetting it, I am ignoring it as it is not the same as Xbox Live. It's the same service with different games using the same servers and same features. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soniqstylz Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 Random note, but this isn't the first time MS's lockdown system of Live has butted heads with former PC devs -- Epic had the same issue trying to give free DLC for Gears. Also, Geometry Wars was supposed to be free, but MS wouldn't allow it. Garage Games had issues, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisan Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 It's the same service with different games using the same servers and same features. It uses the same servers and similar features, but that doesn't make it the same service. Thats like saying Sprint and Verizon are the same service because they use the same network and offer similar features. The person I originally replied to with that statement said Valve was bashing xbox live (NOT Games for Windows LIVE) because it was a competitor. Steam does not compete with Xbox Live, if anything it competes with GfWL, which is not what Valve is complaining about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 Steam competes with PSN, Games for Windows Live, Xbox Live, OnLive as well as others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athernar Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 My free time is limited so if I can't play a game due to Steam being down, I'm still out a little bit. I've just accepted that in order to have the full Xbox 360 experience I'm paying for Live, , it was a choice I (and millions others) have made and I've decided whining about it is a waste of time. Yes, it goes down and we all get very upset when it does because you come to rely on it as part of the experience. In 2007 Valve loved Live and and called the PS3 a train wreck, just like the year before that when Gabe Newell called dual cores a train wreck and no the Source engine in optimized for multiple cores, etc... Gabe has a history of lying to the fans and using the gaming press to strong arm partners into doing his bidding, I love Valve games but sometimes I wish Gabe would just shut up. He knew the rules for putting his stuff on Live, acting like it would change just because he wised it would, then being a jerk in the gaming press doesn't say much about his character. Oh please. Go watch the Portal 2/PS3 announcement and study Gabe's body language, It's clear he still has no love for the PS3's architechture. (Which is what he was talking about back in the day) Sony extended an olive branch to Valve by conceeding certain degrees of control over the PS3 ecosystem, by doing such Valve can deliver greater value to it's users on that platform. End-users aren't concerned about architechtural issues, so suddenly being able to provide a similar degree of value to their customers on the PS3 compared to PC/Steam instantly makes it the superior platform in Valve's eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webcivilian Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 If Steam goes down it can take your entire game library with it. Steam lets you play single player games in offline mode if it goes down or a internet connection is not available. In Steam save your password this will let you play games in offline mode. Steam competes with PSN, Games for Windows Live, Xbox Live, OnLive as well as others. What? How can you Steam compete with Live or PSN? Steam is only on the PC and Mac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George P Global Moderator Posted September 13, 2010 Global Moderator Share Posted September 13, 2010 It uses the same servers and similar features, but that doesn't make it the same service. Thats like saying Sprint and Verizon are the same service because they use the same network and offer similar features. The person I originally replied to with that statement said Valve was bashing xbox live (NOT Games for Windows LIVE) because it was a competitor. Steam does not compete with Xbox Live, if anything it competes with GfWL, which is not what Valve is complaining about. Both Xbox live and Games for Windows live can, though this hasn't been used since shadowrun, work together as one, just like steamworks. YOu can have 360 vs PC and so on. The thing here is that no dev really bothers with it and it doesn't get used. You can have the same Live arcade games on the 360 and on the PC and even play between them, they demoed Uno back when Games for Windows Live came out, between a 360 and PC player. It's thus THE SAME DAMN SERVICE, the key here is the fact you pay for Xbox Live Gold and not the other. That difference doesn't change the nature of them being the same thing on different platforms. MS gets it's money off of you on the PC side through windows licenses and also game licenses that use GfWL and so on, thus you don't pay them anything for the service on the PC. The same service is being extended to the phone now as well, but they're sticking with calling it Xbox Live and not something new like Phone Games Live or something silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shakey Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 If Steam goes down it can take your entire game library with it. Wrong. If steam goes down, you play in offline mode. You still keep your games, you just lose online. Have you ever tried offline mode? Edit- Doh, just saw you said you couldn't get into offline mode.... don't know how that happens, as I have never had any issues with getting into offline mode. If internet is down, it says, internet connection not found, would you like to play in offline mode. Click yes, and everything is there, ready to play singleplayer/offline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shakey Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 Steam competes with PSN, Games for Windows Live, Xbox Live, OnLive as well as others. How is steam competing with something that isn't even on the PC? Games for Windows Live is nothing compared to Steam, and other services are dwarfed on the pc that you will really have a hard time finding anyone using them. Steam has no real competition at the moment. A free service, that offers games at discount, dedicated servers and support to search for them, voice chat, friends list, tracking of stats, and much more. Sure, it can be similar to Xbox Live, but it is not the same. Also, free beats paid for any day in my book, but that is a opinion of mine lol. Has anyone actually used games for windows live? It is horrible at best. No where near what steam is, or even what steam started off as so long ago. Hell, Games for Windows Live makes PSN look wonderful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_c_b Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 Oh please. Go watch the Portal 2/PS3 announcement and study Gabe's body language, It's clear he still has no love for the PS3's architechture. (Which is what he was talking about back in the day) Sony extended an olive branch to Valve by conceeding certain degrees of control over the PS3 ecosystem, by doing such Valve can deliver greater value to it's users on that platform. End-users aren't concerned about architechtural issues, so suddenly being able to provide a similar degree of value to their customers on the PS3 compared to PC/Steam instantly makes it the superior platform in Valve's eyes. lolwut? So you and Gabe are so close you recognize his body language? That body language was a man with his hat in his hand, realizing he may have alienated a revenue source. Being able to route around Sony's controls is a risk Sony has to take, and of course Valve would love to leverage into something more. Let's wait and see some results before we declare it a boon to consumers. Not with your logic. Like saying a hamburger station on mars is competing with one on earth, though they offer different products, and neither of their companies affect each other..... Never heard anyone go, I'm not getting steam on my PC because i have Xbox Live on my 360... or I'm not getting Steam because I have PSN.... doesn't make sense man. You may not have heard them declare it, but it happens, living proof. As I find myself spending more time on my consoles I stopped running gaming PCs at home. So I don't have Steam on my netbook or my nettop, I rely on Live and to a lesser extent PSN for gaming content. I didn't decide to not have a Steam, I decided I didn't need a PC of that magnitude, but the end result was the same. So they do all compete because of so much overlapping functionality and for many people, Live wins. Sony ceding part of their network to Steam basically shows both are desperate to compete with these supposedly unrelated services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sethos Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 lolwut? So you and Gabe are so close you recognize his body language? Being able to route around Sony's controls is a risk Sony has to take, and of course Valve would love to leverage into something more. Let's wait and see some results before we declare it a boon to consumers. When his belly flops, he is displeased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shakey Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 You may not have heard them declare it, but it happens, living proof. As I find myself spending more time on my consoles I stopped running gaming PCs at home. So I don't have Steam on my netbook or my nettop, I rely on Live and to a lesser extent PSN for gaming content. I didn't decide to not have a Steam, I decided I didn't need a PC of that magnitude, but the end result was the same. That is true, but it is a different type of situation. Valve is not trying to sway people away from consoles, and there really is not PC vs console war. They are 2 very different markets really. If Valve is competing for anything, it is for PC'ers to buy their games through the steam service, not to switch people over. Their service offers games on the PC, not on anything else. There is not competition for them in the PC market ( except for stores, which steam royally owns them at prices and service ), and I'm sure they have no worries about Live or PSN ever taking money away. They are trying to get into the console market yes, but they are not trying to compete with Live or PSN. Their service is on a whole different plain. Now if they had some console version of steam, yes, we would have a competition, but that is not what they are trying to do. What they want though, is to be able and give their customers needed updates and DLC, that they feel should be free, for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spenser.d Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 Buddy, that is a huge pile of fresh horse dung. From all the time I've used Steam I can't remember any outage as bad as Live at Christmas You're still on about that? I'd bet you Steam would go down too if some hundreds of thousands of people created new accounts in one day and tried to use the service. Most services would. And that's really the only time in 8 years that there's been unscheduled downtime on XBL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_c_b Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 That is true, but it is a different type of situation. Valve is not trying to sway people away from consoles, and there really is not PC vs console war. They are 2 very different markets really. If Valve is competing for anything, it is for PC'ers to buy their games through the steam service, not to switch people over. Their service offers games on the PC, not on anything else. There is not competition for them in the PC market ( except for stores, which steam royally owns them at prices and service ), and I'm sure they have no worries about Live or PSN ever taking money away. They are trying to get into the console market yes, but they are not trying to compete with Live or PSN. Their service is on a whole different plain. Now if they had some console version of steam, yes, we would have a competition, but that is not what they are trying to do. What they want though, is to be able and give their customers needed updates and DLC, that they feel should be free, for free. Valve doesn't need Steamworks integration on PSN to deliver free updates, you are missing the big picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_c_b Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 What is the big picture then? Ummm, Valve wants to leverage Steam in the console space as well, seems pretty clear. No other reason to add this functionality for them, if it were just a matter of free content PS3 already allows this. For that matter, Live allows it too, see Ubisoft's Uplay service, MS just doesn't allow them to host Uplay content on Live servers, so Uplay feels... less convenient. Same with EA/Bioware and the Cerebus Netowrk. There's obviously a lot of money in the console space and Valve wants Steam to be brand presence there as well, seems simple and you can't blame them, just like you can't blame MS for wanting Live to be "that brand". Someone posted it earlier but it was a good point, if PSN was the dominant network service in the console space they would not touch this offer with a ten foot pole. But they aren't so they need any "perk" they can get. Any time Steam loses a gamer to consoles it is a result of competition, just because Steam doesn't currently run on consoles does not mean it is not a direct competitor. Valve is more likely worried about Xbox Live and PSN than they are Stardock or Games for Windows Live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayepecks Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 nice way to bring down the level of maturity some of us have been trying to keep up in these discussions...... but we get your point lol Some of you, sure. But the vast majority of the "points" made in this thread haven't changed since the first few pages. All that's going on now is circular arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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