Nagisan Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 Any time Steam loses a gamer to consoles it is a result of competition, just because Steam doesn't currently run on consoles does not mean it is not a direct competitor. Valve is more likely worried about Xbox Live and PSN than they are Stardock or Games for Windows Live. I disagree with that. I think most of the people that Steam loses to a console is due to game selection, not the service itself. Most people I have seen who have played Valve games on both PC and Xbox or PS3 agree that the PC version is better because of the patches and content updates, that puts Valve in the lead on that front from my own experience. I have never seen a PC gamer that has been using Steam go from Steam on the PC, to Xbox Live or PSN on the respective consoles for the same exact games. Most of the customers that Steam loses do so because of the exclusive games on one of the two consoles or a game that does not have a PC version, not because Steam as a whole is worse than Xbox Live or PSN. In terms of content delivery, Steam is on a level of its own, Xbox Live and PSN do not even compare, the main difference between the three is the selection of content which is a very opinionated subject. I personally would NEVER buy a FPS on a console even if I owned one, and as such, Steam is the much better platform in that aspect to me personally. Others would rather not play FPS games on a PC (why, I have no clue, controls absolutely suck), and as such, in the same exact aspect, Xbox Live or PSN win over Steam. They are not direct competitors, they compete for customers in the same way that car manufacturers compete against truck manufacturers, they both serve a similar customer base, but they both have very different selections in content (somebody who hauls lots of stuff or tows lots of stuff is most likely going to get a truck instead of a car). It is up to the end user to decide which content is more relevant to them. Most PC gamers will never use or like Xbox live because control issues and what not that make Xbox games in general less appealing to them. Most Xbox gamers will never use or like Steam because they either do not like the PC game selection or they do not like the hassle of keeping their PC up to date. Its two VERY different markets that compete for a similar customer base, but they do not compete on a direct level where one person is likely to sway between the two based on the level of service. I know I personally use to be a console gamer back in the days of the original PS and PS2, during that time I mostly played racing games and third-person action games (like god of war control/gameplay), now, I have converted to a PC gamer only and I prefer FPS games and enjoy them more than I ever enjoyed racing or third-person games. As such, I will never buy another console no matter how good their service is unless they get control schemes and the ability to customize like PCs have, which I doubt will ever happen on consoles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shakey Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 I disagree with that. I think most of the people that Steam loses to a console is due to game selection, not the service itself. Most people I have seen who have played Valve games on both PC and Xbox or PS3 agree that the PC version is better because of the patches and content updates, that puts Valve in the lead on that front from my own experience. I have never seen a PC gamer that has been using Steam go from Steam on the PC, to Xbox Live or PSN on the respective consoles for the same exact games. Most of the customers that Steam loses do so because of the exclusive games on one of the two consoles or a game that does not have a PC version, not because Steam as a whole is worse than Xbox Live or PSN. In terms of content delivery, Steam is on a level of its own, Xbox Live and PSN do not even compare, the main difference between the three is the selection of content which is a very opinionated subject. I personally would NEVER buy a FPS on a console even if I owned one, and as such, Steam is the much better platform in that aspect to me personally. Others would rather not play FPS games on a PC (why, I have no clue, controls absolutely suck), and as such, in the same exact aspect, Xbox Live or PSN win over Steam. They are not direct competitors, they compete for customers in the same way that car manufacturers compete against truck manufacturers, they both serve a similar customer base, but they both have very different selections in content. It is up to the end user to decide which content is more relevant to them. Most PC gamers will never use or like Xbox live because control issues and what not that make Xbox games in general less appealing. Most Xbox gamers will never use or like Steam because they either do not like the PC game selection or they do not like the hassle of keeping their PC up to date. Its two VERY different markets that compete for a similar customer base, but they do not compete on a direct level where one person is likely to sway between the two based on the level of service. Woooo, someone who sees the picture I'm looking at lol. I'm not crazy, or at least alone in my insanity *phew* :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_c_b Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 It's the wrong picture, but keep looking at it. No one is arguing that Steam isn't the best choice on PC, but lots of people no longer feel PC is the choice for gaming. Losing a customer is losing a customer and not being leveraged into popular gaming platforms in a competitive market is foolish. The vast majority of mainstream content on Steam is also available on the consoles, and they do compete for the same customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisan Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 It's the wrong picture, but keep looking at it. No one is arguing that Steam isn't the best choice on PC, but lots of people no longer feel PC is the choice for gaming. Losing a customer is losing a customer and not being leveraged into popular gaming platforms in a competitive market is foolish. The vast majority of mainstream content on Steam is also available on the consoles, and they do compete for the same customers. To me PC is still the best choice for gaming, you can upgrade at any time which allows developers to bring out better and better games without having to wait for the next console (I know, graphics don't make a game but they certainly make it better), you have better controls for anything buy driver/flying (but even then, you can get a gamepad or a joystick and have equal if not better controls to a console), games have much more customization, etc. Really, the ONLY reasons consoles do so well in terms of gaming (from a consumer standpoint) is they are cheaper to maintain once you buy one, if you ignore the price difference, consoles don't even compare to PCs for gaming potential, and outside of gaming you get a much more powerful system that can do much more than a console can. Like I said, it is opinionated, I am sure many of you will argue till you are blue in the face that consoles are better for gaming, I don't see it that way, therefore to me, Steam is a much better content delivery system. Yes, they are competing for the same customers, but each group has its own niche. Xbox live is not going to win over 99% of PC gamers just like Steam isn't going to win over 99% of xbox live gamers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shakey Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 It's the wrong picture, but keep looking at it. No one is arguing that Steam isn't the best choice on PC, but lots of people no longer feel PC is the choice for gaming. Losing a customer is losing a customer and not being leveraged into popular gaming platforms in a competitive market is foolish. The vast majority of mainstream content on Steam is also available on the consoles, and they do compete for the same customers. It isn't really losing a customer though for steam, as their games on the consoles are not really selling, and they offer games that you can only play on a pc. A lot of gamers actually own both a pc and some console, so it might not be losing a customer as much as just not having the item in the first place of whatever desired choice, but they will have others. Also, just like Live, developers pay valve, or valve gets a portion of profit, from what is sold on steam. Since the items on steam are really not on consoles, you are stuck, as a PC gamer, with steam or store. Just like with consoles, you are stuck with Live/PSN or store. But losing a sale is something I don't think is really happening to Valve, unless it is on the console side, as no one is buying their console games due to the PC having superiority over them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_c_b Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 To me PC is still the best choice for gaming, you can upgrade at any time which allows developers to bring out better and better games without having to wait for the next console (I know, graphics don't make a game but they certainly make it better), you have better controls for anything buy driver/flying (but even then, you can get a gamepad or a joystick and have equal if not better controls to a console), games have much more customization, etc. Really, the ONLY reasons consoles do so well in terms of gaming (from a consumer standpoint) is they are cheaper to maintain once you buy one, if you ignore the price difference, consoles don't even compare to PCs for gaming potential, and outside of gaming you get a much more powerful system that can do much more than a console can. Like I said, it is opinionated, I am sure many of you will argue till you are blue in the face that consoles are better for gaming, I don't see it that way, therefore to me, Steam is a much better content delivery system. Yes, they are competing for the same customers, but each group has its own niche. Xbox live is not going to win over 99% of PC gamers just like Steam isn't going to win over 99% of xbox live gamers. Are you missing the point that Valve is pretty clearly platform agnostic? They don't care what the platform is, they know Valve games need to be on it, and if they can find a way to leverage Steam on that platform as well, they will. A LOT of people have given up PC gaming for the 360 and PS3, not declaring PC gaming dead because that is silly, but the industry has shifted and Valve recognizes this or there would not be console versions of their games, and they surely want to see if they can gain some cash from a console version of their online service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emn1ty Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 Like I said, it is opinionated, I am sure many of you will argue till you are blue in the face that consoles are better for gaming, I don't see it that way, therefore to me, Steam is a much better content delivery system. Yes, they are competing for the same customers, but each group has its own niche. Xbox live is not going to win over 99% of PC gamers just like Steam isn't going to win over 99% of xbox live gamers. I think it is a matter of convenience more than one being better than the other. Consoles are smaller and easier to transport making them far more portable than any tower. If you want to take powerful laptops then your are forgoing the ability to upgrade at any time and drastically increasing the price difference. With a console, you don't have to upgrade to keep up with the "developers who don't have to wait for the hardware". You console is always up-to-date, it is easy to take with you (and with the 360 HDD system even easier) and it is cheaper in the long run. While a PC is great for all kinds of things, a console is great for gaming in particular IMO. And that doesn't just mean graphics, but socially as well. I love my PC and the games I have on it, but I hate lugging it around just to play a game of SCII with my friends in the same room. With my 360 it takes about 2 minutes to pack up and I'm out the door, perhaps 10lb's heavier than I would have been. Convenience is everything, but also extremely based on circumstance. Still, I think Valve needs to understand that their online store won't work on consoles. They just need to expand the community to the consoles. Connecting to Steam via my 360/PS3 would be awesome and allow me to see what my friends are playing regardless of being on Live, Steam or PSN. It would literally interconnect my entire gaming experience. That alone is worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_c_b Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 It isn't really losing a customer though for steam, as their games on the consoles are not really selling, and they offer games that you can only play on a pc. A lot of gamers actually own both a pc and some console, so it might not be losing a customer as much as just not having the item in the first place of whatever desired choice, but they will have others. Also, just like Live, developers pay valve, or valve gets a portion of profit, from what is sold on steam. Since the items on steam are really not on consoles, you are stuck, as a PC gamer, with steam or store. Just like with consoles, you are stuck with Live/PSN or store. But losing a sale is something I don't think is really happening to Valve, unless it is on the console side, as no one is buying their console games due to the PC having superiority over them. Back that up with some facts as Orange Box, L4D and L4D2 have sold millions of copies and the Live version of Portal as well. A quick google shows the Xbox 360 version L4D2 sold almost 1 million copies (750,000 plus) in it's first week on sale and all the Valve console vesions have entered the platinum collection, meaning each sold over 1 million copies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shakey Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 Back that up with some facts as Orange Box, L4D and L4D2 have sold millions of copies and the Live version of Portal as well. A quick google shows the Xbox 360 version L4D2 sold almost 1 million copies (750,000 plus) in it's first week on sale and all the Valve console vesions have entered the platinum collection, meaning each sold over 1 million copies. I'd love to give you PC sales numbers, but valve doesn't release steam sales, but only store bought. It can be estimated that the PC sold just as many copies of l4d2 as console did in stores though. And while those did sale plenty to start, they were not getting the support that the PC copies were getting. Orange box is basically dead on consoles, except for portal which really never needed an update. l4d2 was given some what of a update, but at a cost. I know a lot of people who bought orange box for both consoles, and due to how it was treated, said they would stay away from valve games on console until they could see they would get the same benefits that the PC'ers got. Of course, that can also be said of PC'ers who get ported console games lol. And I think portal was the main reason behind orange box selling so well, as that game is just amazing on any system. If you compare those games though, there is more people replaying those games and still playing those games on PC than their console counter parts. I think a games longevity is a better way to tell if a game did and is doing well, rather than just sales numbers. Masses will flock to something new and exciting at first, but a truly good game will continue to be played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 To me PC is still the best choice for gaming, you can upgrade at any time And to others, they like the fact that with consoles, they never have to upgrade. which allows developers to bring out better and better games This happens on both console and PC. you have better controls for anything buy driver/flying (but even then, you can get a gamepad or a joystick and have equal if not better controls to a console) I don't think anyone questions that fact that PC's have more features, more power and more control choices. How could they? It's a fact that they do. But there are some who don't care about all that stuff and are happy with a controller and a less powerful gaming machine. games have much more customization, etc. Indeed. I don't think anyone questions that either. But there are many gamers out there that don't care about customizing. Really, the ONLY reasons consoles do so well in terms of gaming (from a consumer standpoint) is they are cheaper to maintain once you buy one, if you ignore the price difference, consoles don't even compare to PCs for gaming potential, and outside of gaming you get a much more powerful system that can do much more than a console can. There are more reasons than just less expensive. Some prefer consoles because they don't have to upgrade. Some prefer consoles because they can just plug and play, no installs. Some prefer consoles because they don't have to maintain them with service packs, graphic card updates. Some prefer consoles because they can be more portable. Some prefer consoles because they have games that are not found on PC. Some prefer consoles because of the simple all in one online community. Some prefer console because their friends have them and they want to play games with their friends. PC gaming is a better gaming experience for you, yet it's not a better gaming experience for others. I game on everything, so I am fine with them all (though I enjoy console gaming more now having been a PC gamer for 30 years before becoming a console gamer). Like I said, it is opinionated, I am sure many of you will argue till you are blue in the face that consoles are better for gaming I don't think you will find that people are arguing that consoles are better for gaming. What you will find is that those gamers will state that gaming on console is better for THEM and better for others as well, and it's just an opinion. Yes, they are competing for the same customers Yup! Exactly. but each group has its own niche. Xbox live is not going to win over 99% of PC gamers just like Steam isn't going to win over 99% of xbox live gamers. But Xbox Live would like 99% of PC gamers if they could, and Steam would like 99% of Xbox gamers if they could. They are all competing for a piece of the pie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xendrome Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 Thread Cleaned, lets keep it on topic please... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_c_b Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 I'd love to give you PC sales numbers, but valve doesn't release steam sales, but only store bought. It can be estimated that the PC sold just as many copies of l4d2 as console did in stores though. And while those did sale plenty to start, they were not getting the support that the PC copies were getting. Orange box is basically dead on consoles, except for portal which really never needed an update. l4d2 was given some what of a update, but at a cost. I know a lot of people who bought orange box for both consoles, and due to how it was treated, said they would stay away from valve games on console until they could see they would get the same benefits that the PC'ers got. Of course, that can also be said of PC'ers who get ported console games lol. And I think portal was the main reason behind orange box selling so well, as that game is just amazing on any system. If you compare those games though, there is more people replaying those games and still playing those games on PC than their console counter parts. I think a games longevity is a better way to tell if a game did and is doing well, rather than just sales numbers. Masses will flock to something new and exciting at first, but a truly good game will continue to be played. Everything you just posted was anecdotal, you are simply guessing. Simple facts, all 3 Valve releases on Xbox 360 have sold more than 1 million copies, you can spin and contort it any way you want, but since porting between PC and 360 isn't a big stretch, that's at least 1 million customer Valve might not have had on PC (if we assume it was the same 1 million people buying all 3 games, which also likely isn't true). If you prefer PC gaming then by all means, rock on, but stop acting like it's not in Valve's best interest to have a presence in the console market and stop pretending Valve games don't sell well on console. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spookie Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 Any time a PC gamer sees their game on a console, the first thing they do is insult the game, call it a bad port, condescend console gamers somehow, or blame the developers. Same thing vice versa (all the Modern Warfare hate, basically). We do? Where is the hate for the Orange Box? Or Left 4 Dead? Where is the hate for CoD4? You're talking about MW2 right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 We do? Where is the hate for the Orange Box? Or Left 4 Dead? Where is the hate for CoD4? You're talking about MW2 right? Riiiiight... you don't hang out to much in the GH do you ? you're seriously claiming you don't notice the PC game whining abotu dumbing down for consoles on all those games (despite the fact that they're not dumbed down for consoles, and that consoles could easily play them non dumbed down. they're dumbed down for bigger mass market appeal ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athernar Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 lolwut? So you and Gabe are so close you recognize his body language? That body language was a man with his hat in his hand, realizing he may have alienated a revenue source. Being able to route around Sony's controls is a risk Sony has to take, and of course Valve would love to leverage into something more. Let's wait and see some results before we declare it a boon to consumers. Because the human race don't share basic traits amirite? Body language is easily readable if you know what to look for. Gabe != Valve. His opinions are his own, and it's painfully obvious he still dislikes the PS3. Heck, if Gabe was the unquestionable overlord that you seem to be painting him as then L4D2 wouldn't exist. He didn't want to do it, Chet faliszek did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_c_b Posted September 15, 2010 Share Posted September 15, 2010 Because the human race don't share basic traits amirite? Body language is easily readable if you know what to look for. Gabe != Valve. His opinions are his own, and it's painfully obvious he still dislikes the PS3. Heck, if Gabe was the unquestionable overlord that you seem to be painting him as then L4D2 wouldn't exist. He didn't want to do it, Chet faliszek did. If you say so, but seems more like you are reading what you want his body language to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisan Posted September 15, 2010 Share Posted September 15, 2010 If you say so, but seems more like you are reading what you want his body language to say. In much the same way that people hear what they are told they hear and interpret "hidden" words in other sound (like playing music backwards). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yardmanflex Posted September 15, 2010 Share Posted September 15, 2010 and that's bad because? I don't want games to throw updates every time I start my Xbox. I also don't see a point of porting Steam to Xbox 360. It has one store already and that's enough. No comments on PS3 side since I don't know how it works in that respect. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athernar Posted September 16, 2010 Share Posted September 16, 2010 If you say so, but seems more like you are reading what you want his body language to say. Maybe I am, but I'd wager my estimation is closer to "the truth" than yours is. We know two things. One is that we saw a man that was clearly uncomfortable about where he was, let's also consider he did remark about his comments regarding the PS3 at the time. Secondly, we also know Valve are not a revenue-driven company - proof being TF2. So I put the above together and it sounds very much to me that Valve's sudden turnaround on the PS3 is due to their ability to offer greater value to their customers, if it was a matter of revenue stream surely they'd never of stopped releasing on the PS3 in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_c_b Posted September 16, 2010 Share Posted September 16, 2010 Maybe I am, but I'd wager my estimation is closer to "the truth" than yours is. We know two things. One is that we saw a man that was clearly uncomfortable about where he was, let's also consider he did remark about his comments regarding the PS3 at the time. Secondly, we also know Valve are not a revenue-driven company - proof being TF2. So I put the above together and it sounds very much to me that Valve's sudden turnaround on the PS3 is due to their ability to offer greater value to their customers, if it was a matter of revenue stream surely they'd never of stopped releasing on the PS3 in the first place. If you don't understand how the TF2 model drives revenue there is really nothing to talk about, you do not understand the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duality Posted September 16, 2010 Share Posted September 16, 2010 Careful now, you're treading on what PC gamers consider holy territory. Any time a PC gamer sees their game on a console, the first thing they do is insult the game, call it a bad port, condescend console gamers somehow, or blame the developers. Same thing vice versa (all the Modern Warfare hate, basically). It's not worth trying to argue, any time we console gamers bring up any advantage of console gaming, we get stepped on like bugs. Trust me, save your words, PC gamers on Neowin have long proven they are very hostile to anyone who prefers or finds consoles to be more advantageous to a situation. What? You are getting really good at this "sweeping generalisation" game. You do realise that the majority of PC gamers actually do not care at all - and the ones you are referring to are just the very vocal minority? I hated MW2 for the limitations that were imposed on the PC version to bring it in line with the console versions - I won't say that everyone thinks that way, the game sold brilliantly, but that was my opinion on the game. Conversely, I use an Xbox 360 controller for a number of games on my PC, and I play on Xbox and PS3 consoles at various friends houses all the time - far from hating and being condescending towards console players. Hell, the only reason I haven't bothered to purchase a console myself is because I have put too much money into PC gaming (hardware and software) to justify the cost of an additional platform. Save the terrible generalisations for an argument in which they apply. You have had some good points before - but now you just come across as a blatant troll just trying to get an angsty response from a PC Gamer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athernar Posted September 16, 2010 Share Posted September 16, 2010 If you don't understand how the TF2 model drives revenue there is really nothing to talk about, you do not understand the topic. Don't be so short sighted, of course the updates drive revenue but do you really think that the gain is equivalent to putting a price tag on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_c_b Posted September 17, 2010 Share Posted September 17, 2010 Don't be so short sighted, of course the updates drive revenue but do you really think that the gain is equivalent to putting a price tag on it? Considering Valve has stated that content updates, free weekends and price drops show proportional and often massive sales gains, in some cases, yes. Your argument was that Valve isn't driven by revenue and it was the crux of your rebuttal, but it only makes sense if you never read the many interviews with Valve folks that shows they measure metrics that you and I haven't thought of trying to leverage revenue from every action. This all comes back to your silly assertion that you saw a man uncomfortable speaking to an audience he previously showed a great amount of disrespect too, and somehow you can divine he hates the PS3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WastedJoker Posted September 17, 2010 Share Posted September 17, 2010 What? You are getting really good at this "sweeping generalisation" game. You do realise that the majority of PC gamers actually do not care at all - and the ones you are referring to are just the very vocal minority? I hated MW2 for the limitations that were imposed on the PC version to bring it in line with the console versions - I won't say that everyone thinks that way, the game sold brilliantly, but that was my opinion on the game. Conversely, I use an Xbox 360 controller for a number of games on my PC, and I play on Xbox and PS3 consoles at various friends houses all the time - far from hating and being condescending towards console players. Hell, the only reason I haven't bothered to purchase a console myself is because I have put too much money into PC gaming (hardware and software) to justify the cost of an additional platform. Save the terrible generalisations for an argument in which they apply. You have had some good points before - but now you just come across as a blatant troll just trying to get an angsty response from a PC Gamer. Pretty much the same here - I tend to buy PC games only if they're available on Steam (Starcraft II being the rare exception) and tend to buy PC versions if the game is multi-format but only because I have a powerful PC that can give me far better graphical flexibility than my XBOX could. I really only use my Xbox for exclusives Halo or GoW or RDR. It's sad that the PC game market is not what it used to be but we're still getting quality titles. I'm only worried about PC games that don't have "modability" - so many games are now locked in without any chance of the gaming community being allowed to work on their own content etc. Mafia II is the rare exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athernar Posted September 17, 2010 Share Posted September 17, 2010 Considering Valve has stated that content updates, free weekends and price drops show proportional and often massive sales gains, in some cases, yes. Your argument was that Valve isn't driven by revenue and it was the crux of your rebuttal, but it only makes sense if you never read the many interviews with Valve folks that shows they measure metrics that you and I haven't thought of trying to leverage revenue from every action. This all comes back to your silly assertion that you saw a man uncomfortable speaking to an audience he previously showed a great amount of disrespect too, and somehow you can divine he hates the PS3. You're completely missing the point. Valve explore alternative methods of revenue, true; But that is irrelevant to the point that they are not revenue-driven, their intent is not one of gouging gamers for every penny a la Activision. You're also ignoring the aspect of percieved content value - Many in the TF2 community will go out and buy a full game (That they'll never play) for a cosmetic in-game item, it's not much of a strech to assume that with a fair pricing, the margin of revenue from add-on content sales could massively eclipse the degree of new sales lost due to the addition of a price tag. I'm not sure what is hard about comprehending the possibility that Valve is less interested in end-user irrelevant architechture issues (Gabe's problem with the PS3) which can eventually be overcome and simply what makes the most money (L4D3 coming soon!); But more interested in offering greater value and flexibility to their customers. "An audience he previously showed a great amount of disrespect to"? Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know the PS3 was a religion now. I guess I'll have to go repent my sins by giving Sony all my money. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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