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Richard Hammond

There is substantially much more to the law than that (it was a semester long class just on copyrights alone in school). Piracy laws were enacted for numerous reasons, one of which is loss of sales.

Yes i know there is more to it than that im not a lawyer but potential loss of sales isnt theft.

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Nagisan

Yes i know there is more to it than that im not a lawyer but potential loss of sales isnt theft.

If potential loss of sales is theft, then everyone needs to be arrested because, given a weapon, they are a potential murderer....

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HyBry

Tell us all mighty one, please. We wait with open arms for your canter and knowledge.

Stilltrying to figure all out, but one thing, it is not all black and white. There are many, many shades of gray.

And the truth shall set you free. See, that wasn't so hard ;)

Maybe you should follow suite and stop being so hard headed. There is no 1:1 linear relationship between pirated game and lost sale.

And this my friends is what I call the most extreme example of charity, or 100% pure rubbish. As much as I love gaming and charities, I would never put myself in debt and put my company out of business and take the food off of my families table because I felt so giving and bold to give away $40 million in a game only to not pay my staff and bills.

a. I said maybe

b. there are enough business models out there that not call for hard sale. Microtransactions, donations as mentiond above, advertisements. If I did spends 40 mil on a game I would make sure that I have something like that to make money. Look at Zynga games on Facebook, they are free to play, and yet make millions.

If you don't see the value in it, you don't buy it...and you don't steal it.

yep, i copy it :D

Majority could be 51%. That is a sizable amount of lost sales. That is stealing.

yes but few would not be 49%

Yes, it is. So why should I keep buying all the games I have if I can just pirate them? Are you saying that if I start pirating right now that those companies are not losing sales? I no longer need to buy games now!

Please note that I did not say that you should not buy games. I buy them and people should buy them. But at the same time there will be people who will chose to pirate. And majority of them have no intention on buying the game, but they can spread the word about the game, helping it gain popularity and sales.

In addition, they should also realise that world is getting globalised and it sucks for users if the game is available in half the world but in other it isn't. If the game is not sold in the region it is more of an lost opertunity than a sale.

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Hedon

Question for you. Do you think it is wrong to back up a dvd for personal use? Ie to stop it getting scratched or breaking?

Do I think it's wrong that people do it? No. I do it for some things. Do I think it's wrong that we are restricted from doing that by some and that it's an unfair term of agreement? Yes. Do I break that agreement? Yes. An example of where I am doing just that. Many times I will rip one of the DVD's that purchased to my laptop for my flights so that I am carrying less with me, and so that I get bettery battery life while watching the movies on the plane. As far as I know, that is illegal, yes. I am knowingly breaking the law or agreement in that case. I did however, buy the product and I did no redistribute either. So that makes me feel better about it.

Or better yet, ripping a CD so you can listen to it on an mp3 player?

Yup, do that all the time. Back when I bought CD's, I always ripped them to my iTunes library to I could listen to them on my iPod.

Doesnt mean you are stealing if you do either of these two things.

I never said that was stealing.

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Nagisan

Please note that I did not say that you should not buy games. I buy them and people should buy them. But at the same time there will be people who will chose to pirate. And majority of them have no intention on buying the game, but they can spread the word about the game, helping it gain popularity and sales.

Case and point, take a look at Minecraft, a majority of people pirated the game when it first started, look at the sales figures now. For a game with no advertising and only word-of-mouth to get it by, it is doing quite well. It wouldn't be doing nearly as well without piracy because nobody would be talking about it.

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WelshBluebird

I never said that was stealing.

Yes you were. You were saying copyright infringment was the same as theft.

Ripping DVD's or CD's onto your computer for whatever reason is copyright infringment (at least in the UK).

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Hedon
Please note that I did not say that you should not buy games

Why should I buy games if I can just get it free?

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treemonster

There is substantially much more to the law than that (it was a semester long class just on copyrights alone in school). Piracy laws were enacted for numerous reasons, one of which is loss of sales.

if you took a class on piracy or copyright law(which you don't seem to demonstrate having done here) you'd know copyright infringement goes way back longer than the internet has been mainstream, and outside ofhte speciific details of the DMCA has some different ramifications on counterfeit goods in particular, above and beyond simply protecting special interest and big business.

that being said, copyright law in america more often hurts culture by cutting off access to the public domain of works that have't made money in years, by dead artists and authors, that could've been extended if they did make money still under the old(pre 1978) laws.

another example of this si why do you think drug prices are so expensive in america compared to everywhere else? yes it's your copyright laws at work, protecting big business and special interests over society.

loss of sales has little to do with it when it comes to fair copyright law in the US. when products that haven't been profitable to sell in years are locked down by copyright holders, or products who are sold in generic versions by 3rd party vendors, and the original is still quite profitable in those countries, all it serves to do is ripp off the average american consumer of both his hard earned cash and his culture.

if you think copyright infringment is such a terrible crime, stop watching youtube videos not uploaded directly by the copyright holder, including video games videos and tv show mash ups(fair use doesn't get enforced anymore in america), stop reading OPs of threads like this one with copy pasta from the source with a link, because yep, a violation of american copyright law, don't use google images to view pics, because yep violation of american copyright law.

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the better twin

I never said that was stealing.

Fair enough, I was just giving some examples of how out of touch copyright laws are. Piracy (not the jack sparrow kind) is not stealing and most of what falls under copyright infringment shouldnt be illegal either.

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Hedon

Yes you were. You were saying copyright infringment was the same as theft.

Ripping DVD's or CD's onto your computer for whatever reason is copyright infringment (at least in the UK).

I said taking something that isn't yours and NOT paying for it pirating) is theft. I paid for my DVDs and CD's, and I am the user of those DVD's and CD. If I ripped a copy of that CD, Game or DVD that I bought and gave you a copy, that would be stealing.

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treemonster

Why should I buy games if I can just get it free?

/facepalm.

you agreed with my post that illustrated that we pc gamers CHOOSE to pay for software. we CAN get them for free. it is our CHOICE compeltely, and for many of us outside of america, this is not illegal at all.

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Nagisan

I said taking something that isn't yours and NOT paying for it pirating) is theft.

I agree, but copying something that is not yours is copyright infringement (piracy), not theft.

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Laura

I think it's obvious that piracy leads to some lost sales. There are lots of people who will take things for free if they can, but pay if they can't. There are lots of people who will never pay either way. *I* don't like piracy because I think it's selfish to take something for free that others have put a lot of work in to. If you don't like what they're trying to charge you can do without instead of being an entitled baby. Luckily lots of people feel this way even when they do have the option to pirate games.

But what does this have to do with the OP? Going back to the 'only £3 to developers' line - it sounds awful but there's a lot more to producing games than just coding them. The servers for digital downloads, marketing, shop overheads, transport costs, packaging, etc etc, none of it comes for free.

Edit: while I'm on my high horse, what's all this arguing about whether copyright infringement is theft? What is the point in this? In some sense it is theft but the technical definition is different. Whether it is illegal or not depends where you live. It seems to me that the arguing is more down to how people feel about the rights and wrongs of piracy, so why not discuss that more directly?

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HyBry

Why should I buy games if I can just get it free?

Why should you post in the Neowin if you can just run naked in the streets?

At the end of the day that is something that you should answer yourself.

Personaly I pay for the games that I believe offer good value for money and where I want to reward the developer. That is to say, if I believe the game is worth it I will pay for it. If not I will not bother with it or I will pirate it just for the kicks.

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Azusa

You do know the word piracy in reference to unauthorized copying of software is a term that refers to copyright infringement and not the literal dictionary meaning of piracy, right?

tl;dr - Look up copyright infringement and compare that to theft/stealing.

You do know that copyright infringement comes under bootlegging right?

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treemonster

I said taking something that isn't yours and NOT paying for it pirating) is theft. I paid for my DVDs and CD's, and I am the user of those DVD's and CD. If I ripped a copy of that CD, Game or DVD that I bought and gave you a copy, that would be stealing.

us law sees no difference between sharing media online, and backing up dvd's or other media you bought in the store.

iirc california was at one point going to ban the sale of DVRs because they violate that state's copyright laws.

there are only special case under american copyright law where you may legally back up media/software or break DRMs, such as jailbreaking smartphones and such.

if the license for the software does not explicitly say you may make back ups, doing so in america is illegal under copyright law.

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Nagisan

You do know that copyright infringement comes under bootlegging right?

My point was the term piracy that we are using refers strictly to copyright infringement, not "act under taken by pirates and that includes Bootlegging, fraud, and theft."

us law sees no difference between sharing media online, and backing up dvd's or other media you bought in the store.

iirc california was at one point going to ban the sale of DVRs because they violate that state's copyright laws.

there are only special case under american copyright law where you may legally back up media/software or break DRMs, such as jailbreaking smartphones and such.

if the license for the software does not explicitly say you may make back ups, doing so in america is illegal under copyright law.

Music is the only thing that can legally be backed up in the US if the license doesn't say you can. Outside of that you are right, any form of circumventing copyright protection for any reason is illegal (in the US only obviously) except in special cases (like you mentioned above).

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treemonster

You do know that copyright infringement comes under bootlegging right?

boot legging is a whole other matter, but related. for example you can buy cheap knock off products just across the border into mexico for a lower price. go into any china town market in north america and chances are you'll find a movie store with tonnes of bootlegged movies.

it's still covered under copyright law though. often the quality and safety of these goods is questionable at best.

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xXTOKERXx

Are you seriously moaning about how much they get?

?3 a game pending there are millions sold worldwide is a pretty tidy profit + everyone is getting a salary who makes the games anyway!

Its business, same as your clothes your wearing were probably made by somebody on a few pence a day!

If the developers want more then become a publisher and developer!

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Hedon
if you took a class on piracy or copyright law(which you don't seem to demonstrate having done here) you'd know copyright infringement goes way back longer than the internet has been mainstream, and outside ofhte speciific details of the DMCA has some different ramifications on counterfeit goods in particular, above and beyond simply protecting special interest and big business.

It's unfortunate that you haven't been educated in this area then to understand the laws, the restrictions and history of copyrights and infringement. It dates back to well before any us of were born. You will also learn the different levels of severity in every different aspect of copyright violations. Everything from trademarks, logos, intellectual rights and their respective statures.

that being said, copyright law in america more often hurts culture by cutting off access to the public domain of works that have't made money in years, by dead artists and authors, that could've been extended if they did make money still under the old(pre 1978) laws.

It's an interesting theory, and one often discussed. No question there are some unfair, and substantially outdated limitations and restrictions in the US with regards to copyright and intellectual property.

loss of sales has little to do with it when it comes to fair copyright law in the US. when products that haven't been profitable to sell in years are locked down by copyright holders, or products who are sold in generic versions by 3rd party vendors, and the original is still quite profitable in those countries, all it serves to do is ripp off the average american consumer of both his hard earned cash and his culture.

But America thrives on the freedom and your choice. The consumer has a choice as to whether or not to create a business. We have rights to make copyrights, intellectual properties, trademarks, registrations, and as much revenue, profit or losses as we choose. Thank god for that, right? So now we have sustained an economy because of fruitful business. In order for that business to remain competitive, and in order for that business to remain successful, they have the support of the people and the government and our laws to enforce any copyrights/trademarks and intellectual rights. That business applies for these protections to prevent business losses. Their logo, their ideas, their patents, as well as all the intellectual property that they create, all of which constitutes an endless number of resources, funding and of course man hours.

The consumers of America, whether they are getting "ripped off" are not above the law, at least not in the U.S. If the consumer feels a product is beyond their means, they need to make a decision. They need to not buy the product. They need to buy the product once they have obtained the necessary and legal resources to do so. Or they need to take legal action against the business or corporation so they can show that the business practice violates any of our fair trade laws. The consumer does not have the right to violate any of those copyright laws. Just because you woudn't have bought it in the first place is not a legal workaround. With that mindset, people wouldn't buy anything if obtaining it for free was legal.

if you think copyright infringment is such a terrible crime, stop watching youtube videos not uploaded directly by the copyright holder, including video games videos and tv show mash ups(fair use doesn't get enforced anymore in america), stop reading OPs of threads like this one with copy pasta from the source with a link, because yep, a violation of american copyright law, don't use google images to view pics, because yep violation of american copyright law.

If you don't like valid forum discussions, why are you participating one. I merely pointed out that part of the increased portion a retailer gets is because of security/theft. In addition, I was pointing out that the 3% portion of the pie would be a larger 3% portion without piracy and shoplifting.

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treemonster

It's unfortunate that you haven't been educated in this area then to understand the laws, the restrictions and history of copyrights and infringement. It dates back to well before any us of were born. You will also learn the different levels of severity in every different aspect of copyright violations. Everything from trademarks, logos, intellectual rights and their respective statures.

if you are better educated than anyone else in this thread, why do you continually demonstrate ignorance on the subject? if you took a class on copyright laws, you would know quite plainly that piracy isn't theft.

piracy as theft is a marketing slogan of the copyright litigation industry and has been been for decades now. and no more than that. it is niether reflected in any country's law nor in public perception in general, outside of hardline anti piracy individuals who can't even stay consistent in their abiding by copyright law such as yourself who is willing to break it by backing up media against the EULA simply because you feel better about it having paid for it.

it's not much different thinking from the pirates who think "oh it's not avaialble in my country legally or it's a bad game or it's too expensive for what it is" and feel justified in downloading software and media as per piracy.

except for them in their country what they are doing is completely legal, where you if you get stopped at the US border/customs with that laptop with your media rips and back ups on your hard drive at the very least you are looking at getting your laptop confiscated.

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Hedon

Never once did I say I was better educated in this area than anyone. If you don't want to debate my points, that is fine. However, there is no need to spin our conversation, put words in people's mouths, insinuate or ignore the laws.

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treemonster

If you don't like valid forum discussions, why are you participating one. I merely pointed out that part of the increased portion a retailer gets is because of security/theft. In addition, I was pointing out that the 3% portion of the pie would be a larger 3% portion without piracy and shoplifting.

and i'm saying in the case ofpiracy it has little to no effect on profits for these companies because those are not sales they would have made if piracy did not exist. if anything there are a subset of pirates who pirate before they buy, so in those cases they gained sales they might not have otherwise gotten.

shoplifting on the other hand is entirely different from piracy. it is theft and is criminal pretty much everywhere. and entirely a different moral conversation depending on what is being stolen and the motivations behind that crime.

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Hedon

and i'm saying in the case ofpiracy it has little to no effect on profits for these companies because those are not sales they would have made if piracy did not exist. if anything there are a subset of pirates who pirate before they buy, so in those cases they gained sales they might not have otherwise gotten.

shoplifting on the other hand is entirely different from piracy. it is theft and is criminal pretty much everywhere. and entirely a different moral conversation depending on what is being stolen and the motivations behind that crime.

I think it's best we just agree to disagree to keep this on topic, and remain cool with each other ;)

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treemonster

Never once did I say I was better educated in this area than anyone. If you don't want to debate my points, that is fine. However, there is no need to spin our conversation, put words in people's mouths, insinuate or ignore the laws.

you said you took a class on copyright law and then said i was not well educated on teh subject matter. you said you had beenin law enforcement for 20 years. i have not put words in your mouth. i am not spinning anything, i am going by your own posts itt. saying you demonstrate other than having been formally educated on a subject based on your demonstration of knowledge on the subject should not be taken as a personal attack.

there's plenty of freely available information online about copyright laws in america and elsewhere, and ongoing media coverage of piracy through torrents and other means. so staying informed is not difficult.

anyways back to the actual topic here: i wonder what portion of sales on steam go to devs publishers and so on.i mean not their normal prices but those killer sales they have pretty often.

I think it's best we just agree to disagree to keep this on topic, and remain cool with each other ;)

i just like to discuss subjects. ask nagisan we disagree all the time here on neowin. no hard feelings bro. just because i have a different opinion than you doesn't mean i don't respect you :)

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