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designer/programmer ethics? just a discussion


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me and my business partner have built few websites for people some websites for big corps. but the thing that annoys my partner is they always change the design to how they want it... but how they want it is very ... hmm dated... not poor (well it would be by today's standards) but just old styled.

I am normally fine as long as it is semi respectable because all my work is server side so my work is as it should be (even though normal internet users wouldn't understand the magic of websites :p so the only time someone cares is if something goes wrong) either way i am not as bothered if i still get paid or get work with big names as its more advertising.

while my partner gets angry at the customers for messing with his work and he dosen't want us putting alot of the stuff on our portfolio as its just not great.

what do you think is more important? the respect of a good design and the proud feeling you get? or the money and the advertisement ? would you sacrifice your name for your next pay cheque?

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I don't worry about adding EVERY project to my portfolio. Some I never get to add because of NDAs and others.. I don't add because I don't approve of the design. It's not my site so whether or not I think a font is wrong or a color should be different.. in the end I have to realize that it is not my site. I am doing the work they hired me for and that is it.

It's easier for me because I'm not a designer. My clients come to me for their front and backend code, as their design is already done. But I definitely know the struggles that a designer can go through when their client is too damn stubborn to take advice from a designer (I mean, c'mon it's only his JOB!) and wants something that is most likely extremely HIDEOUS.

So I agree with not wanting to put pieces you are NOT proud of in your portfolio. Nothing wrong with having a choice on what you display on your own site.

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I don't worry about adding EVERY project to my portfolio. Some I never get to add because of NDAs and others.. I don't add because I don't approve of the design. It's not my site so whether or not I think a font is wrong or a color should be different.. in the end I have to realize that it is not my site. I am doing the work they hired me for and that is it.

It's easier for me because I'm not a designer. My clients come to me for their front and backend code, as their design is already done. But I definitely know the struggles that a designer can go through when their client is too damn stubborn to take advice from a designer (I mean, c'mon it's only his JOB!) and wants something that is most likely extremely HIDEOUS.

So I agree with not wanting to put pieces you are NOT proud of in your portfolio. Nothing wrong with having a choice on what you display on your own site.

cool so you would deffo trade your pride for pay :D same! i cant relate to my designer cause i just do what you do, so yea but or name is the same so i should agree with him in some ways and one guy made us work way over what his money was worth because he kept wanting the design changed..

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See, that's when you need to cut off a client. I had a client a couple of months ago that would constantly berate me during my unavailable hours (he would never remember that he is 6 hours ahead so when he's IMing me at 10AM.. it's 6AM for me and I am fast asleep!). No one wants to deal with someone being a complete dickwad. I came close to just telling him off after degrading me for the last time but knew it was NOT worth my time. Sent him an email stating that business was completed (which it was, he was just being a PITA about a small change that was already outside the scope of our contract) as I received his final payment and sent him packing.

Oddly enough he's contact me almost 6 more times since then for work--I refuse to do business with him. He is the type that threatens to reverse a charge if he doesn't get what he wants.

Do not do work that is not within the scope of your agreed payment and/or contract. You need to rewrite your contract(s) so that your clients only have an x amount of allotted hours for revisions and any more required can be purchased in blocks (1hr for $XXX, 3hrs for #XXX, etc.) This prevents you from going over budget and not even getting PAID for the work you're doing.

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See, that's when you need to cut off a client. I had a client a couple of months ago that would constantly berate me during my unavailable hours (he would never remember that he is 6 hours ahead so when he's IMing me at 10AM.. it's 6AM for me and I am fast asleep!). No one wants to deal with someone being a complete dickwad. I came close to just telling him off after degrading me for the last time but knew it was NOT worth my time. Sent him an email stating that business was completed (which it was, he was just being a PITA about a small change that was already outside the scope of our contract) as I received his final payment and sent him packing.

Oddly enough he's contact me almost 6 more times since then for work--I refuse to do business with him. He is the type that threatens to reverse a charge if he doesn't get what he wants.

Do not do work that is not within the scope of your agreed payment and/or contract. You need to rewrite your contract(s) so that your clients only have an x amount of allotted hours for revisions and any more required can be purchased in blocks (1hr for $XXX, 3hrs for #XXX, etc.) This prevents you from going over budget and not even getting PAID for the work you're doing.

wow he sounds like a tool, we wrote a contract for him that the work would be completed and he would pay us after completion and he had the option to make changes twice.... he took was very devious and asked like a small favour, like changing the font something thats nothing but he did this and did this and took the **** out of our generosity....

just out of interest where do you get your work from? i dont have enough time to due to education to hold open my business as a full time i just need jobs now and then but finding clients can sometimes be difficult O.o so how do you get yours?

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I am a developer so its hard to imagine what a designer feels when his design is ripped to shreds but I can relate to it. It used to annoy me when a site I coded to perfection is destroyed in the name of tweaking. But, that doesn't happen to me anymore. Once the work is done and out of my hands I don't care about it. If it stays intact and perfect it goes in to my portfolio. Else I don't mention it.

Simply put you can not handle it if you start caring about every design your clients destroy. There are way too many people who don't understand or appreciate perfection in work.

Most of my work comes from word of mouth. You would be surprised by the number of opportunities that can come out of taking the time to make your work perfect and error free. Client satisfaction is also important but there is a limit to that.

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I've recently went through a similar issue with a client... she wanted her website touching up, so i took it up on myself to make her really happy and gave her a full new design (AT NO EXTRA COST!!!) as her old site from the previous designer was extremely dated and ugly. The new design fit perfect with her company, but i got a snotty reply saying someone she works with said it looks like a 13 year old had done it and they weren't happy. I tried to rectify the problem for a while but it was clear this would be endless hours of hard work for someone i'd probably never please so i cut her off..

I've lost ?50 a month but if the working relationship isn't going to work then it wouldn't be worth the ?50.

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The customer's always right. While, they can be really annoying, the website is theirs, not yours - so it should be designed how they want it, not how you or your designer want it. When I get a client who wants changes made to the design that I particularly disagree with, I'll explain to them that in my professional opinion, it would be better to do it a different way - and even offer a 3rd way of doing it. Sometimes when I client says "Could you change x for y" they often just mean "I don't like x". The y is just an idea they've come up with that they themselves aren't totally keen on, and the client is often open to other ideas.

Tell your designer not to take it personally. He's paid to design websites for clients, he's not paid to create perfect artwork. His artistic opinion is important and it should be put forward in a professional way - but if a client doesn't like it, it's not your problem.

Edit; It's worth pointing out, you're not alone :laugh:

Edit again; This one is also relevant :laugh:

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Do not do work that is not within the scope of your agreed payment and/or contract. You need to rewrite your contract(s) so that your clients only have an x amount of allotted hours for revisions and any more required can be purchased in blocks (1hr for $XXX, 3hrs for #XXX, etc.) This prevents you from going over budget and not even getting PAID for the work you're doing.

If I didn't hate people who put things in bold red size 7 type, I would so do that here.

Contracts and scopes need clear definition.

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