• Sign in to Neowin Faster!

    Create an account on Neowin to contribute and support the site.

Sign in to follow this  

Xcode $5 on the mac app store?

Recommended Posts

PyX    140

I'm purely interested to see complaining about how Apple will be delivering future updates, even though I don?t know their plan.

Is that what you meant?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
.Neo    1,834

Is that what you meant?

How old are you exactly? 12?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PyX    140

How old are you exactly? 12?

Nice try to change the course of the discussion. :laugh:

Read what you wrote in the last pages and realize you?ve been complaining about Apple making us pay for minor updates when nobody except them know what?s going to happen. The solution is as simple as wait and see. If they charge, I?ll be glad to back you on this. Meanwhile this whole debate is pointless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
.Neo    1,834

Nice try to change the course of the discussion. :laugh:

Posting a reply like that isn't discussing anything.

Read what you wrote in the last pages and realize you?ve been complaining about Apple making us pay for minor updates when nobody except them know what?s going to happen. The solution is as simple as wait and see. If they charge, I?ll be glad to back you on this. Meanwhile this whole debate is pointless.

Yeah and you've been complaining over and over about having to need a credit card to access the App Store. That's your beef with Apple, this is mine. ;) And read my last reply: I already wrote there we'll have to wait and see. The underlying thing is that we see Apple charging us for just about anything right now (same discussion as FaceTime). Personally I don't think that's a very positive development.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Stetson    180

I don't mind explaining myself for the tenth time over: Currently there are two options 1) Get Xcode 4 through your developer account. 2) Get Xcode 4 through the App Store for ?4. What happens when Mac OS X Lion gets released, hopefully still with Xcode (v4.1) present on the Install DVD, and an update is released? I don't have access to a paid developer account, nor does the App Store give you access to updates when installing applications through some other means than the store. I'm not going to pay ?4 so I can receive the first minor update and the rest for free. In that case I end up paying for Mac OS X Lion + Xcode regardless.

Just because third party apps released so far can't integrate with the App Store when installed via other means doesn't mean that Apple themselves couldn't do this.

As far as Apple being charge-happy, if you notice they do this with things that are new features/functionality to an existing platform. They've claimed that it's due to accounting rules, maybe their interpretation is stricter than others'. They charged to unlock 802.11n on devices that didn't come with it activated/advertised, they've charged for iPod touch updates in the past, and I'm guessing that this is the same thing. Whether you think it's BS or not, it's not really anything new, and it's why it won't surprise me at all if it's free/included on the Lion DVD, with free updates (both to the Lion included version and App Store version).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
.Neo    1,834

Just because third party apps released so far can't integrate with the App Store when installed via other means doesn't mean that Apple themselves couldn't do this.

That's absolutely true. Maybe the Mac OS X Lion App Store will work differently from the Mac OS X Snow Leopard one and is able to detect things. Personally I think they should just push Xcode updates through Software Update, seems the easiest way. Never quite understood why that isn't the case and you're forced to download the entire DMG all over again with every update. :/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PyX    140

That's absolutely true. Maybe the Mac OS X Lion App Store will work differently from the Mac OS X Snow Leopard one and is able to detect things. Personally I think they should just push Xcode updates through Software Update, seems the easiest way. Never quite understood why that isn't the case and you're forced to download the entire DMG all over again with every update. :/

Back in the time of Xcode 1, they did push updates through Software Update.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
.Neo    1,834

Back in the time of Xcode 1, they did push updates through Software Update.

Really? :huh: When I first got my eMac (Mac OS X 10.3 Panther, wasn't that Xcode v1?) it took me about three years to realize I actually had to download a new DMG at Apple's developer site to get the latest update. I can honestly say I never saw an update for Xcode in Software Update or even a prompt a new version was released.

Come to think of it maybe the first time I installed Xcode was with Mac OS X Tiger. Can't really recall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PyX    140

Really? :huh: When I first got my eMac (Mac OS X 10.3 Panther, wasn't that Xcode v1?) it took me about three years to realize I actually had to download a new DMG at Apple's developer site to get the latest update. I can honestly swear I never saw an update for Xcode in Software Update or even a prompt a new version was released.

Yeah... even a lot of Xcode 3 updates were also available through Software Update. Last time I updated mine was like last summer.

The most recent ones were not there though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
.Neo    1,834

Yeah... even a lot of Xcode 3 updates were also available through Software Update.

Not on my end. I can definitely say Software Update never showed me any updates for Xcode on Mac OS X Tiger (Xcode 2) or Leopard (Xcode 3). :wacko: Do you have to run it first or something? Typically I only use Dashcode and Icon Builder from time to time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PyX    140

Not on my end. I can definitely say Software Update never showed me any updates for Xcode on Mac OS X Tiger (Xcode 2) or Leopard (Xcode 3).

Maybe it depends on the source of your installation package (Apple.com or OS X?s DVD). Like if you had an app installed before the App Store, the App Store won?t detect it half of the time. Or maybe you moved the folder somewhere else on your drive? If you move an iWork application outside of its folder, it nags you that there is an update when you start it up, and when you open Software Update, nada.

I didn?t do anything special to get my updates there... However, I remember that the updates were really big. I suspect it downloads the entire PKG and the uncompress it and install.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
amon91    41

I didn?t do anything special to get my updates there... However, I remember that the updates were really big. I suspect it downloads the entire PKG and the uncompress it and install.

Aside from OS updates, it seems that's how Apple does business. They just push out the whole thing, even if it's just a small fix.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PyX    140

I think they avoid a lot of problems doing that. Differential updates are way harder to manage and what if one of your files remain at the previous version? For a dev suite it can lead to unforgiveable bugs, for iTunes I don't see what's their problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
.Neo    1,834

I think they avoid a lot of problems doing that. Differential updates are way harder to manage and what if one of your files remain at the previous version? For a dev suite it can lead to unforgiveable bugs,

You don't see Apple push out entire Mac OS X Install DVDs through Software Update either when a new v10.x.x update is released. Using that logic they should.

for iTunes I don't see what's their problem.

Most of iTunes' files are pretty big (the executable alone is 33 MB) and have to be replaced as a whole. So in that case you wouldn't save that much by making update patches rather than replacing the whole thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PyX    140

You don't see Apple push out entire Mac OS X Install DVDs through Software Update either when a new v10.x.x update is released. Using that logic they should.

I believe they knew it was worth taking the time to make 400MB updates rather than 6GB updates... For 200MB applications, maybe it?s just not worth the effort. And for a dev suite, you?re better off reinstalling the whole thing to know everyone has the same files. A dev suite can be even more fragile than an OS.

Just speculating here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
.Neo    1,834
And for a dev suite, you?re better off reinstalling the whole thing to know everyone has the same files.

You think my copy is any different than yours? Somehow sending the files to the Netherlands instead of Canada brings forth changes to the applications? That would be a very interesting development.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PyX    140

Somehow sending the files to the Netherlands instead of Canada brings forth changes to the applications?

What are you talking about?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
.Neo    1,834

What are you talking about?

You seem to be under the impression that it's possible for one person to have a different application files than another. How would that happen exactly?

I also wouldn't know what makes the Xcode suite different than Mac OS X, iLife, iWork, Adobe CS, Final Cut Studio etc. that you think it needs to be replaced as a whole rather than just being patched.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PyX    140

You seem to be under the impression that it's possible for one person to have a different application files than another. How would that happen exactly?

I also wouldn't know what makes the Xcode suite different than Mac OS X, iLife, iWork, Adobe CS, Final Cut Studio etc. that you think it needs to be replaced as a whole rather than just being patched.

It depends how you?re rolling out your updates.

Photoshop CS5 for instance, is installed as a whole one time only, and then features are added or fixed one by one with patches. We?re far from Xcode here.

iLife and iWork have about 2-5 updates in their cycle and they?re distinct, separated applications. You can detect the app versions very easily, and update the apps that need it.

Mac OS X has both types of updates.

Xcode works a bit differently in the sense that it has a bunch of upgrade paths possible :

Xcode 4.0.1 to Xcode 4.2

Xcode 4.0.2 to Xcode 4.2

Xcode 4.1.0 to Xcode 4.2

Xcode 4.1.1 to Xcode 4.2

Xcode 4.1.2 to Xcode 4.2

etc.

How would you manage all this? There?s 2 possibilities :

- Detect app versions and make one upgrade pkg per upgrade path (hard and long to do and you can forget a few files)

- A system that compares every possible file in the /Developer/ folder to the most recent one on the server (server-heavy but you can?t forget any file)

I believe they didn?t have the choice to have a better system for OS X because it?s way too big for the majority (every OS X user would have to download a 6 GB file and install the whole thing again? that makes no sense compared to 4GB voluntary downloads) and you can update a few key components in OS X without affecting others. A development suite would be totally different.

When I update a website for instance, I don?t want my customer to call me for bugs. So instead of remembering which files I?ve changed (that?s what I was doing first), I simply update the whole thing and I never got a problem with updating this way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
.Neo    1,834
Xcode works a bit differently in the sense that it has a bunch of upgrade paths possible

I don't see how that's any different from other applications. The developer tools largely exist out of distinct separate applications as well. You can update those with separate packages or combined. To tackle the problem of being able to upgrade from every older version to the latest you simply have a combo updater, which is already how most updates are handled today.

Again, I fail to see why Dashcode for example would be a special case compared to Pages or iPhoto when it comes to receiving updates. Like you mentioned before: Apparently we did get developer tools updates through Software Update in the past, so now suddenly this isn't possible anymore?

you can update a few key components in OS X without affecting others. A development suite would be totally different.

The exact same thing applies to the applications part of the developer tools and no it isn't anything different at all. Updating Xcode.app doesn't mean you have to update Dashcode or IconBuilder as well. I have no idea why you keep assuming it does. Next to that the DMG is filled with support documents and examples as well, those definitely don't need to be updated every single time.

When I update a website for instance, I don?t want my customer to call me for bugs. So instead of remembering which files I?ve changed (that?s what I was doing first), I simply update the whole thing and I never got a problem with updating this way.

That analogy makes no sense at all when it comes to application updates. Also there's a huge difference between a website and a 4,6 GB developer suite.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
the evn show    138

How would you manage all this? There?s 2 possibilities :

- Detect app versions and make one upgrade pkg per upgrade path (hard and long to do and you can forget a few files)

- A system that compares every possible file in the /Developer/ folder to the most recent one on the server (server-heavy but you can?t forget any file)

Git pull? rsync? hg update? This has been a solved issue for years, and it's easier on Mac OS X than Windows where Application bundles largely eliminate the need for binary diffs like those used on Windows.

A development suite would be totally different.

It's not any more complex than Final Cut Studio which does partial updates just fine.

When I update a website for instance, I don?t want my customer to call me for bugs. So instead of remembering which files I?ve changed (that?s what I was doing first), I simply update the whole thing and I never got a problem with updating this way.

That sounds like bad process to me. Post your updated code to the version control server, have the server pull it down. You should have automated things like database updates/imports/server restarts/log cycling/etc. already so deploying an update should just be something like "rake deploy" (or whatever you use for build management). Even for simple 5 page sites, it's basically free to use SVN. Make a local respositoy, check out a local copy, and when you're happy with everything: commit it to the local copy and have the server check it out. If you're feeling extra lazy you can use a 5-line shell script to automate the works.

As an added bonus it means that if your client changes files behind your back (ie: uploads images) you can have those added to the repository on the server before you start work so you never accidentally stomp on their changes.

Also there's a huge difference between a website and a 4,6 GB developer suite.

A sufficiently large website is probably harder to keep running because you end up with dependencies outside of your build chain. Pushes are also one-way with xcode: from apple to the end user where as a large site will live data, developer working data, test data, and old versions of live data (ie: from the last deploy) that needs to be kept in sync. Given a choice I'd rather be responsible for handling Xcode deployment than lastfm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
.Neo    1,834

I'm still a bit mystified why I've never seen a single developer tools update in Software Update in all those years. I've always had Xcode installed on Mac OS X Tiger through Mac OS X Snow Leopard on two eMacs, three iMacs and one Mac Pro. :/

Can't say for sure I installed the developer tools when the first eMac was still running Mac OS X Panther.

A sufficiently large website is probably harder to keep running because you end up with dependencies outside of your build chain. Pushes are also one-way with xcode: from apple to the end user where as a large site will live data, developer working data, test data, and old versions of live data (ie: from the last deploy) that needs to be kept in sync. Given a choice I'd rather be responsible for handling Xcode deployment than lastfm

Obviously if you're talking about websites of those proportions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PyX    140

That sounds like bad process to me. Post your updated code to the version control server, have the server pull it down. You should have automated things like database updates/imports/server restarts/log cycling/etc. already so deploying an update should just be something like "rake deploy" (or whatever you use for build management). Even for simple 5 page sites, it's basically free to use SVN. Make a local respositoy, check out a local copy, and when you're happy with everything: commit it to the local copy and have the server check it out. If you're feeling extra lazy you can use a 5-line shell script to automate the works.

Sounds like a lot of trouble compared to a drag and drop that takes me basically one second. Don't worry, if they upload files or anything, I have a special folder /uploads/ that I never change myself.

--

So if it's none of my reasons mentioned, why would Apple ever push the complete package all the time? To make fun of us, or they DO have a reason?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
the evn show    138

Sounds like a lot of trouble compared to a drag and drop that takes me basically one second. Don't worry, if they upload files or anything, I have a special folder /uploads/ that I never change myself.

I press CMD+Shift+D and it "just works". The computer can be as complicated as it wants to be so long as from my perspective it remains trivial. That's the nice thing about working on a Mac: you can automate all this stuff so your workflow becomes more streamlined AND you get to follow best practices.

Whether you're working on relatively trivial sites (ie: what you're describing sounds like it doesn't have a whole lot of user-manageable content) or something that uses half a dozen application, caching, database, and load balancing servers there's very little reason not to use some sort of automated build/deployment system and some very good reasons to use one.

To stay on topic, I certainly wouldn't expect Apple to imitate the process style you describe for something that 'actually matters'.

So if it's none of my reasons mentioned, why would Apple ever push the complete package all the time? To make fun of us, or they DO have a reason?

You're asking people to guess at the motives for a third party: why not email them? They clearly have the infrastructure to patch Xcode via software update, they've done it in the past. Why they don't use it isn't clear. I'm reasonably sure it's not an arbitrary decision (that's not really Apple's MO) but I can't think of a good reason not to use it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
greenwizard88    622

There is a free version of Visual Studio called "Express," but it's mainly just for those who need Visual Basic and not everything else.

That's funny, because I used the "express" edition of C# to write an application, which I'm currently selling and making money off of.

I'm pretty sure there's VB, C#, C++, and VB.net editions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.