DocM Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 The shuttle Endeavour arrived at ISS on its last mission to discover tile damage on its heat shield. The damage once again seems to be caused by pieces of insulating foamf shed by the external fuel tank during launch. Images of some damaged tiles with measurements below. Their depth is unknown, but laser scans could give an idea later. No decision yet as to if repairs will have to be made. Map Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neoadorable Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 man, she's literally falling apart...do these foam parts fall back to earth or are they still in orbit? i tell you, i spend time thinking about all that debris up there...it's really depressing to think that we could build a 20 bill discovery class ship to go to Mars and she'll get punctured by someone's freaking toolkit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+John. Subscriber¹ Posted May 19, 2011 Subscriber¹ Share Posted May 19, 2011 Oohf oh dear. Here's hoping everything goes ok. Too much at stake here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neoadorable Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 yes, definitely. let's hope this can be tolerated for the return flight. if not, i'd say they need to spend an extra week up there for repairs, minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Growled Member Posted May 19, 2011 Member Share Posted May 19, 2011 You would think that NASA would have licked this problem by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocM Posted May 19, 2011 Author Share Posted May 19, 2011 It can't be fixed because it's a result of putting a spacecraft sidesaddle relative to cryogenic tanks. In this arrangement foam insulation will fall off or, absent the foam, ice will fall off. In either case an uncovered heat shield will be damaged, and a cover would be so heavy as to significantly reduce payload. This has been a problem since day-one of the shuttle program, and a big reason why it should have been retired long ago. Solution: use spacecraft mounted at the top of the rocket stack. Extra points for a capsule because their heat shield is also covered/protected by their service module. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neoadorable Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 yes, this is a chronic issue with the shuttle design. only way to fix it is a total redraw, in which case you might as well retire the existing fleet as Doc noted and as is being done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocM Posted May 21, 2011 Author Share Posted May 21, 2011 Besides poor design there is bad large program management. Not reported in most of the press is that this is a "hurricane tank," meaning that it was finished years ago in NASA's Louisiana facility then stored in a building that was later damaged by (drumroll) Katrina. Part of the buildings roof failed and fell on the tank, damaging both the foam and breaking a structural stringer. Repairs were made, it was stored a few more years, then used on this mission. I'll leave it to you guys to comment on the wisdom involved in these decisions. Mine would get me banned. SpaceFlightNow reports the remaining concerns focus on image 600_2-001. KENNEDY SPACE CENTER, FL--The Endeavour astronauts will use an instrumented boom on the end of the shuttle's robot arm early Saturday to make a close-up, "focused" inspection of a gouge in a heat shield tile on the belly of the orbiter that was spotted during final approach to the space station, NASA managers said Friday.LeRoy Cain, chairman of NASA's Mission Management Team, said shuttle pilot Gregory Johnson would oversee computer-assisted maneuvers to put the arm under the shuttle's right side to take high-resolution photos and laser scans of the damage site. The data will be downlinked to NASA's Damage Assessment Team, or DAT, to determine if Endeavour can safely re-enter Earth's atmosphere as is or whether more analysis or repairs might be needed. Engineers suspect the former, but the inspection was ordered to make sure. > During Endeavour's final approach to the space station Wednesday, the crew of the station photographed the heat shield tiles on the shuttle's belly during a now-routine back-flip maneuver directly below the lab complex. Image analysts spotted seven "areas of interest" that required additional analysis. All of those were cleared for re-entry as is with one exception: a relatively deep gouge in a tile between Endeavour's right-side main landing gear door and a smaller door that covers a liquid-oxygen feed line port. "Ultimately, we determined that we're going to go do a focused inspection to get some more data on this particular site," Cain said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaze_Zewi Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 /_\ |U| |S| |A| /_\ ||| Long live the shuttle age. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocM Posted May 21, 2011 Author Share Posted May 21, 2011 Meh - Russia copied it with Buran, flew it once, realized the "issues" and ended their program. We should have ended our Shuttle program in the early 1990's, and it will end with Atlantis this summer. Back then NASA was all ready to fly the HL-20 (now updated & private as Dream Chaser) and a larger version the HL-40. Those were far more practical, had launch escape systems and were affordable to operate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryoken Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Besides poor design there is bad large program management. Not reported in most of the press is that this is a "hurricane tank," meaning that it was finished years ago in NASA's Louisiana facility then stored in a building that was later damaged by (drumroll) Katrina. Part of the buildings roof failed and fell on the tank, damaging both the foam and breaking a structural stringer. Repairs were made, it was stored a few more years, then used on this mission. I'll leave it to you guys to comment on the wisdom involved in these decisions. Mine would get me banned. SpaceFlightNow reports the remaining concerns focus on image 600_2-001. All of that would matter if Every single other tank ever used for a Shuttle Launch hadn't also shed foam :p It's a design flaw, and there isn't anything that can be done about it.. And the tank surviving a hurricane and the like had no effect on it.. And with all that being said, It's good they know about it, but really I don't care much.. if you told the guys going up that there was a 50% chance it would be a one way trip you'd still have a line up.. They know the risks far better than us and still want to do it.. that's good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocM Posted May 21, 2011 Author Share Posted May 21, 2011 That's fine as long as you never plan on opening space up to civilian & commercial exploitation. What's not fine even with the current passengers is lising crews yo bad design and even worse management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scaramonga Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Good luck coming home lol, your gonna need it. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neoadorable Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 they'll be fine. as Doc pointed out, this is a "calculated risk" that NASA knew about well in advance. those guys just want to get the shuttle over with so they can move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryoken Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 That's fine as long as you never plan on opening space up to civilian & commercial exploitation. What's not fine even with the current passengers is lising crews yo bad design and even worse management. NASA has had no plans in ever using the shuttles for that, so it's a non-issue. The Shuttle is the NASA ( and affiliate Space Organizations ) Personel and Scientists.. Anyone who ever considered the shuttle "safe" obviously doesn't understand what's going on.. The Shuttle was always a high-risk vehicle.. The fact that we have only lost two shuttles is an amazing achievement.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey B. Veteran Posted May 21, 2011 Veteran Share Posted May 21, 2011 man, she's literally falling apart...do these foam parts fall back to earth or are they still in orbit? i tell you, i spend time thinking about all that debris up there...it's really depressing to think that we could build a 20 bill discovery class ship to go to Mars and she'll get punctured by someone's freaking toolkit! the foam pieces fall off in the first few seconds of liftoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thechronic Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Hopefully the issue will be resolved quickly. If i remember rightly, insulation foam caused the Columbia disaster. On a lighter note, there are few things more spectacular than the launch of a Shuttle. I would love to roast my chestnuts under one of those babies (No Homo). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryoken Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 the foam pieces fall off in the first few seconds of liftoff. Not to mention the tank and boosters both fall off before they reach space.. Fall back to earth, and are re-used.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocM Posted May 21, 2011 Author Share Posted May 21, 2011 The external fuel tank is not re-used. The SRB casings are re-used, but at a high recovery & refurbishment cost. Their ammonium perchlorate oxidizer also poses a problem both in terms of production and use because it ends up in ground water - the EPA is actually preparing standards. The other problem is purely because the SRB's are solids - you can't shut them off once lit. This severely limits any opportunities for crew escape - not that the shuttle has any such opportunities in the first 2 minutes of flight. It doesn't. See Challenger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thechronic Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 It doesn't. See Challenger. The sad thing about that is that they believe the crew were alive until they hit the water, apparently the impact killed them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocM Posted May 22, 2011 Author Share Posted May 22, 2011 This is true. Want to really get mad? The scenario of a mid-air breakup had been thought of during development, and it was suggested that the crew capsule get parachutes. This was not done to give the shuttle a greater payload. Also, the drop-test vehicle Enterprise had blow-out panels and ejection seats, but these too were omitted on later birds. The ejection system was actually developed for Gemini, which had ejection seats good for exits up to 14 miles high. On exit the crewmembers seat would deploy a ballute (balloon + parachute) which stabilize the astronaut, both protecting and decelerating him. This would be discarded and a parachute deployed at a lower altitude. Later ballute concepts would surround the astronaut and be capable of a full space re-entry, something Columbia may have found useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Patriot Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 edit: nevermind, already addressed in another post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim K Global Moderator Posted May 22, 2011 Global Moderator Share Posted May 22, 2011 Meh - Russia copied it with Buran, flew it once, realized the "issues" and ended their program. not to mention the break up of the Soviet Union. Though outwardly similar, the Buran and US Shuttles are mechanically different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocM Posted May 22, 2011 Author Share Posted May 22, 2011 But the operations were similar enough to reveal the costs vs. benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim K Global Moderator Posted May 22, 2011 Global Moderator Share Posted May 22, 2011 But the operations were similar enough to reveal the costs vs. benefit. True enough, and the fall of the Soviet Union was the final nail in the coffin. So to speak. There are rumors that Russia may try to start their shuttle program back up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts