Neowin.net

You are not the only one who hates it when large companies abuse their power.

A message to the Neowin Administrators:
Microsoft doesn't own you. Stop acting like it does.

You're absolutely right, they don't. Microsoft owns the updates.
If AutoPatcher didn't distribute updates maybe we wouldn't be here wondering about this problem, but it does, and apparently some idiot in MS has a problem with it. Whether it's right or wrong is debatable, but it's MS' patches, it's MS' decision.

no its not their decision. they can not force the project to end. neowin should look at itself in disgust that they allowed microsoft to bully them.

the project should continue without Microsoft seal of aproval.

Okay werejag, you can pay the legal fees once neowin gets sued.

IT'S NOT REALLY DEBATEABLE oops sorry caps, legally MS can do as they want, they OWN the updates and can do what they want with them.

LMAO they can quite easily stop the project they own all the updates, if it is kept going they can be sued by MS and have to close the site down, all i can say is don't even try do battle with MS legal, noone ever seems to win especially in this case as autopatcher has absolutley no case

I agree! I think we should rally against Microsoft and be strong. Don't let the big boys bully us little boys.

Neowin, I'm sorry, but I'm disgusted at the way you handled this. Shutting down the Autopatcher forums immediately, and shutting down the project. How do you think the people who were in charge of the project felt? All their hard work has been put to rest. The least you could do is stand strong and tell Microsoft, "we're sorry, but we won't let you bully us." At least keep the forums.

Together, we can come up with a solution to this. This isn't the end of the world. We're NOT going to let stingy Microsoft stop this terrific project!

*nods, determined*

Let us know when you've finished your cape.

Why do you believe they are right? How is it illegal to maintain a local copy of updates? Does this mean every corporation that does the same is now also required to download updates solely from Microsoft each time they reinstall or add a new system? Does it mean that slipstreamed copies of Windows are illegal?

Microsoft should have released SP3 long ago, so users wouldn't have to make their own slipstreamed CDs or use tools like autopatcher.

actually go do some research man eaheaheah, u can slipstream a cd using all the tools available from microsoft and there is nothing wrong with that, i just belive they are right cause it would be so easy for autopatcher to contain malicious code added from someone as it is mirrored in so many places it just isnt funny and u can still get updates just mean u have to get them from windows update doesnt stop u from keeping a copy of them

read MS licensing restrictions i am sure you will find all the answers you want, but the truth is even if MS give somethign away for free it does not mean everyone else can, it's like if MS installed the free copy of acrobat in windows, they'd get their asses sued

There is a flaw in that logic concerning Apple. Every few months Apple releases an all inclusive update to their OS so there is no need for an auto patcher. And even some of their minor security patches include all minor updates that have happened since the large update. Even Microsoft's Mac team is using this philosophy in their releases of Office. Their Office 11.3.5 update included SP1 (11.1.0), SP2 (11.2.0) and SP3 (11.3.0) and all minor updates came after them. My question is why doesn't the Windows team do this? it has been over 3 years since SP2 for XP came out. We need a new SP.

Like i said on the autopatcher.com website, all corporations should bill Microsoft for the waste of bandwidth that is being used for all PCs to be updated using auto updates. I work doing computer support for a satellite campus to a graduate university and our internet connection is bad on a good day, we have a 1.5Mbps connection but when all the students came in last night and tonight with all their laptops, the most recent MS updates just bogged down our network. There must have been more than 100 students each night and that I was getting a 32kbps download speed at times (that is worse than a 33.6kbps modem). You are talking 15kbps per laptop of shared bandwidth for each laptop if they were downloading MS updates. Maybe if Microsoft starts to see bills for use of bandwidth from a lot of companies, we might just see some changes around there concerning all inclusive updates.

Has anyone seen Microsoft's excuse for an "auto patcher? It is a 2.8GB iso file that only covered August 14th's security patches and includes patches for Vista, Vista x64, XP, XP x64, 2003, 2003 x64, 2003 iTanium, and all variants of Win 2000 in up to 36 different languages. It does not include any previous updates and does not include any of the Office security patches released that same day. I don't know about you, but at my work, we only support XP and speak only one language so why would we want to download this all inclusive patch for more than 10 variants of windows we do not use and in 35 languages we do not speak? Like I said, waste of bandwidth.

So everyone start calculating how much it costs to waste bandwidth updating windows their way and send your bills to Microsoft today.

AutoPatcher violates the TOS, that we were able to endorse the redistribution of the free updates via AutoPatcher for as long as 4 years without Microsoft intervention is a feat in itself.

We have no choice on the matter.

What, they were charging for the autopatcher? Would it "violate" the TOS if you switched over to Linux?

Oh horse ****. I would have politely said "Sure, right away." and then not have done what you guys did. Autopatcher makes no monetary gain, or any thing else, it's just like the tweaks, patches, and everything else out there for Windows. Only difference is it is MS updates being compiled by a little development team. Hoodaha.

I'm sorry but Neowin was just definitely served a big "Do what we say or else" by Microsoft. And no, I don't care about the TOS EULA or what have you those things become damn null and void on individual cases like this. Also, along with that this is will be hopefully a big mistake for Microsoft, and I hope that team fights them.

And it didn't cease any thing autopatcher will just go deeper and underground. Unfortunately this will just make it harder for people to aquire it.

I don't even ****ing use Autopatcher.

Internet Tough Guy FTW!!

Are you volunteering to pay for the attorney fees?

Let me guess... you've never even seen what it costs to hire an attorney, let alone take the case all the way to a hearing, right?

Then why are you 'fighting the fight' here in the comment space? It's pretty apparent Neowin isn't pleasing you, which is why you're so anxious to take a bite out of the staff and the way they do things, but why on a topic you shouldn't even care about?

You must be really, really bored.

Ha! Man, that comment came out of left field......

Err, yes....did you not see the Microsoft Legal part?
If they didn't, there may not be a neowin.

You know, I've yet to see an ignored cease and desist amount to anything. If the legal department had any real merit, then they would just go ahead with the lawsuit (lawyers get paid by the hour). Since they don't, they resort to these shady "threats" against individuals depending on fear to get what they want. There is no legal grounds for the concept of cease and desists.

Microsoft DOESN'T want to go to court, because most judges would either dismiss this or maybe even rule against Microsoft therefore setting a precedent. The reason being that Microsoft allowed it go on for 4 years. What's changed? Once AutoPatcher proves they don't profit and prove they've never distributed malicious code and prove they've done it for 4 years, then Microsoft is just saying "well maybe they will do something bad one day". Judges laugh at that sort of circumstantial speculative nonsense.

Look at The Consumerist or even The Pirate Bay, they get hit with cease and desists EVERY DAY and nothing ever happens because they call all these bluffs and the lawyers sometimes even send apology letters when they get called on their bluff (because they know cease and desists are full of crap, and some of them are classy enough to respect those who actually UNDERSTAND their rights).

Now what Neowin is really afraid of is losing Microsoft's "favor" and that's completely different. If you are beholden to an emperor...

Neowin has been shut down before due to a C&D to their hosting provider. So I guess you can't claim that it doesn't happen.

No lawsuit has ever succeeded where a warning was not first given.

If you have no idea how the legal system works, please keep your comments to yourself.

So you're saying if you murder someone tomorrow, you only need to be warned first? And that if you comply with the warning, you get off scot-free? Sounds like you really know how this "legal system" works. No, if you have EVIDENCE, you can arrest or serve summons to someone. Without EVIDENCE, you can only THREATEN people and that works as long as people continue to cow to those threats. Again, I point out facts like The Pirate Bay and The Consumerist. They have NEVER cowed to any cease & desists (TPB actually posts all of them online) and has anything happened to them? NO!

I know you will now bring up the raid on TPB, and guess what - the raid turned out to be an unlawful political maneuver by an overzealous police chief (pressured by the USA's goons) and they were back online by the end of the week!

Sounds like the hosting provider COWED to a legal threat, with no legal basis. That is no different... now did the hosting provider get taken to the court of law and lost a legal case where a judge ruled that Neowin had to be shut down? No!

The Pirate Bay doesn't actually host illegal content, only metafiles (.torrent files). That means that technically, they're not breaking the law. AutoPatcher hosts and distributes patches that is the intellectual property of Microsoft; therefore, Microsoft is within their right to enforce a cease-and-desist notice.

I second that...minus the the M$. What is Microsoft's definition of using Firefoxin this case? IETab?

I think they mean through the download center, not Windows Update!

I'm not so sure about that:

People respecting Microsoft? I thought you were extint in the wild.

People respecting Microsoft are hardly a minority.

Perhaps he meant thinking people?

What site are you talking about RanCorX2?

I can't speak for him, but my guess is that he means this site:

http://thehotfixshare.net/board/index.php?act=home

No, it allowed for illegal versions of Windows to be updated.

They don't care about bandwidth, it's not a problem.

Autopatcher was okay for ancient installs of XP on your parents computer, but mostly pointless with the amount of broadband about now.

The guys did good work, but it's not a huge loss.

It just amazes me that some people always think in a negative aspect. I'm not saying you personally, but Autopatcher was a great tool for upgrading OFFICIAL copies of Windows. As many computers as I have built for people over the years, and in the area I live in where broadband is not highly available, a lot of these people still exist on a modem connection. This is where Autopatcher came into play, I could either put the whole Autopatcher update pack on a CD or portable HD, and update their machine entirely from a disk. I dare someone to log on to the Windows Update site and literally try to choke on all the updates from a OFFICIAL OEM SP1 Windows XP CD fresh install, from a dial-up modem. Of course you could slipstream updates onto the disk, but it was much easier to install from a fresh format, then execute the Autopatcher file onto the system. Sure & hell beats dealing with the Microsoft Update site on a 56K modem connection. Also, I am kinda wondering if this is yet another marketing tactic ploy from the Microsoft Marketing Team, to try to make people forget about Windows XP all together, and throw on that new operating system of their's.

This was to be expected over a matter of time. I would like to give a huge thanks to the personnel involved with Autopatcher. It really is ashame that Microsoft waited so long, just to take away all the hard work.

Last edited by Optix Illusion on 29 Aug 2007 - 14:49

And those same Bad Guys who "could" would find their MD5 hashes don't match. So any torrenting wouldn't use their dodgy files. So noone would get it. So your tallking bollocks.

Oh, well, back to using the oh-so-secure windizupdate.com as WU gives me the 100% CPU crap on my XP installation.

They mean the WGA downloads - there's a genuine plugin that works for downloads from the download center in Firefox.

The IETab plugin is your best bet for actually using Windows/Microsoft Update webpages within Fx directly.

That's not what they said, even if it was what they meant.

Agreed.

I found Autopatcher to be a great way to get rare hotfixes/patches that I've never seen show up on WU (especially for XP!. I have a large render farm that I like to keep updated, and Autopatcher was very useful in keeping bandwidth to a minimum, yet keeping all of them running smoothly.

I hope someone else can pick this up in your place.

It might help if there was case to be made first.

It should not be that difficult to see that providing patches for someone elses product is a legally dubious activity...

I 100% agree with you. Somebody needs to stick up to these big corporations and refuse to do what they say just because they are threatening a lawsuit. A lot of the time, I doubt they would even actually file the lawsuit to begin with. And even if they did, there are tons time of circumstances where they wouldn't even have a case.

That's what the service packs are for...but they don't come out as often.

Seems to me like Neowin is Microsofts B***.. and this has to stop.. I will donate $300.00 to the Neowin Legal fund..

...and you have my bow...

Neowins ad revenue plus your $300.00 bonus Vs. Lawyers with billions at their disposal

Think about that

because it's such a complicated process...

you do realise that even after sp3 there will be updates?

You can already make images with a Microsoft Product it's called WDS and RIS, couple this with a WSUS 3.0 or SMS 2003 or SCCM 2007 - Worrying about the time necessary to apply updates is a thing of the past.

AutoPatcher never encouraged piracy - it simply bundled all updates into an easy to use and convenient package. If there are concerns about piracy then Microsoft should work with the team and come up with a solution (like forcing WGA to install, or whatever).

Microsoft does NOT have to deal with all patches redistributor. Microsoft already gives them for free to who ever goes to their Windows Update web site.

And YES, AP does encourage piracy by circumventing WGA wich is anti-piracy software method.

Like it or not, you must deal with it.

Pip'

AutoPatcher never encouraged piracy, in fact any requests for help with the tool using a pirated copy of Windows was replied with a message stating we couldn't help.

AutoPatcher is (was?) a legitimate tool to help Windows Users - it even included the option of installing WGA so I think you should STFU until you know what you're talking about.

Encourage piracy? maybe not. Help pirates? of course it does, you can't deny that. If AP had installed WGA before any updates were installed then no updates installed if WGA failed, then AP probably would have been allowed to continue, there only doing this now because they think it might get a few more Vista sales.

It does NOT encourage piracy - it never has and never will. I'm sure what you mean is that it facilitates piracy - that is of course true but that is a very different point to the one you actually made. I don't know why you're so against the AP project and what reason you could have to be "glad" that it has been shutdown because it doesn't seem justified. You might oppose the way it can be used by pirates to get around WGA but surely it would be better for the AP project to change to accommodate that rather than shutting down altogether? AP is very useful to a LOT of people.

PS - I don't use it myself but I can see the merit to it.

I see that some ppl are still angry when bad stuff are said about their precious software. That's so sad to read,... Well anyway, Ap is offering the option to install or not to install WGA? If they were in good faith, they would have made it a pre required installation.

Pip'

I'm angered by the FUD you're spreading. AutoPatcher wasn't "You pirate Windows? Come use our tool!" as you're suggesting.

Yes WGA was optional, but Antonis contacted a Microsoft representative when WGA came out and was told this was perfectly acceptable. And I know that a non-trivial portion of the AP user base were probably pirates, but just because you can use a hammer to kill people instead of hammering in nails doesn't mean that hammers should be banned [/probably-worthless-analogy]

In fact it is. ... Neowin always been firdidding talks about warez download, piracy website, copyright infregment and such ...

But why in the hell did they let AP users the choice NOT to install WGA as it's CLEARLY the way out to pirate Microsfoft's WindowsXP operating system?

Pip'

When WGA first came out Antonis spoke to somebody at MS who said that what was happening was fine and that WGA need not be implemented.

Today MS Legal has decided to shut the project down for whatever reason with no warning and seemingly no offer of compromise.

IANA Official Team Member, but having spoken with several people involved this is how it came down.

You can still find the August cores and updates (and that also includes the new "OfficePatcher" on the usual download sites...

Downloading now, while I still can

Well said.

I agree. What needs to happen is the community needs to ask for MS to allow it to continue rather than going ahead anyway.

Last edited by M2Ys4U on 29 Aug 2007 - 16:54

Great post. Microsoft has more control than people care to admit, but that's the way it is. If you don't like their rules, feel free to use a different operating system. I've gotten too sick of arguing with people that think they own their copies of Windows XP software and can do anything on it they want because they shelled out 300 bucks for it. I'm not saying that argument applies in this specific thread, but the thinking before you speak methodology would be truly nice.

This is true but many people are angry that Microsoft was well aware of AutoPatcher for 4 years and suddenly wants to shut it off now. Clearly they have something similar planned themselves.

Dear Draje,

Read the TOS and understand why MS did this.

Yours

Draje:

Such hostility. If this is a "breaking point" for you switch to Mac, Linux, or any other non-Microsoft operating system and calm down.

How about you politely ask them to reconsider.

Abusing them is much less likely to garner any sort of support.

They will always find a way. This only inconveniences those of us (IT, sysadmins, etc.) who actually got some benefit from Autopatcher.

Yeah, because these silly kids should spend their time trolling.

If they did, they'd lose 90% of their "customers". Everyone knows the popularity of autopatcher was due to people using it to patch pirated copies.

Windows Update was and is the only safe, secure, easy and legal way to download patches for Windows. Anyone who says otherwise is just making excuses.

I know that, and i understand, all i'm saying is it would be nice if they could.

I realize that Microsoft has no choice but to stop them, however saying otherwise is not making excuses, windows update is a **** poor solution to patching windows, updating to SP2 via windows update VS downloading it seperately from a Microsoft site is FAR faster than using actual windows update to patch your OS.

Say what you will it's too bad this piece of software has been stopped.

OK, if this is the case, than you try "choking" on Windows Updates from a ORIGINAL OEM copy of Windows XP SP1 fresh install, from a 56k modem connection. I bet you would yank your hair out, after the first day of downloads. That is just one of many examples. If the Autopatcher Team could compile all the updates into one .exe file every few months, or month, than you would certainly think that Microsoft has the same capability.

So you gonna pay the legal fees for neowin right? Btw this has nothing to do with ms stealing money from us and OEM version of Vista Home Premium is only $110 not bad I would say.

If you don't like the price, don't buy the software. Last time I checked, there were no laws forcing people to buy Microsoft products.

Why would you need to download all the updates twenty times? I would have thought somebody who works in IT would think "ahh never mind, i'll just download what updates I need and just make a small batch file which would take me all of two minutes". Failing that you could just keep an XP disc up to date using nlite with all the updates slipstreamed.

Contacting MS is a good idea.

https://support.microsoft.com/common/survey...WS=mscomukform1

No, I can't (and nor can a couple of people I know also with proper legit Windows) because of the 100% CPU fault that is still around. Admittedly I can use MBSA / Offline Update but they can't. Every month I'd pop by with the latest AP updates on my USB stick and bam! done in one run without having to even go online.

What would be better is contacting Microsoft Directly and politely asking them to reconsider: https://support.microsoft.com/common/survey...WS=mscomukform1

I've received two DMCA take-down notices for the torrent tracker. I'm assuming at this point it's not a hoax.

What I don't get is how they can send a DMCA take-down notice for a collection of files that they themselves freely distribute. And it is certainly possible for third parties to send take-down notices without the knowledge or consent of the party they are supposedly representing, so it is still possible that it could be a hoax, however unlikely.

Even though they freely distribute the patches, they retain the rights to say who can distribute the patches.

This is true, however I'm sure it wouldn't have progressed this far if it were a hoax.

most exploits are directed towards people on a 24/7 broadband connection. spam bots aren't so useful on a dialup.

Microsoft already has tools that meet the requirements of Autopatcher. The clear difference is that the updates you place on your own central server come from Microsoft Servers; Autopatcher cannot with 100% certainty claim that the patches that it provides are safe.

WSUS 3.0 and SMS 2003 and SCCM 2007

Oh right, on top of that you don't mind investing "a bit of money" in Windows 2003 Server and Microsoft SQL server just to get WSUS 2003 running, right?

Jesus christ people - get some realism in what you're trying offer people as a substitute.

Just like everybody else you did not even respond to his secure comments. Autopatcher could be a great way to spread a trojan. If that ever happened microsoft would be blammed not the autopatcher team.

Actually the AP team can show that the patches are genuine - they're still digitally signed by MS!

WSUS 3.0 doesn't require SQL Server. It runs just fine with the "Windows Database" and if you really want to install it on XP you can by doing a little bit of tweaking..

From how you sound in most of your posts you never really liked Neowin anyway. So why are you soo mad now?

Actualy, the pirates do use Windows Update. In case you hadn't noticed, the pirates pwned WGA a long time ago, and still do.

People used AutoPatcher because it was very convenient.
Ah, well, there's still Nlite.

LOL.

Let's see how long it is before you STOP posting about XP. Because I'm sure you'll never switch, you'll just stay with Windows.

I can't see what the big deal is anyway to be honest.

If it turns underground, it simply won't be that visible anymore. It means more people miss out. In the end, Autopatcher is dead.
(underground movement would also make it warez and then we wouldn't be able to discuss it on neowin)

Last edited by billyea on 29 Aug 2007 - 21:24

I completely forgot to mention that if it went underground then that is what would happen. That was my point in bringing that up and I forgot to add that in But I can blame that on memory issues lately caused by a nerve condition. So I'm all good

I'm sure someone out there is already looking at the things being said about what Autopatcher may have done wrong to make this happen and they'll use that to make their own similar piece of software. Either it was because you could bypass WGA to install the updates or because of the competing products that came with it like Flash and the Google Toolbar. All of which were OPTIONS.

The more I think about it I honestly don't see what was illegal about it. Yes, you could install the updates and bypass WGA and it distributed Microsoft's updates, BUT you could also install WGA with it. If it were a tool built for pirates it wouldn't have anything at all to do with WGA and would have been more underground from the beginning.

Anyone on here knows how strict Neowin is when it comes to warez talk and if anyone on the staff ever felt this violated anything they wouldn't have supported it soo long.

You're imagining a world where Neowin has more legal power over Microsoft.

In a perfect system, Microsoft and Neowin should have the same legal powers. It should be the actual laws that determine guilt, not how big of a company you are and how many lawyers you have. Unfortunately, our system is actually so flawed that the big corporations often hire lobbyists to convince our country's corrupt politicians to pass laws that would never be passed if held up to a vote to the general public.

Microsoft's side has it's point and counterpoints (point: Microsoft owns the updates and how they should be distributed, counterpoint: they waited 4 years to do it).

In the end, neowin will do nothing of that sort because it's really Microsoft's software that Autopatcher distributed all along. If it was Guild Wars patches or something then Neowin would certainly win (against Microsoft anyway, but I don't think they're that stupid).

Just out of interest- if you can't stand how Microsoft has been, how can you possibly stand how Apple has been? Their obnoxious ads aren't really that funny.

All that software is mainstream though, it's available in almost every OEM machine anyway.
No, I don't think that's the reason.

also autopatcher does nothing about trojans being installed with the patches and then rolled into autopatcher. thats a huge problem. Microsoft could be blammed for that .

Just look at all the people and countries getting onto the lets sue microsoft bandwagon. No matter how much you hate this happening yoou really cant blame microsoft.

"security" is an iffy point for me, and I don't think that's really the reason either. Microsoft uses "security" as a blanket term for everything that is in their interests: from legal issues to reducing support calls.

Oh yes we can.
The "OMGTROGANS!" argument is a lot of hot air. Viruses are not being secretly inserted into Autopatcher by evil hackers. It's just a scare tactic to make the sheeple afraid to use anything but Microsoft's own update services.

Yeah and where do the updates they put come from ? what if one of their machines is infected when they download the patches from microsoft before putting them into the autopatcher program?

Dont go stating their machines are secure, you dont know .

Any modules that aren't digitally signed by the AutoPatcher team cause the program to display "UNOFFICIAL VERSION" in bold, red type.
The actual update files are also digitally signed by MS. Both of these steps can assure users that nothing "iffy" is being placed into the update stream.

All I really want are answers. That's what we'll get from this Microsoft representative I hope.

Just as I posted on the forums, MS as a whole is/are not evil. It's their legal team.

Maybe they did, maybe it didn't work out. Maybe those 4 years were spent discussing with Microsoft to make it better. We won't know. It seems obvious that eventually someone will find a similar solution or force MS to add it in.

I dont think they even tried otherwise they wouldnt be in this mess. I am thinking that they could talk with microsoft and work this out. the tools are freely available.

The thing is all the people bashing microsoft over this won't help. People dont realise they are hurting autopatchers chances.

no wga should be canceled itself and the legal dept shot on site

I sent them a message

And what should Neowin have done? Do you have the bill to pay for lawyers? Do you even realize the relationship we have with Microsoft and how much both sides give and take? Have you also forgotten about us getting shut down in the past?

I guess it's easy to fight the man when you're not the one doing it.

Wont's somebody PLEASE think of the children!

The greatest sign of ignorance on the subject is when the OP replies with something sarcastic and void of any intelligence. My point is proven.

Last edited by bangbang023 on 30 Aug 2007 - 01:02

Really? And what exactly is that relationship? Because from were I’m standing, it certainly looks very one sided.

You guys (at Neowin) have certainly given a lot. You help people a place to talk about and hype up a lot of Microsoft’s products. In my opinion, that’s free advertising, the kind that you can’t just go out and buy. You offer assistance on bugs and problems in THEIR software.

And what have they given you. Nothing. They don’t give you anymore information or help then the rest of us.

Doesn’t seem very give and take to me.

Access to information before release and the ability to keep it online. Invites to various press events that only go out to select media outlets. Direct communication with various MS personnel that are mid way up the MS food chain. It goes on.

No, it's a sign that I don't care what you think of my opinion

If you're not willing to engage in a discussion, then please leave.

I'm sure once this news hit Neowin that many e-mails similar to yours went out to Microsoft. Although I bet many of them won't sound as professional more like:

"OMGzors M$....are you people phreaking stupid or what???" followed by a bunch of words you can't say on Neowin

I'm not even going to try to think of how many legit Windows computers I've updated using Autopatcher. It just made it a lot easier.