Adobe could still sue Microsoft

Adobe may sue Microsoft if it is not satisfied with the European Union's steps to ensure Microsoft's new operating system does not shut out rivals, Adobe's chief executive said.

Bruce Chizen told Germany's Euro am Sonntag newspaper there were two options: to sue Microsoft directly or to work with the authorities and provide them with the necessary information.

"We're doing the latter. Then we'll see," Chizen said in an interview released on Saturday ahead of publication on Sunday.

Microsoft's new Vista software, due to be released early next year, contains a version of fixed document formats which would compete with Adobe's PDF format. Microsoft has pledged to make changes to its version.

Chizen added that Adobe, known for its popular Acrobat document reader, was considering offering some of its more sophisticated software for photo and video editing over the Internet, financed by advertising.

"It would be a shame if we could not fit this into our business model," Chizen said.

News source: Reuters

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Look to be honest, as with other members on neowin.net I am getting pretty weary of reading about other developers and manufacturers complaining about “Microsoft has locked us out of their new Operating System.” Microsoft are doing a great job with Vista, I have been with it from the word go basically and although RTM still has a few little niggling bugs here and there that need to be ironed out, it’s stable and functions really well. It’s fast; the installation is completed in 20 minutes, boot-up time is fast and shutdown is comparable.

It’s all about rivalry at the end of the day? McAfee, Symantec, Adobe... all complaining about Windows Vista mainly because for the first time Microsoft has created an OS which doesn’t require you to purchase immeasurable amounts of software to make sure your PC is safe therefore, saving you the best part of over £100 in the process. The Security Centre will replace the need for McAfee and Symantec, both of which we all know slow you system down and decreases the load time.

Microsoft developed and alternative to PDF which if anybody has seen is pretty good and saves you around about $800 for the professional version of Adobe Reader 8 Professional. I sort of agree in one sense that Microsoft are cutting out the competition, but... come on face it, if Microsoft develops software for Vista which works better than your rivals it’s going to hack them off a little, because they know, that the end-user will not bother purchasing extra software mainly because its already pre-programmed in the Operating System. I’ll say it again... EU laws are stupendous, and inane, to say the least.

My reading of this is that Adobe isn't concerned about MS using its format (it wouldn't have made it an open format if it didn't want to) but is worried that MS has created a rival format which is available by default. Adobe makes money from advertising in Acrobat reader and it also makes money selling the best acrobat creation software not the only acrobat creation software. If MS makes it easier to use its own format than a rival's then Adobe stands to lose market share. PDF is the success it is because it works and there are competing readers and creators on all platforms. I don't see there being anything wrong in Adobe defending yours, my and others with less knowledge right to choose which format they use. Yes they'll make money but if you can come up with a better product you will to!

My opinion is that Microsoft is a monopoly plain and simple, it is not possible to compete against it's might and the EU is correct to enforce it's anti-monopoly laws.

..and what are "fixed document formats"?

My reading of this is that Adobe isn't concerned about MS using its format (it wouldn't have made it an open format if it didn't want to)

What?
They threatened to sue MS if they sopport pdf.

Quote - RealFduch said @ #23.1

What?
They threatened to sue MS if they sopport pdf.

I thought they threatened to sue MS if they created a default scenario which precluded fair competition (in their eyes!), the same reason we now have the opportunity to "remove" IE and WMP and MS backed down and removed the support from Office and Vista and altered their format.

Perhaps my reading is wrong but I thought we'd moved on from the necessity of removing an unfair default to ensuring through the EU that Adobe (and others) have a fair opportunity to integrate their products with Vista. A subtle distinction I admit so perhaps this is really the same argument.

There seem to be a few takes on the reporting of this some saying PDF support was intended others saying only an MS rival was supported - I'm now confused as to what is the truth!!!!

Wall Street Journal article referring only to rival format.

Oh well, as long as its ok for Mac to completely integrate PDF!

Oh, wait, that doesn't make any sense. Shouldn't Mac have been sued first?

Welcome to Adobe: The company of double standards and moronic lawsuits.

So basically Adobe wants to continue its monopoly... mmkay. Is anyone else seeing something wrong with this picture?

*sigh adobe and symantec are bunch cry babies...
I wish Final Cut would be made for windows{no I wont switch mac, fck them) because I would drop premier/after effect so adobe could die.. and nope I never paid for there ridiculous price for there software I gotta it for really cheap and legit hehe. I never use PDF unless there file that need be view I use foxit as viewer.

PDF is a good format for print. Usually you're pretty sure you'll get what's on the PDF looking more or less the same out the printer. Other than that, I'd rather have HTML with extensions any day. And I would say it is about time that Windows was bundled with a proper document exchange format, passing around Word Documents is not really the ultimate solution.

If Adobe sues Microsoft then they will have to sue the folks at OpenOffice as well because they have been using "Save as PDF" for a looooong time.

does anyone even use adobe for pdfs anymore? i mean that foxit reader is free and doesnt even have to be installed and is like 1mb in size. why would you bother with adobes bloated reader.

PDF files are useless. It comes down to that. They are a resource hog and are only good for photocopyed books.

Also, if Adobe sues MS, you can flush their support right down the toliet for Vista.

PDF files are fine, Adobe Reader is a resource hog!
PDF have become very useful to me. As for XPS, apparently you can open them with IE7 and .net 3, but it didn't work very well for me.

Precisely...they had their chance to accept change and progress. Now they are unhappy with the fact that they are about to be replaced in the marketplace. I mean, if it wasn't MS, SOMEONE was going to have to create a successful universal document format and open source it.

For Pete's sake, it's just a FILE FORMAT!

There are a few other programs that convert to PDF files, why aren't they getting sued? PDF Creator, CutePDF, and I'm sure there are many other free ones out there do the same thing as MS's PDF creator.

Adobe can kiss my ass. I wish MS would just wipe them out of existence.

/Very bad day working with Adobe. They are bloody useless.

This read a lot like Adobe wanting to sue because there might actually be some competition against them
....Imagine that, competition and use choice...


- It's better for the end-users to have all the options available in one OS.. if they don't like, then they can use other products.. no one is forced..

- So why companies are acting silly like that..? bah

The point is users will have no incentive to buy Acrobat, which means less competition. And we all know what MS products that have no competition look like (read: IE before IE7).

The point is users will have no incentive to buy Acrobat

You know.... I have no incentive to buy Acrobat for $800 regardless of what Vista has.
They just want to make easy money from their own mistakes.

Quote - RealFduch said @ #6.2
You know.... I have no incentive to buy Acrobat for $800 regardless of what Vista has.
They just want to make easy money from their own mistakes.

Their own mistakes? They created a very successful file format and now Microsoft has decided to bundle their own version and take away their market share... I wouldn't call creating a successful product a mistake. By that logic anything designed for Windows would have to be a mistake because Microsoft could ultimately decide to include that functionality and make the original product worthless.

The time has come for the ridiculously overpriced Adobe Acrobat main suite to go the way of the dodo and become free anyway. It can't be that big of a money maker for Adobe compared to Photoshop, et al.

Either way, it was just a FILE FORMAT for crying out loud and they did a good job of making it ubiquitous, but how long did they honestly think they were going to be able to keep a FILE FORMAT generating money?

Adobe should have just "Freewared" this and let MS include it as a de facto standard in its new Office 2007 products, just like it already is in Open Office, Final Draft, etc. etc.

How does the following have anything to do with the story?

...Chizen added that Adobe, known for its popular Acrobat document reader, was considering offering some of its more sophisticated software for photo and video editing over the Internet, financed by advertising.

"It would be a shame if we could not fit this into our business model," Chizen said.

On another note, it's almost like Adobe doesn't want people using PDFs.

Vista XPS support -> less Acrobat sales -> less profit -> need more revenue -> can't offer services that would generate reduced revenue -> can't offer ad-supported services :P

Quote - Andareed said @ #1.1
Vista XPS support -> less Acrobat sales -> less profit -> need more revenue -> can't offer services that would generate reduced revenue -> can't offer ad-supported services :P

That's quite the trail to follow!

The way Adobe seems to go, I think they'd get lost along the way.

Is it just me or is everyone complaining about Vista? I mean Adobe, McAfee, Symantec...If they've got so much to complain about Windows, then why aren't they bringing out their products for Linux (too)?! I mean this would be a good move. This is something that would interest a lot of potentional customers to buy their software and may even help companies that are interested to migrate to Linux easier.

Actually IMHO companies like Adobe, McAfee and Symantec should bind forces, bring out their products for Linux as well and try to compete with Microsoft that way. Eventually the way I see it, this may be the only way out in the future, because Microsoft is purchasing a lot of companies at the moment that could threaten the positions of other companies...Think about an integrated firewall, anti virus package in Vista and Microsoft's PDF plug in).

Quote - bush said @ #2
why do they have to fight with legal actions instead of making better products?


Litigation is faster and cheaper than innovation

Ridiculous. Remind me of flame wars over hypothetical situations in Neowin :P. It's not like the world is going to abandon PDF and if Adobe is so concerned than they should offer a reduced version of Adobe Acrobat for free.

Ridiculous? It sure is... ridiculous that Microsoft can freely bundle a competing product with Windows and destroy the market for an existing product. It's bad for the market as there is less competition. Sure some people will still go for PDF but most people will opt for the product that works out of the box. If Microsoft offered it as a free download then I would have absolutely NO problem. The EU is there to protect against things like this and I am glad that Adobe are taking advantage of that protection.

Quote - theyarecomingforyou said @ #1.1
Ridiculous? It sure is... ridiculous that Microsoft can freely bundle a competing product with Windows and destroy the market for an existing product. It's bad for the market as there is less competition. Sure some people will still go for PDF but most people will opt for the product that works out of the box. If Microsoft offered it as a free download then I would have absolutely NO problem. The EU is there to protect against things like this and I am glad that Adobe are taking advantage of that protection.

Oh that's the reason? It has nothing to do with the fact that Adobe has no patent for PDF, Adobe has no problem with OpenOffice and Macs using PDF or that Microsoft can be sued for more than Adobe makes off their program in a year?

Quote - theyarecomingforyou said @ #1.1
Ridiculous? It sure is... ridiculous that Microsoft can freely bundle a competing product with Windows and destroy the market for an existing product. It's bad for the market as there is less competition. Sure some people will still go for PDF but most people will opt for the product that works out of the box. If Microsoft offered it as a free download then I would have absolutely NO problem. The EU is there to protect against things like this and I am glad that Adobe are taking advantage of that protection.

Does this make Flickr bad as well since they switched to AJAX when Adobe bought Macromedia?

Quote - slimy said @ #1.2
Oh that's the reason? It has nothing to do with the fact that Adobe has no patent for PDF, Adobe has no problem with OpenOffice and Macs using PDF or that Microsoft can be sued for more than Adobe makes off their program in a year?

Whether Adobe has a patent for PDF is irrelevant - by bundling a competing application into Vista they are destroying the market share that Adobe has spent years building up and invested considerable money into. You can't have a situation whereby industries build up that employ hundreds/thousands of people and contribute millions to the economy can suddenly be wiped out because Microsoft has decided to bundle media players, anti-virus software or such into the latest version of Windows. At the same time it is important that Microsoft still be allowed to add new features and improve security... I'm just saying that it needs to take into account the rest of the industry.

Market share? Last time I looked PDF basically had 100% of that segment of the market. Adobe can and will survive even if they loose some market share. I welcome some competition. Sod adobe and its $500 PDF suites.

Well everyone used to have to download WinZip before Windows ME (and subsequently XP and I think 2k) had it built-in. Now who the hell needs Winzip, it's built into Explorer.

in response to that actually alot of people use Winzip, 7zip or winrar. Others such as Zip Genious are installed at my university too.

Same with browsers. Firefox can be found on many systems. Just because MS includes an alternative doesnt mean the other will go away. Sure winzip isnt the application it once was but thats because there was no competition. Nowdays there is and their market share has subsequently dropped but by no means is winzip a dead project and they arent even a spec of the company that adobe currently is.

Quote - theyarecomingforyou said @ #1.4

Whether Adobe has a patent for PDF is irrelevant - by bundling a competing application into Vista they are destroying the market share that Adobe has spent years building up and invested considerable money into. You can't have a situation whereby industries build up that employ hundreds/thousands of people and contribute millions to the economy can suddenly be wiped out because Microsoft has decided to bundle media players, anti-virus software or such into the latest version of Windows. At the same time it is important that Microsoft still be allowed to add new features and improve security... I'm just saying that it needs to take into account the rest of the industry.

Microsoft is bundling Microsoft software. What's wrong?

Quote - M2Ys4U said @ #1.6
Well everyone used to have to download WinZip before Windows ME (and subsequently XP and I think 2k) had it built-in. Now who the hell needs Winzip, it's built into Explorer.

As long as the built-in zipper performs like crap, WinZip, WinRAR, or whatever archiver won't be going anywhere soon. Vista's zipper still takes ages to do something that takes only seconds in WinRAR.