Ballmer states that Windows is not selling well enough, next gen Surface in testing

On Microsoft’s campus today, Ballmer held a ‘rally the troops’ type event where they typically go over the quarterly earnings report and attempt to boost/keep the good vibes flowing within the company.

During his internal address, Ballmer stated that Windows is not selling well enough, which shouldn’t come as a major surprise, as the company has blamed just about everything under the sun for the slower adoption of Windows 8.

Other tidbits from the address are that Microsoft is hoping to carry the third quarter momentum into Q4 and that, like many organizations, they will be investing heavily into professional services in the next fiscal quarter. Other obvious talking points included the fact that Windows 8.1 was heavily shaped by user telemetry and  was why Microsoft reintroduced the Start button back into Windows 8.

Ever wonder what Microsoft’s top subsidiary was for the past fiscal year? Wonder no more, as for the first time in eight years, the US subsidiary was the top performing entity for Microsoft.

As for the next Surface? The device is currently in testing and will feature ‘typical improvements’ which is likely a spec bump. Internal response to the next gen Surface has been positive.

Microsoft also reiterated that getting Instagram is more important than landing 900,000 apps; it’s clear they know that quality is better than quantity. Considering that the highest level of the food chain wants the app on Windows Phone, you do have to wonder why Facebook/Instagram is holding back.

That’s all of the interesting tidbits that were discussed at the event. It’s clear that Microsoft knows it has a lot of work to do to meet next quarter's expectations.

Thanks for the tip Anon!

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Complaining and passing out blame is all well and good, but one thing MS didn't explain the remedial steps they are taking. Shouting "Surface" and "Instagram" is anticlimactic to say the least.

This is nothing new for Microsoft. Massive change and word of mouth killing sales. Consumers resist massive change plain and simple and when people bitch enough about it, word goes around and suddenly you have massive amounts of people that have actually never used the OS talking about how it sucks and not to buy it. The problem for Microsoft is that have a pretty clear and good vision of hybrid computing, but can't seem to execute it right. They would probably have done better with Windows 8 had they done a desktop OS and a tablet/phone OS, but thats not their vision. This is probably one of the reasons, Apple has never drastically changed OS X and keeps going with the small incremental upgrades over time.

With missing things in Win8, lack of support for Desktop users, hard to get to settings...I am not surprised. I see 8.1 making things better tho.

Windows 8 is not selling well enough. Nobody should be shocked by this. People with an open and level headed mind (this doesn't include the countless number of people of this forum) have always know this before it went gold.

Microsoft needs to listen closely to business and consumers.

DarkNet said,
Windows 8 is not selling well enough. Nobody should be shocked by this. People with an open and level headed mind (this doesn't include the countless number of people of this forum) have always know this before it went gold.

Microsoft needs to listen closely to business and consumers.

so the over 100 MILLION copies they sold is...nobody?

neonspark said,
funny thing is android tablets are flopping as are chromebooks. remember the nexus 10?

Hmm, Android Tablet sales have doubled since last year and Chromebook Sales aren't going down. In fact Chromebook accounts for the majority of Sub $299 netbooks.

But hey, keep believing in that if it helps you sleep and have your little Microsoft Fantasy. No skin off my back.

neonspark said,

so the over 100 MILLION copies they sold is...nobody?

Shipped, not sold. Mostly to OEMs. Who ended up with tons of Win 8 PCs and laptops nobody wanted, and caused an even greater acceleration in the decline of PC sales.

http://www.zdnet.com/windows-8...s-the-disconnect-7000014964

http://betanews.com/2013/05/07...ndows-8-licenses-is-nothing

http://www.informationweek.com...8-license-numbers/240154345

Android tablets flopping? "Android tablets will hit 60% market share this quarter"

http://venturebeat.com/2013/05...-shipments-dip-analyst-says

Want to keep going? I can deflate your fallacies and BS claims all day.

Edited by startscreennope, Jul 25 2013, 5:47pm :

startscreennope said,
Shipped, not sold. Mostly to OEMs. Who ended up with tons of Win 8 PCs and laptops nobody wanted, and caused an even greater acceleration in the decline of PC sales.
Why did you put him in his place with all these links? I like when people don't know how to read accurately and make a giant fool of themselves. They just pick and choose what they want to be true. You know like Google is evil and suck and Microshaft can do no harm and loves you and pets kittens.

Speaking of evil Google, it's rather ironic that MS spends millions on "scroogled" ad campaigns, while when installing Windows 8 you have to go through 10+ extraneous clicks to opt-out of all the new metrics MS wants your computer sending to its servers. And then opt out of (or uninstall) Windows 8 Defender's "MAPS" program. And all of the opt-out live tiles that you can't easily firewall block.

And I wouldn't be surprised at all if some future update accidentally "enabled" all those opt-out metrics without permission.

Edited by startscreennope, Jul 26 2013, 6:02am :

If it wasn't for programs like Start8 we I would have gone back to Windows 7 by now.

In it's default state I find Windows 8 annoying to use, and no putting a Start Button back is not going to help.

I love the way they say they put the Start Button back due to User Demand, when what most people meant when they said they want it back was they waned the whole Start Menu & Button!

Microsoft just plain refuses to admit they ever get things wrong!

"Other obvious talking points included the fact that Windows 8.1 was heavily shaped by user telemetry and was why Microsoft reintroduced the Start button back into Windows 8"

I thought they used telemetry as an excuse to take the start menu out???

Superboy said,
"Other obvious talking points included the fact that Windows 8.1 was heavily shaped by user telemetry and was why Microsoft reintroduced the Start button back into Windows 8"

I thought they used telemetry as an excuse to take the start menu out???


Yes, amd that's why the start menu is still gone. What's your point?

That the start button was part of the start menu!!!.
So they are not really listening to customers because they only brought back half of what they are asking for watch next version will bring back the whole thing back, when they see that it still not going to sell well, they are just testing to see with what they can get away with.

rippleman said,
If windows 8 didn't use metro, I would be using windows 8 at this very moment.
The thing is, that if you don't want it, you DON'T have to use metro at all, especially on Windows 8.1. Metro/Modern UI doesn't interfere nor slow down the rest of the system in any way.

The thing is that some people HATE metro, regardless of what you say they are not happy with the direction the Windows 8 OS has taken and won't use it. MS made a big mistake with METRO and some people just won't get over it very quickly, if at all.

It's not just Metro, there are other changes Win 8 makes that would take quite a lot of 3rd party software to replace. It's also possible to use 3rd party software on Win 7. Also, on many business/library/cafe/rental computers you aren't allowed to install third party software at all.

Furthermore you're asking someone to spend money on 3rd party solutions, spend time installing and maintaining it, dealing with any security or stability issues, looking out for potential malware/adware included with these programs, etc. Or you can stick with Win 7 with its secure built in functionality.

Finally there's the matter of principle. Do I really want to encourage MS's business tactic of reducing desktop functionality in order to familiarize users with MS's touch interface in an attempt to drive their failing phone and tablet sales? For me, the answer is definitely not, as it sets a dangerous precedent and encourages them to continue throwing desktop users under the bus.

Edited by startscreennope, Jul 25 2013, 7:19am :

startscreennope said,
It's not just Metro, there are other changes Win 8 makes that would take quite a lot of 3rd party software to replace. It's also possible to use 3rd party software on Win 7. Also, on many business/library/cafe/rental computers you aren't allowed to install third party software at all.......

Yes! Perfect, you said it all.

rippleman said,
If windows 8 didn't use metro, I would be using windows 8 at this very moment.

some people didn't want windows 95 because they couldn't run all the 16bit junkware from windows 3.1. and it removed the "program manager" and put this horrible "start menu". move on.

neonspark said,

some people didn't want windows 95 because they couldn't run all the 16bit junkware from windows 3.1. and it removed the "program manager" and put this horrible "start menu". move on.

False equivalency fallacy.

while it is true some hated it, it is also true MOST loved it.

neonspark said,

some people didn't want windows 95 because they couldn't run all the 16bit junkware from windows 3.1. and it removed the "program manager" and put this horrible "start menu". move on.

I think that people, average people, have had enough of Windows. Enough viruses, enough malware, enough of strange things happening that need an expert. Now people have other choices and they are not choosing windows or surface.

Please tell me (a desktop user) why I should go out and buy a Slate and upgrade to Windows 8 (from 7)... I don't see the point.

I wasn't expecting a mad rush for Windows 8 (like there was for Windows 95) at its release. Was Ballmer? The missing Start menu may actually have a part in this. I think they released Windows 8 too soon, and many people thought it may be another Vista. I don't want to go through that experience again - I still haven't got my "Ultimate" features.

Perhaps they shouldn't have merged a desktop and mobile/tablet OS together.

Edited by 68k, Jul 25 2013, 12:42am :

The Start button was only the start in 8.1. Despite what the fans say here, I can see Microsoft adding more previous Windows functions in future updates. The consumers run things no matter how much Microsoft thinks they know what's best. Money is very powerful!

JHBrown said,
The Start button was only the start in 8.1. Despite what the fans say here, I can see Microsoft adding more previous Windows functions in future updates. The consumers run things no matter how much Microsoft thinks they know what's best. Money is very powerful!

Right... What's dead is dead. This is a new direction, and they're sticking to it, until the next change in direction comes.

Dot Matrix said,

Right... What's dead is dead. This is a new direction, and they're sticking to it, until the next change in direction comes.

Here we go with the "old = bad, new = good" shillsense. I mean nonsense. "The start screen is dead, deal with it, peasant!" - Yes, customers will deal with it by not buying Win 8.

It could have been selling very well, but … no one listened, it is a beautiful Tablet OS, the split screen is much better than Android and IOS, of course the others have more apps and other features.

Again, it is not a Desktop OS, well, even with Windows 8.1, you still can't sell desktop apps on the Windows 8 Store, and even if Microsoft realized the stupidity and started working hard to improve that, it will take them a year or two, at the same time the Google Apps / Chrome store v2 is a few weeks from general availability, anyone can create offline desktop apps and sell them for Windows, Mac, and Chrome OS.

"no one listened" Another blame the customer strawman. Keep calling customers ignorant, it's sure to do wonders for sales.

Not sure what you mean by "a beautiful tablet OS", but people aren't going to spring for a Win tablet because of "better split screen" ahead of price and software ecosystem. On the other hand, OS features (such as the start screen) are the main reason why Win 8 on PCs is failing.

startscreennope said,
"no one listened" Another blame the customer strawman. Keep calling customers ignorant, it's sure to do wonders for sales.

He's not talking about consumers there. He's talking Microsoft's failure to listen to what consumers are complaining about and addressing those concerns.

Cheatyface said,

He's not talking about consumers there. He's talking Microsoft's failure to listen to what consumers are complaining about and addressing those concerns.

Ok, maybe. Reading it again it does seem a bit ambiguous.

startscreennope said,
"no one listened" Another blame the customer strawman. Keep calling customers ignorant, it's sure to do wonders for sales.

Not sure what you mean by "a beautiful tablet OS", but people aren't going to spring for a Win tablet because of "better split screen" ahead of price and software ecosystem. On the other hand, OS features (such as the start screen) are the main reason why Win 8 on PCs is failing.

shows how much you know. windows 7 never went anywhere on tablets and it had a start menu. overrated start menu is meaningless.

neonspark said,
shows how much you know. windows 7 never went anywhere on tablets and it had a start menu. overrated start menu is meaningless.
Correlation causation fallacy.

You're like a walking dictionary of fallacies, misleading statistics, and customer insults.

Just to keep Microsoft's earnings in perspective, here is a story comparing Apple's to MS's...

http://www.zdnet.com/apple-ver...-tells-the-tale-7000014556/

Microsoft is doing OK but you would not know that by all the recent stories. Surface RT (and Win RT in general) might not pay off for MS but there were good reasons to risk and try RT. It will allow them to move away from legacy apps that are generally more unstable and a security risk then Metro apps. And frankly they also see the writing on the wall in that the computation for apps will be done in the cloud including high graphical apps such as games or CAD and video streamed down to an appliance like thin device. I think they simply changed too much too soon and should have first made the desktop touch centric including ALL of the configuration and settings.

They say that they are still supporting RT going forward and I think they will as its more of a long play then a single product. ARMs will cont. to become cheaper, thinner, less energy dependant, and more powerful.

People use permissive OSes like Windows partly because of the freedom to run whatever software they want. Other than being pre-screened in the Windows Store, Win RT apps are not theoretically any more secure than x86 programs, and all walled gardens (iOS, Android, etc.) have had security issues before.

You can prophesize all you want about the cloud, but the infrastructure and consumer interest is not there.

You think MS should have made Win 8 ALL about touch? Yes, let's get rid of mouse and keyboard support, who uses those things anyway? Per your suggestion, MS should kill off the desktop altogether and replace it with Windows tablets. Well they're doing a good job with the former, not so good with the latter.

MS's support of ARM isn't the reason Win tablets are failing. They're failing because they are more expensive with less software choice. Even after the $150 haircut to Surface tablets they're still not price competitive.

actually win 8 tablets are doing very good. they will clock double digits in this quarter and growing faster than android and iOS. sorry to burst your bubble. and with the new intel chips coming in later this year, running the world's greatest app ecosystem, x86, which makes the google playstore look like a toy, all bow to the windows era.

neonspark said,
actually win 8 tablets are doing very good. they will clock double digits in this quarter and growing faster than android and iOS. sorry to burst your bubble. and with the new intel chips coming in later this year, running the world's greatest app ecosystem, x86, which makes the google playstore look like a toy, all bow to the windows era.
Surface, which in the first quarter of this year sold around 900,000 units (Surface and Surface Pro combined). That number gives Surface a market share of 1.8 percent, putting it in fifth place behind Apple, Samsung, ASUS and Amazon.

http://madmobilenews.com/micro...hannels-for-enterprise-2122

Good luck to Intel with their CPUs, but they haven't shown either power or price competitiveness with ARM. People will still go for the lower priced, better power/performance ARM+Android tablets.

Ever wonder what Microsoft's top subsidiary was for the past fiscal year? Wonder no more, as for the first time in eight years, the US subsidiary was the top performing entity for Microsoft.

This is kind of confusing. Are you using that word in a general sense or a business sense?

Steve Ballmer should be moved back to Vice President and have Bill Gates come back. Microsoft was doing really well when Bill Gates was running it. Steve Ballmer is honestly a terrible CEO.

Lone Wanderer Chicken said,
Steve Ballmer should be moved back to Vice President and have Bill Gates come back. Microsoft was doing really well when Bill Gates was running it. Steve Ballmer is honestly a terrible CEO.

That's a diarrhea of bull**** IMO

I don't wanna sound rude but Microsoft released terrific products with Ballmer as a CEO.

Jarrichvdv said,

That's a diarrhea of bull**** IMO

I don't wanna sound rude but Microsoft released terrific products with Ballmer as a CEO.

Like the Kin?

Microsoft is doing extremely well under Ballmer, they are making other than a couple of write downs, the big one last year and the surface price adjustment, MS is actually on fire.

Dot Matrix said,
Like the Xbox, Xbox 360, Windows XP, Vista, 7, and 8.... The list goes on.

Windows 8 is so great, it's not selling well enough. Right.

Dot Matrix said,
Like the Xbox, Xbox 360, Windows XP, Vista, 7, and 8.... The list goes on.
And what products have Ballmer presided over directly, once he started taking greater control of MS? Surface, Windows Phone, Win 8, Xbox One. Just about says it all.

I believe the problem has got to do with bad press. They should have included the Start menu as an option, since it would have calmed down the media eaters. I bet many people haven't even tried the start screen and they all do is complain (I do justify many people that find it unproductive).

On the other hand, if MS didn't push Windows 8 the way they did now, people would:

a) Complain that it wouldn't justify the purchase of an OS since it didn't bring anything new.
b) Android and iOS would have eaten Windows in terms of marketshare (this is already happening) (http://news.softpedia.com/news...erating-System-369025.shtml)
c) Complain because complain.

Blaming the media/customers for not praising or buying your product is business suicide. Now, addressing your strawman "theoretical responses":

a) Win 8 does have some improvements that justify upgrading, but the start screen and other things are a huge step back.
b) This would have happened regardless, BUT it wouldn't be so severe if not for the start screen debacle.
c) More customer blaming.

Jose_49 said,
I believe the problem has got to do with bad press. They should have included the Start menu as an option, since it would have calmed down the media eaters. I bet many people haven't even tried the start screen and they all do is complain

I've tried (hell I currently run it) but the Start "Screen" is possibly the biggest mistake I've ever seen MS make (and I've seen some MS clangers in my time.)

It's magnificently user unfriendly for keyboard and mouse users with no discernible benefit to us.

I LIKE the keyboard/mouse setup. It just WORKS. I really don't want a "My First Desktop" UI when what I have works well.

Sadly MS are essentially redesigning the wheel when they should be focussing on the third rail,so to speak.

I would imagine around the holiday season or maybe sooner, there will be a whole bunch of new devices around or shortly after the rtm of 8.1, these devices will be a large improvement on first gen win8 devices.

matt4444 said,
Really couldn't care if Instagram is on Windows Phone or not. Keep the hipsters of the platform!

You're talking like a Windows Store hipster.

Ballmer says Windows 8 isn't selling well? Psh, what does he know? Doesn't he read Neowin and know that Windows 8 is the most beloved, successful OS ever?

You forgot to blame and insult the customer for their grave transgression of not buying Windows 8. Some of them even have the gall to express the reasons they aren't buying it on public internet forums!

Lord Method Man said,
Ballmer says Windows 8 isn't selling well? Psh, what does he know? Doesn't he read Neowin and know that Windows 8 is the most beloved, successful OS ever?
This

torrentthief said,
correct, he forgot to say that anyone who hates the lack of a start menu "doesn't like change".

Yep. They are just too stupid to adapt! The world is moving forward! Metro is the future, do you want to come to the future?

/s

torrentthief said,
correct, he forgot to say that anyone who hates the lack of a start menu "doesn't like change".
There are now posters in this thread (neonspark and HawkMan) making this and other insulting claims unironically.

Considering that the highest level of the food chain wants the app on Windows Phone, you do have to wonder why Facebook/Instagram is holding back.

Lack of interest in Windows Phone / Windows RT by consumers.

.Neo said,

Lack of interest in Windows Phone / Windows RT by consumers.

Never really understood this argument, surely as a business you would want more people to use your services? Sure WP doesn't have a massive market share, no argument from me there, but it has a potential X millions of users, and its not like its market share is going down at all.

Problem is now that 3rd party apps like Instance have come out to fill the hole, if Instagram make a WP app its gonna have to be better than Instance, otherwise why would users get it over the official app?

Silver47 said,

Problem is now that 3rd party apps like Instance have come out to fill the hole, if Instagram make a WP app its gonna have to be better than Instance, otherwise why would users get it over the official app?

Regardless of what some diehard WP fans believe, the platform needs official apps. I'm not saying third party apps are crap, I'm saying first party apps are necessary. Reasons for this include future changes or restrictions to APIs that could prevent third party apps from working properly and earlier updates to enable new features. For example, does Instance support videos yet?

Never really understood this argument, surely as a business you would want more people to use your services?

It obviously takes effort to produce and support apps for other platforms. When it becomes cost-effective to support WP, e.g. when they earn a substantial marketshare, you'll start seeing more first party apps. Apart from not making financial sense, lack of first party apps may also be due to competitors not wanting to throw a bone to WP because it would hurt their own business.

Manish said,

Regardless of what some diehard WP fans believe, the platform needs official apps. I'm not saying third party apps are crap, I'm saying first party apps are necessary. Reasons for this include future changes or restrictions to APIs that could prevent third party apps from working properly and earlier updates to enable new features. For example, does Instance support videos yet?

Ohh I agree, I'm saying that if a bar has been set by a 3rd party, a 1st party app would look poor against it. Using Instance as our example, Instagram's app would have to support video to get people to come away from Instance straight away.

Manish said,

It obviously takes effort to produce and support apps for other platforms. When it becomes cost-effective to support WP, e.g. when they earn a substantial marketshare, you'll start seeing more first party apps. Apart from not making financial sense, lack of first party apps may also be due to competitors not wanting to throw a bone to WP because it would hurt their own business.

Well yes, it would take effort to make and support an app. I don't know if Daniel Gary has a full time job or anything, but if he does, he managed to make an app by himself with no support from instagram at all. Now when someone does your job for you in their spare time, how the hell would that make you feel?

As for your point, yeah I think it will be a cold day in hell before we'll see Google make apps for WP.

There is no lack of interest in windows phone 8, it is doing extremely well outside of the USA, has surpassed blackberry, has overtaken ios in several markets and getting very close to ios in more than several markets, which is doing extremely well in a very saturated market.

I'm not buying the marketshare argument either. How much could it possibly cost to create an app? Surely MS has offered them some. If it costs more than 200K to bring an app like that to market, there is something fundamentally wrong.

I think its more about the dickishness of said companies to spite MS where they can. We aren't talking about the small, one off platform specific 'quantity' ones. (Which many WP users find largely irrelevant to begin with - so not a plus for the store.)

Edited by Dashel, Jul 25 2013, 2:41am :

Silver47 said,
Never really understood this argument, surely as a business you would want more people to use your services??

If the amount of people using a platform isn't wroth the development costs and you're not convinced said platform is going to grow much, then no.

korupt_one said,
There is no lack of interest in windows phone 8, it is doing extremely well outside of the USA, has surpassed blackberry, has overtaken ios in several markets and getting very close to ios in more than several markets, which is doing extremely well in a very saturated market.
Oh yeah, 5-7% marketshare at most. Spectacular numbers given the amount of money MS has thrown at it, and the number of manufacturers no longer making Windows phones.

startscreennope said,
Oh yeah, 5-7% marketshare at most. Spectacular numbers given the amount of money MS has thrown at it, and the number of manufacturers no longer making Windows phones.

Companies no longer making Windows Phones: LG, Dell, Acer
Companies still making Windows Phones: Nokia (obviously), HTC, Samsung, Huawei, Lenovo
Companies that never made Windows Phones: Apple (duh), ZTE, Sony
Companies that no longer make phones: Dell

There are only TWO manufacturers (out of 8) that no longer make Windows Phones, while the third manufacturer no longer makes ANY phones.

MS must continue to improve Win 8 for desktop users if they want more users to adapt it. Win 8.1 isn't enough.

http://www.neowin.net/forum/to...-improve-on-with-windows-81

Of course even if Windows 8 was just a reskinned Windows 7, we'd expect declining Windows/PC sales, stagnating Windows phone/tablet sales, and even the Xbox One isn't looking too hot.

They haven't given customers what they want with Win 8, their phones, tablets, and xbox one are all more expensive with worse specs than their competition. The only thing Windows has is its massive software support, which may continue to erode.

The start menu isn't coming back. Instead we should focus on constructive suggestions that bring back some of the missing functionality, such as the forum post I linked to.

Having a list of constructive functionality suggestions is far more useful and effective than "bring back the start menu" at this point.

My constructive comment is if you don't like Win8, just keep using Win7. That's what I'm doing. Win8 offers me nothing to make me want it. Win7 does everything I need and want currently. If I didn't like the UI on the phone, then why would I want it on my desktop? I don't like the phone, the desktop, now xbox, nor tablet (slate). I know there are those that do, but I'm not one. My money will go elsewhere.

flames in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

torrentthief said,
if they allowed users to enable to start menu windows 8 would be selling well. They deserve to fail.

People aren't not buying windows because of a lack of start menu, heck the vast majority had no problem with the start screen, they just wanted a button for some reason.

A start menu wouldn't magically make people buy more laptops. And windows 8 has already sold more upgrade licenses than previous windows OS so there is intact more people upgrading "old" computers now.

HawkMan said,

People aren't not buying windows because of a lack of start menu, heck the vast majority had no problem with the start screen, they just wanted a button for some reason.

A start menu wouldn't magically make people buy more laptops. And windows 8 has already sold more upgrade licenses than previous windows OS so there is intact more people upgrading "old" computers now.

Doesn't explain the articles covering people desperately trying to snatch up Win 7 laptops. If you think Win 8 hasn't affected PC sales you're wrong.

And no, it's not "just a button" people are missing. Insult/attack the customer and deny Win 8 is affecting PC sales - care to be any more wrong or insulting?

startscreennope said,
Doesn't explain the articles covering people desperately trying to snatch up Win 7 laptops. If you think Win 8 hasn't affected PC sales you're wrong.

And no, it's not "just a button" people are missing. Insult/attack the customer and deny Win 8 is affecting PC sales - care to be any more wrong or insulting?

A small amount of pepl desperately clinging to old software does not affect the 99.9999% of the PC user base buying PC's .

There's NOONE (among the regular crowd of PC users, not the "think they are experts because they run CCleaner and know how top open the RAM cover" people) who will turn away and not buy a PC because it has Windows 8 and not Windows 7 on it, unless the seller is absolutely terrible or possibly fall in the aforementioned wannabe expert group.

Let them try Windows 8 and explain it's just a different way to start apps and they're happy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23251285

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media..._number_of_pc_sales_464.gif

Take a look at this image - guess where Windows 8 launch is? Yes, sales immediately plummeted after Windows 8 launched.

As for customers still looking for Windows 7 PCs and Laptops instead of Win 8? Yes, it is real, and there are dozens of articles aimed at helping people find them.

Insulting and belittling customers who don't want Win 8. - check.
"They just don't like change, there's nothing else wrong with it!!" fallacy - check.
"Customers are dumb, they don't know what they want" insult - check.
You're just full of bile, fallacies, and falsehoods, aren't you?

Apparently this kind of behavior is acceptable on this web site. Shameful.

Apparently you're not very good at reading and understanding graphs...

and unlike you I actually have experience with customers and clients. not just what the media feeds you. And actually I never said customer don't want change. in fact most don't have a problem with change, especially not after you show it to them and tell them what the change really is, not what the haters make it out to be.

Customers might not be "dumb" but the average customers is dumb when it comes to computers, and they DON'T know what what want/need, that's why they come and ask for help.

Insults as a response to facts that prove your claims entirely wrong "you're not very good" - check.
Presumptive, false accusations "and unlike you" - check.
Argument by (very questionable) authority "I actually have experience with customers and clients" - check.
Strawman fallacy "the haters" - check.
Insult customers some more - check.

Where are the moderators?

Natural. Windows just won't be as dominant in the future, that's an absolute certainty. If people can get their computing needs fulfilled from iOS and Android, and if there is no software pushing the need to upgrade computers as well (I'm running a desktop from 2008 and a laptop from 2007) then of course Windows has a smaller future.
Nothing's going to change that.. Although it's obvious Microsoft is aware of this, hence the long term play for mobility with Windows 8

with android and iOS lagging by lightyears in the enterprise, desktop and business computing, windows will remain dominant for decades to come.

neonspark said,
with android and iOS lagging by lightyears in the enterprise, desktop and business computing, windows will remain dominant for decades to come.
Many businesses use tablets for work purposes, guess what OS they're likely to be using.

MS's desktop dominance won't mean much if they continue to throw desktop users under the bus and cause even greater PC sales decline.

Enterprise computing? Good luck with that.

http://www.sysaid.com/company/...ingly-low-among-enterprises

Stoffel said,
There is a difference between 'not selling well' and 'not selling well enough'

What's the difference then? The word "enough" doesn't change the meaning at all.

Stoffel said,
There is a difference between 'not selling well' and 'not selling well enough'

Do not adorn the matter. They have their standards and they haven't met it yet. They're praying for a massive Windows XP dump-out, which it seems companies aren't willing to do.

Jose_49 said,

They're praying for a massive Windows XP dump-out, which it seems companies aren't willing to do.

They are going to do something when a mountain of vulnerabilities in XP get uncovered April 9, 2014.

rfirth said,

They are going to do something when a mountain of vulnerabilities in XP get uncovered April 9, 2014.

Indeed, I really wouldn't be surprise if the malware makers target the hell out of XP. It won't be long before the NIMDA style attacks XP had before prior SP2, you know before when XP had titanic sized security holes?

rfirth said,

They are going to do something when a mountain of vulnerabilities in XP get uncovered April 9, 2014.

not if their computers aren't connected to the internet.

Astra.Xtreme said,

What's the difference then? The word "enough" doesn't change the meaning at all.

I would say that is selling below the set goals.
Just a guess......

Astra.Xtreme said,
It's not selling well? No wai!!...
Pretty hard to twist the story when even the leader admits it.

how about that ipad sales hit thats bigger than the PC industrys. pcs are dying right?

Astra.Xtreme said,
It's not selling well? No wai!!...
Pretty hard to twist the story when even the leader admits it.

admitting to a mistake and trying to fix it isn't bad thing. ignoring it for years is a horrible thing. now they know and they are listening to feedback, we've already seen tons of improvement in 8.1 hopefully windows 9 is going to bury windows 8's shame just like 7 did for vista. I feel good about windows 9.

Astra.Xtreme said,

What's the difference then? The word "enough" doesn't change the meaning at all.

Difference would be, say a product only sold 10 units, a minuscule amount, that would be not selling well. Not selling well enough would be, if they wanted to sell 10,000 units but have so far only sold 9,500 units, still a good figure but just not good enough,

vcfan said,

how about that ipad sales hit thats bigger than the PC industrys. pcs are dying right?

PCs will not die, Tablets..... might be........

Astra.Xtreme said,
It's not selling well? No wai!!...
Pretty hard to twist the story when even the leader admits it.

As a company I would set goals and create budgets. Say at 5 million sales I would break even and would have paid for the development . By I fully expect to sell 50 million, so I budget for 50 million, with a target of 60 million.

I I sell 30-40 million I would have sold damn well, I would have made tons of money. BUT I wouldn't have sold well enough.


Seriously people talk about MS fanboys when they should look in the mirror and not be surprised to find an MS hater.

Astra.Xtreme said,

What's the difference then? The word "enough" doesn't change the meaning at all.

Oh no, not you again. Dude, your comprehension skills are atrocious. The word "enough" definitely changes the meaning of the sentence. If he said "Windows is not selling well" it would mean that it is not selling well compared to other operating systems or previous versions of windows. By saying "Windows is not selling well enough" he could mean that its selling better than all other operating systems but he still wants more.

That doesn't mean I think Windows 8 is selling well but Ballmer certainly never admitted it.

Stoffel said,
There is a difference between 'not selling well' and 'not selling well enough'

There is a difference between hair split ends and hair splitting.

M4x1mus said,

Oh no, not you again. Dude, your comprehension skills are atrocious. The word "enough" definitely changes the meaning of the sentence. If he said "Windows is not selling well" it would mean that it is not selling well compared to other operating systems or previous versions of windows. By saying "Windows is not selling well enough" he could mean that its selling better than all other operating systems but he still wants more.

That doesn't mean I think Windows 8 is selling well but Ballmer certainly never admitted it.


Dude? Okay, well at least I know I'm talking to a child...

But no, actually you are arbitrarily changing the frame of reference, which isn't reflected be using the word "enough". Like I said, "enough" is a filler word that means nothing in the context of it. Anybody that knows even the most basics of the English language knows this.

If you're going to try to insult me, at least hide your grade-school intelligence. Good try though...

Astra.Xtreme said,

Dude? Okay, well at least I know I'm talking to a child...

But no, actually you are arbitrarily changing the frame of reference, which isn't reflected be using the word "enough". Like I said, "enough" is a filler word that means nothing in the context of it. Anybody that knows even the most basics of the English language knows this.

If you're going to try to insult me, at least hide your grade-school intelligence. Good try though...

oh dear

vcfan said,
it isnt a filler word. it changes the meaning.

No it doesn't...
If the same person says "... not doing well" and "... not doing well enough", it means exactly the same thing. Both imply that a certain standard wasn't met, but it doesn't outright say what standard it was. And for that reason, it also implies that they both refer to the same standard. It doesn't say otherwise... And if it refers to the same standard, then the meanings are identical. You can't assume they are referring to two different standards, because the only grammatical difference between the two (the word "enough") doesn't in any way point toward that. The word "enough" in this context refers to some entity that wasn't mentioned. And because of that unknown, it's a filler word that means absolutely nothing.

You can't make an assumption on something that isn't there...

If you do well enough (to win the game), you also did well. It means exactly the same thing. If you didn't do well enough to win the championship, but did well and came in 2nd, then the meanings are different because two points of reference were mentioned. I can't possibly explain this any clearer. But like I said, this is English 101.

Edited by Astra.Xtreme, Jul 25 2013, 2:04pm :

you order a steak,and you want it cooked well done

you receive it, its rare,so you snap your fingers and say "garcon", and the garcon arrives

you look at him and say, look at my steak boi. he says, oh dear god,your steak is not cooked well. ill immediately take it back and get you another one

he gets you another steak. you cut it,and its cooked medium well. you think about it,and say "hmmm,my steak is not cooked well enough", but oh well close enough.im a little disappointed,but what the hell ill just eat it.

the first steak cooked way way too little,so the only way you can describe it is, its not cooked well, period. the second steak, it was close, so you would say not cooked well enough,because it was not completely off.

how would you say it in these situations? i bet the exact same way.

vcfan said,
you order a steak,and you want it cooked well done

you receive it, its rare,so you snap your fingers and say "garcon", and the garcon arrives

you look at him and say, look at my steak boi. he says, oh dear god,your steak is not cooked well. ill immediately take it back and get you another one

he gets you another steak. you cut it,and its cooked medium well. you think about it,and say "hmmm,my steak is not cooked well enough", but oh well close enough.im a little disappointed,but what the hell ill just eat it.

the first steak cooked way way too little,so the only way you can describe it is, its not cooked well, period. the second steak, it was close, so you would say not cooked well enough,because it was not completely off.

how would you say it in these situations? i bet the exact same way.

You're using the word completely different...
Your example is "well" as an adjective. The use of "well" in the story is an adverb.

Get the context straight, please...

Astra.Xtreme said,

You're using the word completely different...
Your example is "well" as an adjective. The use of "well" in the story is an adverb.

Get the context straight, please...

is cooked a noun or pronoun? how can well be an adjective? in this instance,well is changing the meaning of cooked,is it not? then its an adverb.

vcfan said,

is cooked a noun or pronoun? how can it be an adjective?

Why are you talking about that word? Perhaps you've forgotten what this discussion has been about from the beginning...

Astra.Xtreme said,

Why are you talking about that word? Perhaps you've forgotten what this discussion has been about from the beginning...

theres no difference in the meaning of well/well enough between my example,and the way its used in the article. im making a comparison so you can have another crack at seeing the difference between well/well enough.

vcfan said,

theres no difference in the meaning of well/well enough between my example,and the way its used in the article. im making a comparison so you can have another crack at seeing the difference between well/well enough.

*Facepalm* You used "well" to describe the level at which the steak is cooked. That is an ADJECTIVE. Then when you went on to say it wasn't cooked well enough, you're still referring to the level at which the steak is cooked. Sure you could argue that you can interchange and adjective and adverb to make different meanings, but if you are talking about a steak and say "not well enough", it obviously means the steak wasn't cooked to the level of wellness (adjective) you had requested. Telling them it's not well enough (referring to your standard, which is then an adverb), it makes no sense because they have no clue what your standard is. Thus you'd need to clarify your standard for it to make any sense.

But like I said, you're using the word completely different than how the article we're discussing did. Your argument is completely out of context...

you are completely wrong imo. it could only be an adjective if I said this is a well cooked steak.

this steak is cooked well = well is adverb.

even if I said this steak is well cooked,well is still an adverb.

and I see no difference in "windows is not selling well". well is used to describe the level in which windows is selling. substitute windows for steak,and selling with cooked,and you have the same damn thing.

if I am wrong,i have no problem admitting it. but I believe I am right on this one.

neonspark said,
it just means they hoped for more. still outselling everything out there, including windows 7
Forcing OEMs to ship Win 8 (that caused a collapse in PC sales) so you can claim they're selling "more Win 8 than Win 7". Great way to cut off your nose to spite your face.

vcfan said,
you are completely wrong imo. it could only be an adjective if I said this is a well cooked steak.

this steak is cooked well = well is adverb.

even if I said this steak is well cooked,well is still an adverb.

and I see no difference in "windows is not selling well". well is used to describe the level in which windows is selling. substitute windows for steak,and selling with cooked,and you have the same damn thing.

if I am wrong,i have no problem admitting it. but I believe I am right on this one.

Like I said, using the word "well" when talking about a steak, almost always describes the level at which it's cooked; an adjective. And I also said that you can interchange the adverb version in there to get a different meaning, but you are taking this out of context because you used the adjective version as part of your argument. We are only talking about the adverb version of the word.

So let's then use the adverb version of it for your steak example, and relate it to how it's used in the article. I can say, "this steak is cooked well" (implying that it meets my standard). If I also say, "this steak is cooked well enough", it also means that it met my standard. Much emphasis on the word "MY". That makes all the difference, and it gives the two phrases the exact same meaning. There's no way you can assume that the word "enough" magically changes the meaning such that it refers to somebody else's standard. That makes not a single bit of sense.

Astra.Xtreme said,

Like I said, using the word "well" when talking about a steak, almost always describes the level at which it's cooked; an adjective.

And I also said that you can interchange the adverb version in there to get a different meaning, but you are taking this out of context because you used the adjective version as part of your argument. We are only talking about the adverb version of the word.

So let's then use the adverb version of it for your steak example, and relate it to how it's used in the article. I can say, "this steak is cooked well" (implying that it meets my standard). If I also say, "this steak is cooked well enough", it also means that it met my standard. Much emphasis on the word "MY". That makes all the difference, and it gives the two phrases the exact same meaning. There's no way you can assume that the word "enough" magically changes the meaning such that it refers to somebody else's standard. That makes not a single bit of sense.

but,there is a frame of reference. we know the standard. we already have sales data. we know for a fact that this isn't "isn't selling well",because the last version was the highest selling version,so if youre selling the same amount, how can it be not selling well? it would be not selling well enough,since they probably had higher internal projections. doesn't that make sense?

Astra.Xtreme said,

No it doesn't...
If the same person says "... not doing well" and "... not doing well enough", it means exactly the same thing. Both imply that a certain standard wasn't met, but it doesn't outright say what standard it was. And for that reason, it also implies that they both refer to the same standard. It doesn't say otherwise... And if it refers to the same standard, then the meanings are identical. You can't assume they are referring to two different standards, because the only grammatical difference between the two (the word "enough") doesn't in any way point toward that. The word "enough" in this context refers to some entity that wasn't mentioned. And because of that unknown, it's a filler word that means absolutely nothing.

You can't make an assumption on something that isn't there...

If you do well enough (to win the game), you also did well. It means exactly the same thing. If you didn't do well enough to win the championship, but did well and came in 2nd, then the meanings are different because two points of reference were mentioned. I can't possibly explain this any clearer. But like I said, this is English 101.

It changed the meaning drastically, like I explained in my post before you even called it a filler word. and telling others their understanding of English is atrocious, when you don't grasp the funamental meaning of a word like "enough".


Tell me, if I'm going on a long road trip, which of these sentences wouldn't let me get our of the drive way, and which would require me to fill up more part of the way there?
I didn't fill my tank.
I didn't fill my tank enough.

do they mean the same ? no. is their contextual meaning the same as in the news post and they change the meaning of the sentence drastically in the same way ? yes.

startscreennope said,
Forcing OEMs to ship Win 8 (that caused a collapse in PC sales) so you can claim they're selling "more Win 8 than Win 7". Great way to cut off your nose to spite your face.

If you really believe that PC's are selling less because they ship with Windows 8 and not windows 7. you firstly need to look at stats starting long before the launch of windows 8 and how PC sales was already on a downward fall (natural since PC's in the last few years last a lot longer than older PC's from before 5 years ago). that or you're being willfully ignorant.

PC sales drop because people don't need new PC's they don't need to upgrade anymore. their 2, 3 even 4 year old PC is working just fine still. After the Core series CPU's the computers got fast enough to last a lot longer for the basic needs people need them for.

If I really believe that, then what? I think you forgot to include your insults to go with your falsehoods. Facts incoming to destroy yet another obnoxious, rude post full of falsehoods and personal attacks:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23251285

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media..._number_of_pc_sales_464.gif

Take a look at this image - guess where Windows 8 launch is? Yes, sales immediately plummeted after Windows 8 launched.

http://www.extremetech.com/com...itous-pc-decline-in-history

As for customers still looking for Windows 7 PCs and Laptops instead of Win 8? Yes, it is real, and there are dozens of articles aimed at helping people find them:

http://www.pcworld.com/article...indows-7-not-windows-8.html
http://www.usatoday.com/story/...ou-buy-windows-7-pc/1736529
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-3...ws-7-pcs-and-theyre-on-sale
http://www.bit.com.au/Guide/34...re-can-i-get-windows-7.aspx

Now, ready to apologize not only for being as wrong as possible, but for personally attacking me? Of course not, you'll flee and re-emerge on some other article, hoping to spread more falsehoods and personal attacks.

HawkMan said,

It changed the meaning drastically, like I explained in my post before you even called it a filler word. and telling others their understanding of English is atrocious, when you don't grasp the funamental meaning of a word like "enough".


Tell me, if I'm going on a long road trip, which of these sentences wouldn't let me get our of the drive way, and which would require me to fill up more part of the way there?
I didn't fill my tank.
I didn't fill my tank enough.

do they mean the same ? no. is their contextual meaning the same as in the news post and they change the meaning of the sentence drastically in the same way ? yes.

You are making the huge fundamental mistake of assuming different reference points... I've explained this over and over and over, so it's beyond me why you can't grasp such a simply concept...

Here's the same example except used in the correct context:
My gas tank is 1/4 full, and my task was to fill my tank completely, but I only filled it to 3/4. The somebody asks me if I completed the task. I can say both: "No, I didn't fill the tank" or "No, I didn't fill the tank enough". The goal was to fill the tank, so it's both not full and also not full enough. Both have the same meaning in that I didn't complete the task. Keep the reference points the same, and "enough" becomes a meaningless filler word. It's very simple...

vcfan said,

but,there is a frame of reference. we know the standard. we already have sales data. we know for a fact that this isn't "isn't selling well",because the last version was the highest selling version,so if youre selling the same amount, how can it be not selling well? it would be not selling well enough,since they probably had higher internal projections. doesn't that make sense?

You're assuming all these things that aren't present in what he said... Stop making assumptions and go back to the fundamentals of dialect.

Astra.Xtreme said,

You are making the huge fundamental mistake of assuming different reference points... I've explained this over and over and over, so it's beyond me why you can't grasp such a simply concept...

Here's the same example except used in the correct context:
My gas tank is 1/4 full, and my task was to fill my tank completely, but I only filled it to 3/4. The somebody asks me if I completed the task. I can say both: "No, I didn't fill the tank" or "No, I didn't fill the tank enough". The goal was to fill the tank, so it's both not full and also not full enough. Both have the same meaning in that I didn't complete the task. Keep the reference points the same, and "enough" becomes a meaningless filler word. It's very simple...

Unlike my example. your example doesn't share anything with the one made in the article though.

If you look at the ACTUAL windows 8 sales numbers you should see how ridiculous your "interpretation" is.

And actually you're wrong. If you filled the tank but only filled it to 3/4ths. instead of full you CAN NOT say "No, I didn't fill the tank".

maybe it's time to stop saying others are making fundamental mistakes, when you're making a basic one.

HawkMan said,

Unlike my example. your example doesn't share anything with the one made in the article though.

If you look at the ACTUAL windows 8 sales numbers you should see how ridiculous your "interpretation" is.

And actually you're wrong. If you filled the tank but only filled it to 3/4ths. instead of full you CAN NOT say "No, I didn't fill the tank".

maybe it's time to stop saying others are making fundamental mistakes, when you're making a basic one.

How do you figure? My example uses the word in it's adverb form just the same as the article is. You're making assumptions to things that aren't there. Dialect doesn't work on magic...

Again, you clearly don't understand what a reference point is... If you don't have the ability to understand that, then anything I try to explain to you is a lost cause...

Astra.Xtreme said,

You're assuming all these things that aren't present in what he said... Stop making assumptions and go back to the fundamentals of dialect.

im assuming these things because these are facts, that cannot be changed,spoken officially from the company.

Astra.Xtreme said,

How do you figure? My example uses the word in it's adverb form just the same as the article is. You're making assumptions to things that aren't there. Dialect doesn't work on magic...

Again, you clearly don't understand what a reference point is... If you don't have the ability to understand that, then anything I try to explain to you is a lost cause...


And what's your reference point ?

the very fact that he INCLUDED the word "enough" is the reference point. otherwise he woudl have said, Windows 8 isn't making money, Windows 8 is losing money.

what he said is windows 8 isn't selling enough (to reach our sales targets).

We know this because they have already stated this in the past, MS official statements have been that it's selling good and making money, outselling windows 7 even, but it's not reaching the targets they expected. unfortunately this is the result of a PC market where people aren't buying new PC's anymore because their old Core2Duos and their first gen i3's are more than fast enough for their purpose. they don't NEED a new expensive computer.

vcfan said,

im assuming these things because these are facts, that cannot be changed,spoken officially from the company.

No, that's not what I meant.
You're assuming that if he said "It hasn't sold well enough", it refers to standard #1. And then if he said "It hasn't sold well", it refers to standard #2.

My point is that you can't make those assumptions. You can't assume something that isn't there.

I don't care what the numbers say because it's not what we're discussing.

HawkMan said,

And what's your reference point ?

the very fact that he INCLUDED the word "enough" is the reference point. otherwise he woudl have said, Windows 8 isn't making money, Windows 8 is losing money.

what he said is windows 8 isn't selling enough (to reach our sales targets).

We know this because they have already stated this in the past, MS official statements have been that it's selling good and making money, outselling windows 7 even, but it's not reaching the targets they expected. unfortunately this is the result of a PC market where people aren't buying new PC's anymore because their old Core2Duos and their first gen i3's are more than fast enough for their purpose. they don't NEED a new expensive computer.

*facepalm* Wow this is actually getting a little sad. You've basically answered your own question...

"what he said is windows 8 isn't selling enough (to reach our sales targets)."

Good job, you've narrowed down a reference point. Now if he said "Windows 8 isn't selling well", it also references the sales targets that weren't reached. They are IDENTICAL...

I'm still baffled why you think the word "enough" would magically switch the reference to something else. Unless he physically said it, it's not there, so stop thinking otherwise...

holy ****,all those people above must be ****ed they keep getting notifications because of this bitching fest. keep it going.

vcfan said,
holy ****,all those people above must be ****ed they keep getting notifications because of this bitching fest. keep it going.

Haha, wow no kidding. There have been a lot of replies to this string.
Chalk up another one.

vcfan said,
holy ****,all those people above must be ****ed they keep getting notifications because of this bitching fest. keep it going.

No S***! Every time I come to look at a new story I've been met by notifications, thinking is this still going?.
Anyone got that fightingontheinternetispointless.jpg link around?

Astra.Xtreme said,
It's not selling well? No wai!!...
Pretty hard to twist the story when even the leader admits it.

and windows 8 is the reason

Astra.Xtreme said,

*facepalm* Wow this is actually getting a little sad. You've basically answered your own question...

"what he said is windows 8 isn't selling enough (to reach our sales targets)."

Good job, you've narrowed down a reference point. Now if he said "Windows 8 isn't selling well", it also references the sales targets that weren't reached. They are IDENTICAL...

I'm still baffled why you think the word "enough" would magically switch the reference to something else. Unless he physically said it, it's not there, so stop thinking otherwise...

God. Enough changes a sentence. Enough is a word used to set an personal expectation.

Not selling well = it's not selling well compared to everything else out there

Not selling well enough = it's not selling well compared to personal expectations

Astra.Xtreme said,

Dude? Okay, well at least I know I'm talking to a child...

But no, actually you are arbitrarily changing the frame of reference, which isn't reflected be using the word "enough". Like I said, "enough" is a filler word that means nothing in the context of it. Anybody that knows even the most basics of the English language knows this.

If you're going to try to insult me, at least hide your grade-school intelligence. Good try though...

Yes... Me saying the word "dude" makes me a child... Well done... My boss (who is in his mid 40s) says the word dude for Christ's sake. That's not to say you have to use it (each to his own and all that) but get rid of those outdated connotations you have with the word.

While dude is just a word that tells you very little about me, your response to it tells me a lot about you. If you're old, fair enough, otherwise, keep up dude, the word has been in popular use since the 70s.

Also, your response to everyone telling you that you are wrong is embarrassing. Even if you cant admit it here, at least admit it to yourself; you'll grow from it.

duhk said,

God. Enough changes a sentence. Enough is a word used to set an personal expectation.

Not selling well = it's not selling well compared to everything else out there

Not selling well enough = it's not selling well compared to personal expectations

Nope, you can't make those assumptions...
The word "enough" in no way magically refers to something personal. It might be "well enough" compared to anything in existence. We don't know, thus you can't assume.

M4x1mus said,

Also, your response to everyone telling you that you are wrong is embarrassing. Even if you cant admit it here, at least admit it to yourself; you'll grow from it.

Except I'm not the one wrong here and have proven it with exquisite detail...
You and the others have been making crude assumptions regarding how the word is used, and that completely defies the dynamics of the dialect.

I really don't care if you still refuse to comprehend the truth, but I've provided all the facts in my previous replies. The level of ignorance you portray is your choice...

vcfan said,
holy ****,all those people above must be ****ed they keep getting notifications because of this bitching fest. keep it going.

+100000. @_@.

Now that notifications are on top. They can't be easily ignored (which is a good thing). Hell. I discovered them a month ago... a couple of weeks before Neobond clog them up, up there.

startscreennope said,
This thread is amazing.

Umm, there's no such thing as an opinion on grammar. It's a discreet right or wrong...
Try again?

Astra.Xtreme said,

Nope, you can't make those assumptions...
The word "enough" in no way magically refers to something personal. It might be "well enough" compared to anything in existence. We don't know, thus you can't assume.

Yes it does, that's what the word is used for. Look it up bro. When I say it's not selling well "ENOUGH". It means I have a personal expectation that isn't met. There are no assumptions. My expectation isn't explicit, but saying "ENOUGH" just states I have one. It doesn't matter if the expectation is higher or lower to the competition.

duhk said,

Yes it does, that's what the word is used for. Look it up bro. When I say it's not selling well "ENOUGH". It means I have a personal expectation that isn't met. There are no assumptions. My expectation isn't explicit, but saying "ENOUGH" just states I have one. It doesn't matter if the expectation is higher or lower to the competition.

Wrong. The dictionary definition of "well enough" doesn't infer to anything personal.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Well+enough

Like the others, you're making assumptions...

Can we put this to rest yet? I'm the one here providing all the proof and nobody is even attempting to disprove any of it with anything except their incorrect opinions.

Astra.Xtreme said,

Except I'm not the one wrong here and have proven it with exquisite detail...
You and the others have been making crude assumptions regarding how the word is used, and that completely defies the dynamics of the dialect.

I really don't care if you still refuse to comprehend the truth, but I've provided all the facts in my previous replies. The level of ignorance you portray is your choice...

Wow... Pot. Kettle.

Think about it like this. A company could have a product that sells extremely well. The CEO could say "Product X is not selling enough" and still be correct, as "enough" could be any benchmark that he's chosen. It could be a goal of his, predictions from an analyst or any other point of comparison. All you know is that from his point of view, it isn't selling well enough.

Now, if the same CEO were to say "Product X is not selling well" then the statement wouldn't be true. The evidence says that the product is selling millions and far outselling the competition so how could this be true.

Do you see how the meanings differ?

If not I give up. Some people are just too stubborn to learn.

M4x1mus said,

Wow... Pot. Kettle.

Think about it like this. A company could have a product that sells extremely well. The CEO could say "Product X is not selling enough" and be correct, as "enough" could be any benchmark that he's chosen. It could be a goal of his, predictions from an analyst or any other point of comparison. All you know is that from his point of view, it isn't selling well enough.

Now, if the same CEO were to say "Product X is not selling well" then the statement wouldn't be true. The evidence says that the product is selling millions and far outselling the competition so how could this be true.

Do you see how the meanings differ?

If not. I give up, some people are just too stubborn to learn.

Once again, you're making assumptions that aren't there...

If it's not selling well enough, it's also not selling well. If it's not selling well, it's not selling enough. Hence the meanings are exactly the same. For the tenth or twentieth time, if the frame of reference isn't mentioned, you can't magically pick a different one for different phrases.

You might as well give up unless you have a physical reference that proves me wrong. I've yet to see one this whole time... Otherwise just please let it go for the sake of stopping the spam of notifications being littered around.

Astra.Xtreme said,

Once again, you're making assumptions that aren't there...

If it's not selling well enough, it's also not selling well. If it's not selling well, it's not selling enough. Hence the meanings are exactly the same. For the tenth or twentieth time, if the frame of reference isn't mentioned, you can't magically pick a different one for different phrases.

You might as well give up unless you have a physical reference that proves me wrong. I've yet to see one this whole time... Otherwise just please let it go for the sake of stopping the spam of notifications being littered around.

The words are right there in your post, but for some reason you don't understand it.

If it's not selling well, it's not selling well enough. : True
If it's not selling well enough, it's also not selling well : False

It may be selling well but not enough to break a sales record for example. That's not me making an assumption, that's me giving an example of where it might be selling well but not selling well enough. "Enough" implies a goal or target.

I'm done now. I don't even care if you understand anymore.

M4x1mus said,

The words are right there in your post, but for some reason you don't understand it.

If it's not selling well, it's not selling well enough. : True
If it's not selling well enough, it's also not selling well : False

It may be selling well but not enough to break a sales record for example. That's not me making an assumption, that's me giving an example of where it might be selling well but not selling well enough. "Enough" implies a goal or target.

I'm done now. I don't even care if you understand anymore.

Wow, this is beyond the point of being sad. Stop making the comparison based on two different reference points. Of course it would have different meanings if you actually list them out, but the article in no way does that. Why is it so difficult for you to grasp such a simple concept?

Astra.Xtreme said,

Wrong. The dictionary definition of "well enough" doesn't infer to anything personal.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Well+enough

Like the others, you're making assumptions...

Can we put this to rest yet? I'm the one here providing all the proof and nobody is even attempting to disprove any of it with anything except their incorrect opinions.

You argue that the word "Enough" doesn't change the dynamics or meaning of a sentence. Why are you giving me the definition to "Well Enough" even though it still doesn't back up your argument.

"Is your coffee hot enough?"
"Is your coffee hot?"

Are those 2 questions not different? I say it is. If you don't think so, then you should go back to school.