Editorial

Calling Windows 8 the next Vista makes you look like an idiot

The next person who says that Windows 8 is the next Vista deserves to be kicked in the shin, twice. The context for making this comparison is so far off-base that by saying it, not only does it make you sound dumb, but it lowers the IQ of those around you. If you need a few examples of folks calling Windows 8 the next Vista, here you go (1, 2, 3, 4, 5).

Windows 8 could flop, it could sell only three units, but that’s not the point when you make a comparison to Vista which was a black mark on Microsoft for a host of other reasons. The point is that Vista tanked because of stability, vendor support and, ultimately, consumer perception of the platform, not because it tried to change the game dramatically like the approach of Windows 8.

Take Windows 8 for a spin. It will not crash. Vendor support is solid (albeit still growing) but it is radically different. For those who used Vista, you will remember the painful days of having no drivers available for your hardware or you used buggy drivers that caused more crashes than Adobe Flash.

Windows 8 is dramatically different and has significant variations when compared to previous Windows platforms which is why it could tank harder than a Russian nuclear sub during the Cold War. Consumers initially don’t like change, but are typically quite good at accepting it over the long term. Windows 8 will likely follow that path: complaints up front, followed by acceptance. If users will adopt Windows 8 on the same scale as Windows 7 remains a question that will be answered in the coming years.

Despite the loud, and sometimes uneducated, rants about Windows 8, it is nothing like Vista. The next time someone says Windows 8 is the next Vista, make sure to call them out for the inability to create an original and accurate thought.

Image Credit: Deviant Art

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Oh, and double LOL for those that skipped 7 just because XP still has life. Here's your Windows 8, and massive learning curve businesses.

I block kicks with my shin LOL. Or grab them, and take you down.

Anyways, Windows 8 won't get exceptional sales during the period between pre-orders and EOL of 7. That's my prediction, having tried both that and Server 2012 on VirtualBox.

we're being given an OS geared towards tablets but, we on Laptops are supposed "learn to get by or learn our way through it?" innovation is actually giving the people what they want, with improvements. Windows 8 is innovation as the dictionary term applies. But to what market? I don't see many people (regular people NOT IT people) liking this.


no, i would never call it that. vista is actually decently functional and doesn't require extra clicks to do the same tasks than that of win8. i would never think vista is worse than win8. in fact, its way better!

There are many improvements to like in Win8. But the way that MS allowed its "UI experts" to ruin the desktop usability is inexplicable and inexcusable.

Accessing the charms is far too hard if you're running Win8 in a window (virtual machine or remote access).
And the Start Screen is NOT the same as the start button - it dumps all shortcuts in a disorganised unstructured mess.

When people install a few apps and then have multiple panes all labelled "Uninstall" - without saying what, because the associated folder is missing - they will come to see the problem.

It's all mad and unnecessary because if, in Win8, you have a look at
C:\Users\Default\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu
you'll find - yes - the old start menu structure. (No doubt still there for compatibility when installing 'nonModern' software. Which we will all do for years to come).

Why MS had to #### off so many users, when the start button could easily have been retained as an option, is astonishing. So much else to like. The "UI experts" should be fired. But thank goodness for Start8. Hopefully Win9 will overcome this mess.

Okay, am I an idiot too? I'm Spartacus, and I'm an idiot. In good company.

gb8080 said,

Why MS had to #### off so many users, when the start button could easily have been retained as an option, is astonishing. So much else to like. The "UI experts" should be fired. But thank goodness for Start8. Hopefully Win9 will overcome this mess.

Why? So it can live to die another day? Why leave the code in there when the Start Screen does what the Menu did and more? Why create such a dis-jointed UX like that? The Start Menu isn't coming back. There's no need for it to. It was broken.

Edited by Dot Matrix, Sep 20 2012, 2:38am :

Dot Matrix said,

Why? So it can live to die another day? Why leave the code in there when the Start Screen does what the Menu did and more? Why create such a dis-jointed UX like that? The Start Menu isn't coming back. There's no need for it to. It was broken.

The only thing that's broken is the record you keep trying to play. We get it, okay? You're a full-on Metrotard and you have a compulsion to "correct" anyone who dares to critique the many flaws of Windows 8.

Dot Matrix said,

Why leave the code in there when the Start Screen does what the Menu did and more? Why create such a dis-jointed UX like that? The Start Menu isn't coming back. There's no need for it to. It was broken.

I gave reasons why the Start Screen does NOT do what the Menu did. You just ignore them. Meanwhile you say the Start Menu was broken but give no reasons.
What's the point of reasoning with people who just make unsupported assertions?

gb8080 said,

I gave reasons why the Start Screen does NOT do what the Menu did. You just ignore them. Meanwhile you say the Start Menu was broken but give no reasons.
What's the point of reasoning with people who just make unsupported assertions?

I did give reasons. You can read them here: http://www.neowin.net/forum/to...dows-start-menu-discussion/

As for your "many tiles" problem, have you even used Windows 8 to say that? Because I have yet to see that problem. Windows will clean up the "mess", but only because app developers will have cleaned up their act, not with Microsoft bringing back the Start Menu.

gb8080 said,

I gave reasons why the Start Screen does NOT do what the Menu did. You just ignore them. Meanwhile you say the Start Menu was broken but give no reasons.
What's the point of reasoning with people who just make unsupported assertions?

It took some searching, but here: http://www.neowin.net/forum/to...iew__findpost__p__595147185 Is where you can go and read about icon clutter. Microsoft addressed this "issue" months ago.

Windows Nashville said,

The only thing that's broken is the record you keep trying to play. We get it, okay? You're a full-on Metrotard and you have a compulsion to "correct" anyone who dares to critique the many flaws of Windows 8.

You can go and read my reasons on why the Start Menu was broken. Calling me a "Metrotard" does nothing.

Dot Matrix said,

It took some searching, but here: http://www.neowin.net/forum/to...iew__findpost__p__595147185 Is where you can go and read about icon clutter. Microsoft addressed this "issue" months ago.

It doesn't address Icon clutter.
Here's some real-world data. My Win7 desktop at work (and I am not a Developer or IT professional) has a number of apps installed.
I looked at the folder C:\Users\All Users\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs
I have 44 folders in there - so my Start Menu comes up with 44 folders.
BUT within them, I have 230 links. That's an average of more than 5 links per app.
So if I reinstalled within Win9 (these are all 'nonModern' 'nonMetro' apps), I am going to get 230 tiles. And they would all be dumped higgeldy-piggeldy over the desktop, bridging the groupings used in Metro.
That's absurd, that's why I want a Start Menu structure, that's why I am grateful for Start8, that's why I cannot understand why the "UI experts" who designed Metro were stupid enough not to provide a Start Button OPTION.

In Software Engineering measurable procedures are in place to ensure learning curve of a software product is low and maximum productivity can be reached by setting appropriate benchmarks or metrics. This is only a small part of the whole software engineering life cycle. What we have in Windows 8 is the case where productivity and user-experience, in terms of learning, have been undermined in favour of the market circumstances.

Microsoft has been extremely deceptive with Windows 7.x where they approved phones to be sold with only 256MB of RAM and put it as something advantageous somehow. Anyone with a little technical knowledge in computing would know to process content, data, and running processes RAM and a lot of is required. The whole Windows Phone 7 was a pilot project to Microsoft knowing in advance or early into it that they've gotten many things wrong. This new Tile UI is indeed very primitive, distracting, serves limited functionality, not customisable, and it will eventually becomes a boredom. I wouldn't be surprised if it did turn people into zombies -- just kidding -- just a little bit though. Who wants to look at the same layout every time turns on the phone during 24 months contract? The Tile design also reminds me of the web design era where excessive gif animations were used to the point I couldn't view the page more than a minute.

It was indeed my worst nightmare when I found out Microsoft has decided to port the same concept to the next Desktop Windows version. Microsoft must feel very insecure to feel they ought to do something radical to be differentiated when its rivals, virtually, used the same basic concept of Desktop (Shortcuts + Multiple Desktop Pages) with some extra useful features that suited the touch screen devices.

Users have different use for the same product. This is where productivity is dramatically reduced when groups of users have different need for instance. With this Tile design we have the very case where many users have reported didn't like the new design because to get the same things done is much harder now. Windows 7 and the previous versions of Windows didn't divide users when it came down to its Desktop design experience. When Vista came out users that didn't like the Aero could simply turn it off. So in this term Microsoft has failed big time with Win8.

Believe it or not there is much more into this fiasco than it meets the eyes. I keep asking myself, how that is possible a company like Microsoft with huge user data experience at their disposal can get things so wrong? I've been closely watching the industry and a trend is emerging like no other times before. AOL is the first company ever attempted to create what is known now as ecosystem today but they failed which Microsoft massively contributed to that and I always praised them for it. Sadly, Microsoft is in the process of creating such ecosystem as well. Apple and Google have already successfully created their own ecosystems and Amazon is already ahead of Microsoft in many terms.

Microsoft is now looking to turn its OS variations as closed-system as possible. Intel has already created its first chip [Clover Tail Atom] that only works with Windows and this is evident how things are developing in Microsoft. I would say the Tile design helps to protect the underlying OS because it was designed from ground up with this point in mind. Think of the new UI also as a shield to prevent experienced users, eventually, from accessing forensic data in Windows for instance. If you didn't know Microsoft provides Forensic Tools to law enforcement agencies to dig out all kind of information from your computers, these include every external devices you ever connected to your computer, serial number of hard drives, and so many other things. Windows Registry is where most information is obtained from. Windows App Store, SkyDrive, Skype, Azure, Live/Hotmail/Outlook services, XBox, and Bing are some of the products that will help Microsoft in creating a closed-ecosystem.

The industry is changing and that is not because you and I demanded it whereas it is all about corporates expanding and maintaining their market dominance in rivalry to other corporates. Corporation system is like a train with no breaks.

Finally, the innovation has been descending in I.T. for the past ten years and any success story owns its success to the prior innovations. This impetus to over protection where ecosystem servers as a mean to protect assets, market shares, and locking users in.

Don't you think for an idiot I know too much?

At least Vista was pretty even if was defective. Windows 8 under "Metro" is UGLY...... Right now I'm using Windows 8 UX on my Windows 7 32 bit (Because my 3.4GHz P4 won't run Windows 8) and I've hardly used the "Metro" UI.

I've been using Windows 8 for 7 months on a tablet PC, there is no going back once the industry crosses over to touch computers and apps.

Some people are early adopters, some people are late adopters. In the end we are all going in the same direction together. For Windows users this is just step 1 in the process of NUI replacing GUI.

Windows 8 is rightfully a controversial topic because it's an OS that was built for your next computer, not just for the computer you're using today.

Avatar Roku said,
I've been using Windows 8 for 7 months on a tablet PC, there is no going back once the industry crosses over to touch computers and apps.

Some people are early adopters, some people are late adopters. In the end we are all going in the same direction together. For Windows users this is just step 1 in the process of NUI replacing GUI.

Windows 8 is rightfully a controversial topic because it's an OS that was built for your next computer, not just for the computer you're using today.

If its for the next computer then they should include a discount for buying one when one gets Windows 8. [Note: Sarcasm]

That this "editorial" is STILL on the front page and tagged as an "editorial" after it was reported over 16 hours ago just confirms one thing to me, Neowin mods and Neowin have nothing but contempt for its readership.

Oh wait, let me rephrase that, they have contempt for anyone who doesnt toe the party (Microsoft) line and act sheeple like for Windows 8. And they like to troll the people they are supposed to assist with moderation.

Ill be leaving today and not coming back.

Between the unprofessionalism and the sheer amount of Pro Microsoft bs and unbelievable troll population (which includes a surprising number of mods), i'm over it.

Only a sadist would continue on here.

I just registered after reading Neowin for about a decade, just in order to make this post.
There have been many articles, or "editorials" (more accurately "troll posts") that annoyed me throughout the years, but this is the straw that broke the camel's back.

Neowin deciding not to do anything about this article by an editor who insults not just people's intelligence, but literally insults them grade-school-style, after getting more than enough complaints, tells me I need to get away from here as soon as possible. I agree with the poster above, only a sadist would continue on here.

Therefore, I'd like to ask you for recommendations of other news sources in the style of Neowin or Slashdot. I've had a hard time finding any good news sources with this content, without too much other stuff mixed in or low quality content. So, please help me to move away from here. I'm serious and this is not a sarcastic comment.

Thanks in advance.

LiquidCrystalMeth said,
That this "editorial" is STILL on the front page and tagged as an "editorial" after it was reported over 16 hours ago just confirms one thing to me, Neowin mods and Neowin have nothing but contempt for its readership.

Oh wait, let me rephrase that, they have contempt for anyone who doesnt toe the party (Microsoft) line and act sheeple like for Windows 8. And they like to troll the people they are supposed to assist with moderation.

Ill be leaving today and not coming back.

Between the unprofessionalism and the sheer amount of Pro Microsoft bs and unbelievable troll population (which includes a surprising number of mods), i'm over it.

Only a sadist would continue on here.

What are you on? Why are you taking this personally? Did Windows 8 kill your dog or something? Listen, a lot has changed over the years, and the PC space is wholly different from what it was when Windows 95 debuted. PCs have expanded beyond their horizons, and have become intertwined in our lives. They're not something that just sits on the corner desk anymore. It's time they had a modern OS running on them, so that they can continue to expand. Microsoft is attacked everyday by Apple, Google, and soon to be Amazon. Tell me again why they should not change to compete with those threats? Why is that so hard to understand? Are techies this out of touch with reality?

Dot Matrix said,

What are you on? Why are you taking this personally? Did Windows 8 kill your dog or something? Listen, a lot has changed over the years, and the PC space is wholly different from what it was when Windows 95 debuted. PCs have expanded beyond their horizons, and have become intertwined in our lives. They're not something that just sits on the corner desk anymore. It's time they had a modern OS running on them, so that they can continue to expand. Microsoft is attacked everyday by Apple, Google, and soon to be Amazon. Tell me again why they should not change to compete with those threats? Why is that so hard to understand? Are techies this out of touch with reality?

Good to see that Neowin's #1 Metrotard is on the case. You sure told him off.

Windows Nashville said,

Good to see that Neowin's #1 Metrotard is on the case. You sure told him off.

Good to see a logical, thought-out post, retorted with an ad-hominem. You must be so proud of yourself. Doesn't change the facts, though.

If you tell me I can be more productive and my games play better, I may considering switching. I've tried the preview and it was garbage, enough said.

I've been using Windows 8 since the consumer preview version. As with most things, I wanted to form my own, unbiased opinion. At first, I was annoyed with the new ui, but I still continued using win8 daily. Right when I was about to reinstall win7, I was given a second monitor (old piece of crap but still useful). This is where I'm glad I didn't get to uninstall win8. Multi-monitor setups on win8 are great. Since then I haven't thought about going back to win7. Comparing windows 8 to vista just doesn't seem valid anymore. And the general opinions of those who hate the modern ui? Well...their opinions were never valid to me in the first place. Use it and decide for yourself.

I'm a computer maniac who stays on his computer 14 hours everyday from the age of 6 years old and I can tell you in my professional opinion Windows 8 is the fastest most stable and solid Windows OS as of date.

I think that some people say that Windows 8 is the next Vista because:
a) http://www.vincentabry.com/wp-...oads/2011/09/Windows-OS.jpg
b) Windows 8 have a lot of similarities with Windows Phone 7 which is a compete piece of s**t, abandoned by developers and only good for people who don't know better.

A lot of professionals simply hate new design. From first screenshots you could assume that first intention of Microsoft was to please acid users. I guess, that a lot of copies will be pushed trough channels where customers have no choice, Win8 Phone OS and Desktop OS will be mixed in the statistics so Microsoft could announce how popular Win8 is. We will see.

EJocys said,
I think that some people say that Windows 8 is the next Vista because:

b) Windows 8 have a lot of similarities with Windows Phone 7 which is a compete piece of s**t, abandoned by developers and only good for people who don't know better.

Lol. Can you show me where that is the case? I know many, many people who have a Windows Phone and love it.

>> I have almost read all the comments and many users have
>> said the right things regarding the subjec
Translates “they agree with me”

>> Not exactly very 'smart' of a Senior Editor to imply what
>> should happen to people who think Windows 8 would have the
>> same unpopularity as Vista. What people should do to the editor
>> if it turned out people were right?
Its an EDITORIAL you know what they are? An editorial, leading article, or leader is an opinion piece written by the senior editorial staff or publisher of a newspaper or magazine. Editorials may be supposed to reflect the opinion of the periodical.

So if he wants to say “iPhone 5 is better than Lumia 920l, OS X it so much better than Windows 8, and all business need to ditch upgrading to Sever 2012 and instead install OS X Server”, well as it is an EDITORIAL, otherwise known as opinion.

Hold on, I have to pause while I wipe the bile away after vomiting so much apple crap.

>> If Apple's Walled Garden model was the reason many used
>> Windows why then Microsoft is implementing exactly the same model now?
The wall exists on Windows RT not on Windows 8 or Windows 8 PRO.

>> When a features (Star Button + Desktop Shortcuts) are removed from
>> Windows and immediately alternative solutions both freely and commercially
>> became available then it only proves how poor the decision was, if not embarrassing
Hmmm WALLED GARDEN.. I thought you said it was a WALLED GARDEN. I agree that the decision to remove the bottom is annoying for me, as it was don't to make the new gui take up faster. But as you say apps are available to install to change this so as you so succinctly make the point there is no WALLED GARDEN.

>> In your 2011 interview you said things have changed since Windows 7.
>> Nothing actually radically or revolutionary has been changed in desktop
>> platforms, nothing that Microsoft feel they need to innovate to catch up
>> with Apple.
Have you really used full Windows 8 or one of the tests; you are sucking my will to live, I don't have time to note down all the new things in win 8 verses win 7.

>> Developers prefer Win7 and personally never submit anything to Microsoft App Store
Hmm they personally or you mean you personally.

>> and as far as I can tell half of users who comment, other than on Microsoft
>> owned sites, are unhappy with the UI changes.
“Here be Trolls” .. is that name familiar to you? Ohh wait you're going to call me a troll aren't you.

>> Considering some factors (i.e., Ownership cost, Usability, Requirements
>> , Applications, Availability)
Q: Ownership cost
A: It is cheap to buy new, and It is cheaper still to upgrade.
Q: Usability
A: It has a massive and stable unified driver.
Q: Requirements
A: On computers running XP, Vista, and even Windows 7 will run faster on Windows 8
Q: Applications
A: On Win 8 pro anything in will run, on win 8 more and more are being developed.

>> in my opinion Microsoft made it easier for users to choose a platform
>> other than Microsoft's.
Of cause … this is your EDITORIAL, now I understand, I would be as miffed as you if someone had supplemented their EDITORIAL for my own one.

>> Windows 8 will be a strong platform for the gamers.
>> Is Microsoft becoming an entertainment company?
Realy !!! that's your best closing augment against windows 8. Microsoft has created a strong game eco system both on PC and Xbox. They sponsored or paid for game development. Even now many games are being developed for Windows 8, not just tile based games for RT ( I have little interest in) but full blown Windows 8 PRO games
Microsoft are opening a new London based entertainment game studio to be focussed on Windows 8 tablets, and that it will be former Rare Production Director Lee Schuneman.

I am just curious :- ), did you write your EDITORIAL on MacBook Pro or an a Chrombook?

Here I am again submitting another post -- hopefully for the last time for this Editorial post. I apologise in advance if I'm being annoying.

I have almost read all the comments and many users have said the right things regarding the subject but the problem is points within comments are often lost or not communicated well. Here is my attempt to provide the same points of view I also share with others plus some additional thoughts.

- No experienced user would ever argue Vista technically was a failure in relation to Windows 8 discussions
- The Vista was only used to highlight its lack of popularity among Windows users, nothing more and nothing less. Steve Ballmer had been quoted as saying Vista ‘just not executed well'. Source: http://www.techi.com/2010/05/b...or-windows-vista-bout-time/
- Not exactly very 'smart' of a Senior Editor to imply what should happen to people who think Windows 8 would have the same unpopularity as Vista. What people should do to the editor if it turned out people were right?

I think the above three points are mainly what we would like to let Brad Sams to know. Additionally, I would like to add some more points that I'm sure have already been discussed before one way or other and these are;

- If Apple's Walled Garden model was the reason many used Windows why then Microsoft is implementing exactly the same model now?
- Why should users stay with Microsoft now that there are at least two other Walled Garden models to choose from? These are Apple and Google (not as transparent as one can see). Amazon will be the third company that will severely put a dent in Microsoft products
- When a features (Star Button + Desktop Shortcuts) are removed from Windows and immediately alternative solutions both freely and commercially became available then it only proves how poor the decision was, if not embarrassing
- In your 2011 interview you said things have changed since Windows 7. Nothing actually radically or revolutionary has been changed in desktop platforms, nothing that Microsoft feel they need to innovate to catch up with Apple. May I remind you all the changes have been in Mobile platforms?
- Who Windows 8 design is targeted for? Businesses are not exactly a fan of the UI, Developers prefer Win7 and personally never submit anything to Microsoft App Store, and as far as I can tell half of users who comment, other than on Microsoft owned sites, are unhappy with the UI changes.
- Considering some factors (i.e., Ownership cost, Usability, Requirements, Applications, Availability), in my opinion Microsoft made it easier for users to choose a platform other than Microsoft's.
- Windows 8 will be a strong platform for the gamers. Is Microsoft becoming an entertainment company?
- I'm just curious, did you write the article after attending an exciting meeting about Windows 8?

Zebelious said,
Here I am again submitting another post -- hopefully for the last time for this Editorial post. I apologise in advance if I'm being annoying.
I think the above three points are mainly what we would like to let Brad Sams to know. Additionally, I would like to add some more points that I'm sure have already been discussed before one way or other and these are;

- If Apple's Walled Garden model was the reason many used Windows why then Microsoft is implementing exactly the same model now?
- Why should users stay with Microsoft now that there are at least two other Walled Garden models to choose from? These are Apple and Google (not as transparent as one can see). Amazon will be the third company that will severely put a dent in Microsoft products
- When a features (Star Button + Desktop Shortcuts) are removed from Windows and immediately alternative solutions both freely and commercially became available then it only proves how poor the decision was, if not embarrassing
- In your 2011 interview you said things have changed since Windows 7. Nothing actually radically or revolutionary has been changed in desktop platforms, nothing that Microsoft feel they need to innovate to catch up with Apple. May I remind you all the changes have been in Mobile platforms?
- Who Windows 8 design is targeted for? Businesses are not exactly a fan of the UI, Developers prefer Win7 and personally never submit anything to Microsoft App Store, and as far as I can tell half of users who comment, other than on Microsoft owned sites, are unhappy with the UI changes.
- Considering some factors (i.e., Ownership cost, Usability, Requirements, Applications, Availability), in my opinion Microsoft made it easier for users to choose a platform other than Microsoft's.
- Windows 8 will be a strong platform for the gamers. Is Microsoft becoming an entertainment company?
- I'm just curious, did you write the article after attending an exciting meeting about Windows 8?

This proves many here are out of touch with reality.


Zebelious said,
- If Apple's Walled Garden model was the reason many used Windows why then Microsoft is implementing exactly the same model now?
- Why should users stay with Microsoft now that there are at least two other Walled Garden models to choose from? These are Apple and Google (not as transparent as one can see). Amazon will be the third company that will severely put a dent in Microsoft products

So if Microsoft is being attacked at all angles, tell me again why they shouldn't fight back with their own marketplace? what an asinine statement to make. What do you want them to do? Roll over and die?

Zebelious said,
- When a features (Star Button + Desktop Shortcuts) are removed from Windows and immediately alternative solutions both freely and commercially became available then it only proves how poor the decision was, if not embarrassing

The decision was announced on here to technical in nature for the removal, and frankly, it was one that was needed. The Start Menu was a mess, technologically outdated, and not salvageable without a complete re-write. Which is exactly what the Start Screen is.

Zebelious said,
- In your 2011 interview you said things have changed since Windows 7. Nothing actually radically or revolutionary has been changed in desktop platforms, nothing that Microsoft feel they need to innovate to catch up with Apple. May I remind you all the changes have been in Mobile platforms?

Not true. Since the Windows 95 UI was developed, there have been many, *many* changes to the desktop. First, their role has expanded. My HTPC can tell you that I don't need a desktop there, using the mouse only UI is cumbersome. Second, new technologies have been developed that beg for a new UI to play with them. You're certainly not going to be using the Start Menu with Kinect or touch screen All In One.

Zebelious said,
- Who Windows 8 design is targeted for? Businesses are not exactly a fan of the UI, Developers prefer Win7 and personally never submit anything to Microsoft App Store, and as far as I can tell half of users who comment, other than on Microsoft owned sites, are unhappy with the UI changes.

Everybody. Again, see my comment above. There have been many changes in the PC space over the years that are begging for a modern OS. To ignore these and continue down a path of unsustainability would be idiotic.

Zebelious said,
- Considering some factors (i.e., Ownership cost, Usability, Requirements, Applications, Availability), in my opinion Microsoft made it easier for users to choose a platform other than Microsoft's.

Ok, do you have proof? Last time I checked, Windows is still Windows, and offers a healthy ecosystem compared with Apple and Linux. Linux offers nothing at all, and Apple, seems to be stuck in the 90's in terms of OS X.

Yes, comparing Windows-8 to VISTA is similar to comparing apples to oranges. However...Windows-8 is geared to an entirely different marketplace/user model than VISTA. Windows-8 is for smartphones, tablets and gamers--not full-blown PCs. VISTA and Windows-7 are for laptops/desktops.

Windows 8 is the next Vista no doubt about it! In terms of general dislike not technicalities! I went ahead and ordered 3 copies of Windows 7 just in case! My future builds will be Windows 7, laptops will be Mac OSX, courtesy of the MacBook Pro.

LOL really.. Why did you do that? Windows 7 is not going to stop selling anytime soon. You will have downgrade rights from Widows 8 to Windows 7 if you want them.

But if your laptops will be Mac, why not your desktops? I smell the blood of a Maclander, from the hinterlands of Mac Troll clan.

I understand that it is neoWIN (ie pro Windows and all things Microsoft), but calling people idiots for disliking something you openly promote and are alligned to, is disgraceful

Its an EDITORIAL you know what they are? An editorial, leading article, or leader is an opinion piece written by the senior editorial staff or publisher of a newspaper or magazine. Editorials may be supposed to reflect the opinion of the periodical.

In short he can say what he likes. That's what editorial are for. If you don't like it go someplace that supports your chosen OS.

Win8 is all about the app store. Is the underlying Windows OS different? Yes, but not radically so. Win8's success [or lack thereof] depends on how well it meets the goals Microsoft set -- it may well be that Microsoft doesn't expect, isn't shooting for win7-like results in the marketplace. It could even be that after win7 failed to dislodge the entire, sizable band of XP holdouts, MS decided it wasn't worth much effort pursuing users of older Windows versions -- give them a decent price & if that's not enough, screw 'em. Microsoft like Intel felt that they had to have a seat at the cell phone/tablet table -- unlike Intel, MS had to put a lot more effort into it. So MS took what might have been separate efforts & merged them a bit, shooting for an app store they might multipurpose segments of for their Xbox, designed win8 to create a market for that app store, ala Apple, & preserved the underpinnings of Windows that have been around in basic form since Vista, at the same time preserving their normal, incremental Windows development process. Whether win8 sales are good/bad it makes good biz sense.

Calling Windows 8 the next Vista makes you look like an idiot

It all depends on your perceptions... From a tech perspective, it might be accurately said -- Vista was a dramatic departure from the way Windows worked with XP, & the core of win8 isn't a similarly radical move away from the way things work in Vista or win7. In that respect, it's Vista v. 3.0. If sales tank, on that basis alone a valid comparison could be made to a few Windows versions. Basing a comparison on a particular set of criteria is also fine, as long as that criteria is clearly stated. Assuming your set of criteria is the only valid set is a lot more iffy. When someone(s) make(s) a statement like win8 = Vista without backing that statement up with specifics, asking for specifics is fine, deploring the lack of specifics is fine, assuming they're idiots is not. I could assume your feet stink, your breath smells, & your knees look funny, But I Wouldn't because 1) I have no evidence of that, 2) it would be mean spirited, & 3) it would/could serve no good purpose. Calling people idiots, calling on others to do the same, simply reveals the hater within. All Haters are IMHO ugly.

mikiem said,
Win8 is all about the app store. ....

You have a good grasp of the situation.

The problem is always that MS take away the right of consumers to choose by pushing them in their way. They will force manufacturer to stop selling Win 7 and force-feed Win 8.

Just like back in the Vista days, sales will look good on paper but they will not show how many people dump Win 8 two weeks after buying a new laptop and go back to Win 7.

Captain555 said,

You have a good grasp of the situation.

The problem is always that MS take away the right of consumers to choose by pushing them in their way. They will force manufacturer to stop selling Win 7 and force-feed Win 8.

Just like back in the Vista days, sales will look good on paper but they will not show how many people dump Win 8 two weeks after buying a new laptop and go back to Win 7.

Funny people don't have a problem with this otherwise, when Windows 7 or XP was being sold. Windows 8 still has Windows 7 downgrade rights.

Tiir said,
You have down grade rights to Windows 7 ... who is forcing you?

Downgrade right only apply to Professional Version. They don't apply to the Home version.

Julius Caro said,
calling people idiots make you look like an idiot too.

and you saying he looks like an idiot while he said it makes you sound like an idiot makes you smell like an idiot.

"Windows 8 will be worst than Vista", so in a way it is wrong to call W8 the next Vista -- it's an insult to Vista.

Does this makes me idiot-er?
How many punches do I deserve?

What a stupid articl... I mean, "Editorial".

Actually it's probably going to be the next Vista. Not the next ME as in bugs. Vista never a thing wrong with Vista. So yeah it could be the next Vista in messaging. But if you take the line that Vista was a bad program. Sure need a chin kick. But since Vista was a great OS.. Windows 8 will become the next Vista because of the same bad word of mouth that was with Vista. Personally Windows 8 Minimum specs must have touch screen. Otherwise it'll end up in the Vista corner. Thing can't work without a touch screen properly.

A little research in our beloved Senior News Editor [Brad Sams] revealed the followings;

"He is also a Financial Consultant to Fortune 200 companies"

I envy you, maybe not because obviously you are not making any money in that field, otherwise you wouldn't had the time to write.

"MBA Student"

Wish you the best.

"obsessed with the convergence of technology in the corporate environment"

Neowin is not a corporate environment but we already know you like corporate environments such as Microsoft's.

"Microsoft, in general, has always been big at Neowin and I am continuing to focus on that genre to keep our readers happy."

Keeping readers happy or Microsoft? We know how big Microsoft is at Neowin.

"I am excited to see the new features with the new UI and watch Microsoft step outside of its comfort zone with Metro."

Why? What was wrong with Win7 UI? Other than the new task bar made it harder to switch between running applications in real world.

"Saying what Windows 7 should have had is a bit hard as things have changed since it first launched. I hope to see in Windows 8 seamless integration with the cloud."

Cloud = Remote Servers with hosting applications as services. There is nothing new in Cloud other than a new fancy name.

When you were asked what you would like to see addressed in Windows 8? You didn't mention the UI because you knew there wasn't anything wrong with it realy but instead mentioned seamless cloud integration in which it may introduce security and user privacy issues in particular for the 80% of the users that always lean on the other 20% to get anything working securely and properly.

I can go on forever but I guess readers get the point anyway.

Source: http://www.windows8update.com/...n-interview-with-brad-sams/

P.S. After this post I will remove neowin from my bookmarks and I may visit very occasionally from now on. Thank you to all the past and current descent Neowin writers. The Microsoft obsession is way too much for me to stomach.

This article is absurd. Neowin why are you letting Brad use your front page as his own personal blog? Calling people idiots really? This is the sort of post I'd expect at Gizmodo. This post is the journalistic equivalent of a street corner, "hey baby, I'll go all the way for some page views" pathetic childish nonsense.

I used Vista for a long time and had zero problems out of it. About everyone I knew had very little to no problems out of it.

Think Vista's main problem was people. A lot of people didn't use it, they just heard it sucked so they believed it. It was "Billy Bob from down the road told me it sucked! He's a good friend so if he says it sucks then it must suck!!!" What Billy Bob failed to tell them was he never used it, he took the word of someone else, who had taken the word of someone else too, etc, etc, etc.

Been using Windows 8 Pro RTM for a bit now and I like it. Since it's not 100% released yet there's a few issues here and there. Mainly if a game uses PunkBuster like Battlefield 3 and Bullet Run, PunkBuster will disconnect you from the game. Overall Windows 8 is a very good OS.

Let's see, a decent OS with new ideas that while good, aren't quite polished enough yet, but may yield something extraordinary in the next version? Sounds _exactly_ like Vista to me. I've played with the Win 8 trial, and while it's taking some getting used to, it mostly makes sense and the speed is awesome. It took more adjustment than XP -> 7 did, but it wasn't alien either. The main weakness I saw was the poor selection and limited ability of the Metro/Modern apps, and they will improve over time.

warwagon said,
I totally agree!!! Calling Windows 8 Vista, is a complete insult to Vista.

Yeah Vista is better than Windows 8 by a long show. I'm guessing even Longhorn was better.

I think the author of this article looks like an idiot. It is a shame for Neowin to publish such an insult to its readers.

Gone down hill ..... I got a 3 day ban for flagging non-productive troll posts that had nothing productive in them what so ever. Too many coolaid drinking mods that will ban you at a drop of a hat for not agreeing with their opinion.

If you want to see the Pro Win 8 attitude of mods in action, i got a (null) warning for this post:

http://www.neowin.net/forum/to...iew__findpost__p__595179729

Fanboys and Pro Win 8 mods have hijacked any discussion of Win 8 so it appears positive.

As mentioned in posts elsewhere by me, one constant Pro Win 8 poster on here has after much feedback (grilling) from those who arent singleminded outed himself as Microsoft employee. Opinion on here is rapidly moving away from personal experience to corporate plants and yes men.

Neowin is, as has been mentioned, really going downhill....

Not to mention the troll population on here

LiquidCrystalMeth said,
As mentioned in posts elsewhere by me, one constant Pro Win 8 poster on here has after much feedback (grilling) from those who arent singleminded outed himself as Microsoft employee.

I knew it!!!!

anxiousape said,
No....Windows 8 is like the next Android (v3) Honeycomb!

Only for tablets? Oh if only it was true...

I like this article and what it says. Windows 8 will not flop and the only people who won't use it are those who refuse to embrace change. Example - I use Pro at home and Enterprise at work. I also deployed Enterprise onto my partner's computer for testing and he hated it with a passion and insisted I put Windows 7 back on.

patseguin said,
I like this article and what it says. Windows 8 will not flop and the only people who won't use it are those who refuse to embrace change. Example - I use Pro at home and Enterprise at work. I also deployed Enterprise onto my partner's computer for testing and he hated it with a passion and insisted I put Windows 7 back on.

Just because he insisted he has Windows 7 again, doesn't mean he's refusing to embrace change.

Raa said,

Just because he insisted he has Windows 7 again, doesn't mean he's refusing to embrace change.

Actually that's exactly what it means and what he said. ;-) He hated the start screen with a passion and said he hated not being able to figure out how to shut down the PC.

I don't know what are these complaining comments anymore. Start8 and Tahiy solutions brings you back literally to Windows 7.5 (Except for choosing networks which can be a little problematic...), so I see no reason to bash the OS.

It may not be exactly like Vista in terms of failure but the average mom and pop that buys a xmas computer will hate it and not like it - plain and simple. Those of us that are guru's or editorial writers for Neowin just don't have a clue. I challenge the writer to take two laptops - both same models etc etc... stick Win8 and Win7 on them fresh and hand them to the same old 60year old woman whom only likes to email or check facebook from time to time maybe read a few news articles and play Solitaire and see what she thinks and I'll bet he farm every time that she likes Win7 better. I tried this with my mom and she hated Win8 cause it was just too damn different and hard to learn over again.

Yeah seriously, this guy deserves a medal... He can call me idiot but I still gonna say it, Windows 8 is like Vista, and while vista was ACTUALLY GOOD (with proper hardware) Win 8 IS actually BAD (we need programs like start menu alternatives and something to recover the transparency)

Seriously, I don't mean to be presumptuous, but I'm pretty sure that my CV and the others of many neowin users can be shoved in the head of this particular individual, showing how little he has done of his life except adoring Mr. Ballmer. Good luck being delusional Editorial Guy. I will remember your name for further reference.

bobbba said,
Windows Vista - Bad Design
Windows 8 - Bad Design

Seems to be a perfectly valid comparison to me.

So since Win 7's design shares a lot with Vista, you're going to call that a bad design too? ooookkk.

briangw said,

So since Win 7's design shares a lot with Vista, you're going to call that a bad design too? ooookkk.


Just because something shares a design, doesn't make it a bad design/product.

Raa said,

Just because something shares a design, doesn't make it a bad design/product.

*sigh* Nevermind, you didn't get what I meant with that.

"Consumers initially don't like change, but are typically quite good at accepting it over the long term."

Right on... the truth...

Well so far it seems you CAN post a troll article as a front page news story on Neowin because this article is still there an hour after i reported it.

Seems like you can only get censored by mods in the forum.

Or perhaps the mods are now MS yes men and will not apply moderation if the article or post presents Win8 in a positive way, while lambasting and insulting its users who have a different opinion....

Calling the original post an editorial devalues Neowin immensely

And for the record, as i posted in another thread on Win 8, Australias premier tech magazine recently labelled Win 8 as a looming failure, so apparently theyre idiots as well.

Its an EDITORIAL you know what they are? He can right opinion post, and you can post an opinion on it .. Seams you did.

I wonder how much neowin was paid for this post.

Win8 is way worse than vista, vista had a start menu and didn't make you use far more clicks to do the same thing, allowed you to boot to the desktop, allowed you to change the default app to view photos etc with.

Win8 is garbage, i tried the rtm for 2 days, it was too unproductive for me.

Not only that it is spyware, they require an MS account to be able to install windows, they do NOT need to know your windows live account and ip address.

I've gone back to win7 sp1, it works perfectly.

Btw win8 is unstable, i experienced crashes, also it ships with a buggy and insecure version of flash too. Go look up win8 crashes on google, you will find lots of people having problems.

Is this neowin or fox news? Calling people idiots because a huge portion of the public hate metro and hate not being able to bring back the start menu makes you sound like a propoganda pusher.

torrentthief said,
I wonder how much neowin was paid for this post.

Win8 is way worse than vista, vista had a start menu and didn't make you use far more clicks to do the same thing, allowed you to boot to the desktop, allowed you to change the default app to view photos etc with.

Win8 is garbage, i tried the rtm for 2 days, it was too unproductive for me.

Not only that it is spyware, they require an MS account to be able to install windows, they do NOT need to know your windows live account and ip address.

I've gone back to win7 sp1, it works perfectly.

Btw win8 is unstable, i experienced crashes, also it ships with a buggy and insecure version of flash too. Go look up win8 crashes on google, you will find lots of people having problems.

Is this neowin or fox news? Calling people idiots because a huge portion of the public hate metro and hate not being able to bring back the start menu makes you sound like a propoganda pusher.

a) Install Start8 or Tahiy's solution

b) Ok. Every people think differently.

c) It is not true. At the moment of install on the lower right corner there IS an option to run local account. That's how I'm doing it right now...

d) ------

e) It is not. Maybe you were using CP or RP drivers, but it is stable.

f)

The funny thing people forget about Windows Vista is that Windows XP was in the exact same boat when consumers went from 9x to NT, a lot of vendors wouldn't support older products, games broke, applications wouldn't work and so on. Windows XP took awhile before a lot of it's issues were resolved.

Windows 8 is the new Windows Vista, ME, etc. I showed it to my wife and my kids and none of them want it so there ya go.

Let's not mince words here, Vista was a POS. Yes it was better after service pack one, but it should have never have gotten out of the door in the first place in that state. Windows 7 on the other hand was much more stable upon release.

As far as Windows 8 is concerned, I've noticed a few bugs, but nothing on the scale of Vista. However, that's not why people are calling Windows 8 the next Vista. It's mainly because of the inferior workflow and cognitive dissonance of the OS' interface. I find myself having to constantly switch between the two, and it's very annoying and confusing. I'd have preferred Microsoft go one way or the other, not the frankenstein esque UI 8 currently has.

Even on touch enabled devices which it's primarily designed for, It's still not as flexible as Android for instance. We'll have to see how well the consumer adopts it, but from what I've seen so far, it is another Vista, perhaps not stability wise, but certainly in terms of potential for market failure.

People will kick and scream at first then they'll get used to it and and we'll forget what happened. Going from 3.1 to 95 was the same way for me. I remember not even wanting to upgrade but bit the bullet and well, here we are again. I've used Win8 since dev preview. It's not flawless but it's very solid and I love running it. I love the fact I can keep my kids account on lockdown too.

laserfloyd said,
People will kick and scream at first then they'll get used to it and and we'll forget what happened. Going from 3.1 to 95 was the same way for me. I remember not even wanting to upgrade but bit the bullet and well, here we are again. I've used Win8 since dev preview. It's not flawless but it's very solid and I love running it. I love the fact I can keep my kids account on lockdown too.

Windows 3.1 and Windows 95 both required the use of a mouse and keyboard, as that's what it was designed for.
Windows 8 is designed for the use of touch input. Seeing a small problem here...

Just registered to respond to your bizarre analysis and also being very offended you call anyone idiot if they are not going to like Windows 8. Since Neowin has a close relationship with Microsoft I'm wondering, while trying hard to remain calm, if this editorial was written to get more feedback for your major sponsor [Microsoft] or not. Your editorial being published a day after Steven Ballmer dropped a hint on Surface pricing during an interview. Of course, as the CEO of the company he cannot show any lack of confidence in the company's product [Windows 8]. Your editorial actually suggests Microsoft must be extremely worry if Windows 8 is going have the same faith as Vista or not.

Here is your feedback, Microsoft has been back stabbing its loyal users and developers for the past ten years. Just you know, I've been using Microsoft products and developing on Microsoft platforms passionately for half of my life.

"We looked at user experience data that we collected and found most users don't use the Start button so we removed it" said Microsoft. 1. Thank you for spying on my user behaviour without my consent 2. I would like to actually see hard evidence of this finding. Microsoft has simply got lost in their directions and this has had profound affects on many levels. You cannot simply understand that when Microsoft releases a technology that some of us can see its shortcomings and do not wish to adopt it then it becomes a matter of livelihoods being ruined. Personally I cannot name one that I got wrong and no one held accountable for wasting millions of dollars of the company's [Microsoft] money as well as others.

Here is the biggest question Microsoft should find the answer to, without prejudice, why someone with over 20 years experience with their products and development will refuse to use both Windows 8 and Windows Phone OS?

Microsoft's strategy for the past ten years is based on "wait till find new users before dumping the old loyal users". If Microsoft wants my feedback then they don't have to spy on me I would provide valuable feedback for a handsome fee, I'm not willing to give free feedback to a multi-billion corporate.

Zebelious said,
Just registered to respond to your bizarre analysis and also being very offended you call anyone idiot if they are not going to like Windows 8. Since Neowin has a close relationship with Microsoft I'm wondering, while trying hard to remain calm, if this editorial was written to get more feedback for your major sponsor [Microsoft] or not. Your editorial being published a day after Steven Ballmer dropped a hint on Surface pricing during an interview. Of course, as the CEO of the company he cannot show any lack of confidence in the company's product [Windows 8]. Your editorial actually suggests Microsoft must be extremely worry if Windows 8 is going have the same faith as Vista or not.

Here is your feedback, Microsoft has been back stabbing its loyal users and developers for the past ten years. Just you know, I've been using Microsoft products and developing on Microsoft platforms passionately for half of my life.

"We looked at user experience data that we collected and found most users don't use the Start button so we removed it" said Microsoft. 1. Thank you for spying on my user behaviour without my consent 2. I would like to actually see hard evidence of this finding. Microsoft has simply got lost in their directions and this has had profound affects on many levels. You cannot simply understand that when Microsoft releases a technology that some of us can see its shortcomings and do not wish to adopt it then it becomes a matter of livelihoods being ruined. Personally I cannot name one that I got wrong and no one held accountable for wasting millions of dollars of the company's [Microsoft] money as well as others.

Here is the biggest question Microsoft should find the answer to, without prejudice, why someone with over 20 years experience with their products and development will refuse to use both Windows 8 and Windows Phone OS?

Microsoft's strategy for the past ten years is based on "wait till find new users before dumping the old loyal users". If Microsoft wants my feedback then they don't have to spy on me I would provide valuable feedback for a handsome fee, I'm not willing to give free feedback to a multi-billion corporate.

They're not spying on *you*. They do a lot of product feedback at their campus, and through various other methods (the "we would like your feedback..." you see often asked).

Also, how are they abandoning old users? As I said above, computing isn't some 1970's MIT project anymore. There's a huge push towards consumerization. If the consumer cannot use it, your product is dead. And since consumers are choosing tablets, and other mobile devices, and since the role of the PC has greatly expanded since Windows 95, pretty much forces the OS to change. Microsoft would have been idiots not to try something new. The old would have only lasted so long before mobile and other devices forge ahead.

Dot Matrix said,

They're not spying on *you*. They do a lot of product feedback at their campus, and through various other methods (the "we would like your feedback..." you see often asked).

Also, how are they abandoning old users? As I said above, computing isn't some 1970's MIT project anymore. There's a huge push towards consumerization. If the consumer cannot use it, your product is dead. And since consumers are choosing tablets, and other mobile devices, and since the role of the PC has greatly expanded since Windows 95, pretty much forces the OS to change. Microsoft would have been idiots not to try something new. The old would have only lasted so long before mobile and other devices forge ahead.

Yes Microsoft has been running spyware on their Windows product line since Vista, they gave it a nice name, something to do with user-experience, to legitimise it. We have been assured the data they collect is anonymous. Don't know if that is true with Windows 8 or not but what I know Microsoft will want even more data out of Win8 now so they must have added hundreds more metrics to their legally spyware and this program is partially funded by users themselves even without knowing. Broadband contacts aren't cheap and electricity is not free either, and all users's equipments are paid by users themselves. What a wonderful world that is where people not only have to pay but also help to make them richer too.

I think your thought process is incorrect to conclude change means progression.

Don't worry people, it would take only a service pack to get things right in Windows 8 should facebook users decide the new look is not practical, everything else is sound.

Zebelious said,

Yes Microsoft has been running spyware on their Windows product line since Vista, they gave it a nice name, something to do with user-experience, to legitimise it. We have been assured the data they collect is anonymous. Don't know if that is true with Windows 8 or not but what I know Microsoft will want even more data out of Win8 now so they must have added hundreds more metrics to their legally spyware and this program is partially funded by users themselves even without knowing. Broadband contacts aren't cheap and electricity is not free either, and all users's equipments are paid by users themselves. What a wonderful world that is where people not only have to pay but also help to make them richer too.

I think your thought process is incorrect to conclude change means progression.

Don't worry people, it would take only a service pack to get things right in Windows 8 should facebook users decide the new look is not practical, everything else is sound.

If that's true, where's your source.

/conspiracy theory

Zebelious said,

Yes Microsoft has been running spyware on their Windows product line since Vista, they gave it a nice name, something to do with user-experience, to legitimise it. We have been assured the data they collect is anonymous. Don't know if that is true with Windows 8 or not but what I know Microsoft will want even more data out of Win8 now so they must have added hundreds more metrics to their legally spyware and this program is partially funded by users themselves even without knowing. Broadband contacts aren't cheap and electricity is not free either, and all users's equipments are paid by users themselves. What a wonderful world that is where people not only have to pay but also help to make them richer too.

I think your thought process is incorrect to conclude change means progression.

Don't worry people, it would take only a service pack to get things right in Windows 8 should facebook users decide the new look is not practical, everything else is sound.


Also, Lol at the "Facebook" insult. You come across as an angry individual, unable to cope with the coming changes.

Zebelious said,

Yes Microsoft has been running spyware on their Windows product line since Vista, they gave it a nice name, something to do with user-experience, to legitimise it. We have been assured the data they collect is anonymous. Don't know if that is true with Windows 8 or not but what I know Microsoft will want even more data out of Win8 now so they must have added hundreds more metrics to their legally spyware and this program is partially funded by users themselves even without knowing. Broadband contacts aren't cheap and electricity is not free either, and all users's equipments are paid by users themselves. What a wonderful world that is where people not only have to pay but also help to make them richer too.

I think your thought process is incorrect to conclude change means progression.

Don't worry people, it would take only a service pack to get things right in Windows 8 should facebook users decide the new look is not practical, everything else is sound.


Also, Lol at the "Facebook" insult. You come across as an angry individual, unable to cope with the coming changes.

And Windows 8 Service pack 1 is going to be fixes and patches. The Start Menu is dead, and Metro is here to stay. It's the beginning of a new era. There is no going back to the 90's.

Zebelious said,
Your clue can be found in the following link below. Please remember I didn't have to prove anything to you especially after your conspiracy comment but this one is on me. Thank you.

http://technet.microsoft.com/e...rary/cc766341(v=ws.10).aspx

I see nothing there to imply they are spying on me. Everything asks for consent. Wanna try again? Perhaps a tinfoil hat is in order? How about hard evidence, like some Wireshark packets? No? Ok, then.

Zebelious said,
(snipped)

There's no need to try finding conspiracies, it's a lot more simple than all that: Neowin just runs advertising campaigns for Microsoft products.

That includes both passing ads as reviews and articles, and shooting down dissenting opinions.

Windows 7 (SP1) Microsoft Windows Version 6.1.7601
Windows 8 Microsoft Windows Version 6.2.8900

Its not a major release, its a minor, its nothing more than a new skin over Windows 7. Its a stepping stone build to comply with their commitment to release updates every 36 months. It won't be just like Vista because its built on top of Windows 7 (items in the control panel still reference Windows 7) which is a stable OS. I would of preferred them to call it Windows 7 R2, but what would be too confusing for the average consumer.

Supra Boy said,
Windows 7 (SP1) Microsoft Windows Version 6.1.7601
Windows 8 Microsoft Windows Version 6.2.8900

It's funny now everyone's rushing out saying "Oh but now it's a minor release".
Half of you weren't saying that when Windows 7 came out. People were quick to say "But it IS a new major release, it DOES have kernel version 7.x in it!"

Where are all of you now?

Let's face it : Windows 8 is a major release. Just like every* other version of Windows before it.

Supra Boy said,
Windows 7 (SP1) Microsoft Windows Version 6.1.7601
Windows 8 Microsoft Windows Version 6.2.8900

Its not a major release, its a minor, its nothing more than a new skin over Windows 7. Its a stepping stone build to comply with their commitment to release updates every 36 months. It won't be just like Vista because its built on top of Windows 7 (items in the control panel still reference Windows 7) which is a stable OS. I would of preferred them to call it Windows 7 R2, but what would be too confusing for the average consumer.

Wow you're seriously stupid. If you knew ANYTHING then you'd know that the only reason it says version 6.2 is for software compatibility reasons. Lots of software check the version number, if it's not 6.x the software will not work. MS have stated this MANY times. It's also why Win 7 was version 6.1, instead of 7.0 (Vista was 6.0).

And again if you actually knew anything, you'd know that 8 has far more features, changes, and performance improvements than any other Windows release in the past.

NoClipMode said,

Wow you're seriously stupid. If you knew ANYTHING then you'd know that the only reason it says version 6.2 is for software compatibility reasons. Lots of software check the version number, if it's not 6.x the software will not work. MS have stated this MANY times. It's also why Win 7 was version 6.1, instead of 7.0 (Vista was 6.0).

And again if you actually knew anything, you'd know that 8 has far more features, changes, and performance improvements than any other Windows release in the past.

This is pretty easy to argue:
[MAJOR VERSION].[MINOR VERSION].[BUILD NUMBER].[REVISION NUMBER]

Again, this is a minor release not a major release according to Microsoft's very own development standards. Using your logic, are you saying for compatibility reasons Microsoft will never release an operating system 7.X? If you look at the product life cycle of Microsoft product, they have changed the major version 6 times throughout history (and developed a "Compatibility Mode" to address exactly what you are saying). Microsoft can "say" whatever they want about why they didn't make this a major release, the proof my friend in the pudding.

Supra Boy said,

This is pretty easy to argue:
[MAJOR VERSION].[MINOR VERSION].[BUILD NUMBER].[REVISION NUMBER]

Again, this is a minor release not a major release according to Microsoft's very own development standards. Using your logic, are you saying for compatibility reasons Microsoft will never release an operating system 7.X? If you look at the product life cycle of Microsoft product, they have changed the major version 6 times throughout history (and developed a "Compatibility Mode" to address exactly what you are saying). Microsoft can "say" whatever they want about why they didn't make this a major release, the proof my friend in the pudding.

You dont know what you're talking about. One of the reasons so much software didn't work on Vista was because it increased the version number to 6.0, and the Compatibility Mode will not always fix this or the user might be too stupid to even enable it. MS obviously dont want to have to go through all that again, so they're sticking to 6.x. This has all been stated by MS in the past and is a well known FACT. Just Google or Wikipedia it... Everyone in the tech world knows this! Windows 9 will be 6.3 and Win 10 will be 6.4. Version numbers are now meaningless, anyone with half a brain will know that MS have made more changes in Win 8 than any previous Windows release.

Wikipedia: "for application compatibility reasons, Microsoft has kept the major version number as 6 in releases following Vista. The build number is an internal identifier used by Microsoft's developers and beta testers."

Edited by NoClipMode, Sep 19 2012, 6:34pm :

Ok I'll bite,

"Windows 8 is the next vista"

There I said, and do I give a damn what ppl think?...nope - lol

However I make that statement, as do i suspect others, not because of the functionality of windows 8, but because of how it will be treated by the general consumer. It will be the social pariah of the digital world.

ahhell said,
If you didn't care, then you wouldn't have said anything.

Fail.


He referred to the fact he doesn't care what others think about what he's saying. He's entitled to an opinion, just like everyone else...

The only reason I will not be purchasing Windows 8 is because it's designed for a touch screen. I don't have, want or need a touch screen. I like my keyboard and mouse.

You could also say that windows 8 is different because it already has plenty of critial support. Whether it ends up selling is different, but it won't be because they didn't innovate

Okay so I am using Windows 8 since DP (>CP<RP>R .. shhh) , so it's been kind of a year using it Earlier I used to think why would i ever use Metro when my browser does it all with it's tabs and all (I still think so) , however sometimes it comes out to be quite handy , like a quick search (just tap win key , type and click internet explorer/wikipedia/social/people) or checking mail (yes I kinda like the mail app). Though it is still limited on a Desktop , but the notifications (only Mail gives useful notifs) and quick searches turn out to be fun and fast.

However , I am having 2~3 issues with Win8 R..shh , sometimes it takes forever to shutdown , and one issue (rather perceptional) is the way metro apps close isn't the way normal apps close , so i find myself dragging borders of maximized windows to close them ( ). It makes me feel like a fool

Other than that , its a great improvement over Windows 7 , also the syncing feature is great when you are reinstalling your system , I had my taskbar up and colour schemes set , and they were on first boot after a reinstall! Magic!

It is definitely not Vista , but it may be if there won't be better Driver support soon (I think the forever shutting down is related to software/driver somehow)

Vista was a epic fail NOT BECAUSE THE DRIVERS.

I repeat, you can't blame the vendor, Vista failed because Vista was slow and it is still slow. And it is not because the drivers but because how Vista manage the file system. Longhorn promised a new filesystem that never was launched, however and apparently Vista indeed changed something and this change impacted the performance of Windows. Also, the service packs don't changed it.

Vista was a bait "buy vista.. buy vista.. are you a vista user?, then now buy windows 7"

Windows 8 is pretty much the same, it is HALF BAKED. It is not optimized neither for desktop nor for touch screen.

Vista flopped because the media stuck it's oar in and told people it was bad.
On a well configured system intended for Vista it worked like a dream, i still have it running on one of my work systems and it's never let me down.
Windows 8 will have the same battle to make. The media will get involved and bemoan it for being different and it's really up to the general public to try it out and realise it's a huge step forwards.

To all those people moaning that Neowin can write an article using the word 'idiot' and they themselves can't call someone an idiot in the forum, tough luck there. There's a huge difference between an editorial and some stupid comment in the forum. All those that can't see this are frankly.. well.. idiots!

Mikeffer said,
Vista flopped because the media stuck it's oar in and told people it was bad. On a well configured system intended for Vista it worked like a dream,

Oh come on. You can't be serious.

When i installed Vista on my own computer at home i had a brand new nVidia video card and brand new Creative X-Fi sound card. The computer was not even 1 yo.

It took something like 1 or 2 months for nVidia to perfect the drivers. Creative i don't know i gave up after a while and reverted to onboard audio.

You can blame media all you want. But nVidia and Creative are big companies and IT IS ms reponsability to be sure at least big companies are ready before releasing an OS. Send them tech if needed.

You can't expect a successful launch if nVidia and Creative are not ready. It's just common sense.

There was also all the changes made to the UI that was sometimes half baked and got perfected with 7. And Vista was not blazing fast either on entry level hardwares.

Edited by LaP, Sep 18 2012, 2:57pm :

Two mistakes in the article. The Windows logo is old, and nobody quotes John C. Dvorak in tech related news.

bdsams said,
The image use was intentional...blends old and new.

The 'criticism' was meant as light-hearted.

FMH said,
Two mistakes in the article. The Windows logo is old, and nobody quotes John C. Dvorak in tech related news.

True, John C. Dvorak was the same guy who said that Apple would licence Windows NT from Microsoft and create a customised version of Windows. He was also the same person who claimed that an open sourced OS/2 Warp 4 would suddenly over turn the Microsoft monopoly.

Mr Nom Nom's said,

True, John C. Dvorak was the same guy who said that Apple would licence Windows NT from Microsoft and create a customised version of Windows. He was also the same person who claimed that an open sourced OS/2 Warp 4 would suddenly over turn the Microsoft monopoly.

Yup. And a whole lot of other rubbish.

Cannot compare Windows 8 to Vista.

FOR ME, Vista was better at its time and actually enjoyed mostly of it (after stopping some hdd thrashing services like Windows Search).

Cannot say the same for Windows 8, which for I have no option to turn off things I don't like (for example, the new start screen) without installing software like Start8.

Calling people idiots for their preferences makes you nothing but a troll and writing an article about it, does nothing but hinders Neowin's credibility.

Mortis said,

Calling people idiots for their preferences makes you nothing but a troll and writing an article about it, does nothing but hinders Neowin's credibility.

Well said.

And calling people who have a right to their own opinions idiots also makes you look like an idiot.

We all have different opinions on Windows 8, just like we all have different opinions on Apple; some of us love it, some of us hate it. Some of us have perfectly valid reasons for calling Windows 8 the next Windows Vista and it does not make us idiots.

KaneHusky said,
And calling people who have a right to their own opinions idiots also makes you look like an idiot.

We all have different opinions on Windows 8, just like we all have different opinions on Apple; some of us love it, some of us hate it. Some of us have perfectly valid reasons for calling Windows 8 the next Windows Vista and it does not make us idiots.

He has a right to call someone a idiot when their opinion is based on nothing more than 'ewww, I don't like change'. I've yet to hear a single coherent well thought out technical argument against Windows 8 - there were loads for Windows Vista from the lack of hardware accelerated GDI to poor drivers where as Windows 8 there is a lack of real technical arguments against it.

Spoken like a true MS fan.

Now, lets say Apple starts running ads 24/7 about how "confusing" Win 8 is... That target moron that you are talking about will believe it by the millions. You think MS will fight back this time? Or just stand there taking punches while the user fan base takes all the heat?

Vista was UNSTABLE, I will admit that. But in the beginning, my calls for viruses dropped like a rock, and then slowly picked up again. And the Start Search was awesome along with a bunch of other stuff. It was not nearly the bad apple that it was made out to be.

But as a guy that fixes PC's all day long, 9 out of 10 calls that I got from people that were having "Vista" problems, were from people having the same old day in and day out computer "confusion". But that didn't matter, what mattered was that they were "conditioned" by TV ADS, to blame Vista. It was pathetic really. If Vista was more stable and had a the Win 7 file explorer, MS could have avoided a lot of trouble.

That is one of the real reasons that the Apple stores are so popular isn't it? It is a trendy place for confused consumers to get help when they need it.

This is why it is so important for MS to get the stores going, and stick a finger in Best Buys eye. The Windows crowd doesn't care so much whether or not the stores serves LATTE's. They just want a place to go when they get confused.

JF

Writing an article before Windows 8 has been released making judgments like this makes YOU (the author) look like an idiot. How about waiting for release, and seeing the public response to this before we come to any conclusions? For the record, I have never had Vista crash; all my devices were supported (read: drivers). Did I use Vista? No. Will I use W8? I don't know yet.

Ultimately, it was consumer perception that destroyed Vista (the other two things were minor in comparison). So, let's wait.

tsupersonic said,
For the record, I have never had Vista crash; all my devices were supported (read: drivers). Did I use Vista? No

So Vista didn't crash for you because you didn't use it....?

Fezmid said,

So Vista didn't crash for you because you didn't use it....?
I tried it out for a couple of weeks on a test box, but I never used it as a primary OS.

When I say MANY, we're talking 100s of 1000s of people worldwide, or complaints going to Microsoft. I hope Microsoft take notice of the feedback!

Cyborg_X said,
Change is constant. Embrace it and move on. Or at least shut the hell up.

And i bet that you said the same when Vista was launched.

Cyborg_X said,

Sorry new tech doesn't scare me. I actually like it.


Same here : When it's proven to do a better job.

Vista flopped because there was generally bad feeling towards it (albeit mostly undeserved).

8 will flop because there is generally bad feeling towards it.

Vista "flopped" mostly because hardware OEMs were lazy when it came to making drivers.

Win8 doesn't have that problem as anything that works with Win 7 works with Win 8.

ahhell said,
Vista "flopped" mostly because hardware OEMs were lazy when it came to making drivers.

Win8 doesn't have that problem as anything that works with Win 7 works with Win 8.


Way to totally miss the point. Windows 8 doesn't have the SAME problems as Vista (and no one is saying it does), but to claim that it doesn't have problems that will turn consumers off from it is either dishonest or ignorant.

roadwarrior said,

Way to totally miss the point. Windows 8 doesn't have the SAME problems as Vista (and no one is saying it does), but to claim that it doesn't have problems that will turn consumers off from it is either dishonest or ignorant.

I'm simply saying that 8 will very likely flop regardless of whether it has any technical issues like Vista, because people have, like Vista, already decided they hate it.

I'm a dev and the target audience for us are US banks. They're generally very slow adopting any new OS due to a variety of reasons (time, cost, etc.). MS has always allowed me to write an app for a new OS but it was never difficult to have the app installed on older operating systems. But now if I write a metro app I'm stuck with Windows 8... ONLY! Sure I can still have in run on the desktop but the swapping is clunky and confusing to my user base. I only wish that Windows 8 was the new Vista as this would allow me to target the latest OS! (BTW MS, if Metro is so great then why didn't you take advantage of it in Office?!?)

Mikkeee said,
I'm a dev and the target audience for us are US banks. They're generally very slow adopting any new OS due to a variety of reasons (time, cost, etc.). MS has always allowed me to write an app for a new OS but it was never difficult to have the app installed on older operating systems. But now if I write a metro app I'm stuck with Windows 8... ONLY! Sure I can still have in run on the desktop but the swapping is clunky and confusing to my user base. I only wish that Windows 8 was the new Vista as this would allow me to target the latest OS! (BTW MS, if Metro is so great then why didn't you take advantage of it in Office?!?)


They are. OneNote MX doesn't ring a bell?

Dot Matrix said,


They are. OneNote MX doesn't ring a bell?

Really?!? Let me respond with... Outlook, Word, or Excel ring a bell to you?

Mikkeee said,

Really?!? Let me respond with... Outlook, Word, or Excel ring a bell to you?

Since Office 2013 is still being developed, how do you know they're not coming as well? They'll be out by the end of 2013 I guarantee it.

Dot Matrix said,

Since Office 2013 is still being developed, how do you know they're not coming as well? They'll be out by the end of 2013 I guarantee it.

It's too far along in the beta process to dramatically change anything. Yes, it will come out in the beginning of 2013 but 'I guarantee' that it will not be a metro app.

Mikkeee said,

It's too far along in the beta process to dramatically change anything. Yes, it will come out in the beginning of 2013 but 'I guarantee' that it will not be a metro app.

Huh?

68k said,
Well then, watch this:
"How Real People Will Use Windows 8"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4boTbv9_nU

If you want more, it's here: http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/8...f-people-testing-windows-8/

MANY people will get VERY confused (and frustrated) with the lack of the Start menu on the Desktop Taskbar.


This is actually how most people (not just older folks) react to the latest version of Windows 8. They're most lost than if they were placed before some random Linux distro or Mac OS X for the first time...
People on tech sites like to call them idiots, but this is how the vast majority of people not using a tablet will see Windows 8.

68k said,
Well then, watch this:
"How Real People Will Use Windows 8"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4boTbv9_nU

If you want more, it's here: http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/8...f-people-testing-windows-8/

MANY people will get VERY confused (and frustrated) with the lack of the Start menu on the Desktop Taskbar.

Except there's a tutorial when you start up the computer and many OEM's are also producing their own leaflets, apps and videos.
Nicely solved by pointing to the corner and saying "it's still there" job done, bob's your uncle, fanny's your aunt...

Mikeffer said,

Except there's a tutorial when you start up the computer and many OEM's are also producing their own leaflets, apps and videos.
Nicely solved by pointing to the corner and saying "it's still there" job done, bob's your uncle, fanny's your aunt...


The problem with the tutorial is that it is only displayed once, and there is (apparently) no way to play through it again or to try what it is telling you while you are watching it (without have a second computer running Windows 8 nearby).

68k said,
Well then, watch this:
"How Real People Will Use Windows 8"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4boTbv9_nU

If you want more, it's here: http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/8...f-people-testing-windows-8/

MANY people will get VERY confused (and frustrated) with the lack of the Start menu on the Desktop Taskbar.

Except these videos are putting your grandma use a beta product and not a final release. Microsoft has added many improvement since that version they are using. I believe that MS should have used the arrows cue to make the UI easier to use, but once you know how to use it its a no brainer.

68k said,
Well then, watch this:
"How Real People Will Use Windows 8"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4boTbv9_nU

If you want more, it's here: http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/8...f-people-testing-windows-8/

MANY people will get VERY confused (and frustrated) with the lack of the Start menu on the Desktop Taskbar.

And you know what sugar dimples - when I moved to Mac OS X over a decade ago I was frustrated and annoyed but then I put on my big boy pants and learned how to use it.

Mr Nom Nom's said,

And you know what sugar dimples - when I moved to Mac OS X over a decade ago I was frustrated and annoyed but then I put on my big boy pants and learned how to use it.


And I highly doubt you are the type of average person that he was talking about. We are talking about the kinds of people who don't have a clue how to find a file that they JUST saved a moment before, or can't figure out the difference between turning their monitor off and turning their computer off. Those kinds of people FAR outnumber those of us who are knowledgeable about computers and can easily adapt to new operating systems.

I believe Neowin should really consider what it publishes. This is something for a forum, not for a frontpage editorial. Not when written like this. Neowin wants to be taken seriously, this is not the way. Regardless of whether or not the article is factually correct.

rvdv said,
I believe Neowin should really consider what it publishes. This is something for a forum, not for a frontpage editorial. Not when written like this. Neowin wants to be taken seriously, this is not the way. Regardless of whether or not the article is factually correct.

Dont worry i have already pointed out that this wouldnt be tolerated in the forum section, as it is a troll post, and has no place being on the front page, to the mods.....

I hate to use the report button, but whens its a blatant troll epeen post, you just have to

From my own experience, Vista was a failure because it brought a lot of unnecessary / poorly implemented stuff such as Aero, UAC or the sidebar AND it was sold installed on under-powered hardware (so-called "Vista Capable" PCs were totally useless).

a0me said,
From my own experience, Vista was a failure because it brought a lot of unnecessary / poorly implemented stuff such as Aero, UAC or the sidebar AND it was sold installed on under-powered hardware (so-called "Vista Capable" PCs were totally useless).

love the comment
touches on a lot of issue..
I used alphas and up to the rtm of Longhorn only to drop it when it was finished.
One key reason was over all performance..
Simply put i could get a better running machine with XP at the time
which meant my games or what ever would run at higher fps's.

In this day and age no one seems to care anymore about performance
its an after thought (after a whole pile of tacky new features are merged in)

While I absolutely agree Windows 8 doesn't have any of the plethora of problems Vista had, I don't think those problems were why the general public disliked Vista. The average consumer disliked Vista because it was a radical departure and there were some features that clearly needed some refinement; they had to get used to some interface tweeks, and those tweeks weren't very well implemented at the time. I'd say that's a major concern for Microsoft regarding Windows 8.

So, from that perspective, the company does need to be careful that people don't have a similar reaction to it. Vista wasn't necessarily a horrible operating system (a lot of the issues fell on vendors, even if the general public didn't realize it), it just had a massive perception issue. I think that's the same biggest issue Microsoft will face with Windows 8 -- perception.

Anyone that says Windows 8 is facing the same issues from a vendor perspective is completely wrong, though. I have yet to encounter a Windows 8 crash, even though I've had my Windows 7 laptop crash on me a time or two over the same period.

Vista got bad press because if felt slower and in many cases was than XP.

W8 gets press because the interface is different and seems to punish desktop users at the expense of tablets.

Hahaiah said,
Vista got bad press because if felt slower and in many cases was than XP.

W8 gets press because the interface is different and seems to punish desktop users at the expense of tablets.


I never heard a complaint from an average consumer about Vista's speed. It was always -- repeat, always -- about the new interface. I know fellow geeks were upset with the speed, but not common consumers.

So you can get a front page story by being a troll and calling people idiots?

Neowin is really going down hill

LiquidCrystalMeth said,
So you can get a front page story by being a troll and calling people idiots?

Neowin is really going down hill

Yeah I've seen comments moderated for using the term idiot, (even when the target of the comment was clearly the dictionary definition of an idiot), yet its now ok in the title?

This is trolling on industrial scale.

LiquidCrystalMeth said,

Neowin is really going down hill

By the amount of people who already said this, Neowin should be at the core of the Earth already.

I agree with this, but I think when most people say 'Vista' they just mean failing in general, which is still possible with this OS when it hits a wider market.

Personally I liked Vista and have grown into 8 so no complaining here.

I disagree, the "consumer perception" of windows 8 is the very thing that makes the comparison apt. Regardless of your personal views on how good/bad windows 8 is, it has drawn a lot of negative press & criticism which combined make for a very negative perception of the windows 8 product in the eyes of a lot of consumers.

This is exactly what happened with vista, and as a result is the reason than vista has a (what is in my opinion a quite undeserved) labelling as a "black mark on Microsoft".

In terms or product, Vista was a big step forward, regardless of its early issues. Windows 8 to me just feels like a bit of a step back. But thats just my opinion.

Vista was not actually all that bad it was just nabs installing it on computers that were not ready for it that caused most the trouble, Windows 8 takes less system requirements than windows 7 so it should have very little of that problem.

Windows 8 pwns, anyone who says it does not clearly have not used it or not used it long enough to know it doesn't.

The only legit complaint i have seen about windows 8 is latency lagg (fixed or being fixed) and the lack of start orb. If the start orb is whats stopping you from upgrading then i really feel sorry for you because your missing out on all the good stuff.

Why don't you just put your fingers in your ears and stamp your feet because people disagree with your opinion. W8 CAN be compared to Vista simply due to it's public perception of not being something they like. Geeking out on the technical reasons mean nothing to most people and the attitude of this article is incorrect and arrogant...that's just MY opinion. See what I did there? Resisted calling you an idiot? It can be done.

Hahaiah said,
Why don't you just put your fingers in your ears and stamp your feet because people disagree with your opinion. W8 CAN be compared to Vista simply due to it's public perception of not being something they like. Geeking out on the technical reasons mean nothing to most people and the attitude of this article is incorrect and arrogant...that's just MY opinion. See what I did there? Resisted calling you an idiot? It can be done.

He didn't call anybody an idiot. He said it makes you SOUND like an idiot. Subtle difference.

(although he did advocate shooting people who said it....)

Hahaiah said,
Why don't you just put your fingers in your ears and stamp your feet because people disagree with your opinion. W8 CAN be compared to Vista simply due to it's public perception of not being something they like. Geeking out on the technical reasons mean nothing to most people and the attitude of this article is incorrect and arrogant...that's just MY opinion. See what I did there? Resisted calling you an idiot? It can be done.

The editors on neowin are incredibly unprofessional. I once had one of them call me "a ****ing idiot" and to "**** off" because I disagreed with him on the interpretation of a comment by some politician.

Hahaiah said,
Why don't you just put your fingers in your ears and stamp your feet because people disagree with your opinion. W8 CAN be compared to Vista simply due to it's public perception of not being something they like. Geeking out on the technical reasons mean nothing to most people and the attitude of this article is incorrect and arrogant...that's just MY opinion. See what I did there? Resisted calling you an idiot? It can be done.

What public perception? Each time I see it mentioned, it has a neutral stance to it. The only negativity I see comes from Apple fanbois on YouTube and IT techs who don't know the difference between a hole in the ground and... and who think computing is still a 1970's MIT research project.

The general public has yet to comment.

Fezmid said,

He didn't call anybody an idiot. He said it makes you SOUND like an idiot. Subtle difference.

So its ok for me to say the author of this article SOUNDS like an idiot? But if I say they definitely are an idiot my comment would get moderated? (which has happened for that precise reason).

Fezmid said,

He didn't call anybody an idiot. He said it makes you SOUND like an idiot. Subtle difference.
So what you are saying is that we are allowed to say "<insert race here> sound like <insert racist name here>" and not get in trouble because we aren't saying that are the racist name, only that they sound like it...

And if you really think about it, the only thing for some that will change is the Start Screen. If you don't use Metro apps, your UX will be only slightly different from Windows 7.

Dot Matrix said,
And if you really think about it, the only thing for some that will change is the Start Screen. If you don't use Metro apps, your UX will be only slightly different from Windows 7.

So how do you search for programs without using the metro ui?

MFH said,

So how do you search for programs without using the metro ui?

Like I said, the only thing that will change is the Start Screen. That includes Search. If you don't use Metro apps, the UX will still be similar to Windows 7. In fact, it'll be better than Windows 7, with the new multi-mon features, and easier to use Start.

Vista wasn't that bad. I still use it regularly on a 13" Dell laptop and never have any problems.

Personally I'm looking forward to Windows 8 but I liked Vista too so what does that say!

I wouldn't make a comparison of win8 to vista in the same manner that you have argued against but in a large respect this will be a Vista again but I say that in the sense that I don't believe Vista was a failure.

1. Vista had a rocky launch but by SP1 the system was stable fast and fine
2. It would be apparent to anyone that used Vista for more than 5 minutes how much of Win7 is actually Vista. I would almost go as far as to call Win7, Vista R2. its pretty hard to consider it a failure when its basically the father of Win7. Now a failure on the other hand was WindowsMe....nothing evolved from that.

Now why this could be considered Vista
1. Might have a rocky start and uptake rate, already copping some bad press etc.
but more importantly
2. This is clearly an interim product. MS plays the long game and we are not going to see a fully integrated and well centralised modernUI system until Win9 but until then you need something to bridge the gap and to start changing peoples minds, exactly like Vista did.

Osiris said,

2. This is clearly an interim product. MS plays the long game and we are not going to see a fully integrated and well centralised modernUI system until Win9 but until then you need something to bridge the gap and to start changing peoples minds, exactly like Vista did.

Oh PLEASE! When has Microsoft EVER played the "long game"? They have nearly always chased fads and followed behind others' lead. The interface changes in Windows 8 are a desperate attempt to gain more acceptance for their miserably failed attempt at a smartphone OS.

Osiris said,
1. Vista had a rocky launch but by SP1 the system was stable fast and fine

From my own experience Vista has always been unstable even after SP1. Again it's from my experience only.

I'm working in tech support for a relatively large company and we never installed Vista. We upgraded to 7 last year.

We had some test workstations running Vista and we had trouble with 2 of them (not counting the drivers problem). One of the workstation died after a windows update. After some research online it appeared the problem was really common. Can't recall what was the error code on the blue screen though.

We had far less problem with our Windows 7 test workstations that we had with Vista while testing.

roadwarrior said,
Oh PLEASE! When has Microsoft EVER played the "long game"? They have nearly always chased fads and followed behind others' lead. The interface changes in Windows 8 are a desperate attempt to gain more acceptance for their miserably failed attempt at a smartphone OS.

Then it is clear you've been on mars over the last 2 cycles of Office where the ribbon was first introduced to a few key Office applications then refined and expanded in the next version with 2013 further refining the ribbon experience. The situation is the same with Windows - Windows Vista introduced a lot of new technologies then Windows 7 built upon it then refined it then with Windows 8 it builds upon it with new technology (WinRT, Tickless kernel etc) and then Windows 9 will refine it further. It is the Tick-Tock model that Intel also uses as well.

So where is your evidence that Microsoft doesn't play the long game?

LaP said,

From my own experience Vista has always been unstable even after SP1. Again it's from my experience only.

I'm working in tech support for a relatively large company and we never installed Vista. We upgraded to 7 last year.

We had some test workstations running Vista and we had trouble with 2 of them (not counting the drivers problem). One of the workstation died after a windows update. After some research online it appeared the problem was really common. Can't recall what was the error code on the blue screen though.

We had far less problem with our Windows 7 test workstations that we had with Vista while testing.

Seriously, you work in IT and couldn't get Vista RTM, let alone SP1 to run well?

They should fire you.

Farchord said,
And THIS is news!? Seriously!?

No. It's an editorial. It's clearly labelled as an editorial. No one ever suggested or stated that it is news. Thanks for the rude comment and unreasonable assumption, though.

Farchord said,
And THIS is news!? Seriously!?

As Calum said, it's tagged as an editorial (we have a small banner on the logo for articles to denote editorials versus news items; the "editorial" tag is also always the first one we use on editorials, so that tag shows up on the main page link to the article0.

Anthony Tosie said,

As Calum said, it's tagged as an editorial (we have a small banner on the logo for articles to denote editorials versus news items; the "editorial" tag is also always the first one we use on editorials, so that tag shows up on the main page link to the article0.

Didn't know editorials were about personnal remarks, I retract my comment, thanks for correcting me.

Dot Matrix said,
I approve of this article. (And Vista post SP1 was actually good).

And what about the people who bought devices when Vista was first released? Including me. Are we supposed to be impressed by the fact that it was eventually fixed 6months to a year down the road? Whoever thought it was a good idea to release Vista in its state back then should have been shot, not the people who are criticising Windows 8 now.

simplezz said,

And what about the people who bought devices when Vista was first released? Including me. Are we supposed to be impressed by the fact that it was eventually fixed 6months to a year down the road? Whoever thought it was a good idea to release Vista in its state back then should have been shot, not the people who are criticising Windows 8 now.

I ran Vista two months after RTM on 3 year old hardware. Had no problems.

"The next person who says that Windows 8 is the next Vista deserves to be shot, twice."

Stay Classy there, nothing wrong and unoriginal when sarcastically calling to violence for others opinions.

"The context for making this comparison is so far off-base that by saying it, not only does it make you sound dumb, but it lowers the IQ of those around you. If you need a few examples of folks calling Windows 8 the next Vista, here you go (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)."

People calling Windows 8 the next Vista is for one simple reason only, it's to draw comparison on the impending failure of the release, not the technical hobble wobbles, but you know this, you address this later in your "editorial". Going out of your way to make people seem unintelligent simply because you disagree with their point of view, has a detrimental effect on your credibility. These people have points, and they're trying to broaden their audience by drawing real comparisons to help get their point across.

"Windows 8 could flop, it could sell only three units, but that's not the point when you make a comparison to Vista which was a black mark on Microsoft for a host of other reasons. The point is that Vista tanked because of stability, vendor support and, ultimately, consumer perception of the platform, not because it tried to change the game dramatically like the approach of Windows 8."

That's not the point they're trying to make, they're not looking at dictionary reason why Vista failed, they're looking at the fact that Vista failed to capture the Windows market share. A lot of people either switched to a Mac or stayed on Windows XP DUE to those very reasons you stated. Again, they're talking about OS upgrades from XP to Vista here, and making the statement that upgrades from 7 to 8 may be slow, like Vista.

"Take Windows 8 for a spin. It will not crash. Vendor support is solid (albeit still growing) but it is radically different. For those who used Vista, you will remember the painful days of having no drivers available for your hardware or you used buggy drivers that caused more crashes than Adobe Flash."

That's a rather broad term there, my guess is you haven't actually read some of those articles that you are lambasting here. Some of those people DID actually crash, AND experienced stability, and decreased productivity.

"Despite the loud, and sometimes uneducated, rants about Windows 8, it is nothing like Vista. The next time someone says Windows 8 is the next Vista, make sure to call them out for the inability to create an original and accurate thought."

This is a loud and uneducated rant, and I'm calling you out for your inability to create an original and accurate thought.

Edited by Azies, Sep 18 2012, 12:55pm :

""looking at the fact that Vista failed to capture the Windows market share""

Agree with most of your statement, but Vista was the best selling OS of all time at the time, I believe. Not defending Vista though, it was unstable, that was my big problem with it.

jimmyfal said,
but Vista was the best selling OS of all time at the time, I believe.

The problem with that is, selling to whom? Certainly not individuals. OEM's bulk buy (license) whatever Microsoft throws at them, whether it's crap or not. Individuals buy a new PC. What OS comes with that PC is unimportant. If GNU/Linux was the only OS preinstalled on PC's, then it would be technically the fasting selling OS. It's quite meaningless.

Microsoft's position is a precarious one. If it loses its OEM monopoly, then the company is finished. That's why it builds clauses into its contracts that force OEM's to pay Microsoft regardless of what OS is shipped with their PC's, otherwise known as the Microsoft tax. It's illegal, anti-competitive, and enforces Microsoft's OEM hegemony. But of course, that's not a problem when you have secret NDA's.

I'd like to see Windows 8 fail, and not just because it's horrible to use on the desktop, but because the desktop PC market desperately needs competition, to (a) drive down prices and (b) allow real consumer choice. And no, there's little to no choice at the moment. Mac devices are only made by Apple, and as mentioned already, Microsoft's NDA'd contracts with OEM's effectively preclude competing OS's due to the Microsoft tax.

simplezz said,
Mac devices are only made by Apple, and as mentioned already, Microsoft's NDA'd contracts with OEM's effectively preclude competing OS's due to the Microsoft tax.

What is this, 1995? Oddly enough I'm looking at a couple hardware sites... and they're selling Linux systems, including some of the bigger manufacturers like Dell and HP. Just for giggles I'm even looking at the Walmart site (not that I'd buy a computer from there but..) , they have one that's preloaded with Linux too. The other retailers.. well that's up to them what gets put on the shelf, they only have so much space and as a general rule of retail, you're going to put up stuff that's a known seller, not something that's only appealing to 1%. Good way to not make money otherwise.. it's a business, not a charity. Sorry, but the "evil Microsoft tax" just doesn't fly anymore... the Linux shills need new material, badly. The systems are available, if people aren't buying them then maybe people just aren't wanting them?

PaCpiS said,
Win 8 is more stable than Vista was at RTM stage and we're not facing the drivers/software issues

Is a radical UI change not a software issue to users? Especially one that is patently deleterious to mouse/keyboard workflows?

PaCpiS said,
Win 8 is more stable than Vista was at RTM stage and we're not facing the drivers/software issues

Windows 8 is actually LESS stable than Vista in my experience. Their Metro apps crash frequently, and my printer driver doesn't work, and it appears like Windows 8 has the same WiFi bug as WP7 where WiFi stops transferring data and you have to turn WiFi off and on to get it working again.

So yes, Windows 8 is WORSE than Vista in my experience. Everyone has different experiences.

simplezz said,

Is a radical UI change not a software issue to users? Especially one that is patently deleterious to mouse/keyboard workflows?


I have yet to use Windows 8 on a touchscreen device and yet it's absolutely my favorite Windows version yet. There aren't any usability issues with a mouse and keyboard.

Stokkolm said,

I have yet to use Windows 8 on a touchscreen device and yet it's absolutely my favorite Windows version yet. There aren't any usability issues with a mouse and keyboard.

In that case, you'll absolutely love Windows 8 when you do try it on a touchscreen device. I used it on a smartboard with a friend and we were addicted to playing with it for hours.

ahhell said,
No "average everyday user" has used Win 8 yet.

I let my parents try out the Release Preview for a few days, I'd say they gave it a good try but grew frustrated with it quickly and asked me to put 7 back on. Try it with non-techy friends (in a fair manor or there's no point) sometimes they get angry and annoyed with it xD

.Neo said,

Videos on YouTube tell a different story.

You mean the ones where a guy whines about not being able to find stuff, like even how to shut down the computer? All while he could at any time type [Turn Off] [Shutdown] or [Restart] and the OS will not only show him how, but even brings up a results like 'Turn Off Computer' 'Restart Computer' etc...

A monkey has trouble using most OSes, just saying...

Which still doesn't change the fact that it's nonsense to say no average user has used Windows 8, as ahhell is trying to claim.

thealexweb said,
From the point of being hated by the average everyday user 8 is absolutely the next Vista.

When I demo Win8 RTM on a desktop to my average pc user base, they've all said, I'd rather use the colourful apps than have to find my pictures on the desktop; or something similar.

The desktop paradigm that most naysayers are addicted to and will fight tooth and nail to keep, is only really useful to that vocal community.

There are better interaction models that do not require a CS degree to operate.
So I say to the naysayers, take your head, out of your butt, and you will see the beauty in this modern world.

ahhell said,
No "average everyday user" has used Win 8 yet.

really ?
never heard of a tech expert downloading an operating system and giving it to a non tech expert ?
LOL
Almost everyone i know got their ISO's from me so ya uhh ojk then smart guy

i think to reason 8 is refereed to as the next vista is because Vista was generally not liked and not well received, and a lot of people think 8 is going to get the same reaction when it is released. Nothing to do with what the problems with each operating system is, because they are completely different as the article says, its more how people feel using them.

Exactly... the avg user who does compare it to Vista is based on their conception of the impending failure of the upcoming OS on the lines of Vista. Nothing to do with the black box findings of Vista's failure.

The article assumes that everyone thinks that Win 8 is going to fail for the same reason as Win Vista. The comparison mostly is on the level of failure and not the reasons.

anthdci said,
i think to reason 8 is refereed to as the next vista is because Vista was generally not liked and not well received, and a lot of people think 8 is going to get the same reaction when it is released. Nothing to do with what the problems with each operating system is, because they are completely different as the article says, its more how people feel using them.

Yet another point where the article fails. It indeed has nothing to do with the technicalities, merely the idea in general that the product won't be liked.

anthdci said,
i think to reason 8 is refereed to as the next vista is because Vista was generally not liked and not well received, and a lot of people think 8 is going to get the same reaction when it is released. Nothing to do with what the problems with each operating system is, because they are completely different as the article says, its more how people feel using them.

It wasn't well like or received because of all the problems mentioned in the article. Windows 8 has far fewer issues than Vista did and it hasn't even been released yet. I can definitely think of a few tweaks for Win8 but it's not Vista. It could do horrible from a sales stand point but it won't be because of the same problems that plagued Vista. Remember also that Vista, at the end of it's life had become pretty solid but Win7 was in the wings by that time.

anthdci said,
i think to reason 8 is refereed to as the next vista is because Vista was generally not liked and not well received, and a lot of people think 8 is going to get the same reaction when it is released. Nothing to do with what the problems with each operating system is, because they are completely different as the article says, its more how people feel using them.

Well, Vista was well received, people was enthusiast during beta and RC, as Microsoft has implemented a lot from what users have proposed. But, the enthusiasm has gone in few weeks after RTM launched, as there were a lot of issues.

perception and why each has issues is still a perception issue as well
and wether all the fanboys like it or not Win 8 has a bad reputation already and that is not gonna change no matter how many your stupid articles are posted..

The next time someone says Windows 8 is the next Vista, make sure to call them out for the inability to create an original and accurate thought.

Flat out calling people idiots on the other hand sure is an original way to get your own point across.

.Neo said,

Flat out calling people idiots on the other hand sure is an original way to get your own point across.

Sometimes you have to. Being nice to people works only if they're nice to you.

Martin5000 said,

If someone called another an idiot on this forum the comment would be moderated.

Neowin = hypocritical.

Public forum doesn't = article though.

Aethec said,
Sometimes you have to. Being nice to people works only if they're nice to you.

Call somebody an idiot or a moron on this forum and you'll see your warning level raised. Yet it's fine for an author do the same thing right there on the front page. Double standards anyone?

Martin5000 said,

If someone called another an idiot on this forum the comment would be moderated.

Neowin = hypocritical.

There are no members' names in the article.

.Neo said,

Call somebody an idiot or a moron on this forum and you'll see your warning level raised. Yet it's fine for an author do the same thing right there on the front page. Double standards anyone?

Are you really expecting democracy?

.Neo said,

Call somebody an idiot or a moron on this forum and you'll see your warning level raised. Yet it's fine for an author do the same thing right there on the front page. Double standards anyone?

The article is a generalisation, not a specific attack on an individual. That's the difference here.

.Neo said,
Flat out calling people idiots on the other hand sure is an original way to get your own point across.

That is because they are idiots - end of the day mate the cold hard reality is that some of us are sick to death of the same whinging and whining that occurs with every release then 6-12 months down the track we have the same people declare (after the first service pack) that it is one of the most stable versions ever and there were just some teething problems.

Windows 8 isn't as bad as people make out - is it different? sure. Does that difference require YOU to change how you do things by learning new short cuts? sure. Does it end the world as we know it, cause a nuclear Iran and Israel to nuke each other? hardly. The hyperbole is pathetic and tiresome with the apologetics for such positions even worse. Windows Vista had problems that persisted post sp1 which were related to development issues. How come we never hear about the initial release of OS X from Mac devotees? Anyone remember the Oxford chipset corrupt bug circa 10.3? the blue screen of death bug of IIRC 10.5 where Apple could have cleared out third party enhancements to ensure stability but didn't? Anyone remember the years of the crappy poorly threaded Carbon based Finder where the whole damn thing would hang because a mounted share from the server had gone offline? Please, we could be here all day given the screw ups that make Windows Vista look like a 'good effort'.

Btw, the media didn't help basically crapping all over it - as it was shown by the Mojave experiment was that if decent hardware was sold with a reasonable amount of memory then you wouldn't see the problem. Sorry, my sister was sold a Windows Vista laptop that had 512MB of RAM - take a guess how it performed.

Edited by Mr Nom Nom's, Sep 18 2012, 2:18pm :

If you are sick to death of people who have other opinions than you I have no idea why you spend time on a public forum like this. There are always going to be people who make baseless claims. But that doesn't mean all of them are idiots.

TCLN Ryster said,
The article is a generalisation, not a specific attack on an individual. That's the difference here.

Right so it's not okay to call one person an idiot, but it's fine to generalize everyone who doesn't agree with you and call them idiots en masse. Cool story.

Edited by .Neo, Sep 18 2012, 3:32pm :

GreyWolf said,

There are no members' names in the article.

Once, years ago, I called most neowin members as idiots, no specific name, just a generalizartion. I was banned for three days.

sanctified said,
Once, years ago, I called most neowin members as idiots, no specific name, just a generalizartion. I was banned for three days.

The level of hypocrisy is astonishing really.

Martin5000 said,

If someone called another an idiot on this forum the comment would be moderated.

Neowin = hypocritical.

bingo we have a winner lol

.Neo said,

Flat out calling people idiots on the other hand sure is an original way to get your own point across.

at that point i stopped reading the article.

I dont like w8 because its trying to be a jack of all trades, and manages to master 2 out of 3 scenarios (which is pretty commendable), but does not fit what I use a desktop computer for. Therefore Im sticking to win7.

Id like the option to choose to run Metro or not on my desktops, I do not use any app fullscreen on my dual 28" monitor setup at work or at home, bar games @home.

It does not make me an idiot, my 180 end users who trust me implicitly to provide the best recognisable desktop environments say otherwise.

The OP needs to grow up, name calling is not big or clever.

the only way most businesses will "buy" Win8 is on OEM to rollback to Win7 pro.......fact. hell most businesses are still rolling out Win7 and will be until win8 has been and gone.
Will be very interesting to see how many of the "sales" are infact bundled OEMS compared to Retail sales of the new operating system.

Yes, but the stability and vendor support problems that led to the consumer perception were a direct result of the radically different driver model that Microsoft introduced with Vista. The changes with Windows 8 are different (mostly a major UI change), but equally as radical. Both kinds of changes have the potential to cause backlash from customers.

roadwarrior said,
Yes, but the stability and vendor support problems that led to the consumer perception were a direct result of the radically different driver model that Microsoft introduced with Vista. The changes with Windows 8 are different (mostly a major UI change), but equally as radical. Both kinds of changes have the potential to cause backlash from customers.

IMO people will quickly get used to the new look, I don't think the backlash will be that big. People ultimately don't care what it looks like (up to a point) as long as when they plug in their digital camera the OS doesn't have a hissy fit and die on them.

roadwarrior said,
Yes, but the stability and vendor support problems that led to the consumer perception were a direct result of the radically different driver model that Microsoft introduced with Vista. The changes with Windows 8 are different (mostly a major UI change), but equally as radical. Both kinds of changes have the potential to cause backlash from customers.

Nope. They have nothing to do with each other.

A different driver model will make your legacy HW not work. Once and for all.

A different UI will make your conservative grandma whine for 2 hours.

bviktor said,

A different UI will make your conservative grandma whine for 2 hours.

Or anyone that runs multiple monitors, or programs that don't need to take up the entire screen but force themselves to anyway... but hey.. I am sure everyone on the planet uses a computer EXACTLY the same way you do....

Multipul monitor users will whine about windows 8? In what reality? That is one of the places windows 8 has a CLEAR set of feature improvements over windows 7, it's got full featured taskbar across all desktops, and the metro envrioment fits in on a secondary screen very well and is ususally how I use it. I'm sorry, but every day I'm working on my windows 7 3 screen setup I miss windows 8 on my personal desktop at home.

ILikeTobacco said,

Or anyone that runs multiple monitors, or programs that don't need to take up the entire screen but force themselves to anyway... but hey.. I am sure everyone on the planet uses a computer EXACTLY the same way you do....

I use 3 monitors and my only gripe is that I can't use the "Metro" part of Win8 on more than one monitor at a time. What I can do is have a great desktop experience going on two monitors while having the "Metro" screen on the third. Having multiple monitors on Win8 is far Superior to that of Win7.

Spencer R said,
Multipul monitor users will whine about windows 8? In what reality? That is one of the places windows 8 has a CLEAR set of feature improvements over windows 7, it's got full featured taskbar across all desktops, and the metro envrioment fits in on a secondary screen very well and is ususally how I use it. I'm sorry, but every day I'm working on my windows 7 3 screen setup I miss windows 8 on my personal desktop at home.
In the reality where users don't want every app taking up the entire monitor. There is no reason that my email app should take up 100% of a 21 inch widescreen monitor. However, I guess Microsoft knows best and I didn't use the other half of my monitor.... Like I said, "I am sure everyone on the planet uses a computer EXACTLY the same way you do...." When Apple doesn't give users a choice, Microsoft and Google Fanboys come out and screen about how they want choice. When Microsoft does it, its the greatest thing? yea....

MsftGaurav said,

I am calling it BOB 2.


Good old MS BOB Maybe we should start a campaign to bring back BOB.
Or create Open BOB instead

Teebor said,

Good old MS BOB Maybe we should start a campaign to bring back BOB.
Or create Open BOB instead

Bob was a funny project, but kids liked it. Picture UI with full screen applications, hmm... Sounds like iOS.

MsftGaurav said,
I am calling it BOB 2.

This is closer to reality than calling it Vista.

BOB was sound conceptually, the implementation sucked.
15 years later we revisit the simplification of device interaction under the modern moniker.

I feel they got it right this time.

thenetavenger said,

Bob was a funny project, but kids liked it. Picture UI with full screen applications, hmm... Sounds like iOS.

Actually BOB was a very sophisticated program:
it came out at the time of Windows 3.XX when a lot of OEM were adding their "Desktop" with several links to different programs, faxes and telephones. BOB also offered a completely vectorialized desktop which, at the time was not common at all... to say the least.
Yes it was expensive, the GUI was too cartoonish/ hildren oriented and...... Windows 95 arrive shortly after.
Commercially it was a failure, no questions but it was not a badly conceived project; mainly was too late.

Fritzly said,

Actually BOB was a very sophisticated program:
it came out at the time of Windows 3.XX when a lot of OEM were adding their "Desktop" with several links to different programs, faxes and telephones. BOB also offered a completely vectorialized desktop which, at the time was not common at all... to say the least.
Yes it was expensive, the GUI was too cartoonish/ hildren oriented and...... Windows 95 arrive shortly after.
Commercially it was a failure, no questions but it was not a badly conceived project; mainly was too late.


It's true that Bob was a commercial failure, and not the best idea long-term, but most people who LOL at Bob have either completely forgotten or were never aware of its context.

The idea of the computer as a set of metaphors for the home/office has defined more than people are consciously aware of, and those metaphors hit an extreme in the early/mid-90s, when every vendor came with their own 'friendly' front-end app launcher, designed to cleverly place your software in environments that "make sense".

Packard Bell PCs came with a 'home' launcher, too, which put software in boxes on a bookshelf, and let you navigate around the house to run any software that had a more metaphorically meaningful placement. This was a trendy thing, and it was in the same spirit as online services at the time, which wanted to present the information superhighway in a friendly, metaphor-driven way.

But the most important thing to remember, is that Microsoft Bob was Melinda Gates' idea, and if Bill had to release it so a guy like him could hit that, well, who can blame him?

Anarkii said,
Im not calling it Vista, im calling it Millennium Edition Part 2

I'm calling it the New Coke of operating systems...

everytime i see windows 8 = vista, i also wonder if they consider mountain lion and lion the same thing...the names are so similar.

gregalto said,
everytime i see windows 8 = vista, i also wonder if they consider mountain lion and lion the same thing...the names are so similar.

Please, some of us are developers. It's "windows 8 == vista"

gregalto said,
everytime i see windows 8 = vista, i also wonder if they consider mountain lion and lion the same thing...the names are so similar.

idgi

articuno1au said,
Hear hear.

I approve of this article.

Windows 8 certainly won't be a flop like Vista in terms of drivers and the actual quality of the OS. It won't flop because of the changes made to the OS, it could only flop if third parties don't get behind the new advancements to the OS. Right now it seems like third parties are going to get behind it.

Windows 8 will be the next Vista. There, I said it.

Ok, let establish a few things here. First, most home and/or business users are not power users, like most of the people hanging around here. Second the similarity doesn't have to revolved around technical issue, let stipulate that Windows 8 will be fast and reliable.

Where the similarity start is in the acceptance from the populace. I still have to convince people to buy Windows 7 instead of XP. I still get request for PCs with XP almost everyday. I still have some license and still sell brand new PCs with XP Pro to business that request it. So imagine when I'm going to have to sell them the idea to buy a laptop with a Windows that doesn't have a start button.

BTW in all the time that Vista was it, I sold one gaming PC with Vista, that's it, ONE. Never sold anything else with Vista. And we're talking about close to a thousand PCs sold during that period. Even laptop, I was selling exclusively laptop with XP Pro.

So just like back in the day of Vista, I will be hoarding Windows 7 licenses. I will be downgrading laptop to Windows 7 and sell my desktop PCs with Windows 7. Just like during the day of Vista. History is repeating itself.

And I will make a killing doing it.

Windows 8 will probably be great on a tablet. But on laptop and desktop, people should keep the right to choose between Windows 7 and 8.

How's that for original and accurate tought ?

Captain555 said,
Windows 8 will be the next Vista. There, I said it.

Ok, let establish a few things here. First, most home and/or business users are not power users, like most of the people hanging around here. Second the similarity doesn't have to revolved around technical issue, let stipulate that Windows 8 will be fast and reliable.

Where the similarity start is in the acceptance from the populace. I still have to convince people to buy Windows 7 instead of XP. I still get request for PCs with XP almost everyday. I still have some license and still sell brand new PCs with XP Pro to business that request it. So imagine when I'm going to have to sell them the idea to buy a laptop with a Windows that doesn't have a start button.

BTW in all the time that Vista was it, I sold one gaming PC with Vista, that's it, ONE. Never sold anything else with Vista. And we're talking about close to a thousand PCs sold during that period. Even laptop, I was selling exclusively laptop with XP Pro.

So just like back in the day of Vista, I will be hoarding Windows 7 licenses. I will be downgrading laptop to Windows 7 and sell my desktop PCs with Windows 7. Just like during the day of Vista. History is repeating itself.

And I will make a killing doing it.

Windows 8 will probably be great on a tablet. But on laptop and desktop, people should keep the right to choose between Windows 7 and 8.

How's that for original and accurate tought ?

Original, sure. Accurate. No. Your personal experience with one Vista laptop doesn't make you an expert. Even more fallable was your previous claim that windows 8 doesn't have a start button. It does have a start button. On every keyboard. In addition, you claiming the absence of a start orb is about as justifiable as saying windows 95 wouldn't sell because it had a start button. There was a tutorial for thay, there'll be one for this.

articuno1au said,
Hear hear.

I approve of this article.

I Like everything about windows 8 but I think the shift toward touch based interfaces is soooooo quicker than it supposed to be. Windows 8 Tablet are fine. Love Them. Windows RT is great but Windows 8 and specifically removing user option to choose the start menu style or killing backward compatibility is just not microsoft style. I don't know what's going on. The article is true that its consumer's fault because they don't want change. but these consumers are the reason microsoft is alive and make products, so why not respect them. They could at least make this new start menu optional. so many people including me live inside that stupid start menu which they completely removed.

It is a matter of interpretation. The author says W8 is not like Vista because it is stable and has 3rd party support. This is certainly a valid viewpoint.

A different viewpoint, though, could be that Vista cared about effects and eye candy instead of bringing users more value than XP. From this viewpoint W8 is like Vista. It brings a value for tablet users, yes, and there it likely will be successful. But for the old-fashioned PC users the value is very limited.

The Metro apps are primarily for contents consumers. While pretty to look at, their usability for a classic PC user is low comparing to the Desktop apps. Eye candy, but not practical, not using the screen space effectively, very limited feature set, inconvenient multitasking...

As a PC user I would have very little motivation to go buy W8. Though M$ is probably well aware of that, setting the W8 upgrade price so low.

Captain555 said,
Windows 8 will be the next Vista. There, I said it.

Ok, let establish a few things here. First, most home and/or business users are not power users, like most of the people hanging around here. Second the similarity doesn't have to revolved around technical issue, let stipulate that Windows 8 will be fast and reliable.

Where the similarity start is in the acceptance from the populace. I still have to convince people to buy Windows 7 instead of XP. I still get request for PCs with XP almost everyday. I still have some license and still sell brand new PCs with XP Pro to business that request it. So imagine when I'm going to have to sell them the idea to buy a laptop with a Windows that doesn't have a start button.

BTW in all the time that Vista was it, I sold one gaming PC with Vista, that's it, ONE. Never sold anything else with Vista. And we're talking about close to a thousand PCs sold during that period. Even laptop, I was selling exclusively laptop with XP Pro.

So just like back in the day of Vista, I will be hoarding Windows 7 licenses. I will be downgrading laptop to Windows 7 and sell my desktop PCs with Windows 7. Just like during the day of Vista. History is repeating itself.

And I will make a killing doing it.

Windows 8 will probably be great on a tablet. But on laptop and desktop, people should keep the right to choose between Windows 7 and 8.

How's that for original and accurate tought ?

For you, motivation is new software, needing new hardware, as opposed to getting more out of what you already have.

Jugger.naut - why is improved performance (existing software) and far fewer crashes (games) a bad thing? Now, if you're tied to the Start menu (and find the third-part recreations, such as Classic Shell and Start8 wanting) you're going to have a problem - none of us that use Windows 8 today have said otherwise. However, if that doesn't apply to you, you will benefit from moving to Windows 8 - even without ModernUI/WinRT apps OR games.

Desktop applications - who says you have to give them up? I haven't given up so much as a SINGLE desktop application I used in Windows 7. None. The only Win32 application *at all* I've traded in for a WinRT app is AWS WeatherBug - I replaced it with AccuWeather.com - however, that was based on my hatred of ads in AWS WeatherBug; AccuWeather.com has no ads. I still get alerts; they are *toast* pop-ups, as opposed to TaskTray-based alerts.

Are you basing your comments on your own experiences, or what others have said?

articuno1au said,
Hear hear.

I approve of this article.

I've noticed it really handles processing well. Dolphin runs real well The Win8 ATI drivers are pretty nice too, able to get IZ3D working with great speed. My i7 920 is pushing 4.2GHz without running into random crashes after 12 hours of not being shut off.

articuno1au said,
Hear hear.

I approve of this article.

Yes, and quite frankly, Vista wasn't as bad as "the neighbor's son" claimed it was. That was largely uneducated people being fed an opinion from a little b*tch.