David Einhorn refers to Microsoft as sinking ship, dumps stake

David Einhorn, president of Greenlight Capital, a hedge fund company, has just withdrawn his stake from Microsoft and placed his bet with Apple instead. In a brutal bashing of the company, he stated that Microsoft is at risk of becoming a shrinking company. He further compared them to Yankee player Alex Rodriguez, with their products failing and their value declining.

According to him;

Windows 8 appears to be a flop, and a decade of mismanagement has put Microsoft at risk of becoming a shrinking company. We were pleased when an activist gave the stock a boost, giving us the opportunity to exit with an annualized high single-digit return that slightly outpaced the market during our lengthy holding period.

Einhorn however, also invests in Apple and predicts that despite the falling share price, Apple will return to profitability soon and they will begin to make gains.

This is not the first time he's butted heads with Microsoft, in 2011 he called for Steve Ballmer's resignation claiming that Ballmer's leadership skills weren't exactly the best and stating that the stock would be worse for it.

It is however not stated how much he had actually invested in the company and how much profit he made.

Balancing out David Einhorn's loss however is ValueAct Capital who reportedly bought a state in Microsoft this week for $2 billion helping to increase confidence in the company.

Flip-flops like this are not uncommon between Microsoft and investors.

In the past year, Microsoft's stock has seen a lot of ups and downs with the stock falling in late 2012 due to investor worries and rising after the Microsoft reorganisation exercise.

Source: Business Insider | Image: Greenlight Capiital

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Windows XP appeared to be a flop [OMG teh Fisher Price] -> SP2
Vista appeared to be a flop [OMG mah drivers] -> 7
Desktop Linux was starting to nip at Windows XP heels [OMG 1337] -> NT 6.X, Desktop Linux left in the dust
OpenOffice was starting to nip at Office 2003's heels [OMG free] -> Office 2007, OO left in the dust
Finally the last is more personal opinion but I've used Firefox from 1.x to 3.x, and IE came back around also. It's just tabs and an address bar, fast.

All in all I say MS does not go down without a fight

Google/Bing this guy...

He makes money off of market manipulation, and if you buy into what he is saying, you are being manipulated.

Right now after the blow up with Apple and the drop in Apple stock, he needs Apple stock to stabilize and/or rebound so that he doesn't take a big loss. The easiest way to do this is to get long term investors to drop Microsoft and move the money to Apple.

PERIOD.

Microsoft last's venture:
-Microsoft "fired" a key member of Windows.
-Microsoft retracted completelly of the futures politics of Xbox One.
-Ballmer already admited that Surface RT was a failure (in number of sales), ergo the entire Windows RT-only platform was also a failure. *Note* it does not matter if surface rt is better or not with ipad, it was a mistake.

Apple
-They aren't launched key products since a while.
-The new facelift hasn't been appraised but the opposite.
-Mac Server could be a masive failure.

Conclusion : Right now, both MS and Apple aren't stable. So, those shares will act like a rollercoaster with massive up and downs. = Risks investment.


This dude is just a money vacuum. He's the same one that sued Apple to force them to pay dividends. As far as I'm concerned there's nothing to see here...

As a long time Microsoft supporter who's felt disenfranchised over the past few years from a company that's been heading downhill since Bill Gates' departure, I enthusiastically agree with this investor's comments. The Bill Gates Microsoft valued the user experience while the Steve Ballmer Microsoft seems to force users to use what they arrogantly insist is better for you, regardless of what users want.

I'm a Linux user now, but please tell me who at Microsoft "forced" you to do anything? If you don't care for Windows 8, for instance, don't use it. Windows 7 will be supported until 2020.

It's like any other product. Find what works for you. Not that complicated.

COKid - I have been telling everyone (and especially those that claim to hate/dislike Windows 8) exactly what you just said - Windows 7 is going nowhere for a few years. Therefore, Microsoft should panic *why*? I moved to Windows 8 (and now 8.1) entirely for my own reasons - I have migrated nobody. The hatred/despisal of Windows 8 - going entirely by the comments of those making the claim - is entirely due to it being different in terms of UI/UX. I've heard that before - with Windows NT 4.0, Windows XP, and Windows Vista. As much as folks SAY they want things different, when it gets down to cases, most folks don't. It's like buying new shoes - most folks won't except in extremis.

COKid said,
I'm a Linux user now, but please tell me who at Microsoft "forced" you to do anything?

We are forced to use windows because most of our software is vendor-locked to Windows.

MS are way off course. Windows 8, Surface, Windows Phone. MS tablet usage is nowhere. MS missed many boats and have lots of catchup to do. I think the reality is that the period where MS dominate everything is over. The question is how much marketshare and mindshare can they hold onto.?

Way off course? I actually think they are finally going into the right direction. We're finally getting a truly unified experience across all their devices and services (which is part of their new vision). Some truly exciting times coming. Patience my friend.

The right direction? Yes Metro is unifying the experience but lots of people don't like it. Windows 8 is not selling as well as Ballmer wants and WinPhone must be a huge disappointment in way off third place.

j2006 said,
¿We're finally getting a truly unified experience across all their devices

Unified?, can you install a WP8 apps in WinRT?. Ipad can!, Android tablet can!.

Having some blogger say MS is finished is one thing. When someone who has a considerable amount of money in a company says this then it makes you think. If you think about it he's making the right move as far as money is concerned. Apple when they release their updated products and their new budget iPhone will have their stock go big even if its short term. What's MS gonna release, an Xbox and that's it. With real competition from Sony this year things can get dicey for MS

A hedge fund is designed to make money when things go in an unexpected direction. It hedges your mainstream investment. In this case I believe it's more of playing the media to pump a stock while they'll quickly sell. If you make your purchase decisions based on these type of stories, you're getting suckered into giving away your money.

When investor after investor keeps saying Microsoft needs new leadership, maybe the board should pay attention? I know Ballmer will be picked again this year, but I bet his support gets down to 70%.

Gone off course a few times, yes. KIN was, well, yeah. A lot of people said WP7 would be the next kin. Three years later and what, it's picking up steam? No way! The thing is that people are so f**king short sighted these days. If something doesn't happened in a single day they panic and jump off a cliff like a lemming.

You have to look at the larger long term picture. It looks pretty good to me. The hard part is convincing the public. Marketing is another place where MS needs help in a bad way. For every good ad they run, there are 5 crappy ones.

Anyway, the ship isn't sinking. It's wandering around a bit but the general course feels pretty good. Oh, and that hedge fund guy is a moron no matter how much he's worth.

Part of what a company needs to be able to do is convince the public that their products are better. MS needs to be able to do this. If they can't they have the same problem.

Well I think apple is a sinking ship. Microsoft might not be in a good shape now but i am sure they put it allntogether and fix all mistakes. We shouldnt forget that they have infrastructure like no other tech company does

Hm... I would've moved my stock from MS to Google if anything. Why Apple at this point?? He's really late in that game. I think Apple is close to peaking, and that their glory days in the stock market is already over.

I find it hilarious how people are sticking a fork into MS. A company with so many arteries of revenue in so many different markets. While Apple, no doubt, is doing very well. As soon as the obession with buying the newest apple device stops being the norm among their target audience they are in trouble. You're seeing it now with the currently released numbers, margins and revenues are off.

Anyway both companies can, and will exist. However, Apple has very little insulation for when their phones and tablets stop having a high year over year replacement.

Some people only see as far as the products that are relevant to them. You could imagine people for whom Microsoft is nothing but Windows, Office, and Internet Explorer.

There's an obsession with the consumer-facing product when it comes to opinions about a company. The concept of 'B2B' is baffling to, or non-existent for, your typical observer.

putting all his money into apple, tut tut tut he prolly thinks ill get in now while the share price is "low" but dont think he realises this is where its share price should have been or realistically it should be lower than what it is now so he aint going be making anything. whatever stuff ther going to peddle soon isnt going to make much difference to its share price anyway so unlucky.

I agree totally with him. Microsoft has the attitude towards their customers where they no longer listen to what we truly want, Windows 8 being a prime example. They want to shove it down our throats, even when we have expressed our opinions repeatedly that this is not the product we expected to upgrade to from Windows 7. They can stick 8 where the sun don't shine.

Shove down our throats? So they have to make every change every single person says? Look what happened to Xbox One. Because they wanted to avoid the negative press they listened to the whiners and the innovation became limited and are now working on ways of bringing it back but better. They actually do listen (actually better than most other companies), but at the same time, you can't listen to everyone if you have a key vision of where you want to take your product. Learn to use it and provide feedback where necessary, or simply don't use it.

In my experience, Microsoft listens to their customers all the time. They just don't always do what the customers say.

Maybe, "sinking ship" is a little harsh. "Torpedoed" might be a little more accurate; however, a torpedoed ship usually sinks, unless repairs are done. (We'll disregard watertight compartmentalization for the sake of this discussion.) Windows-8 was the "torpedo." Now, what is Microsoft going to do about it.

Repair what exactly? MS is doing better now than it has in years. The internal reorg that they just went through should help as well.

This guy is the sinking ship if you look at his stories of the past he thinks everything will be replaced by a phone and tablet... which will NEVER happen.... there is just too much high end computing that can't be replaced like SERVERS! unless you want racks full of tablets....

I'm inclined to think that they are not sinking rather transitioning with the times. If you think about it Microsoft for a number of years was the dominant player in the Desktop OS market. Now the mobile OS market is whats dominant and Microsoft really didn't catch on in it, their bets were still on desktops. So I don't think they are sinking, they just for the first time are really having to play catch up

During his time as CEO MS has consistently grown in terms of revenue / profits. Do you really think the board would fire him given the numbers?

Ballmer is one of the few CEO's that constantly made their company grow their revenue by so much over so many years.

Everyone that wants Ballmer gone is a Microsoft hater and should just shut up, take their Mac and go home.
Ballmer is CEO for a good reason.

Hahaiah said,
Their argument might be that ANYONE could have gotten those numbers and that they should have been a lot higher.

That's true, but the argument cuts both ways.

Another CEO might also have destroyed Microsoft. Steve Ballmer didn't do that. He expanded the areas where Microsoft was strong. That may not be visionary, but it is progress. And that makes him better than a hypothetical alternative CEO who failed to hang on to Microsoft's strengths.

Ballmer might be a little rough around the edges and, well, odd at times but the company has grown under him. Xbox, Windows 7, Kinect, etc. Sure WP8 isn't dominating the world but who in their right mind would assume that to be the case at this point in the game. Windows 8 is a dramatic change that people WILL warm up to and realize that it's actually pretty good, particularly with 8.1 and future enhancements.

TL;DR, the guy is an idiot and just wants to stir things up so good for him. MS is not a sinking ship. Geez.

Hahaiah said,
One could say your silly statement makes you SOUND like a total douche. Can't take you seriously.

At least he aint spreading around BS like David Einhorn.
Few days after MS announces their revenue and income, which again GREW. Year after year, Windows 8 or not, Microsoft's revenues are growing.
How can a ship be sinking if its flying?

Hahaiah said,
One could say your silly statement makes you SOUND like a total douche. Can't take you seriously.

Frankly you snotty reply makes you sound like a douche. I was being funny/sarcastic but whatever floats your boat dude. Nobody's holding a gun to your head to like what I say yet I can say whatever I want and can care less what anyone else thinks.

But on a more serious note the guy is a total douche afrer all. As Mr. Shadowzz mentioned, their overall income grew. This is the same as when Vista came out and people were plastering Microsoft's obituaries all over the place. What happened?

Have a nice day.

you base intelligence on appearance? hmmmm, most would say that is a very unintelligent thing to say.

Obry said,
Guy looks like total douche. Can't take him seriously.

rippleman said,
you base intelligence on appearance? hmmmm, most would say that is a very unintelligent thing to say.

Thanks for the insight. Please read my reply above. You read everything on the Internet literally. That is a very unintelligent thing to do.

david who?

come on... now apple tries to bash on ms by having some no name financial leaders comment all kinds of bs against ms but in favor for apple?

ms will always be around the enterprise and the retail market. apple won't be able dto do anything against it and neither will google... it's as easy as that.

why was it even important to but an article like this on the news?

People do realize that hedge funds are just investors who only care about money and do not give a darn about anything else. Albeit, MS should have booted Ballmer many moons ago. It's just that this man is not the correct messenger. MS stock is up over the past 4 years overall. It still not enough because MS is slow to react.

I think he is misplaced in his support. Microsoft can only improve while Apple has been stagnant. I just don't believe Apple has a plan. Just keep releasing the same thing over and over with minimal updates. Admittedly I'm not a fan of Apple, but they seem to have stopped innovating and are now a follower.

I think a big thing to remember here is Microsoft's enterprise presence, which will always bring in huge revenue. Neither Google nor Apple are in the running there. MS tried phones and tablets and didn't do so well but it's too easy to equate that with company-wide failure--simply because those are the more visible products.

Assuming Microsoft's enterprise presence is a huge revenue source, why is Microsoft ignoring that part of their revenue by pandering to the tablet market with its Windows-8?

TsarNikky said,
Assuming Microsoft's enterprise presence is a huge revenue source, why is Microsoft ignoring that part of their revenue by pandering to the tablet market with its Windows-8?

You work on the area where you're most threatened -- which is tablets.

TsarNikky said,
Assuming Microsoft's enterprise presence is a huge revenue source, why is Microsoft ignoring that part of their revenue by pandering to the tablet market with its Windows-8?

Umm.. they aren't ignoring them. There are some pretty impressive enterprise features in Windows 8.1. Most enterprise in general are often slow to switch until they 'have' to (which is usually when support ends. You'll see more switch once Windows XP support completely ends and even more when Vista and 7 support end. (Worked in various IT procurement sources at various enterprises before).

TsarNikky said,
Assuming Microsoft's enterprise presence is a huge revenue source, why is Microsoft ignoring that part of their revenue by pandering to the tablet market with its Windows-8?

Tablets are just a blip on Microsoft's scope. They need them to succeed over time have no doubt, but it's not even a 10% focus for the company. Microsoft's biggest full on mistake was over estimating the number of Surface units to create.

Microsoft's entire on-site hosted servers plus cloud services are presently moving faster than old school IT are even remotely used to handling. It's barely been a year since Microsoft released their 2013 server lines, all of which were great upgrades with cumulative updates coming out quickly enough

System Center has NEVER before moved as fast or unified as it is right now, and it's a damn good thing they have accelerated this product line as it badly needed the updates it's been getting. System Center actually got a major update less than 10 months after release in it's SP1, and R2 is adding a lot as well which appears to also be getting released around 10-12 months after SP1.

Then Windows Server 2012 was an awesome upgrade, and frankly Server 2012 R2 will be even better *one year* later especially if they really get the new Hyper-V console merged with full RDP features into the final release (it's not in 2012 R2 Preview or 8.1 Preview).

I also don't think we are just seeing Microsoft react to the way things have changed in the industry, I think we are just seeing the results of the company finally waking up from its antitrust coma.

Edited by ITFiend, Jul 28 2013, 1:48am :

That's an very extreme assessment. Microsoft is taking big risks with Windows and Xbox so naturally its a risk for investors as well. If you disagree with their current strategy then it is best to pull out. But calling them a sinking ship is extreme.

A sinking ship stopped innovating and is unable to keep up with investors. The last years Microsoft has been doing the opposite. Their operating systems have been given a new user interface. Xbox is all about new experiences. They've come to realize the importance of mobiltity and touch. So they're finally all in on the smartphone market. They're also heavily invested in tablets.

All risks with the potential for success. But I guess he bad mouths MS so the stock will drop a bit and he can justify his choice.

The king of short selling, and that's not a compliment. Guy also thought the euro would go down in flames. He was wrong. He's also wrong here.

dancress said,
The king of short selling, and that's not a compliment. Guy also thought the euro would go down in flames. He was wrong. He's also wrong here.

He's a short-seller, but he was long Microsoft.

Incidentally, now we have some idea of why Microsoft stock dropped so much last week. Einhorn held a lot of shares. When he sells, that creates a lot of downward pressure.

well let's look at the past year shall we

Windows 8 - apart from geeks, nobody likes it

Windows RT - now atoms are out running 8 Pro on tablets for the same price (and especially when bay trail launches) who wants RT?

XBOX ONE - Launch was a disaster, they backtracked over DRM, bundled kinect without an option and now are saying there will be no Kinect titles at launch

MS APP Store - They just can't seem to get the developers onboard, a year later and the store is still woefully missing many of the high quality apps available on other platforms

Streaming Hardware - Apple has the Apple TV, Google has the ChromeCast, Microsoft has? see, they are lagging behind

I think Microsoft will get there eventually, but to be honest I personally feel they are two years behind everyone else. They need a strong media ecosystem with XBOX Music and Video which will hopefully rival Netflix and Hulu, they need to ditch RT, and launch some really great tablets at SENSIBLE prices.....(ie, £800 for a surface pro gen 1 wasn't sensible). How much market share did the tablets take from Google and Apple. It was pitiful.

To me, they seem to be a lost puppy running around not knowing what do to.

The Xbox One was announced. It's set to launch in November. So no, the launch wasn't a disaster, the announcement was.

Streaming hardware. Really? So the fact that the Xbox has had Netflix (and similar services) for quite a while and that the XB1 is geared more towards entertainment (*ehem* TV, TV, TV ) , means MS doesn't have any streaming hardware?

I do agree about the price of the Surfaces.

You're both right. Marketing matters and MS reputation to everyday people has taken some serious hits. RT was and is a disaster, made 0 business sense short or long term. I believe they'll do well with Xbox now, assuming they can keep from screwing up by avoiding future heavy handed decisions. They have a real shot with Xbox and media, content is key. We'll see.

Sszecret said,
The Xbox One was announced. It's set to launch in November. So no, the launch wasn't a disaster, the announcement was.

Streaming hardware. Really? So the fact that the Xbox has had Netflix (and similar services) for quite a while and that the XB1 is geared more towards entertainment (*ehem* TV, TV, TV ) , means MS doesn't have any streaming hardware?

I do agree about the price of the Surfaces.

ok, yes the announcement was a disaster not the launch (let's not split hairs).

and yes, Microsoft doesn't have a media streamer. It has a £300 (£400 in the xbox ones case) games console which has media services built in. Two very diferent things and drasticly different price points.

If someone JUST wants a media streamer, it's silly to buy a £400 games console to stream netflix and the like.

Microsoft needs a cheap sub £100 XBOX streamer to access Music and Video services. Tie that into their mobile and desktop operating systems to stream with skydrive integration and they are starting to finally move forward.

That way it brings consumers into the ecosystem.

glen8 said,
well let's look at the past year shall we

Windows 8 - apart from geeks, nobody likes it


False, people hate it cause of you 'geeks'.. In my opinion you aint a geek if you hate new technology and changes. But that's me.

Windows RT - now atoms are out running 8 Pro on tablets for the same price (and especially when bay trail launches) who wants RT?

Intel still isn't close to the power-performance ARM offers. No matter that Intel claims their chipsets will be in <200USD tablets, I really, really doubt this will, especially outside the US this aint going to happen. And ARM will remain strong. So RT is required.
Also if it wasn't for RT, Intel and AMD would NOT have pushed for low-power chipsets. And bay trail and atoms would be years away from now.

XBOX ONE - Launch was a disaster, they backtracked over DRM, bundled kinect without an option and now are saying there will be no Kinect titles at launch

DRM isn't really backtracked if you would pay attention. The 24 hour check-in has been replaced by a game-specific check-in. WOW, nothing has changed. Publishers that want their game to be online-only, still will make them online-only.

MS APP Store - They just can't seem to get the developers onboard, a year later and the store is still woefully missing many of the high quality apps available on other platforms

You obviously have missed how the Apple and Google store's took a few years before gaining real traction.

Streaming Hardware - Apple has the Apple TV, Google has the ChromeCast, Microsoft has? see, they are lagging behind

And Microsoft has had windows setup boxes for a few decades capable of streaming TV. Different form factor and you claim Apple and Google are ahead and MS is lagging behind? MS was the first of these 3 to support set up box tv streaming.

I think Microsoft will get there eventually, but to be honest I personally feel they are two years behind everyone else. They need a strong media ecosystem with XBOX Music and Video which will hopefully rival Netflix and Hulu, they need to ditch RT, and launch some really great tablets at SENSIBLE prices.....(ie, £800 for a surface pro gen 1 wasn't sensible). How much market share did the tablets take from Google and Apple. It was pitiful.

To me, they seem to be a lost puppy running around not knowing what do to.


You really fail to pay attention to details, are very stupid or just hating/trolling.
Using the Surface pro price as an example... hahaha, Surface Pro is meant to be an industry standard, not a mass produced cheap ass device. You have missed the ENTIRE point of Microsoft producing its own tablets.
Xbox wont rival Hulu or Netflix, Xbox needs Hulu and Netflix.

Shadowzz said,

False, people hate it cause of you 'geeks'.. In my opinion you aint a geek if you hate new technology and changes. But that's me.

Intel still isn't close to the power-performance ARM offers. No matter that Intel claims their chipsets will be in <200USD tablets, I really, really doubt this will, especially outside the US this aint going to happen. And ARM will remain strong. So RT is required.
Also if it wasn't for RT, Intel and AMD would NOT have pushed for low-power chipsets. And bay trail and atoms would be years away from now.

DRM isn't really backtracked if you would pay attention. The 24 hour check-in has been replaced by a game-specific check-in. WOW, nothing has changed. Publishers that want their game to be online-only, still will make them online-only.

You obviously have missed how the Apple and Google store's took a few years before gaining real traction.

And Microsoft has had windows setup boxes for a few decades capable of streaming TV. Different form factor and you claim Apple and Google are ahead and MS is lagging behind? MS was the first of these 3 to support set up box tv streaming.

You really fail to pay attention to details, are very stupid or just hating/trolling.
Using the Surface pro price as an example... hahaha, Surface Pro is meant to be an industry standard, not a mass produced cheap ass device. You have missed the ENTIRE point of Microsoft producing its own tablets.
Xbox wont rival Hulu or Netflix, Xbox needs Hulu and Netflix.

I'm not trolling, and not a fanboy. Trust me, I own devices from google, apple and microsoft. This last month has been nothing but testing out new tablets and phones.

Geeks love Windows 8, that's what I said. Home users, standard joe on the street doesn't.

I've used the Dell XPS 10, Asus ME400C and Dell Latitude 10. Very similar prices and the atoms were IMHO much better. These atoms haven't been redesigned in over 5 years.

Microsoft did mess up the announcement, deal with it. Hey, I've got a pre-order to you know :-)

Please show me a sub £100 box which logs me into my Xbox live account so I can play my XBOX Music Premium content

I'm not failing to pay attention, nor am I stupid thanks (personal attacks not welcome on here please). Microsoft are not enticing consumers to the ecosystem., it's as simple as that. Too fragmented at the minute.

Hey this is just my own opinion, no need to get your back up about it. You have yours and I have mine. We're all friends on neowin.

Personally my setup at the minute is a Windows 8.1 PC, a Dell XPS 12 running 8.1, but have Nexus 4 phone, Roku 3 streamer (being replaced with chromecast) and an iPad 3 LOL. Can't get further away from a fanboy if I tried :-)

glen8 said,

I'm not trolling, and not a fanboy. Trust me, I own devices from google, apple and microsoft. This last month has been nothing but testing out new tablets and phones.

Geeks love Windows 8, that's what I said. Home users, standard joe on the street doesn't.


Might be different in countries or personal bubbles, in my bubble, people hate Windows 8 based on "other people's opinions", average Joe will take anything a person says that knows how to set the VCR clock or change BIOS settings. And IMO this is whats causing most hatred. Its unbased. Move on, stop hating on the new and stop creating a new XP era in 10 years with Win7.
At least that's how I see it from personal experience. None of the people I upgraded to Windows 8, have looked back. They all hated it at first, after I calmed them down "its still windows, you can play your little games, there's a desktop" they were fine. They all still had a dualboot option to go to previous Windows, none bother and just use Windows 8. The hatred obviously isn't as strong as it appears.

I've used the Dell XPS 10, Asus ME400C and Dell Latitude 10. Very similar prices and the atoms were IMHO much better. These atoms haven't been redesigned in over 5 years.
Yeah, keep in mind if it was ARM, your battery life would've been double that, heh.

Microsoft did mess up the announcement, deal with it. Hey, I've got a pre-order to you know :-)

Please show me a sub £100 box which logs me into my Xbox live account so I can play my XBOX Music Premium content

Any system running Windows XP and up can do that. Nothing new, just different form factor.
And EA's games will use 'cloud computing' for example, still require 'always-on'.
Nothing has changed really, except of it being mandatory, its publisher optional. (This isn't different from PS3/PS4 DRM though, although the difference in company attitude matters.)

I'm not failing to pay attention, nor am I stupid thanks (personal attacks not welcome on here please). Microsoft are not enticing consumers to the ecosystem., it's as simple as that. Too fragmented at the minute.

Then why come with FUD? Only geeks like Windows 8..wut? Surface Pro was made to conquer the market and rival iPad or something...wut? Windows can only be used for TV's _after_ Apple and Google came with their TV boxes...wut? RT being worthless....wut?

I agree MS is still to fragmented, but they have been fixing that. Their unified mission started in the 90's (if not 80s, oldest Gates video I seen about it was 91-92ish) and this takes time.


Hey this is just my own opinion, no need to get your back up about it. You have yours and I have mine. We're all friends on neowin.

Personally my setup at the minute is a Windows 8.1 PC, a Dell XPS 12 running 8.1, but have Nexus 4 phone, Roku 3 streamer (being replaced with chromecast) and an iPad 3 LOL. Can't get further away from a fanboy if I tried :-)


See points quote above, opinions are perfectly fine and all, we all have our own. But fact != opinion.

Its good to hear you aint stuck to 1 company or something Even though I got a Windows 8 setup, WP8 phone, I have a Vita, Playstation, use Debian for my servers. And go far enough that I have Cygwin/POSIX running in my CMD.So next to powershell, CMD is a proper command line feature too.

They all have their own strong and weak points.

glen8 said,
....flame stuff.....

Shadowzz said,
....respond to flame bait.....

glen8 said,
....fuels the fire.....

Shadowzz said,
....lays the smack down.....

Interesting points all around. I believe on a long enough timeline MS will come out ahead. Turning distributed computing into a Mainframe and calling it cloud, while offering its resources cheaper than IBM will really pay off in the long run.

After Apple Dev Center was hacked, you can bet they'll come crawling to MS with their tails between their legs for a security model that actually works, leaving Amazon with a big revenue gap on their balance sheet.

Mark my words.

And why *does* the average person (your claim, not mine) supposedly hate Windows 8? From all the comments, it is entirely due to it being different from Windows 7 - a decidedly anti-change sentiment. Yes, the Start menu is gone. However, do applications (even Windows 7 applications) actually care? The surprising answer to that is no - applications could, in fact, care less. Once users get used to the Start menu being gone, the StartScreen (and especially in Windows 8.1) can be gotten used to - however, it takes a mind willing to accept change. Such a mind is decidedly LACKING in average folks - how long did it take high definition to get off the ground outside of Japan? (The only reason it even got off the ground in Japan is that it was top-down driven - driven by the government, and primarily NHK/MITI - average folk could have cared less.)

Shadowzz said,

Might be different in countries or personal bubbles, in my bubble, people hate Windows 8 based on "other people's opinions", average Joe will take anything a person says that knows how to set the VCR clock or change BIOS settings. And IMO this is whats causing most hatred. Its unbased.

Wow, this is a very good description of how I feel. You did a fantastic job putting that into words.

If an application (any application) actually cared, it would throw up an exception or the application equivalent of a hissy-fit - I haven't seen that from any desktop application I have installed or run in Windows 8 (or 8.1, for that matter). Users are the ones with the emotional response, and those users that have stated quite plainly that they hate or dislike Windows 8 centered that emotion entirely around the lack of a Start menu. I have never said that I have a problem with that per se - in fact, I stated that I understand it. My bone to pick is those that have that reaction trying to blow smoke up my butt and say it's something else, when it isn't. Disagreeing with my opinion isn't the issue - blowing smoke up my butt (basically lying to me about why) is where we will have issues.

No, I think pretty much everyone wanted HDTV. I don't recall anyone saying, "I don't want more resolution!" It was cost and infrastructure that delayed uptake here.

I am not as positive about all of this. The trend is heading downward not upward for the entire tech sector. Phones are starting to reach that point where there isn't much to improve. OS updates okay fine, but hardware features are basically maxed when you have Galaxy 4S. Maybe you can keep adding Gorilla glass 3 and water proofing but there isn't much left to do.

Wrong. There is huge potential in scaling phone hardware for next couple of years. Integrating them more and more as everyone's primary PC. People are using "computers" more than ever, it's just "what kind" thats changing.

Hahaiah said,
Wrong. There is huge potential in scaling phone hardware for next couple of years. Integrating them more and more as everyone's primary PC. People are using "computers" more than ever, it's just "what kind" thats changing.

It might be..... when a real breakthrough will bring nee kind of batteries lasting longer.

They have been doing pretty bad lately too.... in fact it seems that most tech companies (even Amazon for goodness sakes!) are not doing as well as they used to. Eventually everyone will rise again.

Agreed - it seems that while business in general is doing better, the average consumer is still barely staying afloat, potentially unemployed or underemployed, and doesn't have the disposable income that companies like Apple (and to a lesser extent Amazon, Microsoft, Google, etc.) need to feed some of their growth. If consumers aren't buying, companies will have hard times. Even Apple is finding it hard to sell devices, and that's about all they really do.

You must be young to think like that.

torrentthief said,
as long as it has a picture of a pretty apple on the back and people can say to their friends "i've got an iphone" then people will buy it.

rippleman said,
You must be young to think like that.
Brand recognition of friends is a huge player in the decision to buy apple products.

Riva said,
Lets see how plastic iPhone will play

It's there to compete with the plastic Samsung phones. I think they have a place, especially as phones with much better profit margins than iPhone 4/4S/5 (when 5S is released). They should arrive just in time for Apple, as profit margins were exactly what has recently become a problem for them.

MrHumpty said,
Brand recognition of friends is a huge player in the decision to buy apple products.

exactly, kids are peer pressured in to having the biggest brands of phones, trainers, cans of drinks etc. My young sister bought an iphone 4 for this very reason.

MrHumpty said,
Brand recognition of friends is a huge player in the decision to buy apple products.

Especially in a "Me too", "Hey, look at me, I'm cool" society like the US, where style is largely more important than substance.

DTrump said,

Especially in a "Me too", "Hey, look at me, I'm cool" society like the US, where style is largely more important than substance.

Sure maybe for teenagers. Everybody else, no...

Astra.Xtreme said,

Sure maybe for teenagers. Everybody else, no...

Indeed, most people are not weak minded enough to make their choices based on what somebody else chose. They make their own decisions. Obviously teenagers are not "most people",

TCLN Ryster said,
Indeed, most people are not weak minded enough to make their choices based on what somebody else chose. They make their own decisions. Obviously teenagers are not "most people",
You really don't pay attention to people much do you? Brand association is a big thing among many.

rippleman said,
You must be young to think like that.

...or be pretty accurate in predicing the way young people think.

i help youth daily in a small city of 100,000 people, and weekly in a city of 1,000,000.I have NEVER come across kids/teens (including my own) that buy an iPhone because its cool. If i had to make a guess, i would say it would be more likely that a teen would likely buy android to have the "i-bought-something-that-wasn't-an-iPhone" cool factor... which is even more silly.

I feel that capitalism is about to crash as investors are driven by super-high greed across all markets but the consumer keeps getting nothing while paying a fortune for crap

Riva said,
I feel that capitalism is about to crash as investors are driven by super-high greed across all markets but the consumer keeps getting nothing while paying a fortune for crap
Rofl...

Riva said,
I feel that capitalism is about to crash as investors are driven by super-high greed across all markets but the consumer keeps getting nothing while paying a fortune for crap

Thanks for your insightful and well-reasoned prediction on the collapse of capitalism, Miss Cleo.

Currently I agree Microsoft is sinking. But they can do well again, if they step things up.

They have good ideas (really good ideas), but they have trouble fulfilling them. Things are released in half finished states, or are watered down by the time they are released, or just plain miss the mark. Microsoft seem to have a clear idea of where they want to go now, but they really need to focus on it, get the details right, and start delivering on what they initially promise. As a customer, it is very hard to buy into their "visions" when they aren't properly presented or finished.

Get updates for products out quicker (WP8), don't release radical ideas in a half-finished state (W8) and stop the pointless Apple-esque bashing of competitors (they can throw their weight around when they're back on top, until then it just looks pathetic).

Fourjays said,
Currently I agree Microsoft is sinking. But they can do well again, if they step things up.

I agree with this, they have been doing very badly recently. But they are still very strong financially (thanks to monopoly on PC, although it's a market in decline). And nothing stops Microsoft from doing a reverse and start doing good products again.

It does reek of management problems really.. I do hope they can get themselves back on track! Totally agree with your final paragraph - the recent commercials slating competition is such a pathetic, desperate move.. I hated it when Apple did it, and I hate it now when Microsoft do it.

I've been saying the same about Windows Phone 8 - development is too slow, and too incremental. They're very quickly losing the goodwill and enthusiasm that people had for it (myself included).. and as for Windows 8... well I never had any good words for that, but I'd be very happy if they could shape the product into something I actually wanted to use. Hopefully Windows 8.1 will be a step in the right direction.

Your long winded response doesn't address what's MOST important, users simply didn't like W8 in numbers that MS needed. Before anything else implemented can really matter, it has to make users happy, it did not. These things matter and are important in ways you might not understand but should respect.

Hahaiah said,
Your long winded response doesn't address what's MOST important, users simply didn't like W8 in numbers that MS needed. Before anything else implemented can really matter, it has to make users happy, it did not. These things matter and are important in ways you might not understand but should respect.

We all know most of Windows 8 hatred was unjust and simple FUD spreaded by the typical MS haters that hate anything MS and are god afraid of any changes.
Even though they can customize the OS to suit their EXACT likings, no... Windows 8 was BAAAD MMMKAY.

Many average joe users around me, hate Windows 8.
If I ask them why? It's the same typical f*cking answer... I heard X or Y say that, or from the internet.
Most of them have been or will move to Windows 8, those that did, when a few days after upgrading them I ask them, "So how does it work out for you?" (keep in mind, I give them the choice of going back to XP/Vista/7 due to dualboot and I give them a start menu if they want)
And they ALL answer this "It was some getting used to, finding the new places of stuff, but its alright"...

After a couple of days of getting used to it, especially those that switched from XP....
Most hatred comes from the few techies that spread the Win8 hatred like they spread Chrome.

Ideas Man said,

You're also completely ignoring all the telemetry and user feedback they received from Windows 8 which was used to improve Windows Blue, feedback and telemetry that simply wouldn't be available without Windows 8.

Fair point.

Sorry, but I refuse to accept that Windows 8 couldn't have been better at release. I get what you are saying, but when you are late to the market and introducing a radical change, you can't afford to release a half-finished product. Look at the damage that has been done... 8.1 has a massive hill to climb now. At least with Vista Microsoft could blame third parties for bad drivers, but with Windows 8 they only have themselves to blame.

Yea, some things would be unrealistic to expect straight away. But the state of the apps was/is abysmal, setting the bar for third party developers too low and then there are the little details that would have made all the difference (e.g. Start [u]Button[/u], custom image on the Start Screen). Using user feedback is good, but some of these things should have been plainly obvious to Microsoft, either from prior versions of Windows or just from a perspective of aesthetics.

It is Microsoft's "vision" and they need to lead the way and prove to consumers/businesses/developers that it is worth investing in. For example, they want us to buy into the Modern UI being the future, but have yet to provide some idea of how more complicated productivity apps could be achieved. Would it be so hard to share some concept images for a Modern UI Word/Excel/Visual Studio, even if it is a good year or two from release? It would give some assurances and at least give developers some ideas.

Releasing in an unfinished state wouldn't be an issue though if the updates were released in a timely manner. But despite their resources, it has taken almost a year for Windows 8 to get its first serious update, and Windows Phone 8 is being developed at a snails pace. As a developer I do understand the amount of time involved in creating software, but I don't get why, with the resources at Microsoft's disposal, we are waiting such long periods of time for what are relatively small updates.

Also, keep your idiot comments to yourself.

Microsoft is taking its time, cause technology needs to settle.

They could invest in their Windows division. And Windows (phone) 9 could've been released Q4 this year.
But they don't, and for good reason.

It's clear that Microsoft are reinventing Windows somewhat. Given the current trend in input devices (for that's all that's has actually in recent times) I think that their software strategy is the right one.

And yes it will take time even with Microsoft's resources.

Shadowzz said,
Many average joe users around me, hate Windows 8.
If I ask them why? It's the same typical f*cking answer... I heard X or Y say that, or from the internet.

And you know who the source of those comments are? The people that actually purchased new computers and were stuck with Windows 8. Of those I know employed at our local Best Buy, new laptop returns were unprecedentedly higher than ever.

urbanriot said,

And you know who the source of those comments are? The people that actually purchased new computers and were stuck with Windows 8. Of those I know employed at our local Best Buy, new laptop returns were unprecedentedly higher than ever.

I'm sorry, but if you return a Windows 8 PC rather than installing a freeware product to make it like Windows 7 but better, then you are a moron. It's indisputable that Windows 8 is fundamentally a better OS under the metro skin than Windows 7 was. It's illogical to throw those improvements away just because you don't like the new UI, something any 9 year old could avoid if they wanted.

TCLN Ryster said,

I'm sorry, but if you return a Windows 8 PC rather than installing a freeware product to make it like Windows 7 but better, then you are a moron.

Or you're the average 'mom and pop' type consumer who buys their computers from major retailers and treats them as appliances / sealed packages. Why do people struggle to understand that not all computer users are geeks or enthusiasts who know how to 'fix' things like the Windows 8 user experience.

They're not morons. They're just average users. And the industry treating users as geeks, and expecting them to know all sorts of shortcuts and so forth, is where they're going wrong.

Hahaiah said,
Your long winded response doesn't address what's MOST important, users simply didn't like W8 in numbers that MS needed. Before anything else implemented can really matter, it has to make users happy, it did not. These things matter and are important in ways you might not understand but should respect.

I don't think it's an issue of "didn't like," but much more one of "didn't need." People are generally pretty happy with Windows 7, and they are happy with the power of their current PCs. We've hit a point where we really don't need a more powerful PC, and things work so well already that there is no longer the push to get more capable hardware- hardware that usually came with a new license for Windows.

well, if the stock is going to go anywhere... it will do so In the next couple years.

Honestly, I cant see windows phone doing too bad in the future, and while windows 8 has so far been not so stellar, I believe that adoption will pick up with more user friendly options.

On another note, surface has only seen positive feedback, for the most part. I think the improvements brought in 2.0 will boost its appeal.

So all this being said, I mean this guy either made the best choice in his life, or the worst choice in his career. We will see.

Mr. Einhorn is pro-mobile - he's not exactly in love with Apple for their Macs. In fact, Mr. Einhorn has disparaged Macs - he is part of that cadre of analysts and hedge-fund mangers that are "all about mobile".

Interesting to see one persons opinion on things, someone who also knows he apparently has clout and is listened to and also has shares in a competing company, but this is most likely not biased or based on any agenda or anything.