Did Microsoft execs overrule Windows team to put Start button back in Windows 8.1?

Earlier this week, rumors hit the Internet that Microsoft was at least considering putting back the Start button as a feature for the Windows 8.1 desktop user interface. Now another rumor claims that not only is the Start button coming back, but that there was an internal fight at Microsoft to make that happen.

Paul Thurrott posted word on WinSuperSite.com, via unnamed sources, that the Windows team had objections to restoring the Start button for the first major update to Windows 8. However, it appears that Microsoft's upper management made an executive decision and overruled the Windows team, telling them the Start button is back in the Windows 8.1 desktop UI. The article does not give any specifics on which members of the Microsoft executive team pulled the trigger to put the Start button back in Windows 8.1.

Before this week, there's been no indications that Microsoft was going to change its mind on the Start button issue. Indeed, the two leaks of early Windows 8.1 development builds, including one that was posted on the Internet earlier this week, showed no evidence in its code of a Start button revival.

However, there can be no doubt that the missing Start button was one of the most controversial decisions Microsoft made for Windows 8. Research firm IDC said recently the lack of the button was something that Windows 8 user miss "consistently" along with being able to boot Windows 8 into desktop mode. More importantly, a number of third party software solutions have been released that add versions of the Start button back to the Windows 8 desktop, including RetroUI, StartIsBack, Pokki and Start8.

Source: WinSuperSite | Image via Stardock (of Start8)

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If it takes me to the start screen then I would still get a start menu replacement as this won't do what I want.

It's interesting that management seem to be at least considering the opinions of their customers while the Windows team isn't. I normally thought it was supposed to be the other way round...

See I'm really torn about the whole start button thing now.

I went for quite a while having no start button, as windows 8 is meant to be, and it came with it's frustrations at times (Multiple monitors just feels awkward on any but the leftmost to get the menu up). So I felt I could live with no button but wanted it back

I recently installed classic shell for other reasons (Hot corners breaking games...ffs -_-) and let it put the button back. It feels kind of...unnatural to have it opening a screen and is weird to use now. I actually kind of want it back the other way! I can't unless the hot corner thing is fixed again though (Funnily enough, it worked for about 3 months after a windows update, then broke again the next time I let my computer install a windows update...fail)

whether I (or we) agree with having the start menu back, I **think** that perhaps this is a move to (try to) stop the growth of alternative start button/menu software. Perhaps MSFT thinks that adding the start button back would slow-down the adoption of those 3rd party software. Maybe it would increase the end-user acceptance if they see something familiar (even if it takes then to the start screen).

Personally, all I want is a way to search for apps without changing focus from the desktop and a way to fully customise the All Apps section of the start screen without having to go to my AppData\Start Menu\ directory. If those options are added, then I would upgrade my main desktop to Windows 8.

spoetnik said
explain how it is not..
Besides all the big hooplah over the whole MUI (including the Start Screen) and the lack of the Start Menu, Windows 8 is still a great OS. Why: Because, it has been proven several times to be more secure, faster, uses less RAM, and even works better with older hardware than 7. It's more lightweight than any Windows version yet.

I wouldn't argue with some of what you said. Many people may perceive Windows 8 as great and that is fine but some people like this guy that commented said it was a failure and what i say is that it is both. And as much as you wanna scream louder than the other guy to try and cancel out his opinion i say tough too bad and suck it up. His opinion is real and valid. I believe Windows 8 is a big failure and a success at the same time and if you wanna argue with that then you have some major psychological issues because after all the one we thing we SHOULD be all able to agree on is that Windows 8 has split up the windows 8 fanbase into two groups at war and if you can't see that then i dunno what to say lol

spoetnik said
I believe Windows 8 is a big failure and a success at the same time
Care to explain why you believe it's a failure..?

I really don't get why everyone is having a problem over a silly button. I know 8 is a big change and it took me a while to get use to it. But I find that the lack of a button for desktop/notebook computing is just fine. Actually sliding the mouse all the way into the lower left corner and clicking is easier and has the same effect as if there was a button slightly up and over.

I think the biggest problem most people have is what happens after you click/tap start and all you get is animated squares and the familiar menu is gone. Well the next best thing is using your WINDOWS BUTTON + x. This shortcut gives you all the necessary prompts for what the old start menu was used most often for.

Now for Surface and other Windows 8 tablets... yeah. I do think there maybe should be a hard windows button just like on my phone. I wouldn't have problem with that. The swipe and tap for start on touch screens would be simpler with a dedicated hard button.

With 8.1 on the way, what they really need to do is give the user more control over this. Inside the control panel somewhere give us the options to turn these things on and off. Just as in previous windows version where you could change the desktop to basic and go back to windows 95 looks, or disable aero. If they make it easier for the end user to make it their own experience, I think it will make everyone happy.

Arghhhh... People are so conservative... I don't need Start button or menu... I'm right good with Windows 8 scheme... I really hope this start button will can be disabled.

Wireless wookie said
Arghhhh... People are so conservative... I don't need Start button or menu... I'm right good with Windows 8 scheme... I really hope this start button will can be disabled.
Agreed

I really think the start button / menu belongs on a desktop / server OS not needed for tablets. I'm happy if they bring it back. I mostly use Linux but I think it's the right thing for them to do.

tytytucke said,
The start menu doesn't make or brake the OS.

It does for people who use an OS to perform the tasks they want. By forcing a touch-based UI on a person who isn't using a touch-based system, you're placing them within an environment that has absolutely no relevance to them and it hinders their performance.

srprimeaux said
It does for people who use an OS to perform the tasks they want. By forcing a touch-based UI on a person who isn't using a touch-based system, you're placing them within an environment that has absolutely no relevance to them and it hinders their performance.
Explain to me exactly how it hinders the users' performance?

I'm just curious because I get the feeling like a lot of people who complain about it either (ᴀ) haven't used Windows 8 at all, or they (B) haven't customized the Start Screen to their liking yet.

Once they add all their apps, websites, and folders to the Start Screen, I really have a hard time seeing how that hinders their performance.. Everything they want is literally right there in front of them. If they want to go back to the Start Screen but (for ex.) they don't like using hot corners, then all they have to do is press the Windows key. If they want the Desktop again, press the Windows key. That's all.

I think the lack of aid for users to get to know and learn how to use Windows 8 is what really ᴘɪssᴇᴅ 'em off. That's where I personally think Microsoft screwed up.

Edited by dtourond, Apr 21 2013, 2:20am :

dtourond said,
I think the lack of aid for users to get to know and learn how to use Windows 8 is what really ᴘɪssᴇᴅ 'em off. That's where I personally think Microsoft screwed up.

Steven Sinofsky is to blame for windows 8. Not being able to easily flow through the UI fluently, that's the major concern and will be addressed in windows 8.1. Also when I said "The start menu doesn't make or brake the OS." I was referring to the sales figures.

The Windows 8 'touch-based UI' works excellent on a desktop/laptop. Win 8 is far from perfect, but if you adjust and use it differently you can preform effectively on these platforms. Try again on win8.1 or even win8

People are used to win7 and try to use win8 as if its the same OS.
Learn, adjust, preform.

wasting 3 seconds for the extra effort pre action is saved when you account for the beneficial features that save you even more time.

The start menu doesn't make or brake the OS. ?

I think Microsoft would argue with you on that one lol

and dtourond this has been explained endlessly i don't think your listening.

If there is no startmenu then I will continue to use third party alternative and completely avoid the metro abomination. Metro has no place on desktop and pc overall. If MS dare to restrict third party workaround then I will not any further downgrade my system.

Discoverability - a basic UI principle. The Win8 taliban who thought that their fundamentalist approach should override basic usability should never have been allowed near UI design.

It seems the Start menu won't come back, the button will only bring up the Start Screen.
But please can we have the Start Screen WINDOWED on the desktop, not fullscreen.

gb8080 said,
Discoverability - a basic UI principle. The Win8 taliban who thought that their fundamentalist approach should override basic usability should never have been allowed near UI design.

It seems the Start menu won't come back, the button will only bring up the Start Screen.
But please can we have the Start Screen WINDOWED on the desktop, not fullscreen.

Let's hope Windows 8.1 is also for workgroups.

gb8080 said,
Discoverability - a basic UI principle. The Win8 taliban who thought that their fundamentalist approach should override basic usability should never have been allowed near UI design.

I agree 100%.

God yes! Hot corners are the spawn of satan and need to die. On a none touch enabled device (easy for windows to know) turn the bloody things off. Especially the metro app switcher which pops up far too often when I simply want to click the far left top tab in my browser.

Give us some useful desktop additions. Stuff to help productivity and workflow. Eight feels like MS putting two fingers up to desktop users, and Metro feels clumsy and wasteful on large screens.

At no point will I ever buy a desktop PC that has a touch screen. For a couple of reasons.

Firstly, smearing finger prints all over the display I am trying to work on isn't my idea of useful? I am expected to wipe down a 24" or larger screen down every hour or so? Can't exactly wipe with a sleeve like a phone can I....

Secondly, I don't have arms like a bodybuilder and have no idea how waving my arms around on a screen set back from my keyboard on my desk will be comfortable or doable for hours on end. I don't use my phone for 6-8 hours. I use my PC for 6-8 hours though...

Thirdly. Adding a touch screen to my desktop would offer no benefits at all. I'd be able to do nothing extra or useful on the desktop with it... so why bother?

Edited by Joswin, Apr 20 2013, 4:30pm :

This is sane comment from a user who really uses desktop for productivity rather than playing cut the rope on 30 inch computer monitor.

Personally i prefer it not being there, so let's hope there is an option to turn it off.
In an ideal world there would always have been an option.

I'm fine with or without it. I never used it in the first place but I understand that some people just have to have it. Really there should be different modes that can be enabled by the user upon first use and that can be changed at any time. Full touch tablet mode, hybrid touch mode for machines with touch screens but also with mouse keyboard and full on legacy desktop mode for people that can't get the hang of the other modes. That makes the most sense. So lets wait and see.

The problem I see is that it would be difficult to figure out how to implement both hot corners and the traditional Start button in a vertical taskbar setup.

If the taskbar is anywhere but at the bottom of the screen, then either the Start button stays in the bottom left corner and floats in a very strange manner, or the Start screen hotspot ends up shifting to follow the taskbar. That would wreak havoc upon the rest of the Windows 8 UI and make it problematic to consider the other corner hotspots that activate Charms, App switching, etc.

Hotspots are unclear and lame. Basic usability guidelines would surely suggest that when a certain area is to react to a click, there should be a visual indication, like say... a button?

Just put the start button back ffs, Yeah you ****ed up.. so.... do it, put it back for the younger gimps,.... they cant work without it.

Stup0t said,
Just put the start button back ffs, Yeah you ****ed up.. so.... do it, put it back for the younger gimps,.... they cant work without it.

It has more to do with working more efficiently. People are used to doing their work on the PC by utilizing the start menu. If you want to replace it, replace it when something that's even more intuitive. The metro start screen is not intuitive. To move a user from one UI experience to one that's totally different with just a click isn't wise. One should not be required to adjust their methods of accessing information so often as the metro environment mandates. The start menu was doing a fine job. Ever heard of the expression, "If it's not broken, don't fix it"? Well, that applies here. People have jobs to do. You don't make it more difficult for them to do their jobs. That's poor development. You listen to the people and ask them what they want, how they can do their jobs better, and you do that. That's what technology is supposed to do: help people do their jobs, not hinder them.

If they bring back the Start menu (no gimmicks, I am talking about the real thing), then Windows 8.1 might turn to be superior to Windows 7.

rwx said,
If they bring back the Start menu (no gimmicks, I am talking about the real thing), then Windows 8.1 might turn to be superior to Windows 7.

Why? This is what I don't understand about all of you. Removing the start button forces development for the windows store so they can compete in the future. If they bring it back, there's no good reason for companies to develop for it anymore and Windows 8 becomes a glorified Windows 7. Bringing it back wont help PC sales and will bring on disinterest in Microsoft faster than ever.

spenser.d said,

Why? This is what I don't understand about all of you. Removing the start button forces development for the windows store so they can compete in the future. If they bring it back, there's no good reason for companies to develop for it anymore and Windows 8 becomes a glorified Windows 7. Bringing it back wont help PC sales and will bring on disinterest in Microsoft faster than ever.


Microsoft should have done 2 stores, one for mobile (Metro apps) and one for desktop (win32/win64/.net apps).
There's no reason why desktop users to be forced to use a store meant primarily for mobile devices and use dumb, full screen apps.
If you ask me, I don't give a **** about this metro store and I couldn't care less if it'll get closed (on desktop Windows variant) sooner or later.

Mortis said,

Microsoft should have done 2 stores, one for mobile (Metro apps) and one for desktop (win32/win64/.net apps).
There's no reason why desktop users to be forced to use a store meant primarily for mobile devices and use dumb, full screen apps.
If you ask me, I don't give a **** about this metro store and I couldn't care less if it'll get closed (on desktop Windows variant) sooner or later.

Well then you clearly have no sense for where the industry is heading. If the Windows Store fails and closes, Microsoft will have nothing to compete with in the coming years. Tablets are on track to outsell desktop PCs as soon as 2015. On top of that, this story directly contradicts Microsoft's fiscal reports. They're doing very well right now and thus have no reason whatsoever to put the start menu back in. There's no start menu in the future, and I doubt Microsoft is going to go ahead and take a step backwards.

spenser.d said,

Well then you clearly have no sense for where the industry is heading. If the Windows Store fails and closes, Microsoft will have nothing to compete with in the coming years. Tablets are on track to outsell desktop PCs as soon as 2015. On top of that, this story directly contradicts Microsoft's fiscal reports. They're doing very well right now and thus have no reason whatsoever to put the start menu back in. There's no start menu in the future, and I doubt Microsoft is going to go ahead and take a step backwards.


Well, I won't for one EVER use my PC as a tablet and I don't need tablet junk software on my PC.

This halfway house solution could actually break my workflow.

At the moment I use the Start screen at boot and for Metro apps, but I have Start8 on the desktop. This is mainly because I don't want to switch from the desktop to access anything not pinned to the taskbar, and because at the moment for some things the Start8 menu is still easier to work with than the Start screen - something that seems to be improving in 8.1. Note I don't go hunting through the multi-layered menus - I type what I want - but often without even taking my eyes off something already open.

I really hope this addition of a Start button doesn't block the ability to have a Start menu on the desktop. Though I expect Stardock or another third party will just find a way to mod it again if so.

It seems like majority of people who don't like old start menu are:
A) Group of teenagers who never did any serious work on a PC and other casual simpletons who use one or two application at the time, so they are not getting why old start menu is superior over new start menu.
B) Group of tablet users who benefit from new start menu but have no clue why vertical screen, and hands comfortably resting on the mouse and keyboard are ergonomically superior over the touch screen.

Thing is that professional PC users run multiple applications at the same time, have to monitor their status and switch between applications frequently. Desktop with task bar was designed for that. Old start menu is perfect for this desktop environment because it is compact and you can launch any application or search for something without covering all working area or losing sight of your applications. New start menu is ridiculously intrusive on desktop environment. Microsoft decided to tailor their product to A) and B) majority, but professional users rule over enterprise environment sector and this is the reason why Windows 8 is failing.

Edited by EJocys, Apr 20 2013, 8:26am :

Yet, the taskbar in Windows 8 isn't gone, it is still there , offering the same advantages as the one in Windows 7. Apart from that, the alt+tab keycombination is also still present (inlcuding the thumbnail preview).

It is not a stretch to claim Windows 8 is actually better suited for multitasking then Windows 7, as I have more resources to my disposal, and the whole OS is running at a greater speed.

This only leaves the full screen start screen experience, now invoking programs from this start screen actually is quicker than using the Multi layered start menu, and since your focus is at launching another program, it being full screen for the second it takes to launch that program, is inconsequential.

sjaak327 said,
for the second it takes to launch that program, is inconsequential.
Yes, inconsequential like mosquito buzz.

Certainly the subject most talked about when Windows 8 is concerned.

I for one do not believe these rumours, but then again I do not have sources inside Microsoft to refute these rumours.

I will have to rely on common sense.

Now, there seem to be two distinct options here, the first is the return of the start button, which is nothing more than a visual clue. There IS a start button in Windows 8, it is just hidden. Now I don't really understand why this start button has to be visible at all times, it is hardly rocket science to know where it is and how to invoke it. In fact, I personally invoke the start screen by pressing the Windows button, which is quicker than using the mouse to invoke it,.

The second scenario would be the return of both the start button and the start menu. This would maybe be a good thing if it is OPTIONAL, just so that people that don't like the new startscreen have the option to go retro.

Again I personally would not use it, as I believe the new startscreen is much better. In fact the old start menu largely lost it's usefullness starting with Vista, when instant search became a much quicker way to launch applications as opposed to navigating the start menu with it's multiple layers. But as said, as long as it is optional, I have nothing against it.

Now for booting straight into the desktop, this is simply silly. What advantage is offered by booting straight into the desktop ? I suppose nobody saves a click unless all you do is stare at the desktop all day. But if you actually want to boot into the desktop, and than launch a program from it, you can also launch that very same program from the start screen, which in turn also starts the desktop. Of course at least staring at the start screen with the live tiles, actually has a purpose, staring at static icons on the desktop doesn't.

Why not add back the Start button? How much space would it save on the taskbar by removing it?

Adding the Start button could save some confusion to new Windows 8 users better than the useless extra space....

How difficult should it be to create a option?! Startscreen or Startmenu... It wasn't that difficult back in the day when Windows XP came out...

Wouter52 said,
How difficult should it be to create a option?! Startscreen or Startmenu... It wasn't that difficult back in the day when Windows XP came out...
As diffecult as making a normal toolbar and the Ribbon. All options need to be integrated in both interfaces. And Metro is the winner this time.

Not bad. i always use Startisback. But i have more recently started using the default windows 8 start screen. A button instead of an invisible corner is a no brainer of an idea.

Windows 7 was a very successful operating system, and it still is, without it there would be no Microsoft large profits, once corporates stop using Windows, then they also stop using anything Microsoft that runs on Windows.

Windows 8 could have been a huge success, a full desktop OS and a full Tablet OS, but instead, it is a very annoying desktop OS, and not yet ready Tablet OS, good job.

There is no reason stopping Windows to be both, except some stupid team members / managers at the Windows division at Microsoft.

john.smith_2084 said
Windows 8 could have been a huge success, a full desktop OS and a full Tablet OS, but instead, it is a very annoying desktop OS, and not yet ready Tablet OS, good job.
Well Windows 8 is off to a slow start, but it is climbing slowly. About ~10% of Steam users are using Windows 8 and over 3% market share isn't that bad.

I don't find it annoying because unlike most users who actually tried it, I took the time to learn how to use it.

dtourond said,
I don't find it annoying because unlike most users who actually tried it, I took the time to learn how to use it.

It's great if you know how to use it. Most people don't... but having the start button actually visible would probably go a long way towards helping people feel more comfortable.

Just integrate Start8 and its all done
Everything back in one package, no extra spending.
Menu lovers turn it on and menu haters turn it off.

I'm happy as long as the desktop is still there and Metro/Modern can just stay in a corner.

iron2000 said
Just integrate Start8 and its all done
Everything back in one package, no extra spending.
Menu lovers turn it on and menu haters turn it off.

I'm happy as long as the desktop is still there and Metro/Modern can just stay in a corner.

.. Or you could just learn how to use the Start Screen.

spoetnik said
Learning it has nothing to do with liking it or wanting to use it.
Actually, sometimes when you learn how to use something, you end up liking it, or want to use it more because you know how to use it.

they noticed that they had a 15% drop in sales... and I think the reason is because of the new metro interface. frankly, it scares consumers...

Maybe there is some sense in this company, after all. I am still a bit mind boggled regarding the direction and changes they have made to their Windows platform.

****ING FINALLY
so the guys with ties in the higher ups looked at Windows 8 sales and just " sigh.... " then rushed down to Microsoft's lab and said: 'stfu nerds i want the start menu or your job back' and so everyone was happy. THE END

Deihmos said
Now let aero glass make a return and I will install Windows 8 again.
Really.. That's all that's keeping you from getting Windows 8.

Deihmos said,
Now let aero glass make a return and I will install Windows 8 again.
You're free to search for Aero Glas for Windows 8 Release Preview and instap, that one. It also works in Windows 8.

That any other things like the start screen. I can work much faster in Windows 7 and I don't like the look of the desktop in Windows 8.

i kind of scared of even posting because i got a warning for not liking microsoft products and i guess its a rule that you must .

but anyway what ever i am glad to see the start button coming back

The removal of the start button is one of those thing were you think the developers went "Full retard". I can see them wanting to remove the start menu in replacement of the start screen, but the start button, and not just remove it but keep it and hide it???????

Yeah I never got that either. I don't like the Start Screen but I accept it's like that it's here to stay. But to remove the start button did seem pretty crazy and if the rumours are true and it's coming back, I'll be pleased.

warwagon said,
The removal of the start button is one of those thing were you think the developers went "Full retard". I can see them wanting to remove the start menu in replacement of the start screen, but the start button, and not just remove it but keep it and hide it???????

So where are they going to put the start button in metro apps?
They can't. So you will need to know and use that bottom left hot corner anyways.
And if you can use that on metro, you sure can use it on desktop.

Also, it doesn't matter if there is a start button or not. When using mouse, you move it to bottom left corner with a fast flick and click.
If you don't believe me, go to windows 7. Try to open start menu by clicking "on the start icon" and by clicking the bottom left corner. Later will always be faster and easier.

I just want to quote what a fellow user had said. This was very well said that I had to share it here in my own comment.

From Xerxes
All that said it is rather jarring to use at first and after using the start menu for so many years it does feel like it goes against the grain, but if your willing to work with it and take your time to learn it you'll be just as efficient as you were previously (if not more so). I think the main problem is people just can't get past the initial discomfort it brings when you first start using it. I mean it took me months to finally get to grips with it (went back to 7 several times and for a while was very vocally opposed to 8) but you adapt.

The start screen is far from perfect and it still needs alot of work but is it the way forward and version 1 things tend to be crappy to begin with anyway (just look at Vista, everyone hated that but look what it became and how much people loved it Well that is my 2 cents, take with a grain of salt.

Parts in bold are my favorite parts from that.

dtourond said,
I just want to quote what a fellow user had said. This was very well said that I had to share it here in my own comment.

He's wrong, there is so much missing, or hidden or else everything FULL SCREEN, in your face on a 27" monitor which has no touch capabilities.

Windows 8 is useless.

dvb2000 said
He's wrong, there is so much missing, or hidden or else everything FULL SCREEN, in your face on a 27" monitor which has no touch capabilities.
What is missing in the Start Screen. Please elaborate on that..

dvb2000 said
Windows 8 is useless.
Apart from the fact that it's faster, more secure, uses less RAM, works a helluva lot better on older hardware than 7, and offers some new features, how is it useless..?

dtourond said,
Apart from the fact that it's more secure, uses less RAM, works a helluva lot better on older hardware than 7

Actually it's similar to Windows 7 in that regard. Are you sure you're not making things up or confusing XP in there?

Raa said
Actually it's similar to Windows 7 in that regard. Are you sure you're not making things up or confusing XP in there?
Nope Ever since I first heard of Windows 8, I've been keeping a close eye on how different it is, and it's everything I've mentioned has been proven already.

dvb2000 said,

He's wrong, there is so much missing, or hidden or else everything FULL SCREEN, in your face on a 27" monitor which has no touch capabilities.

Windows 8 is useless.


Then dont use Modern Apps? Geesh.
The desktop is still very much the same, and in many ways improved. Use it unbiased for once and if its such a drag, install start8, startisback, classicshell or any other... use the Aero glass theme from wincustomize.com and tadá... Windows 7 with just 3minutes of work. Considering the setup of Windows 8 is a few minutes less then Windows 7, there is no time lost! Win-win for all of us.

complete BS. this has been proven because many people HAVE tried to work with it and found there productivity hampered period.

People can't get past the discomfort ? says who ? How can someone know what everyone on earth is thinking ? Again many people have had no issues learning how to use it and found it irritating. Example:
http://www.zdnet.com/from-wind...hy-i-downgraded-7000006922/

And please stop re-writing history to suit the Windows 8 popularity contest.

Your quoted comment is pure ignorance and arrogance.

The corporate world wants the start button back so Microsoft is giving it to them so they will buy Windows 8...that is all this is about, if you don't like the Start button then don't use it...

Microsfot had itrs success because its different from apple and didn't ram stuff down your throat, this whole lets make everything have the same UI is great in THEROY... in practice it sucks.

Windows has always had a ton of different versions aimed at different segments of the market, windows 8 is perfect for touch and tablet devices, for serious desktop work you cant go past win7/vista.


and your delusional if you think its all to do with the start button, its more than that, especially multitasking, and don't give me the but you need to learn the new way. NO!
that whats great about the old windows versiosn, everybody ahs their own little way of doing things, whereas now everyone is being FORCED into 1 way, which is always going to lead to a backlash.
and big corps aren't going to spend millions on upgrading their software then spend even more millions retraining workers!!

Hitman2000 said,
Microsfot had itrs success because its different from apple and didn't ram stuff down your throat, this whole lets make everything have the same UI is great in THEROY... in practice it sucks.

Windows has always had a ton of different versions aimed at different segments of the market, windows 8 is perfect for touch and tablet devices, for serious desktop work you cant go past win7/vista.


and your delusional if you think its all to do with the start button, its more than that, especially multitasking, and don't give me the but you need to learn the new way. NO!
that whats great about the old windows versiosn, everybody ahs their own little way of doing things, whereas now everyone is being FORCED into 1 way, which is always going to lead to a backlash.
and big corps aren't going to spend millions on upgrading their software then spend even more millions retraining workers!!


Multitasking on Windows 8 is identical to Windows 7 mate.
ALT+TAB gives you the same popover menu as Windows 7, except its a little bit more squared.
The taskbar, by default its almost identical to Windows 7, except the start menu button is missing, and language is by default to the left of the clock instead of to the left of your notification icons.
The programs themself, I havent personally encountered anything that ran on Windows 7 that doesnt run on Windows 8. Still windowed, side by side or on top, or full screen.
There is plenty of room to improve the new additions for sure. And I'm very sure they will.
But people claiming the desktop side of Windows 8 is unuseable are just plain wrong. Yes a few things a different, but its far from unuseable and in many aspects far better then Windows 7 OOTB.

Bringing it back won't change anything from my experience, as I haven't clicked any Start Button ever since I discovered that a key on my keyboard with a little window flag on it does the same thing.

My keyboard doesn't have a Windows key. Sure I can hit Ctrl+Esc but that's not the point, there was zero reason in the universe to remove a button that most consumers have been used to having for decades and replace it with a hidden popup menu in the corner. An OS should be intuitive to use, not one of those hidden object games.

Edited by Bonfire, Apr 20 2013, 3:00am :

xankazo said,
I haven't clicked any Start Button ever since I discovered that a key on my keyboard with a little window flag on it does the same thing.

So tell us what you do when you push the "Windows key". Oh' you moved your mouse to the start menu and clicked on what you wanted to run?

Seems like a waste of time not just moving the mouse down there in the first place and click on on the start button, cause you are going to have to do that and more with the mouse next anyway.

No. In fact I don't even need the mouse period. I hit windows key, enter one or two letters (depending on the program I want to launch) and hit enter.

The mouse is great for precision, it isn't and has never been great for speed. Allowing me to remain on the keyboard is one of the greatest assets of Windows.

Getting rid of the Start button (not menu that's a separate discussion) was a HUGE mistake, both in brand loyalty/recognition and in simple UI design. I'm glad to see it come back.

And is Windows XP for work, Windows 95 for retail store cashiers?
We'll see how much of a difference there is when you're still using Windows 7 in 10 years, while the rest of the world learns to move on.

I say.. Put the button back into the left corner but when people click it for the first time it pops up a message saying "Change is inevitable! Get over it!" And the button then disappears. /s /s /s

Exactly so get ready for it because what some of us want is a CHANGE to how things are now.

I guess people should have said that to Obama during his campaign right ?
He never should have been elected he is a whiner and should just get used to how things are lol

I love the "get over it" crew lol
You people love stuffing your foot in your mouth don't you lol

spoetnik said,
You people love stuffing your foot in your mouth don't you lol
You do see the THREE /s there don't you?

I think it would be a stepbackwards from Microsoft to put it back in, they've committed to a set path with the end objective being a unified desktop and tablet OS , if they weren't prepared for some pain along the way then they should have expanded the win8 development down a different path.

They've added plenty of improvements for desktop users that are focused on the classic desktop experience (like the updated Explorer), how is adding a button you can see and click on a stepbackwards?

virtorio said,
They've added plenty of improvements for desktop users that are focused on the classic desktop experience (like the updated Explorer), how is adding a button you can see and click on a stepbackwards?

For users like myself with multiple monitors, anything apart from the bottom left monitor is a pain in the rear to bring up the start screen with nothing to click on. It can be done, if you slow down. The worse part is, the start key to bring up the start screen has a mind of its own, popping up on what ever screen it likes. I'd have thought pressing the start key would bring it up on the monitor with the mouse on.. but oh noes. it don't. it comes up on the last monitor you used metro UI with. So if you were using an app on that screen, full screen or side pinned. They're removed and replaced with the start screen. Go away from the start screen, apps don't come back, you have to re-switch to them and then re-side pin if that's what you were using them for. Not only that but any progress in the apps is halted.

It's not just about having a start button, the way the metro UI interacts with the desktop needs to be updating, majorly. Hopefully Microsoft has addressed the problems like these in the 8.1 'blue' update, but it'll be seen how well it works. If it doesn't, then giving users an option to bring back the start button, menu and disable metro might be the best thing for 'desktop' users. Otherwise it's just a hindrance.

Personally I don't care if they put the 'start' button back or not to the Desktop, I've grown to like the new layout very much.

Once the Desktop goes all together (and let's face it, that's the way it will go in a few - several years when the legacy software will reduce). The more touch enabled devices become the 'norm' this will drive the exodus away from Desktop because there is no way you can really make a good touch environment in that layout. Touch and Gesture will become common on the desk PC too - not just on mobile devices (as some say Win8 is great on Tablets but not on desk PCs).

From memory there was a whole lot of whining when the GUI came into effect, and then it hit the fan when Win95 came out...

If the start button comes back to the Desktop ... Please FFSake don't put the word 'Start' on it.

How am I supposed to do pixel perfect image editing with a touchscreen, or efficiently process my multi-gigabite collection of documents outside the desktop?

You do realize that there are millions of people who use desktop PC's on a daily basis, right? How intuitive will it be to create an Access query on a touchscreen? I'd pull my hair out and then find someone else's when I have none left.

tropolite said,
From memory there was a whole lot of whining when the GUI came into effect, and then it hit the fan when Win95 came out...

The difference there was program manager that the explorer shell (task bar/start menu) replace could be reverted back to using program manager. It was included up until XP and you could use it simply by settings shell=progman.exe in the system.ini file.

At least we had a choice back then, Microsoft pushed the Metro UI (Designed a touch interface for mobile devices remember) onto the desktop machines when real users of desktop machines need precision, keyboard and mouse. Hence why Microsoft hasn't even made the switch to Metro with their own Office software.

Heck even their own basic core apps from the Metro store aren't even useful. They provide little to no features of their desktop or web based version. A total flop.

At least Windows 95 over-hall was actually useful for it's users and could be reverted back if needed.

I use a desktop PC every working day and then some. You know MS are developing touch-centric Office right (OfficeMX)? This is my point, the Desktop is limiting because of the layout. With new tech such as Leap Motion or Kinect 2 (with highly sensitive finger gestures enabled), as an example, we're only touching the surface (or not excuse the pun).

Keyboards and mice will still be around for a while but new tech is coming all the time for Human Interfacing. First touch, and gestures. Remember when you needed to get up off the couch to turn the channel on the TV? Then remotes came into being, now Voice. There is a similar innovative move in the IT world.

tropolite said,
I use a desktop PC every working day and then some. You know MS are developing touch-centric Office right (OfficeMX)? .

I use OneNote MX quite often and I like it because I have always been a big fan of the radial menu concept; said this it is undeniable that the program is missing a lot of the functionalities of the Desktop version. It might be possible that in V2 we will see a parity in functionalities but until then Office will remain a desktop software.

tropolite said,
I use a desktop PC every working day and then some. You know MS are developing touch-centric Office right (OfficeMX)? This is my point, the Desktop is limiting because of the layout. With new tech such as Leap Motion or Kinect 2 (with highly sensitive finger gestures enabled), as an example, we're only touching the surface (or not excuse the pun).

Keyboards and mice will still be around for a while but new tech is coming all the time for Human Interfacing. First touch, and gestures. Remember when you needed to get up off the couch to turn the channel on the TV? Then remotes came into being, now Voice. There is a similar innovative move in the IT world.

Gestures aren't going to help with that image editor, and there's no way I'm going to do *all* of my writing on a touchscreen

tropolite said,
I use a desktop PC every working day and then some. You know MS are developing touch-centric Office right (OfficeMX)? This is my point, the Desktop is limiting because of the layout. With new tech such as Leap Motion or Kinect 2 (with highly sensitive finger gestures enabled), as an example, we're only touching the surface (or not excuse the pun).

Keyboards and mice will still be around for a while but new tech is coming all the time for Human Interfacing. First touch, and gestures. Remember when you needed to get up off the couch to turn the channel on the TV? Then remotes came into being, now Voice. There is a similar innovative move in the IT world.

A remote control made something we did easier to do. That's true innovation. To date, I've yet to experience anything that makes the keyboard and mouse obsolete when it comes to doing work on a desktop - especially data entry/analysis. I see experiments and ideas being thrown about, and that's fine, but the moment people themselves are thrown into the mix with no choice in the matter, that's a problem.

I never seen one single person complain about windows 95 and i took a computer course when it came out so i'm not some kid that was born after they made it..
And are you whining about whiners ? lol hilarious !

And get rid of the desktop ?
I think this is their private agenda and if they do they are gonna get crucified lol
Because its a dumb idea. In no way ever is tablets gonna replace desktops implying that is hilarious.

People like you make me cringe ughh

spoetnik said,
I never seen one single person complain about windows 95 and i took a computer course when it came out so i'm not some kid that was born after they made it..
And are you whining about whiners ? lol hilarious !

And get rid of the desktop ?
I think this is their private agenda and if they do they are gonna get crucified lol
Because its a dumb idea. In no way ever is tablets gonna replace desktops implying that is hilarious.

People like you make me cringe ughh

I don't know what rock you were living under back then, and it can be forgiven for the lack of mainstream internet access but seriously...
If you read ANY PC related magazine or even watched the news reports on the TV about it you'd have seen something.
The whine from people complaining about the lack of program manager/introduction of the start menu/task bar and indeed replacing fileman with Windows explorer was probably bigger then the complaints about Windows 8.

Every magazine I picked up for months had tutorials in it on how to change back to program manager, getting the old 16bit programs working, removing boot to desktop and booting to DOS etc.
The only things that have changed this time is Microsoft is much bigger and business users won't fall back to Mac, so can use its hold on the community at large to removed choice.

As for getting rid of the desktop.. well, people are doing that for them.
While most people got a PC for internet just 10 years ago, recently we've seen a shift into mini 'netbook' laptops, and quickly that progressed into tablets. All the time the mobile phone has advanced thanks to Apple's iphone that gave people real internet in their hand. With apps such as facebook, there is no need for the majority of people to even use a PC anymore.
These are the big consumers that Microsoft is trying to target now, if they don't get a hold of them now, and quickly they're going to have lost a substantial market share to the ipad and other tablets.
PC sales from mass consumers are down, tablets and mobile phone sales are up.

The desktop 'PC' might never go away for people who actually need and want to use it as a tool, but for everyone else, tablets and other smart devices is where the world is heading, and it's not companies like Microsoft, Apple etc driving that, its consumers buying into mobile tech. They could have brought a PC this year, but instead, they got a couple of tablets and smart phones for the family to use instead.

Unfortunately, Microsoft also thinks the desktop OS GUI needs to change too. I'm not sure what they're thinking in terms of actual use, be it users will be too alienated by the gap, or they think apple might bring out a iOS based Mac that takes the desktop market over .. but I'm edging my bets on they're trying to use their monopoly to grab as many Windows eco-system app users under the Microsoft account branding as possible before they're too small for anyone to care for.
Right now, The Windows Phone users account for less then 1% of the market. Yet, everyone who uses Windows 8, automatically has a account and they'll understand the metro concept if they see a Windows Phone next. They can push crap onto the consumer that way if they like it or not. So in a way, it's kind of Microsoft's last chance.

iOS devices outnumber Windows PC sales by far now, and that's only 50% of the mobile market. That's a huge amount of customers for Microsoft to lose.
At this rate, Microsoft is in real trouble and need to do something to save the desktop. Otherwise, it could be 'the year of linux'... ironically, Android is Linux and is pushing more numbers then Windows right now...
And even then, If the likes of Ubuntu phone where you can phone in your pocket, or when dock a powerful desktop machine.. it might be the end of what we see as 'desktop' lumps.

I can envisage not having a Microsoft Windows desktop OS anymore, I wouldn't be surprised if our desktop cases went away too. One thing I think will stay is the keyboard. The touch screen might double up as a touch pad for the mouse, but certainly we need a good way of typing data in accurately, and unless voice recognition has a huge leap, keyboards will have to stay for a bit longer, even if it's a projected type.

Should i use the wayback machine web site to help prove my point ?
I see a clear pattern of twisting around history to suit the agenda around here, people do it ALL the time.. ohhh people hated Windows XP as much as Vista or what ever lol It's BS !
I had one of the first computers made as a kid..
http://oldcomputers.net/trs80i.html
I played games on cassette tapes and later i played stuff like Choplifter on my uncle's PC's with jumbo floppies (he is a scientist and a pc nerd)
So i bet i was doing this stuff before you were even born lol
Regardless i sure as hell know what I'm talking about

wow, this is very good news, now please put back the aero transparency and millions of people will be happy.

I don't care about the start menu, the start screen is nice, the aero glass is missing

When I see it, I'll believe it. Frankly, I do not need it but if it shuts up the whiners, then I'll be happy it's back.

Whatever the limited functionality, it begins to restore confidence in Microsoft to see that executive management have found their backbone and are making smart decisions. It appears no longer are the inmates running the asylum. Technical Professionals are technical by nature and not managers for a reason.

If they bring back the button, and the original start menu with options to disable that Metro bull****. I'll buy the OS again.

Nope, according to the MS employees and fanboys that slither around here, choice = bad. Windows 8 is the first version of Windows that DOES NOT support a backward compatibility mode with at least .INI or reg tweaks. Windows95 supported it with .ini tweaks, WinXP and forward had Classic theme, etc.

Metro is a big crap sandwich and we're all supposed to take a bite, or we're "haters". Too funny.

I agree. It's amazing that having an opposing opinions makes you wrong on here. Should have seen a few of us who don't like our Lumia 920s anymore. We were the worst people on Earth, owned by Samsung etc.

Why can't they let desktop users have the old UI and turn on Metro if you're using a touch screen? Best of both worlds.

At least the executives at MS aren't stupid. They should just fire the Windows UI team.

yachoo7 said,

At least the executives at MS aren't stupid. They should just fire the Windows UI team.

The were stupid as this should have been done in the first place. Poor sales and unyielding customer complaints have helped them find their balls.

yachoo7 said,
Why can't they let desktop users have the old UI and turn on Metro if you're using a touch screen? Best of both worlds.

At least the executives at MS aren't stupid. They should just fire the Windows UI team.

Exactly! I even despised Apple when they started bringing in iOS features into OS X. Stop it, please. Both of you! Leave the desktop OS alone. It's made for a mouse and a keyboard. Design it in that context. Goodness.

srprimeaux said,

Exactly! I even despised Apple when they started bringing in iOS features into OS X. Stop it, please. Both of you! Leave the desktop OS alone. It's made for a mouse and a keyboard. Design it in that context. Goodness.


Yet the improvements desktop side on Windows 8 are much bigger and better then from Vista to Windows 7. And people cheered for Windows 7.
With today's higher resolutions, im glad i have the ribbon in explorer, giving me quick access to common used shortcuts. Much better then having this tiny little menu button with drop downs in drop downs under drops down with popup windows etc.
Less wasted space on the desktop, no meaningless start button(I am aware I'm using Windows!). Also the improved taskbar, now with Multi monitor support (removed my reason to install crappy buggy 3rd party alternatives).
And simple things like finally a build in ISO mounter.
Also the more mousecontrolled things like the app switcher (i do hope 8.1 adds desktop apps seperately to make it actually usefull on a desktop), charms bar gives me some quick options i used need to open the control panel for, (also hope this gets improved). The cleaner looking desktop makes everything look more calm and smooth. I personally dont like the flashy stuff and used Classic most of my time on Windows 7. Windows 8 standard all black theme actually looks great in my opinion.

So for me it looks cleaner, gives me more functional space on my monitor and removes the use of some 3rd party tools.
So why is the desktop worse? It improved IMHO.

It's not so much the desktop, it's designing an OS that's made for a mouse and keyboard within a touch paradigm. I applaud all of the under-the-hood changes made in Windows 8, but there's no reason for me to have to see huge utility buttons and task bars when I'm using a keyboard and a mouse. A mouse pointer doesn't need a huge surface area to do its job whereas a finger does.

Update Windows 7 to include the improvements made in Windows 8 and release "Windows 8 Desktop Edition" and we're done.

Mouse is made for precision, but most people cant aim it for sh*t.
Even myself, I'm raised with it. I came into IT stuff and computers when the CLI was being replaced by a desktop GUI. Been using a mouse for 2 decades now, played FPS and am good at them too. Yet i miss click tiny sh*tty little buttons and menu's often enough. And the casual user will move the mouse allot slower when he has to do more precise work. How small many things are like in XP is just old, the start menu and drop down menu's everywhere are designed on a 800x600-1024x800 desktop! Not for the HD resolutions we use today. So personally a slight increase in size, the small tiles aren't that much bigger then desktop icons (much more clearer though, so it might give the impression is 5times bigger then a desktop icon) and additions like the ribbon menu to explorer are a very welcome change.

If any it speeds up, I used my mouse ALLOT less on Windows 7 and used the shortcuts and keyboard allot. With Windows 8, I can do allot more and finally faster with just the mouse. I dont have to be so precise with those fugly dropdown menu's in explorer. or stare at my desktop looking for that program or icon that is somewhere in a screen jampacked full with icons. Or a menu that on old installs with user that game regulary or like to try out software's..... gets just so packed full of menu's in menu's and expanding menu's.... I personally dislike focussing on those little bars of 10pixels high on a 1080p+ resolution.

Edited by ShadowMajestic, Apr 21 2013, 4:22am :

HD resolutions we use today ?

no your wrong.

and nobody cares if you want to memorize a million shortcuts that is YOUR way of doing things.. I prefer not using them because i often use 1 hand while surfing the web etc. Again as always it boils down to assuming everyone should do things your way because your way is the right way and everyone else is dumb if they don't do things how you want them to.

Great start, but removing all flavors of the metro-touch experience would be nice as well. I don't need to be clicking on giant squares and rectangles.

srprimeaux said,
Great start, but removing all flavors of the metro-touch experience would be nice as well. I don't need to be clicking on giant squares and rectangles.

Then don't.... just type and hit enter you uninformed whiner. Just because you dont' like something, doesn't mean everyone else doesn't. Plus 'giant squares'... if you don't like that, then make them smaller (which u can in 8.1)

srprimeaux said,
"Then don't.... just type and hit enter you uninformed whiner."

Someone's offended.

Or hes actually just a whiner...

Windows Nashville said,

No, the "whiners" are the Windows 8 apologists who have all but ruined Neowin for the majority.

How do you whine positively? lol Isn't the whole point of whining a negative thing? (Since so called Win8 "apologists" make everything they say sound positive.)

Windows Nashville said,

No, the "whiners" are the Windows 8 apologists who have all but ruined Neowin for the majority.

Oh do hush. You're both as bad as each other. Maybe if either of you realised their was a middle ground, which is that people like different things, then maybe we could have a decent discussion on this forum again with trolling, bashing and flaming every 5 minutes.

Mikeffer said,

Oh do hush. You're both as bad as each other. Maybe if either of you realised their was a middle ground, which is that people like different things, then maybe we could have a decent discussion on this forum again with trolling, bashing and flaming every 5 minutes.

Actually I have no problem with Windows 8.. I don't like touching Win7 anymore.

Mikeffer said,

Windows 8 haters and Windows 8 fan boys.


I don't see how anything I said to Nashville makes me a fanboy. I was just picking on his word use is all..

statm1 said,

I don't see how anything I said to Nashville makes me a fanboy. I was just picking on his word use is all..

Bejesus man! At know point did i mention you! I can't believe it's taking so many comments for you realise that.

One last time... When i say "Both" i am referring to Win8 haters and Win8 fanboys. At no point in the whole thread did i say you were either of them.

srprimeaux said,
"Then don't.... just type and hit enter you uninformed whiner."

Someone's offended.

ya wow you see people banned for hating on windows 8 but these guys are allowed to make personal attacks on people like that ? and as far a I'm concerned he was the one whining. And i agree with OP i think it would be great if all functionality would be turned off not only because of functionality reason but just to bloody get over this nasty war going on.. We need to be unified fans and not teams of haters and fanboys constantly at war. I see a blind eye on people saying stuff like this though. If you criticize windows 8 around here the mod's will turn their back on the issue and let people attack them endlessly yet if the situation is reversed then..

oh and if they did enable users to disable metro etc
Microsoft could then have all users onboard AND they would probably get a lot more customers that are rejecting the new OS. It would be Win/Win for MS.

LOL. I can't believe what a big deal it is that the little Windows icon in the bottom left corner is not present in Windows 8. You can still click that corner to bring the start screen up. Putting the little icon back isn't going to make the start menu come back, it's just going to waste space on the taskbar.

I just think that many desktop users hate the idea of hot corners and clicking in places where there is nothing.
I really wish the start screen would allow the creation of folders though, like the start menu had.

Avi Patel said,
I just think that many desktop users hate the idea of hot corners and clicking in places where there is nothing.
I really wish the start screen would allow the creation of folders though, like the start menu had.

But did people actually aim for the Windows logo in the corner? I know I just move my mouse down and left quickly which moves my cursor into the right place and click. Works the same in 8.

Avi Patel said,
I just think that many desktop users hate the idea of hot corners and clicking in places where there is nothing.
Umm, I don't know about your copy of Windows 8.. When I move my mouse to the bottom left corner I always have something to click. There is no way of clicking in the bottom left corner, on places where there is nothing. There will always be the thumbnail to click.

As well as on the charmsbar, you don't click on anything until you hover and get the charms bar to appear and then you have plenty to click on. At no time do you have to click on "nothing."

mrp04 said,

But did people actually aim for the Windows logo in the corner? I know I just move my mouse down and left quickly which moves my cursor into the right place and click. Works the same in 8.


If you try to do it using a pen you will note that it is not so easy to catch the magic spot.

Honestly I liked the implementation that was present in the earlier Windows 8 builds:

http://cdn.redmondpie.com/wp-c...ows-off-high-contrast-d.jpg

Puts the important things in a place that's easy to find, and doesn't require weird mouse corner gestures.

I understand the edge gestures for pure touchscreen devices, but I think that sort of start menu would be a nice middle ground for those who aren't on a touchscreen all the time.

Stetson said,
Honestly I liked the implementation that was present in the earlier Windows 8 builds:

http://cdn.redmondpie.com/wp-c...ows-off-high-contrast-d.jpg

Puts the important things in a place that's easy to find, and doesn't require weird mouse corner gestures.

I understand the edge gestures for pure touchscreen devices, but I think that sort of start menu would be a nice middle ground for those who aren't on a touchscreen all the time.

Agreed.

siah1214 said,
Please please please let me turn it off.

I agree. I like having those few extra pixels on my tiny 1366x768 resolution which the majority of laptops use. I don't see a reason to have a permanent Windows icon sitting in the bottom left doing nothing. I know I'm using Windows.

I'd be fine with that. I appreciate there are some people using smaller screened, tablet devices, that need all the screen 'real estate' they can get. I'm never going to own / run a Windows tablet so screen space is less important to me - so I'd prefer to have the button back!

Chicane-UK said,
I'd be fine with that. I appreciate there are some people using smaller screened, tablet devices, that need all the screen 'real estate' they can get. I'm never going to own / run a Windows tablet so screen space is less important to me - so I'd prefer to have the button back!

The problem is bloat. Keep everything in Windows kept it a heavy os, they've been able to cut some corners now and you already see how much lighter Windows 8 is versus Windows 7. And RT even more. To keep everything happy is why Windows is still a very heavy OS. For everyone else there is google
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=i+want+my+start+menu+back!+%3A(

for sure great point !
i would like to see the old start menu brought back but as it stands right now i don't think the button should be enabled by default (if brought back) and that it could be controlled with a control panel setting or what ever. I am "one of them" but i can see that the Metro UI has become popular with many people and the cat is out of the bag so we need to respect the fans and the so called haters i think. I want the old system back but I'd like to see them continue with their new functionality but on a more optional and configurable basis.

Windows Nashville said,
LOL at the Win 8 apologists who have continually shrieked "It's NEVER coming back."

The start menu isn't coming back, a button that brings up the start screen like now.

GP007 said,
The start menu isn't coming back, a button that brings up the start screen like now.

That won't fix the problem, I doubt this is what Microsoft are doing, although the Windows development team may do it in the interim, until they get their butts kicked AGAIN by management.

It will alleviate the intensity of the problem, and the hot corner irritation for many. It's a good compromise that costs nothing. Combines with search improvements, Stardock's cash flow from Start8 will take a severe hit when 8.1 is released if they follow through.

You guys really need to grow up! Choice goes both ways, just because YOU hate Win8 doesn't mean anyone with an opinion opposite to yours is automatically wrong. You guys are all the same, your happy when things go your way but up in arms soon as anything changes in a way you don't like.

Windows Nashville said,
LOL at the Win 8 apologists who have continually shrieked "It's NEVER coming back."

Getting a little excited over a cosmetic change to the current start button aren't you? Haters gone hate.

spoetnik said,
haters gonna hate ?
thanks for the insult.

Sensitive much? Didn't realise i'd mentioned you by name.
On medication by any chance? Oh wait...

i expect nothing less. classic reply lol
you change the subject and get personal lol
where is the pro windows 8 propaganda now ?

spoetnik said,
i expect nothing less. classic reply lol
you change the subject and get personal lol
where is the pro windows 8 propaganda now ?

Actually, that comment above, that i put, that you're so touchy about, is a direct quote from you on another thread... BURN.

good thing they're putting back....I don't say that for me, just for those who can't get a handle on the start screen, but this is nice.

the desire to want something specific does not imply someone is struggling to learn how to use the metro ui. implying that is silly.

That argument is over with, the start screen is both great for tablets and regular pcs and is necessary for moving forward! However, Microsoft needed to take baby steps in the UI change in Windows 8! I definitely would love a boot to desktop and a start button would be nice as well. The start screen is a much more sophisticated and organized program launcher than the old start menu though!

Boot to Desktop and the Start button could be options, like the start screen color accent (leave plain or would you like swirls with that?). Or the Control Panel... show by Category or by Icons?

Then at least those that like it as it is can continue to benefit...

lctb51 said
However, Microsoft needed to take baby steps in the UI change in Windows 8!
Hmm, I don't know. They did a lot of change in Windows 95, but the majority still fell in love with it.

Why did they fall in love with it? Because Microsoft made it easy for users to understand how to use Windows 95. Once you learn how to use something, there's no problem. It's getting past that hurdle that's the problem. Microsoft didn't really help the users understand Windows 8. They more or less left them in the dark. That's why there's so much hate. If they would've made it easy for people to adapt to Windows 8 by helping them make the switch, then there'd be more people willing to install it.

dtourond said,
Hmm, I don't know. They did a lot of change in Windows 95, but the majority still fell in love with it.

Why did they fall in love with it? Because Microsoft made it easy for users to understand how to use Windows 95. Once you learn how to use something, there's no problem. It's getting past that hurdle that's the problem. Microsoft didn't really help the users understand Windows 8. They more or less left them in the dark. That's why there's so much hate. If they would've made it easy for people to adapt to Windows 8 by helping them make the switch, then there'd be more people willing to install it.


Uhm, people where loudly shouting the CLI was the only way to use a computer and a GUI desktop was pointless.
People hated this start menu and wanted the 3.11 style 'taskbar' back.
The major difference between then and now, is this screaming minority wasnt heard back then, the average joe didnt really care what some dude on the internet was screaming about, if he knew what an internet even was.
Now the userbase is much, much larger. And the userbase is very very tightly connected through social media and large communities like Neowin.

dtourond said,
Hmm, I don't know. They did a lot of change in Windows 95, but the majority still fell in love with it.

Why did they fall in love with it? Because Microsoft made it easy for users to understand how to use Windows 95. Once you learn how to use something, there's no problem. It's getting past that hurdle that's the problem. Microsoft didn't really help the users understand Windows 8. They more or less left them in the dark. That's why there's so much hate. If they would've made it easy for people to adapt to Windows 8 by helping them make the switch, then there'd be more people willing to install it.

hillarious lol
so i guess they fell in love with it because of the training manuals style and syntax etc and not the actual functionality of the product LOLOLOL
I REALLY get a kick out of people trying to twist history into a making windows 8 look good.

spoetnik said
hillarious lol
so i guess they fell in love with it because of the training manuals style and syntax etc and not the actual functionality of the product LOLOLOL
You missed the point entirely, but that's not surprising..

spoetnik said
I REALLY get a kick out of people trying to twist history into a making windows 8 look good.
Well it actually is, but if you prefer to stay in a bubble and remain oblivious to the facts, then that's your problem

I didn't miss the point i can see what your doing.
And i can provide real tangible proof if needed to back up every word that comes out of mouth.
Call me on it i dare you
History seems to support any pro windows 8 argument funny how that works LOL
Problem is your not gonna bs peopel that have been around probably longer than many of the windows 8 cheerleaders have even been alive. Many of you kids flap your gums like your talking some other kid and don't even consider for a moment you may be dealing with someone that has experience and credentials that dwarf yours. Like am i suppose to listen to some kids opinions on Windows XP or should i use my own i developed back then at the time ?
Bubble ?
If anyone is in a bubble it is Microsoft.. they flip flop on what is now and new and what they wanna push feature and functionality wise and often flip flop on things and if you don't know that you haven't been around PC's too long

spoetnik said
And i can provide real tangible proof if needed to back up every word that comes out of mouth. Call me on it i dare you
I like it when people can actually present proof; so yes, present it if you can.

spoetnik said
Problem is your not gonna bs peopel that have been around probably longer than many of the windows 8 cheerleaders have even been alive.
Age does not determine one's intelligence and experience. Remember, we can always use older versions of Windows using virtual machine software.

PUC_Snakeman said,
I'm glad Microsoft is listening finally.

Its Microsoft management who are either listening, or have had their butts kicked by angry customers (or NO customers, as the sales show).

The Windows development team are still pushing back, and delaying the work, and putting up roadblocks.

I foresee more heads on the chopping block, before sanity returns.

They're still suffering from Sinofsky syndrome. They think he might come back.

dvb2000 said,

Its Microsoft management who are either listening, or have had their butts kicked by angry customers (or NO customers, as the sales show).

The Windows development team are still pushing back, and delaying the work, and putting up roadblocks.

I foresee more heads on the chopping block, before sanity returns.

PUC_Snakeman said,
We don't need a start menu, and we don't need a start button. What we need is options. I'm glad Microsoft is listening finally.

I would love to use the start screen if I had a touchscreen, 32" ones at that LOL. I also don't want to remember hotkeys for my OS... Adobe, Avid,and Vegas products are enough for me. Switching applications, closing applications, and the whole AppStore make it feel like pushed tablet to me. Give people the option to set up the right configuration for their device. People cannot embrace innovation by pushing 15 years of history out the window. We have a workflows, we have processes that work... social pressuring to use this tablet interface is a joke. Some of you sound more like human resources employees rather than technical professionals.

Regrettably, Microsoft did NOT give users options with Windows-8. It was "their way, i.e, Metro UI, no Start button, no Start Menu, or the highway."

TsarNikky said,
Regrettably, Microsoft did NOT give users options with Windows-8. It was "their way, i.e, Metro UI, no Start button, no Start Menu, or the highway."

Their way, or a third-party alternative highway.

dvb2000 said,

Its Microsoft management who are either listening, or have had their butts kicked by angry customers (or NO customers, as the sales show).

The Windows development team are still pushing back, and delaying the work, and putting up roadblocks.

I foresee more heads on the chopping block, before sanity returns.


dvb2000 said,

Its Microsoft management who are either listening, or have had their butts kicked by angry customers (or NO customers, as the sales show).

The Windows development team are still pushing back, and delaying the work, and putting up roadblocks.

I foresee more heads on the chopping block, before sanity returns.


I actually think it was a mistake from management team. In which company nerds dictates what directions company should move or put roadblocks? If this is true that would be the end for Microsoft, traitor nerds rule company to bring it down to ashes.

apparently this is how things were in the Windows Division under Sinofsky, hence he is gone and Windows 8 RTM is unsatisfactory to many. Based on the leaks of changes so far, Start Button, More Snaps, Unified and Streamlined Search, this can be fixed.

S3P€hR said,

I actually think it was a mistake from management team. In which company nerds dictates what directions company should move or put roadblocks? If this is true that would be the end for Microsoft, traitor nerds rule company to bring it down to ashes.

LeGourmand said,
I'm glad that they are putting it back, if they even do. But this sure won't help the metro interface to get better.

It's not really about metro but more for business desktop users I bet. I think the new stuff we've seen in the leaked blue builds are a step in the right direction.

LeGourmand said,
But this sure won't help the metro interface to get better.

yep, most people will remain with the desktop/start button, and Metro developers will disappear, as there will be no market for them.

GP007 said,

It's not really about metro but more for business desktop users I bet. I think the new stuff we've seen in the leaked blue builds are a step in the right direction.


For that i understand, but they should make that exclusive for the professional version or something.

LeGourmand said,

For that i understand, but they should make that exclusive for the professional version or something.

I wouldn't be surprised if these options are only in the pro and enterprise versions and not in the base one.

LeGourmand said,
I'm glad that they are putting it back, if they even do. But this sure won't help the metro interface to get better.

I don't actually mind the metro interface, but at the same time I don't think the interface is the biggest issue. Sure it has some problems like showing empty category when searching and the fact it takes up the full screen, and it's a pain when using on multiple monitors and not being able to assign large icons for desktop applications etc, but I think the biggest issue Microsoft have is the sheer lack of support for their own core apps (Mail, message, people etc).
They should have been shining examples that make people want to use metro, actually provide something that's more useful and faster then a webpage, or at least on par with what desktop application it'd be replacing. Instead, they have something I don't even consider half-baked.
Microsoft had an opportunity to set the world on fire with a new Metro interface, a new way of embracing computers. Instead, they took that and tried to force upon its users a xbox live eco system, an apps eco system, and a boat load of accounts for their mobile division via online signings. All the while, basic things we've always had such as choice on the Desktop machines were removed.
The start menu is an example used all to often but Microsoft could have simply given us a power user option to turn metro start screen and its apps off. Instead, they insisted and went to great lengths to remove all start menu code so 3rd party couldn't bring it back. Not only that, but they didn't even finish converting the basic control panel into Metro UI settings so we're left with some deformed half-faced stepchild of Windows 7. On top of that, you can't even embrace metro and have a metro only system and remove the desktop.

Microsoft needed to get in on the mobile market, and they've abused their position and abused Windows 8 to do it. It's a crying shame too, because Windows 8 is indeed a very good OS, much faster then Windows 7... I don't mind the start screen and would continue to use it rather then a start menu, but there are things that need to be fixed as well... and not only that but give us choice again! CHOICE that's all we want.

It's ok people say just use a 3rd party replacement menu, but why should we when there was a perfectly good one that people were using before Microsoft forced it away from us.

I can't even use my own picture as the background for the start screen. I think that about sums it up.

sagum said,

....

I do agree with choice and all. But part of the reason why Windows 8 runs smoother, lighter and faster then Windows 7, is because of the removal of quite a bit of bloat. Including junk thats been in there since the beginning.
But besides that, the only major difference on the desktop side is that the start 'menu' is now merged with the desktop into a fullscreen AIO center thingy. It's actually quite decent for a v1 environment imo.
Compare it with a win95 desktop+taskbar/startmenu vs a Win7.
Microsoft did abuse its position to push their main line OS into a touch based environment, but so would all of us. And with MS, i dont think money is their only drive to push everything into a universal environment.
This one OS and interface to rule all has been a Microsoft vision from the 80s, they waited 2 decades and finally saw an oppertunity.

To be honest I rarely even used the start button in Win7, you know we have this little button on our keyboards for that....I honestly don't understand the uproar over it's absence. The start MENU I can sort of understand but even so Windows has hardly been crippled by it's removal and I can't say my productively has been hampered by the start screen like all the haters suggest it would.

All that said it is rather jarring to use at first and after using the start menu for so many years it does feel like it goes against the grain, but if your willing to work with it and take your time to learn it you'll be just as efficient as you were previously (if not more so). I think the main problem is people just can't get past the initial discomfort it brings when you first start using it. I mean it took me months to finally get to grips with it (went back to 7 several times and for a while was very vocally opposed to 8) but you adapt.

The start screen is far from perfect and it still needs alot of work but is it the way forward and version 1 things tend to be crappy to begin with anyway (just look at Vista, everyone hated that but look what it became and how much people loved it ) Well that is my 2 cents, take with a grain of salt.

Xerxes said
To be honest I rarely even used the start button in Win7, you know we have this little button on our keyboards for that....I honestly don't understand the uproar over it's absence. The start MENU I can sort of understand but even so Windows has hardly been crippled by it's removal and I can't say my productively has been hampered by the start screen like all the haters suggest it would.

All that said it is rather jarring to use at first and after using the start menu for so many years it does feel like it goes against the grain, but if your willing to work with it and take your time to learn it you'll be just as efficient as you were previously (if not more so). I think the main problem is people just can't get past the initial discomfort it brings when you first start using it. I mean it took me months to finally get to grips with it (went back to 7 several times and for a while was very vocally opposed to 8) but you adapt.

The start screen is far from perfect and it still needs alot of work but is it the way forward and version 1 things tend to be crappy to begin with anyway (just look at Vista, everyone hated that but look what it became and how much people loved it ) Well that is my 2 cents, take with a grain of salt.

Very well said.

Especially the part about how the Start Screen is "far from perfect and it still needs alot of work but is it the way forward and version 1 things tend to be crappy to begin with anyway". That is so true. The first version of any product is always far from perfect, but with time, it gets better.

Quite right. I am amazed how many people don't know what the Windows Key does. Why create a button when you have a keyboard that is easily within reach. Of course many users don't know you can hit enter when inputting information into a search box (for example) rather than moving the mouse and clicking search.
PC's should come with a little movie that runs at first start to instruct people on these simple things so we can move forward and not be saddled with a silly graphical button that isn't needed.
Which this was in fact something that had often been mentioned MS should have done a better job with in Windows 8.

Xerxes said,
..you know we have this little button on our keyboards for that....I honestly don't understand the uproar over it's absence. ..

You don't understand because your not trying to or playing dumb. The answer to this question has been stated infinitly yet people like you keep saying that. Giving you the answer is pointless but i will try anyway.. The answer is simple we use the machine in different ways and in doing this we put different amounts of value into different aspects of the operating system and the old start menu was a popular part of windows that was outright deleted with no transition.
I myself had little use for it and don't rely on it but i always liked having it there mainly for the purpose of having a default location for installers to dump their shortcuts.
You want to talk about not understanding ?
I don't see how any of what i said is not common sense.
And the Keyboard shortcuts are in no way a substitute for a start menu, implying that is just ridiculous.

dtourond said,
Very well said.

Especially the part about how the Start Screen is "far from perfect and it still needs alot of work,.

oh and thanks for providing the reason the start menu should not have been removed.. i couldn't have said it better myself.

just to be clear the START MENU IS NOT BACK, its just a button to take you to start screen.
we need the real start menu. They still dont get it.

Ashleighhank said,
just to be clear the START MENU IS NOT BACK, its just a button to take you to start screen.
we need the real start menu. They still dont get it.

that was just Paul Thurrott's opinion, Mary Foley - who originally leaked the detail said the start button (and all that entails) is back.

Seems Paul Thurrott is just anti the desktop and start button, so is still hoping it won't be back.

Ashleighhank said,
just to be clear the START MENU IS NOT BACK, its just a button to take you to start screen.
we need the real start menu. They still dont get it.

No.. YOU need the real start menu. Not We.

Josh the Nerd said,
Foley actually says she thinks the Start button is far more likely to lead to the Start screen than the old menu.

"I also don't know if this Start Button will just be something that brings users directly to the Metro Start Screen. But I'd be that's far more likely than something that would bring them back to the old Start Menu."

http://www.zdnet.com/reading-b...he-start-button-7000014239/

That's exactly what it'll do, they're doing it how it was pre-consumer preview builds when they still had the button in place.

Ashleighhank said,
...we need the real start menu. They still dont get it.

YOU need it buddy, not we. Lots of us actually like our Start screen. I love my live updates all on one screen and fast access to all my apps. Everything else is the same as the Start menu, just full screen... nothing wrong with that. Most of the time you don't even have to look at it... Start > type > enter... done.

BobSlob said,

No.. YOU need the real start menu. Not We.


oh yeah its just me who needed the start menu and just because of me there was an internal fight at Microsoft. /s

when i said we it means people who needed the start menu and dont include you.
I know you are trying to be smarty pants but you fail

j2006 said,

YOU need it buddy, not we. Lots of us actually like our Start screen. I love my live updates all on one screen and fast access to all my apps. Everything else is the same as the Start menu, just full screen... nothing wrong with that. Most of the time you don't even have to look at it... Start > type > enter... done.

oh yeah its just me who needed the start menu and just because of me there was an internal fight at Microsoft. /s
when i said we it means people who needed the start menu and dont include you.
I know you are trying to be smarty pants but you fail

j2006 said,

YOU need it buddy, not we. Lots of us actually like our Start screen. I love my live updates all on one screen and fast access to all my apps. Everything else is the same as the Start menu, just full screen... nothing wrong with that. Most of the time you don't even have to look at it... Start > type > enter... done.

LOL @ using your PC as a tablet. I know, the 40,000 shortcut hotkeys are just as effective.

Josh the Nerd said,
Foley actually says she thinks the Start button is far more likely to lead to the Start screen than the old menu.

If that turns out to be true, then we haven't really achieved anything. No one is going to buy Windows 8.1 if that's all it does. Corporates and users will still reject it.

Patrick Danielson said,

LOL @ using your PC as a tablet. I know, the 40,000 shortcut hotkeys are just as effective.


What does liking/using the start screen have to do with a tablet?

Patrick Danielson said,

LOL @ using your PC as a tablet. I know, the 40,000 shortcut hotkeys are just as effective.


Press Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A to continue?

dvb2000 said,

If that turns out to be true, then we haven't really achieved anything. No one is going to buy Windows 8.1 if that's all it does. Corporates and users will still reject it.

why reject it? it will have all of Windows 7 + all the performance and fixes of 8, this will be wonderful news

You are right, Microsoft still doesn't get it. Windows-7 is going to be around for a very long time; until such time as a newer version includes all the functionality of Windows-7.

Ashleighhank said,
just to be clear the START MENU IS NOT BACK, its just a button to take you to start screen.
we need the real start menu. They still dont get it.

Seeing as the Start Screen is more functional than the old start menu, I think people that don't like change "don't get it"... I have no issue with them adding the button back. Honestly they should never have gotten rid of it. But people whining over the new Start Screen really need to get over it. Change happens.

dvb2000 said,

If that turns out to be true, then we haven't really achieved anything. No one is going to buy Windows 8.1 if that's all it does. Corporates and users will still reject it.


No one that is actually being serious is rejecting Windows 8 for the Start Screen change... More likely the other refinements that are necessary at this point.

Ashleighhank said,
just to be clear the START MENU IS NOT BACK, its just a button to take you to start screen.
we need the real start menu. They still dont get it.

We are talking about Windows 8.1. It may come back. Until it gets closer to release, we'll know for sure. Personally, I would like to enjoy Windows 8 new faster bootup times but I hate the Start Screen for Desktop. I will ONLY instal it if I have the ability to never see that Start Screen.

TsarNikky said,
You are right, Microsoft still doesn't get it. Windows-7 is going to be around for a very long time; until such time as a newer version includes all the functionality of Windows-7.

You mean like Windows 8 does? The things that actually matter from Win7 are still in Win8, just in some cases they've been made bigger and easier use.

Ashleighhank said,

oh yeah its just me who needed the start menu and just because of me there was an internal fight at Microsoft. /s
when i said we it means people who needed the start menu and dont include you.
I know you are trying to be smarty pants but you fail

The alleged fight was not over the Start menu, but the button. It was in the article.

M_Lyons10 said,

Seeing as the Start Screen is more functional than the old start menu,.

Except having a start menu take up the entire screen on a desktop is ridiculous.

Ashleighhank said,

oh yeah its just me who needed the start menu and just because of me there was an internal fight at Microsoft. /s

when i said we it means people who needed the start menu and dont include you.
I know you are trying to be smarty pants but you fail

Do you speak English? This "internal argument", take a large grain of salt with anything thurrott ever says, its only after someone else says something his "sources" magically appear... is not about the start menu, its the start button... I think we can safely say the start menu is dead and it is very unlikely that it will be resurrected because it was buried deep unlike the start button which actually has reg placeholders still there and survived up until consumer preview.

I'm all for options and totally support boot to desktop and start button but could not give a crap about the start menu- let it rest in peace with program manager.

JaykeBird said
this would still be perfect. I don't need the start menu honestly. I just want the button!
Same here. The button would make it more clear for users.

TRC said
Except having a start menu take up the entire screen on a desktop is ridiculous.
How is that ridiculous.. Having all of your apps, folders, and websites all on the screen for you at your disposal is somehow ridiculous.

dtourond said,
How is that ridiculous.. Having all of your apps, folders, and websites all on the screen for you at your disposal is somehow ridiculous.

Search renders the UI irrelevant, not taking up the whole screen for said search is more efficient than doing so, hence taking up the entire screen is ridiculous.

Start screen is an outdated concept on the desktop, you all just need to adapt, search is the future of computing.

Athernar said
Search renders the UI irrelevant
Ok..? How?

Athernar said
not taking up the whole screen for said search is more efficient than doing so, hence taking up the entire screen is ridiculous.
Maybe for you, having a menu for your search results is better, but in general, I would think that having your search results in full screen would be better.

Athernar said
Start screen is an outdated concept on the desktop
How?

dtourond said,
Ok..? How?

For the exact same reasons why search is better than the 9x flyout paradigm.

dtourond said,
Maybe for you, having a menu for your search results is better, but in general, I would think that having your search results in full screen would be better.

You would be mistaken. Search is a superior solution and you just need to adapt.

dtourond said,
How?

Search is the future of computing.

Athernar said
You would be mistaken. Search is a superior solution and you just need to adapt.
How is search superior.. Why would I (or any user) want to search for something every time

dtourond said,
How is search superior.. Why would I (or any user) want to search for something every time

Because once you adapt, it's faster than scanning through some outdated crufty UI. (Well to be honest, it's faster period)

Why are you so resistant to change?

Athernar said
Because once you adapt, it's faster than scanning through some outdated crufty UI.
That's not a proper explanation.

Example: If I want to search for something that I use often in my room, should I have to spend time searching for it, or should I just leave it in a place where I know I'll be able to find it all the time.

That same thing applies to the Start Screen. All you have to do is pin your commonly used apps/websites/folders and you're set to go. If there's something you need to search for, just go to the Start Screen and start typing.

Athernar said
Why are you so resistant to change?
I'm actually not resistant to change. I'm using Windows 8 which is already plenty enough change. I just don't have the same beliefs as you and I think you're wrong on every level.

dtourond said,
That's not a proper explanation.

Example: If I want to search for something that I use often in my room, should I have to spend time searching for it, or should I just leave it in a place where I know I'll be able to find it all the time.

That same thing applies to the Start Screen. All you have to do is pin your commonly used apps/websites/folders and you're set to go. If there's something you need to search for, just go to the Start Screen and start typing.

I'm actually not resistant to change. I'm using Windows 8 which is already plenty enough change. I just don't have the same beliefs as you and I think you're wrong on every level.

Your example is moronic and your reasoning flawed.

If you honestly think real-world searching is comparable to that in the context of computing, you are obviously not qualified to form an reasoned opinion on the matter.

Search is the superior paradigm, fact. Your unwillingness to adapt is your own problem.

Athernar said
Your example is moronic and your reasoning flawed.
It's actually pretty true, you just can't see that.

Athernar said
If you honestly think real-world searching is comparable to that in the context of computing, you are obviously not qualified to form an reasoned opinion on the matter.
I'm far more qualified than you.

In the real world, if I'm searching for something, I'll go looking around for it. In the computer, if I'm searching for something, I'll go looking around for it. Sound similar to you?

Athernar said
Search is the superior paradigm
Until you can actually prove that, you're wrong

Athernar said
Your unwillingness to adapt is your own problem.
Wrong again.

dvb2000 said,

If that turns out to be true, then we haven't really achieved anything. No one is going to buy Windows 8.1 if that's all it does. Corporates and users will still reject it.

Not our company, we are actively rolling out Windows 8 for new pc's and one request (yes people are asking us to load Windows 8 on their computers). Judging from the usage figures no one equals around 4% which considering the time frame, seems to indicate people are buying and using Windows 8.

Ashleighhank said,
just to be clear the START MENU IS NOT BACK, its just a button to take you to start screen.
we need the real start menu. They still dont get it.

NO, you need it, I don't! Besides why do you need it? What does your precious startmenu do that the startscreen doesn't? The only issue I have with the startscreen is that it splits search into three sections. This is going to be fixed in 8.1.

dtourond said,
It's actually pretty true, you just can't see that.

Actually it's not. Most people don't have hundreds (or more) storage locations in their room where they might have left the item they need. Rooms have drawers, shelves and cupboards. Computers have thousands of folders.

Ronnet said,

NO, you need it, I don't! Besides why do you need it? What does your precious startmenu do that the startscreen doesn't? The only issue I have with the startscreen is that it splits search into three sections. This is going to be fixed in 8.1.


I think the main problem is, every previous windows with the exception of 95, has had an option to use the 'looks and feels' of the previous version. Up untill Win7 there was the option to use classic.
Windows 8 the only option is the standard look or high contrast... thats it. If Microsoft can just put back this classic option, which enables a start menu and boot into desktop...It would at least stop all the complaining and this way Microsoft will show everyone they still value backwards compatibility.

dtourond said,
Example: If I want to search for something that I use often in my room, should I have to spend time searching for it, or should I just leave it in a place where I know I'll be able to find it all the time.

Flawed example.

If i want something from one of the many storage places in my house, isn't easier to send someone who knows where it is and get it for me lightning fast with out me having to get off my chair quicker than me standing up and searching through those places?

dtourond said,
It's actually pretty true, you just can't see that.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's an utterly idiotic comparison and you've been rebuked by other posters for it. So good job on embarrassing yourself.

dtourond said,
I'm far more qualified than you.

Obviously not if you think such a comparison is even remotely apt.

dtourond said,
In the real world, if I'm searching for something, I'll go looking around for it. In the computer, if I'm searching for something, I'll go looking around for it. Sound similar to you?

Take some friendly advice, quit before you make yourself look like an even bigger idiot than you already have.

dtourond said,
Until you can actually prove that, you're wrong

I don't need to prove anything. You've made yourself look so utterly stupid that I don't need to demonstrate any further.

TCLN Ryster said
Actually it's not. Most people don't have hundreds (or more) storage locations in their room where they might have left the item they need. Rooms have drawers, shelves and cupboards. Computers have thousands of folders.
You're missing the point though. Searching for something in a room is similar to searching for something in a computer. I keep some things in a common place where I know I'll always be able to find it. Same thing with a computer, I have everything pinned on the Start Screen so that way it's all there, ready to go.

Mikeffer said
Flawed example.

If i want something from one of the many storage places in my house, isn't easier to send someone who knows where it is and get it for me lightning fast with out me having to get off my chair quicker than me standing up and searching through those places?

You're missing the point though. Searching for something in a room is similar to searching for something in a computer. I keep some things in a common place where I know I'll always be able to find it. Same thing with a computer, I have everything pinned on the Start Screen so that way it's all there, ready to go, and easy to find.

Athernar said
So good job on embarrassing yourself.
I haven't, but okay.

Athernar said
Take some friendly advice, quit before you make yourself look like an even bigger idiot than you already have.
The same could be said for you.

Athernar said
I don't need to prove anything. You've made yourself look so utterly stupid that I don't need to demonstrate any further.
Well if you can't prove why you think you're right about search being the future, then that means you're wrong. If I'm trying to convince someone that something is wrong or right, I'll make sure I can back it up and prove my point.

dtourond said,
You're missing the point though. Searching for something in a room is similar to searching for something in a computer. I keep some things in a common place where I know I'll always be able to find it. Same thing with a computer, I have everything pinned on the Start Screen so that way it's all there, ready to go, and easy to find.

I get what you're saying, however, just like in your house (well maybe not you, but certainly me) you can't find everything in the place it is supposed to be at all times.

dtourond said,
I haven't, but okay.

You really have.

dtourond said,
The same could be said for you.

I'm not the one coming up with idiotic comparisons.

dtourond said,
Well if you can't prove why you think you're right about search being the future, then that means you're wrong. If I'm trying to convince someone that something is wrong or right, I'll make sure I can back it up and prove my point.

I don't need to prove anything until such time as you can come up with an intelligent response than isn't some inane comparison of two disparate actions.

"Search" is just the wording they used. It really makes no difference to use the term "Launch" or "Open," or even the original term, which I truly believe that the search field was intended to replace, the "RUN" feature.

Athernar said
You really have.
If you can prove how you think that, then great. If not, then don't bother trying to bring up something you can't back up

Athernar said
I don't need to prove anything until such time as you can come up with an intelligent response than isn't some inane comparison of two disparate actions.
Well if you're going to say such things, it's always good to backup your opinions or thoughts on something and try to prove to others why you feel that you're right about the topic (in this case, it's about search). I know for the majority of people, that's how it is. Maybe it's different for you though..

Mikeffer said
I get what you're saying, however, just like in your house (well maybe not you, but certainly me) you can't find everything in the place it is supposed to be at all times.
True. Sometimes (for whatever reason) you might move things around. But, you may also (at some point) move things around on your computer. The point I'm trying to get across is that, I personally believe that for a lot of people, having content in a place that you'll remember is easier and more relaxing than having to search for it all the time.

Athernar said,

..snipped..
Search is the superior paradigm

How is using the search function superior to going straight to something instead of having to look for it every time? If every time you wanted your car keys, you had to go spend x minutes searching for them, I'd imagine you'd get annoyed after while..vs pinning them somewhere and going straight to that spot each time.

Ashleighhank said,
just to be clear the START MENU IS NOT BACK, its just a button to take you to start screen.
we need the real start menu. They still dont get it.

I hope it would come back just like many people mentioned in the surveys. I have no idea what kind of dumb ass is in favor of not bringing start menu back for non-touch devices. If they would have used windows with mouse they knew it was a dumb idea in first place to remove it. The true multi task in windows is desktop mode and desktop windows is the best os. Modern Style windows is just a dumb idea for desktop computers.

Ashleighhank said,
just to be clear the START MENU IS NOT BACK, its just a button to take you to start screen.
we need the real start menu. They still dont get it.

I hope it would come back just like many people mentioned in the surveys. I have no idea what kind of dumb ass is in favor of not bringing start menu back for non-touch devices. If they would have used windows with mouse they knew it was a dumb idea in first place to remove it. The true multi task in windows is desktop mode and desktop windows is the best os. Modern Style windows is just a dumb idea for desktop computers.