E3 2013: Anti-DRM game developer CD Projekt on Xbox One's used disc features

Poland-based independent developer CD Projekt has made a name for itself in a couple of ways. First, the first two games in its Witcher series of fantasy RPGs have been huge successes, both in sales and in praise from critics. It has also launched GoG.com, which offers both current and classic PC games for cheap prices.

Both the Witcher games and the games available for GoG.com have been released for the PC with no DRM set-ups, and CD Project execs have stated in the past their stance against using DRM. Now the developer has come under attack from some of its fans because of its plans to release "The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt" on Microsoft's Xbox One console, which will have restrictions on how owners can give, sell or trade used game discs.

In an interview on Eurogamer, CD Projekt co-founder and Joint CEO Marcin Iwiński stated that the company "couldn't simply not release The Witcher 3 on Xbox One." The developer wants every gamer to have the chance to play their next RPG, which will also be released for the PC and PS4.

Iwiński added:

There are people who don't mind the DRM protection and will pick Xbox One as their platform of choice. We can't punish them. Again, we always stress the fact that we're against DRM, but in the market system it's the clients who make the final decision. As developers, we need to create best content we can and make it available for as many players as possible.

The debate over the used disc game features for the Xbox One will likely continue until the launch of the console itself sometime in November.

Source: Eurogamer | Image via CD Projekt

Neowin's E3 2013 coverage is sponsored by Alienware

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Xbox 360 already does this sales through digital distribution. Every week or occasionally, they offer game sales digitally because MS knew you can't sell it or traded it because it tied to the gamertag. However, the console that you purchase it from can be played from any gamertag.

Digital Media does not work well for the entire market, especially people with slower speeds or on bandwidth caps. If the average X1 or PS4 title is going to be around 20-30Gb that is going to take along time to download and install and on top of that eat up at 20-35% of people's monthly bandwidth just for one title.

Which is why Microsoft is letting you buy a disc with the game data on it. The discs are just there to save you the download time. Unlike previous generations, the disc is not the license; the license is stored with your Live account just like a downloadable game.

JonathanMarston said,
Which is why Microsoft is letting you buy a disc with the game data on it. The discs are just there to save you the download time. Unlike previous generations, the disc is not the license; the license is stored with your Live account just like a downloadable game.

Yep

This is pretty much the same thing as the original Xbox only having an ethernet cable. Kind of painful at first but more forward thinking with how the industry is going.

Internet access is very quickly turning out to be a must have must be reliable utility service like power or water.

They could have framed their vision alot better and people may have understood.

swanlee said,
They could have framed their vision alot better and people may have understood.

Easily MS' biggest mistake - had they managed that as well as to put out all the facts about the pro's and con's then it might not of been received so badly.
Whether any of this actually affects sales is another matter - the reality is the vast majority of buyers won't be aware of the DRM (or even that interested in it) despite assertions to the contrary. That's not necessarily a good thing though..

Yea I'm not sure how Average Joe is going to handle the DRM policy juggling when we can't even get a clear answer now. Anything more than a sentace or two will be lost on the average consumer and cause alot of backlash.

It is probably going to be painful right now for MS but it will lay the ground works for 100% digital distribution and give them a leg up much like Live gave them a leg up on the original Xbox.

The DRM issue, it's a hassle for consumers and developers want to insure they get paid for there work. The issue is money.
Today we buy games finish them then trade them in, then apply the trade in value to a new game. We may by a New game or a used game at a discount.

If we buy a new game the developer makes money, if we buy a used game then the retailer makes money and the developer does not.

In this model the reseller can make profit off the same game multiple times, and the developer sees nothing.
Needless to say the developers are not happy about that.

So you work out a DRM deal with the platform and now the developers will now have more NEW sales of games because you can no longer trade in and buy used games. Resellers will have to be happy with resale profit on NEW games.
I understand, it's business. No profit, no games, no consoles, and no gaming. Back to the PCs. The consoles make gaming so easy, but the market might disappear if the publishers get too greedy.
So now we are going to be locked into a digital store for games. No more used or trade ins. So the developers will make more profit on more NEW sales since USED games can no longer be purchased.

Now what aggravates me is I keep reading how all the game publishing companies want to drive the game prices up to $70 - $80, even in the digital stores! If this is bogus then fine. But what should happen is the price of games from the digital store should come down in cost. No media to burn, no packaging, no shipping, no warehousing should all be taken away from the price of the product. I expect the cost to go down.

I'm fine with Digital Downloaded games, makes it much easier than media. But the price of the games MUST come down. Drastically!

If you want my by in to this Digital Store then this is what I want:
1. I want to download NEW games at costs of $30 to $40.
2. I want arcade and independent games for less.
3. I want downloadable demos, so if I buy a NEW game and it sucks, and I can't even trade it.
4. I want to buy a game and have it "bind" to my console so all live profiles can play it. Don't "bind" a game to an individual profile.
5. I want receipts for my purchases so if my profile gets wiped I can prove I purchased products.

This should run off the Windows 8 Store. Let developers use the same publishing rules as the Windows 8 Store. So indie developers can write games for Xbox one.

On another note
I'd also like to know how the cable TV will work with my local cable provider?
Does the Xbox One replace my digital cable box? Because I just don't see the cable companies letting that happen!

Microsoft clearly has a lot of logistical things to work out before November if they want this to be adopted.

Could be the end of consoles again!

Great ideas. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I have seen, #4 is definitely not an issue. From what it seems, anyone can log into their own Xbox account on your console and can still play the game. But the game is also tied to your Xbox ID so you can always access it on other Xbox consoles.

Unfortunately with the Live TV thing, it requires connecting a HDMI-input compatible TV receiver. It's not likely you can get free terrestrial TV on it .

I assume those criticising CD Projekt for putting their game on Xbox One also criticised them for putting their games on Steam, right?!

Allowing their games on a DRM platform does not detract from the fact they support non-DRM platforms.

Xbone DRM infrastructure is that of an all digital gaming device, take away game discs and the restrictions make alot more sense. Then realize the game disc option is only to put the digital content on the Xbone the disc has no sue after it has been copied to the Xbone.

It is a hybrid approach but essentially Xbone is already an all digital console. They really could have explained things alot better and presented the Xbone as all digital with the "OPTION" to still buy games at retailers.

They really should have trumped up the all digital aspects, convenience, instant day one game releases, no more driving to the store, or paying for shipping or waiting on the game to arrive etc. At the end of explaining the Xbone as an all digital gaming console say as an option if you REALLY want to buy a disc in a store we give that option as well.

Why are we even discussing discs and DRM? Once console owners experience the ease of use that Steam users have enjoyed for years they'll all stop buying discs anyway...

Sony is pushing for game downloads on the PS4, just like Microsoft on XB1 (see their "Connected" video). Game downloads won't allow any kind of resale, trading, or lending on either platform. The only difference between the PS4 and XB1 with game downloads is you'll actually be able to share your purchased downloaded games (through your shared library) on XB1, where on PS4, you won't.

Strange that everyone was excited about the Steam Box, but everyone cries foul when they found out that the Xbox One will use the exact same model that the Steam Box will (if it ever actually happens, that is).

Edited by JonathanMarston, Jun 13 2013, 3:36pm :

my thoughts exactly. Xbox One is no different than Steam as a platform just on consoles now. People act like Steam is the greatest thing ever, but how easily they forget how much people hated it when it first came out with Half-Life 2.

Steam didn't instantly become this super great service but over time and as the library grew and mainly because of Steam Sales..mmmmm....Steam is great.

If the ability for a friend to play a game from my library at the same time I'm playing the game is true than that would be HUGE. Even if we can't play at the same time if I can still leech lol off my richer friends who like to buy every new game that comes out then i'll still come out on top.

They're nothing alike. Steam lets you go offline for a month, and often sells games for 50% off. Show me a $30 AAA title on the xbox marketplace, and let me go offline for a 2 week vacation without worrying about turning my console into a brick.

Then I need the reassurance that in 10 years from now, when the xbox two comes out, that they won't make all of the xbox one games I already paid for, stuck behind a paywall, or if Microsoft goes out of business in 50 years, that my console won't become a brick.

Once all of that has happened, we can compare the xbone to steam, and start a dialog.

We don't know what sales Microsoft my have on the Xbox One marketplace. They already do have sales on downloadable games on the 360, and even have free games (Fable 3 is the current free game, I believe Halo 3 is next). It's not to the extent of Steam though (it's usually just a handful of games at a time rather than half the catalog like on Steam), but I would be surprised if they don't expand on the specials once the One comes out and even offer things like "free weekends" like Steam.

What assurance do you have that Steam won't be shut down? What assurance is there that if Valve goes under you'll still be able to play all your Steam games?

The only real argument you have is the daily online checks. That is a pain, plain and simple. There is a reason for it (shared library), but I'm not sure that the advantages make up for the disadvantages on this one. This is actually the only reason I'm still not decided on whether I'll go Xbox this generation or not...

Again you seem to forget Steam was not like that at first. I'm sure after some time if not sooner than Microsoft wants they'll relax or change the online/offline time frame.

As far as sales are concerned I recently picked up Ghost Recon Future Solider for $15 which was a 50% discount from what it normally sells at.

As I said people have short term memories and the two platforms really are similar. Xbox One is just going to go through the growing pains that Steam had in it's first year.

As far as your reassurances for 10 years from now, we don't even have that from Steam now so how could you expect that from somebody else. That was always my initial hesistation about buying anything from Steam. What if all the servers shut down and I can't authenticate my games, what then? If it happened two years from now to Steam I would be upset but considering the low price I paid for most of my library I couldn't get too upset. Somehow I highly doubt that 50 years from now, you're main concern if any will be that your Xbox One is a now a brick.

greenwizard88 said,
They're nothing alike. Steam lets you go offline for a month, and often sells games for 50% off. Show me a $30 AAA title on the xbox marketplace, and let me go offline for a 2 week vacation without worrying about turning my console into a brick.

Then I need the reassurance that in 10 years from now, when the xbox two comes out, that they won't make all of the xbox one games I already paid for, stuck behind a paywall, or if Microsoft goes out of business in 50 years, that my console won't become a brick.

Once all of that has happened, we can compare the xbone to steam, and start a dialog.

I'm with Greenwizard (and many of my friends are too). For the most part my Steam collection is games bought for $5, $10, $15 during their sales. Pretty sure my gaming friends do the same thing as we usually pick up the same games at the same time. Very few times are their mass "I already have that game" type of discussions.

As far as AAA games do, especially at launch time, we order physical discs for games that are not MMO-type online only type of games.

So as an example we all have Skyrim and Battlefield 3 on physical disc, yet those of us who toy around occasionally on Defiance bought it through Steam. 10 year from now, installing Battlefield may or may not work, and online won't work, but the campaign will. Skyrim will of course work. Defiance on the other hand will not so why bother with the discs.

greenwizard88 said,
They're nothing alike. Steam lets you go offline for a month, and often sells games for 50% off. Show me a $30 AAA title on the xbox marketplace, and let me go offline for a 2 week vacation without worrying about turning my console into a brick.

Then I need the reassurance that in 10 years from now, when the xbox two comes out, that they won't make all of the xbox one games I already paid for, stuck behind a paywall, or if Microsoft goes out of business in 50 years, that my console won't become a brick.

Once all of that has happened, we can compare the xbone to steam, and start a dialog.

Actually, I think you can ONLY have the XB1 vs Steam argument when Steam becomes the ONLY way to buy games on the PC! Until then, I don't want to hear it! Dont like Steam? Use a different method to get your games! Don't like the way Xbox handles distribution? Too bad, you don't have another option!

macrosslover said,
Again you seem to forget Steam was not like that at first. I'm sure after some time if not sooner than Microsoft wants they'll relax or change the online/offline time frame.

That's the problem though; many of us thought they would be willing to compromise, we've had discussions on the matter as well, but the official response from Microsoft (at least for now) is "Get a 360 then".

So... until Microsoft change that mentality, until they decide, "Hey, maybe we should find some middle ground," many of us won't be worrying too much about getting an Xbox One, especially considering they're starting price is a $100 more. Microsoft would really need to get us sold on the console to pull it off at that price. Sony barely managed with the PS3's launch price, but that was only because of it being capable as a Bluray player.

@greenwizard88,
the thing is that people need to buy digital copies before publishers will offer them on sale, so that will come with time, just like cheaper games in digital editions (probably). 30 day offline and no sharing vs 24hour(which they could easily change to ex. 72hours on short notice if they feel the need) WITH sharing.. That's a not even a choice, is it?

As far as I can tell Microsoft has implemented an opt-in DRM infrastructure and Sony leaves the whole implementation up to the game developer. Seems Sony is hiding behind a possible fact that they lack the skills to implement a water tight DRM system and marketing turning it into a DRM victory ;-) It's still up to the game developers to choose what's best matching to their profit model and customers... only with Sony it might take a bit longer to implement

Sony will hit a wall when everything goes all digital, no doubt about it. And that future is coming sooner than people think with every other retail chain going bankrupt.

MS just needs more developers like Cliff Bleszinski today that speak their minds about the current businees model ruining the entire AAA industry.

The problem is Microsoft is enforcing the tight DRM by default unless developer opts-in to allow trading the game for 1 time. Microsoft should only put the infrastructure in place without enforcing it and let the developer decide if they want to implement it in to protect their own games. They're only making themselves the bad guy here.

The only thing I see MS doing is changing the industry into a digital future where we all win, developers, publishers and consumers and they are avoiding the confusion your proposition would generate among consumers.

Am I right? Only time will tell. But the closing of over 140 developers during the last generation and major gaming retailers closing at a moment's notice calls for action. Sony are burying their heads in the sand in fear of the consumer backlash MS has received and riding that PR, but this is all inevitable.

@Jason Mok, do you have a source? "In our role as a game publisher, Microsoft Studios will enable you to give your games to friends or trade in your Xbox One games at participating retailers. Third party publishers ** may opt in or out ** of supporting game resale and may set up business terms or transfer fees with retailers."

Where does it say that it's locked by default and they have to opt out? It says opt in or out, and as MS has said in interviews etc. they made used-game lock possible, but support used game sales. Unless you can prove something else, I'll take it as "publishers can opt in" = NO used-game lock by default.

Thief000 said,
Sony will hit a wall when everything goes all digital, no doubt about it. ...

How and why? All PS4 games day one games will also be available in store as disc purchases, OR as digital downloads.

@Graimer,
http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/license

Sorry, to be clear, I'm talking about selling unofficially through ebay or craigslist.

"In addition, third party publishers can enable you to give games to friends. "

By that wording, it's assumed that it's disabled in the first place until they clarified that it's not by default. Also, they need to clarify if the game can be given to another person outside of the 30 day period. So if I'm selling my old games through ebay instead of going through proper channels like GameStop, the game can only be sold once unofficially if the developer allows it.

Condere said,

How and why? All PS4 games day one games will also be available in store as disc purchases, OR as digital downloads.

The same is true for the Xbox One but the part people overlook are the added sharing options you get with XB1 regardless of if the game is install from a disc or from the internet. While we still need some more details about it the fact that you can have up to 10 friends/family share your library from their own Xbox Ones, anywhere they live without you having to send out a disc is the key here. Also other things like allowing anyone who uses your own system to play any games you have on it with their own accounts.

Jason Mok said,
Whoops, didn't read that properly. The game can only be given ONE time. Period.

Yeah, once so the guy you give it to can't resell it or regift it again. Honestly though, I somehow expect someone to make a business out of charing a small fee to deauthorize your game disc (if you have one) so you can then turn around and sell it to the next guy like gamestop will do. If possible I think it'd be a nice new business model, hell, maybe Gamestop will do it for you for like, $2-$5 bucks? It'd have to be something cheap really, to cover the costs of having retail access to MS's licensing system.

GP007 said,

The same is true for the Xbox One but the part people overlook are the added sharing options you get with XB1 regardless of if the game is install from a disc or from the internet. While we still need some more details about it the fact that you can have up to 10 friends/family share your library from their own Xbox Ones, anywhere they live without you having to send out a disc is the key here. Also other things like allowing anyone who uses your own system to play any games you have on it with their own accounts.

This. I think MS did a lot more forward thinking.

Thief000 said,
Sony will hit a wall when everything goes all digital, no doubt about it. And that future is coming sooner than people think with every other retail chain going bankrupt.

MS just needs more developers like Cliff Bleszinski today that speak their minds about the current businees model ruining the entire AAA industry.

Why do you say that? EVERY SINGLE GAME for the Vita can be downloaded, right now, day and date release with the physical copies. Same with the PS4. You will have the OPTION to buy a digital copy, tie it to your PSN account, and have it run completely off the HDD. OR you can pick up a disc at the store, play it, loan it, and resell it. They are not behind, but they are not forcing the users into a DRM scheme they don't want either, it's YOUR CHOICE.

I agree with Cliffy. See the thing is that the video game market is different than any other market on the planet. Because it's graphics based, they can expire over time and things in the video game industry are changing. You might not know this now, but it will be obvious in the future with dynamic games that get feedback from players either by controller play or by Kinect interaction and that feeds back into the game play.

We have seen a lot of publishers/developers go out of business because they didn't get the money out of the title and that is even for good games. This would give them more money that they deserve. The used game market is a lot of money they are missing out on and to capture that money instead of GameStop getting it, would make a lot of sense to me.

I could understand people being upset if the DRM changed their experience with the game, but it's not like the 1990's in which we had to find a code in a book in a PC game back then. You don't have to do this. You stick in the disk, while it installs you can play it and then it installs to the hard drive and you pull the disk out and just play it on the hard drive now.

The hard drive actually makes the experience better now, because things load a lot faster and you can have much better performance with a game. Scratches on a disk will be very rare, because you never use the disk. Then there is the fact that you can play that game instantly without waiting and you can switch to it or others by just using your voice and it's instantly on.

When I am done with my game, I can uninstall it and go to GameStop and sell it back and use that money to buy more games. Just like I could before. I could also give away my game to someone or even sell it to them and let them know that their only option is to sell it to GameStop.

John Nemesh said,
Why do you say that? EVERY SINGLE GAME for the Vita can be downloaded, right now, day and date release with the physical copies. Same with the PS4.

And how do you share/resell those digital games on PS4?

Afaik, both Twitcher and Twitcher 2 had release date check until release date had passed, when a momentary update removed it.

So this isn't very clear; are they going to release The Witcher 3 on Xbox One or not?

EDIT: This double negative threw me way off at first: "couldn't simply not release The Witcher 3 on Xbox One."

I see that they are still releasing on the platform.

It's all a moot point when we go 100% digital, which is right around the corner and the Xbone is pretty much all digital with a disc delivery option. I'm going all digital next gen, if the Xbone doesn't work out I'll get a PS4, I liked the Exclusives shown on the Xbone at E3 better and i realize all digital is how things are going to be so I'll start now. I like the idea of day and date downloads of games I want to play instead of ordering online or driving to the store. Used game were better in idea then in practice, you'd never get that much for your used games even selling on ebay. I'll trade these physical things for an all digital world, every other piece of media I have transitioned to digital and the convenience of storage has outweighed owning a plastic object

Sony has stated all PS4 games will be available for download as well. So you can go 100% digital with the PS4 too. Sony isn't sacrificing digital distribution in favor of physical. It's doing both and allowing you to choose for yourself which option works best for you. Have a fat pipe, go all digital (and you'll probably be able to play even all-digital single player games even if you're offline over 24 hours).

Asmodai said,
Sony has stated all PS4 games will be available for download as well. So you can go 100% digital with the PS4 too. Sony isn't sacrificing digital distribution in favor of physical. It's doing both and allowing you to choose for yourself which option works best for you. Have a fat pipe, go all digital (and you'll probably be able to play even all-digital single player games even if you're offline over 24 hours).

Yes, you probably can, but can you share those digital games and digitally lend them out to friends/family? People keep going on about the 24hr check-in and I agree that there should be a pure offline mode but with the 24hr check you also get the added sharing abilities and the roaming abilities of your library and account.

Without it those digital copies are tied just to you and the one console you download them to, unless I missed something and you can download them on as many PS4s you have, which maybe you can, but in the end you'll still have to login with the account you bought them with.

There's a trade-off to be made when something new comes, the ability to share means you'll have to allow for some periodical security check.

GP007 said,
Yes, you probably can, but can you share those digital games and digitally lend them out to friends/family? Without it those digital copies are tied just to you and the one console you download them to, unless I missed something and you can download them on as many PS4s you have, which maybe you can, but in the end you'll still have to login with the account you bought them with.

There's a trade-off to be made when something new comes, the ability to share means you'll have to allow for some periodical security check.


Of course it's a trade off, but what I personally feel and based off of the chatter on the internet giving up used games, game rentals, and true offline play to be able to lend digital games is a bad trade.

This console generation is Blu-Ray driven which hold up to 50GB. If the XBox One HAS to have the game fully installed on the Hard Disk to play how many games do you really think people are going to share? You're going to spontaneously install a say 30GB AAA title on your friends hard drive on a regular basis? How long is that going to take you only for it to disable itself in 24 hours. I know I wouldn't want people installing tens of GB sized games on my non-user upgradable 500GB hard drive that are going to blow up in a day. You can't even play the games with them, only one of you can be running the game at a time.

My issue though is that may people seem to imply that Sony doesn't have digital distribution and instead requires the use of the discs. This is not true as every disc game will have a digital version so you can go all digital. As to a comparison between Sony's and MSs digital distribution details I don't think we know enough to compare but I certainly welcome that comparison, it's not what this op here was doing though. The op implied you couldn't go all digital on the PS4 which is not true.

Asmodai said,

Of course it's a trade off, but what I personally feel and based off of the chatter on the internet giving up used games, game rentals, and true offline play to be able to lend digital games is a bad trade.

This console generation is Blu-Ray driven which hold up to 50GB. If the XBox One HAS to have the game fully installed on the Hard Disk to play how many games do you really think people are going to share? You're going to spontaneously install a say 30GB AAA title on your friends hard drive on a regular basis? How long is that going to take you only for it to disable itself in 24 hours. I know I wouldn't want people installing tens of GB sized games on my non-user upgradable 500GB hard drive that are going to blow up in a day. You can't even play the games with them, only one of you can be running the game at a time.

My issue though is that may people seem to imply that Sony doesn't have digital distribution and instead requires the use of the discs. This is not true as every disc game will have a digital version so you can go all digital. As to a comparison between Sony's and MSs digital distribution details I don't think we know enough to compare but I certainly welcome that comparison, it's not what this op here was doing though. The op implied you couldn't go all digital on the PS4 which is not true.

We're not fully giving up used games, and as far as rentals go they're still working on that though not right now. Full offline play would be one thing i'd like to see be a option and I believe they can still do it and might with all this bad PR they have but we'll see.

Asmodai said,

You're going to spontaneously install a say 30GB AAA title on your friends hard drive on a regular basis? How long is that going to take you only for it to disable itself in 24 hours.

How long? Two seconds; games can be played as they install. According to Microsoft, "With Xbox One, you can start playing immediately as games install." [1] So you inster the disc, press play, and you're ready to go as it installs.

I know I wouldn't want people installing tens of GB sized games on my non-user upgradable 500GB hard drive that are going to blow up in a day.

The harddrive is not user upgradable. But total storage space is user upgradable by attaching an external harddrive. "the USB 3.0 port is there for external storage, which can be used for everything the internal storage can be used for. That includes game installs and downloads." [2] Given this, it's really disingenuous to claim the included hard drive is not upgradeable.

You can't even play the games with them, only one of you can be running the game at a time.

That's not clear from Microsoft's wording. "You can always play your games, and any one of your family members can be playing from your shared library at a given time." [3] From this it seems like you can always play your games, and that one other person can play it as well. Meaning they won't block you from playing your game. Sounds to me like you *can* play a game with someone else. Big step forward from the status quo and Sony's system if that's the case.

My issue though is that may people seem to imply that Sony doesn't have digital distribution and instead requires the use of the discs. This is not true as every disc game will have a digital version so you can go all digital.

This is not what people are saying. They are saying that Sony does not have the right policies in place to accomodate an all digital library. How do you lend a digital game on PS4?

[1] http://www.xbox.com/en-US/xboxone/what-it-is
[2] http://www.engadget.com/2013/05/21/xbox-one-hard-drive/
[3] http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/license

ModernMech said,

How long? Two seconds; games can be played as they install. According to Microsoft, "With Xbox One, you can start playing immediately as games install." [1] So you inster the disc, press play, and you're ready to go as it installs.

We aren't talking about discs, we're talking about the digital downloads and both platforms let you play while the game downloads though I suspect neither will get enough data in 2 seconds to play a game unless you have an insanely fast connection.
ModernMech said,
Given this, it's really disingenuous to claim the included hard drive is not upgradeable.

I didn't say total storage wasn't upgradable I said the hard drive. I don't think that's disingenuous at all. Both consoles have USB 3 ports.
ModernMech said,

That's not clear from Microsoft's wording.

Not from that quote but they've clarified that you won't be able to play the same game at the same time.
ModernMech said,
"You can always play your games, and any one of your family members can be playing from your shared library at a given time." [3] From this it seems like you can always play your games, and that one other person can play it as well. Meaning they won't block you from playing your game. Sounds to me like you *can* play a game with someone else. Big step forward from the status quo and Sony's system if that's the case.

Any one of your mamily member can be playing [a different game] from your shared library at a given time is how they've clarified that. If you have 10 games shared then playing one doesn't lock the other 9 but you can't both play the same one at the same time.
ModernMech said,

This is not what people are saying. They are saying that Sony does not have the right policies in place to accomodate an all digital library. How do you lend a digital game on PS4?

Sony has stated that every PS4 game will be available for download. Maybe they can't lend digital versions of the game. That doesn't mean you can't go digital with a PS4. You could get a PS4 and buy every game you want for the system in a digital version if you like which the op implied was a MS only thing. SHARING digital copies of the games may very well be a MS only thing. Sony hasn't really spelled out the digital side of things as they've been focusing on the fact that if you CHOOSE to go the disc route it will continue to work just as the PS3 does now. If you choose to go all-digital then it will work differently.

With MS you get the same experience either way. The disc is just a download cache basically (and if you can download enough of the game to play in 2 seconds as you suggest then a pointless one at that). For Sony they are two different versions. The Disc version doesn't HAVE to have a full install (though that may be an option) and uses the disc itself for DRM. The Downloaded Sony version can play during download, will obviously have to be fully installed, and will likely be tied to your account (possibly even your machine, that's unclear). You won't be able to lend digital versions because it doesn't phone home to invalidate the lent version. Maybe Sony will allow for unlimited license transfers though instead of limiting it to one like MS and requiring the person be on your friends list for 30 days. Maybe Sony won't tie it to the machine at all so you can install it at a friends house and play with them just by logging in. Who knows because again I haven't seen Sony's digital distribution policy detailed but they HAVE stated EVERY disc game will have a downloadable version.

We aren't talking about discs, we're talking about the digital downloads and both platforms let you play while the game downloads though I suspect neither will get enough data in 2 seconds to play a game unless you have an insanely fast connection.

So then you realize your concern is totally moot. Your concern as you stated it in your post was that Xbox On HAS to have the game fully installed. But this is not the case and it seems like now you realize it.

I didn't say total storage wasn't upgradable I said the hard drive.

Then what's your problem? You made it sound like you didn't want friends to install games on your drive because space was precious as it's not upgradeable. But it's easily upgradeable. This is the disconnect between your words and reality.

Not from that quote but they've clarified that you won't be able to play the same game at the same time.

I didn't see that clarification. But that just means it's no different from the status quo, but you still get the ability to share the game without sharing the media. That is a huge benefit.

but they HAVE stated EVERY disc game will have a downloadable version.

That's all well and good, but having a 100% digital library on Sony's system as it stands is not the same as having a 100% digital library on Microsoft's system. Microsoft's vision is going full broke for digital and creating a console and policies around that idea. Sony isn't committing fully, and will eventually have to face a stark reality when those who have invested in a 100% PS4 digital libray realize they can't share any of it like they could on Xbox.

This discussion has gone WAY off topic. The op implied that you could not go all digital on the PS4. My point was that you can because Sony has already confirmed that all disc games will be available for download as well. Now it may very well be true that you can't loan those games but you CAN go all digital on the PS4.

ModernMech said,

So then you realize your concern is totally moot. Your concern as you stated it in your post was that Xbox On HAS to have the game fully installed. But this is not the case and it seems like now you realize it.

No that wasn't my concern at all. The FULLY Installed reference I was making was to draw the distinction between the fact that all game data must be installed on a Xbox One, even if purchased via a disc, so in a worse case scenario you can get 10 games that filled the 50GB Blu-Ray discs on the 500GB hard drive. On the PS4 since the games can play from the Discs you don't have to copy all the data to the hard drive and thus you could concievably have hundreds of 50GB games without having to upgrade your storage. This went along with my point that if you ever did want to upgrade your storage on the PS4 you actually can upgrade the internal storage in addition to adding external storage. My point was NOT that the game had to be fully installed before you could run it. Neither system requires that so it is a wash in any comparison between them.


ModernMech said,

Then what's your problem? You made it sound like you didn't want friends to install games on your drive because space was precious as it's not upgradeable. But it's easily upgradeable. This is the disconnect between your words and reality.

My point was that you will fill up your internal hard drive more quickly on the Xbox One because even the disc based games have to copy all of their data to the hard drive and to draw the distinction that while both systems may have USB 3 ports for external storage options only the PS4 allows you to upgrade the internal drive.
ModernMech said,

I didn't see that clarification. But that just means it's no different from the status quo, but you still get the ability to share the game without sharing the media. That is a huge benefit.

Many people, including myself, don't seem to think being able to share a game without media is such a huge benefit to be worth losing the ability to play even single player games if your system is offline for 24 hours. If you do that's fine but you act like this is some great benefit that everyone is going to think it worth it, it's not.
ModernMech said,

That's all well and good, but having a 100% digital library on Sony's system as it stands is not the same as having a 100% digital library on Microsoft's system. Microsoft's vision is going full broke for digital and creating a console and policies around that idea. Sony isn't committing fully, and will eventually have to face a stark reality when those who have invested in a 100% PS4 digital libray realize they can't share any of it like they could on Xbox.

I never said going digital on the PS4 was the exact same as going digital on the XBox One. You CAN go all digital on the PS4 though, you can get every single game for the system digitally. Maybe you can't trade them, maybe they are tied to a system, maybe they aren't. But you CAN go all digital on both. I personally am glad they aren't the same. I don't want my single player games becoming useless if I'm offline for 24 hours. You may decide otherwise and that's fine but again the OP implied you cannot go all digital and that is incorrect. I'm not saying everyone should like the PS4 version better, I'm just saying you CAN go all digital. Some may like the MS version better then the PS4 one, some may like the PS4 version better than the MS one.

Principled stances against DRM seem to work great until continuing to uphold those stances actually requires some form of financial gamble.

So what? It's not their fault MS put this DRM on XOne, and they certainly will not ignore such an important platform. They are running a business after all.

P.S. It wouldn't make any difference to me. The last console I bought was a sega genesis/megadrive. I've been on PC ever since.

the better twin said,
Their fellow country men cant play their game on the Xbox One either (not available in Poland).
Money talks.

Money keeps them a successful business able to create the games in the first place.

the better twin said,
Their fellow country men cant play their game on the Xbox One either (not available in Poland).
Money talks.

The Xbox One is not available in Poland at launch. The Witcher 3 isn't a launch title so it might be available in Poland by the time it's released, nobody knows.

the better twin said,
Money talks.

is developer suppose to put their time and develop for free? I don't know why he was against DRM at first place. its like I open my door and shout: "hey come in steal my stuff, I am not calling cops"

S3P€hR said,

is developer suppose to put their time and develop for free? I don't know why he was against DRM at first place. its like I open my door and shout: "hey come in steal my stuff, I am not calling cops"

Because it ****es off your loyal customers, and the pirates will get to play the game anyway. Same as always.

they just need a new type of non intrusive DRM.. I like Xbox ones approach better then EA's where you need to be online all the time you are playing games instead of for like 20 seconds a day..

S3P€hR said,
is developer suppose to put their time and develop for free? I don't know why he was against DRM at first place. its like I open my door and shout: "hey come in steal my stuff, I am not calling cops"

DRM done wrong doesn't screw with Pirates... it screws paying customers. Look at Sims as a prime example.

A better example is a local garden. They have plants they sell SITTING OUTSIDE! Without locks and gun turrets. Whats to stop people from just driving away? Honest customers. Instead of spending time and money on thieves, they keep it easy for honest customers.

Guess what? They haven't been robbed out of business. Neither has GoG/Witcher.

Lachlan said,
they just need a new type of non intrusive DRM.. I like Xbox ones approach better then EA's where you need to be online all the time you are playing games instead of for like 20 seconds a day..
For me, if I start up my Xbox, then I am online. It's really that simple, and I am wonder how many people that complain are actually different.