Editorial

Editorial: Please, give Apple a break

Apple is one of the most influential companies in the world, who have defined the way we compute by spotting markets that need change, and the solutions for them before anyone else. It's hard to imagine a world where their innovations aren't present, and their devices aren't everywhere you look. But for as long as I can remember, everything Apple has ever produced has created frustrating contention. From every announcement, rumour or interview with an executive, we get some excellent debate, and some insightful scrutiny, but even more so we get trolls and people who just do not understand the company.

Many of us see them as an evil corporation set on making money from brainwashed teenagers who are mesmerised and enthralled by glimmering slabs of aluminium, and so leave Apple with far too much hate. They are successful, and produce popular and powerful products, so why spend your time criticising them? 'It's not fair, because Android is far more customisable!' people scream and shout from every corner and 'Windows Phone deserves more attention!', is murmured from a devoted but sadly small Microsoft fan base. These statements are absolutely true, but is any of this Apple's fault? Is it really worth posting a comment on every Apple related news article complaining that they've 'stopped innovating'?

Apple's website following the MacWorld 2007 iPhone reveal

Personally, I see Apple as the most interesting company in the technology landscape. They produce some of the best products, and have a devoted, passionate, and admirable executive team. But I'm not an Apple fanboy. I own an Android phone, which replaced a Windows Phone 7 device. I can see when Apple make mistakes and can't defend Apple maps in any shape or form! But I will do everything possible to stand up against people who don't understand their ethos and say that the iPhone 5s is the same as the iPhone 5'same', because it has an almost identical outer body. Everything Apple omit, everything they include, they do so for a reason, and usually a good one. Now I want you to appreciate that condemning Apple is not worth your time, because frankly, most of the time, you're wrong.

Let's start with the iPhone. A product that has defined Apple in the last six years and has driven the industry forward in much of that period. It doesn't lead in terms of specs, and not even always in sales. The Lumia 925 and HTC One show that other companies are capable of similarly high levels of hardware design, and the small screen size is a pain for some. It would be easy to say the iPhone is a lifestyle choice, and that there are better phones but people prefer the simplicity and elegance of iOS, the rock-solid ecosystem and the unquestionably beautiful industrial design. But that would be wrong. Despite not leading when it comes to raw numbers, in real world usage, the iPhone 5s works exactly how you expect: smooth, fast and efficient. Apple have been known to market the Mac as a computer that "just works" and the same now applies to the iPhone. Customers want a phone that does everything they need, well, and without hassle. Android sadly doesn't provide this due to fragmentation (although that's a rant for another day) and Windows Phone just doesn't have the apps (which still leaves me disappointed). The iPhone 5s may have the same body shape as the iPhone 5, but the new internals assure that it runs consistently fast, supports more versatile apps, and Apple even throw in a few gimmicky features to keep everyone happy, including Touch ID and 120fps video recording.

By now we shouldn't be surprised when Apple release an 's' device. Anyone who has followed the technology industry for more than 2 years, even apathetically, will remember that Apple only update the design of the iPhone every 2 years. It doesn't mean they've stopped innovating, as innovation doesn't only lie in what we see. There was some controversy over the A7 chip inside the iPhone 5s and its 64-bit architecture. Neowin's own Christopher White complained that it was 'marketing fluff' when in fact this was a rash judgment. The 64-bit paves the way for Apple's future, CNET reported, and while the hype over it may seem over the top, it is worth considering Apple's long term plans, which may involve building ARM based desktop processors requiring 4GB of RAM or more. We know that the transition to 64-bit was a long slog for the desktop market, so Apple have entered early on as they know the case will be the same for mobile. And while it may look like developers are going to get a hard time, it is actually easy for them to make the switch, and still support older devices as Apple have created tools to allow for the relatively easy conversion to 64-bit. They also have promised a future version of Xcode that will allow a single app to contain both the 32-bit and 64-bit binaries. The fact of the matter is, it is very easy to fall for Apple's marketing, but it is equally compelling to try and debunk it when it looks over the top. In reality, Apple usually know what they are doing and have long term plans.

'The Mac is for idiots' is a phrase uttered usually with some conviction. This statement comes in many different forms, such as 'what's the point of a retina display mac, you can't even see the pixels'? and 'People only buy Macs because they are shiny.' Remember, that in essence, a Mac performs the same function as a PC, just differently. With a Mac, of course, you get a more closed system than Windows but it is not actually that significant. The issue of incompatible apps isn't such a big deal any more, as the App Store contains pretty much anything you need and developers are becoming more accepting that the Mac is no longer a niche market (of course, if you're a serious gamer, a PC or a console is the only option). Macs are different, technologically and functionally to PCs. They are far from bad computers, and surprisingly, they are not bad value for money. For the chipsets you get, combined with the stellar industrial design, paying a premium isn't a bad thing. PCs of the same caliber often cost the same amount, leaving those complaining about the price of a mac in the wrong. Macs aren't cheap, but they are worth the money in many respects.

The Retina Display has been an area of contention since Apple began offering it on the Macbook Pro. It is an astonishing screen. Video and photos look stunning, and you have to use it to appreciate it. When people complain that it's a waste of money, they don't realise that the Retina Display models also come exclusively with SSDs and are far more powerful than the other models. You aren't just paying extra for the display, and even if you were, I'm sure many users would still go for it. Anyone with good eyesight can tell the difference instantly. Unlike some people may assume, you don't need to sit an inch away from the screen to notice it. The Retina Display is not a necessity for many, but that's why it is an option.

To open their developer conference this summer, Apple played a video explaining their views on necessity and how there are so many no's for every yes. The iPhone may not have NFC, but NFC hasn't been adopted by enough retailers to warrant the addition on an iPhone. They took what felt like forever to introduce multitasking, but when they did it, they did it far better than their competitors at the time. Whenever you don't like something Apple has done, watch the above video (which I must agree is very pretentious), and realise that it is probably like that for a reason. Apple have strong focus, and that focus may not be the same as what you want, but it is what they want. Steve Jobs once said:

Our goal is to make the best personal computers in the world and to make products we are proud to sell and would recommend to our family and friends.

If the above is not the same as what you want, that's not Apple's problem, it's yours. And you can go out and buy a fantastic Windows Phone device or Android phone that you will love. And there's no problem with that. But criticising Apple for the products they make isn't always the right way to go. Because they are good products. Sales figures, a huge fan base and the solid ecosystem of apps and services prove that. They aren't perfect, but they don't deserve the trolling and the disrespect. So please, give Apple a break.

Images: Apple

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apple won't give us a break so why should we? what about half an hour without a 'rumor' fresh out of cupertino? what about ditching the post-launch 'supply problem' ritual? what about scaling back on the meaningless superlatives? there you go, that's a start.

Apple has it haters as does any company. Should Apple suddenly be exempt from this? Nope, not unless every company get's the same leeway.

Apple owes a lot of it's current disrespect to the way it conducted itself and built a cult around it's products. Don't get me wrong, if i had products like them to sell i'd try to do the same but it has left them with a bad taste in the general public which was something they'd surely have foreseen.

Ah yes, the perfect troll bait article with one person drinking the coolaid of some large corporation and trying to push his views on other people.

The worst part of all of this, is the moderators deleting comments, when this entire article should have been deleted right when it was posted.

I can still see NeoWin is 1st Class. /s

people scream and shout from every corner and 'Windows Phone deserves more attention!', is murmured from a devoted but sadly small Microsoft fan base. These statements are absolutely true, but is any of this Apple's fault?

It is strange that you use this example of something that is not Apple's fault. If you would have done a bit of research, it is one of the more prominent demonstrations when Apple has taken an active role to side a product.

1) Undermine the technology - When WP7 was leaked, Apple used a variation of the multi-tasking model Microsoft designed for the platform. The next iOS release prior to WP7's commercial release included this model, along with several specific UI features from WP7. (Google did the same with Android, borrowing copy & paste UI constructs, etc.)

2) Undermine WP7 availability - Verizon was set to release several WP7 devices at launch. Apple stepped in to offer the iPhone to Verizon, with the usual insane commitment to sell a large volume of devices. However, along with this agreement, Apple required Verizon to delay their WP7 product releases for six months after the WP7 release date. This killed off one of the OEM CDMA WP7 devices, and six months later the HTC Trophy was the only WP7 device Verizon offered, and didn't even carry in corporate stores. Verizon was to be key for WP7, and if anyone remembers, Microsoft had already given out WP7 coupons to Microsoft employees for Verizon phones.

3) Undermine Development - Although it has been known in the industry, public light has recently started to surface that Apple is actively paying developers NOT to develop software for WP7/WP8. One of the best fund raising tricks for a known developer is to tell Apple they are going to port their software to WP8 or commit resources for WP8 release of their next version. Apple has been paying these developers well, and it ranges from essential Apps like Instagram to various game titles. The oddity, is Apple is less afraid of Android versions, although it has been discovered they have also paid some developers to stop their Android development as well.

4) Dubious Media Attention - Journalists normally are not supposed to accept free products, especially if it is something they are going to review. To get around this, Apple provides reviewers with a lot of free products for review, but with no set timeframe. Another way they get around any journalistic integrity, they will dump a bunch of free products to a media parent company, like GE which them gives the products out to their media divisions like NBC. So even the journalists that avoid the free Apple products are surrounded by their coworkers that have free iPods, iPhones, iPads, Macs, etc.

With regard to the last item, I would be shocked if you have not already received long term 'evaluation' products from Apple or will soon be getting free or long term 'evaluation' device from Apple.

Even back in 2006 when Chris P., a known Windows enthusiast, made news by bashing Vista and moving over to reviewing Apple products and touting OS X. That same month he received several thousands of dollars in free Apple computers and displays. -Which he eventually admitted to receiving and why he turned his focus to Apple for a few years.

So yes, things like attention in the media, device availability, and even App availability can be directly linked back to aggressive actions Apple has taken, and they do have fault in burying any product they see as a threat.

Do a bit of research on the free dumps of products to media companies like NBC, ABC, Huffington Post, CNN, and CNet/ZDnet that is provided directly or through their parent companies.

There is a reason Apple no longer buys as many Ads as they did back in the 2007 timeframe. Pick a random non-tech site that writes about technology from Forbes or the WSJ to MSNBC or the Huffington post. (I have friends at each of these companies, with one friend that has literally thrown Apple products that pile up on their desk in the trash.)

God forbid anyone criticize Apple or even so much as hold them to the same candle that every other major successful company is held to. Apple has made glaring mistakes with regard to security in their products such as convincing their user base that they didn't need antivirus, or ignoring the serious security hole that exists by leaving a system level console unsecured by default with Single User Mode. Lets not even forget the fact that there has been a longstanding hole in QuickTime where someone can execute an applescript file with system level privileges purely by giving the applescript file a .mov extension. The real issue here is not that Apple receives unnecessary criticism, it is that Apple refuses to acknowledge that it isn't perfect, as nothing man-made ever is, and making a wholehearted attempt to work with the community to solve these problems. Everyone is quick to bash Microsoft for its shortcomings and, quite frankly, I think Microsoft enjoys it because it helps them to understand what they are doing wrong so that they can work to make it right. Microsoft was once ranked the #1 company when it comes to security, not because of a lack of security issues, but because Microsoft was quick to respond. They worked with security analysts instead of against them and they quickly published updates to resolve the problems. Kaspersky even ranks Apple worse than Microsoft when it comes to vulnerabilities in their software. The real lesson here is that one should never shut out criticism, no matter how uncomfortable, as it presents an opportunity to grow and become stronger.

when ever i see someone dissing apple, all i see is a young kid trying to be cool like all his freinds....

(disclaimer: I use Android, but would prefer IOS, just wish they had bigger screen)

rippleman said,
when ever i see someone dissing apple, all i see is a young kid trying to be cool like all his freinds....

(disclaimer: I use Android, but would prefer IOS, just wish they had bigger screen)

Ironically, the cool kids and the kids with money are Apple consumers.

I watch my brothers family, and he is forced to buy iPhone and Mac time and time again because he is wealthy and his kids want the 'cool' products. (My brother is a Microsoft professional that despises Apple, and I so feel for him, especially when he is replacing screens on his kid's iPhones on a weekly basis due to their fragility in contrast to his WP8 Nokia phone that he literally ran over and it still doesn't have a scratch.)

then you must run in the wrong circles, all the "cool" (or so they think) kids run android, search around her on neowin, even just here there are hundreds ...

Mobius Enigma said,

Ironically, the cool kids and the kids with money are Apple consumers.

I watch my brothers family, and he is forced to buy iPhone and Mac time and time again because he is wealthy and his kids want the 'cool' products. (My brother is a Microsoft professional that despises Apple, and I so feel for him, especially when he is replacing screens on his kid's iPhones on a weekly basis due to their fragility in contrast to his WP8 Nokia phone that he literally ran over and it still doesn't have a scratch.)

I like apple and competition is good. However, remember that they have slaves in factories overseas while they sit on large amounts of cash. They find tax loop holes to avoid paying taxes. I guess you cannot blame them since they did not make the loop holes but come on. The thing that bothers me the most are apple fans. One of my friends is an Apple fan and he will not ever stop talking about is iPhone, iPad, or Apple. I get tired of it. I cannot even have a conversation with the guy. Every Apple fan I come across is the same way. Space out and talking about Apple this Apple that. That same person does not make a lot of money but is willing to spend everything he has to upgrade his phone for a minor update. I just do not understand. Maybe since you are an Apple fan you can explain some of these things .

All large electronic companies have the same "behind the scenes work problem". I have never heard one person ever go on an on about their phone other then the Android fanteens here on neowin.

BillyJack said,
I like apple and competition is good. However, remember that they have slaves in factories overseas while they sit on large amounts of cash. They find tax loop holes to avoid paying taxes. I guess you cannot blame them since they did not make the loop holes but come on. The thing that bothers me the most are apple fans. One of my friends is an Apple fan and he will not ever stop talking about is iPhone, iPad, or Apple. I get tired of it. I cannot even have a conversation with the guy. Every Apple fan I come across is the same way. Space out and talking about Apple this Apple that. That same person does not make a lot of money but is willing to spend everything he has to upgrade his phone for a minor update. I just do not understand. Maybe since you are an Apple fan you can explain some of these things .

"the App Store contains pretty much anything you need "

Now that's hype to match Apple's hype. There is almost zero software for business. Project management? Zilch. Customer relations management? Nada. How about Dental Lab Management? Not a sniff. 4D/5D Construction Management? Are you kidding me?

Truth is the Mac is REALLY just a shiny toy. It's a consumer product not a work computer. People seem to have forgotten that the vast majority of desktop computers are used for business. Real business not browsing business or tweeting your facebook business. Work business.

Sorry, there's no getting away from this and there's no way anyone can hide the FACT that the Mac ecosystem is sooooo lacking in applications (not tiny apps, real applications) that it's not a serious contender for anything. In all surveys regarding desktop/laptop market penetration, Apple has been included in the "Other" section for going on 20 years. If Mac keeps growing the way it is, it's be another 35 years before it gets out of the Other category.

People criticise the Windows Phone ecosystem for lacking apps. Yet the same authors write editorials lauding Apple and simply gloss over this HUGE issue. Then they claim they're not falling foul of Apple's marketing. That's funny.

Well played Neowin, well played. Look at the amount of replies to this topic. Seems it was written specifically to generate a high number of replies (and hence traffic), and it did exactly that. The last thing Neowin wants is for the pro and anti Apple users to stop defending their opinions. Not good for the advertising

I'm unable to disclose specifics, but while I wanted to create much discussion, this post has not had unusually high traffic. I'm not fussed by this, because of the conversation here in the comments. Please don't assume we're always driven by money and advertising!

How can you possibly see Apple as the most interesting player on the tech landscape? They've been treading water for a few years now.

Google and Microsoft are doing the more interesting things regards tech. Apple is just rehashing their cash cows.

Walrush said,
How can you possibly see Apple as the most interesting player on the tech landscape? They've been treading water for a few years now.

Google and Microsoft are doing the more interesting things regards tech. Apple is just rehashing their cash cows.

To be honest, Microsoft hasn't done anything but try and catch up to apple/android phones and tablets. They haven't really done anything new. Surface has had a rough time getting going because it has the same inherit with walled gardens that apple has.

The only new thing google has done is glass....

And yes, Apple has only released the iPad Mini, no new products but upgrading what they have to run better and give small advancements. Mostly the same as sammy and the others.

I support this article, as a lover of Windows, Android, and iOS. Please stop the stupid hate remarks for all included. There are facts for each ecosystem that deserve discussion, but the ridiculous hate comments and blind bashing without research are extremely unnecessary.

The worst part of Apple isn't the blind devotion.
It's the delusion from devoted fans that nothing could be as good.

The worst part of Microsoft isn't the fans.
It's the tech media that pretends they're not bias against them.

The worst part of Google isn't their legion.
It's their belief that the industry would be better if Google controlled everything.

Why not stop bashing all together, not just apple but everyone? The only way it will happen is to remove the comments section. There are just to many people that need to hurt others, to feel good about themselves.

"Apple is one of the most influential companies in the world, who have defined the way we compute...."
This editorial started reaaaally well and objective.

My issue with Apple is not the quality of their products, but that their philosophy has damaged the tech industry. In the early days they made design choices that improved usability by putting the features people "need" out front and cutting off the potential for more niche use cases. Using an Apple product isn't about making all the potential of the device available, it's about making it as easy as possible to do the tasks you want to do most. It would be fine if they were understood that way.

The mindshare they achieved has lured all other companies into following their model. Features for power users are being slowly buried under more layers of interface (or removed altogether) on all devices across all platforms. Meaningless features are added to satisfy the consumption-centric use cases of the masses.

If things continue as they are, I see a future where power users will be forced to participate in completely separate ecosystems or be satisfied with experiences that want to hold your hand at every turn and resist whenever you want to leave the beaten path. The dream of unlimited potential from a computer-literate generation has turned out do be a generation hooked on social media.

I can't blame Apple for going after an untapped market and catering to their every need. It's been a great business strategy and they've even managed to make their devices functional for just about anything you could need it to do through a STRONG app market. However, while apps are great, I remember a time when features weren't nearly so granular. I often have five apps on my WP8 device to do different flavors of the same task. Windows is now moving in the same direction. Gone are the days when you could download Paint.NET (or some similar program) and have one extensible image-editing experience that did just about everything you needed (although not as well as some other options).

In summary, marketability has trumped workflow in the tech world and I largely blame Apple (not as the worst current offender in making dumbed-down products, but as being the original perpetrators of the marketing strategy that led to all of this). Of course, Google is a whole different animal, but has also let marketability rule their decisions (I suppose, that's exactly what an ad company should do). Yes, I'm irrational at times in my rage against Apple and Google (I try to limit it to real life interactions and not rant on the internet), but it's all based on disappointment that rather than elevate the skillset of the market the tech industry is racing toward a consumption-centric experience for consumer-level products. I largely blame Apple's marketing lies of the past and their (condescending) philosophy of only including features people need of the present and this article really didn't address that.

CLARIFICATIONS (After I posted): I realize you can still get Paint.NET (I now use a legally obtained copy of CS6), but the motivation for making new apps based on this model of doing everything in one interface is very slim because it's much easier to sell ten $0.99 apps than one $10.00. Also, while I wish they were more focused primarily on productivity, I use, and quite like, Windows 8.1 and WP8. I am a self-identified MS fanboy (don't bother trying to insult me with that label).

Edited by BradyM, Oct 15 2013, 3:21pm :

Yeah, I do agree that Apple deserves a break. Honestly I think the iPhone 5s is great, I don't know why people are knocking on it

While at that, i'd say Microsoft deserves a break too.

Oh, please.

Apple: Next version of our product will be released soon!

Tech media and most of Internet: What incredibly cool new features will you give us?

Microsoft: Next version of our product will be released soon!

Tech media and most of Internet: I'M READY TO HATE!

That, and even the positive articles about MS stuff always feel require to disclaim with "if you can believe it," or "they actually got it right," or any number of other phrases that express "assume it sucks until proven decent."

If Apple is the victim of anything, it's the huge expectations that come with all the hype they built up around themselves, with every new thing having to be the most special and magical ever. I think they're more than able to endure a little criticism, occasionally.

Here's why I think Apple gets bashed more than some other IT companies:
1. For years, they had an advertising campaign that basically made fun of people for using PCs. Sure, they used humans to play the roles of the actual products, but on a subconcious level, they were really deriding those who chose Windows PCs over Apple computers. And they did this without ever really demonstrating exactly what made Apple products better. Even now, with Microsoft taking some pot shots at the iPad in their Surface and Windows RT ads, they are only showing the products and comparing the features and capabilities (or lack thereof) in each.

2. The other reason was the arrogant attitude that Steve Jobs displayed many times. The guy really seemed like a self-righteous jerk who believed everything Apple did was magical, and everyone else was second-rate. You never really got that vibe from Bill Gates or Microsoft.

3. Another minor reason is likely the cost of their products. When you configure and personalize a MacPro on their site, the cost of extras seems out of line with current costs. For example, their base MacPro costs $2,500. That looks like the cost of computers in the mid-90s, not now. An additional 2 GB of RAM costs $75.00. Really? To add a DVD/CD Burner (which they magically call a SuperDrive) is $100. That's kind of ridiculous when you consider that you can get a DVD burner for $20 nowadays, or 2 GB of DDR3 RAM for about the same cost. So why do they charge so much? Is it because they realize their consumer base aren't the kind of folks that would ever visit places like Newegg to see how much such components cost in the real world, not the fantasy world created by Apple? Maybe.

Maybe the author of this editorial could have taken the opportunity to write about how ALL tech companies get unfairly bashed all over the internet due to trolls and those biased against one company.

I'm sorry, but Apple is not the only victim here. I think the worst thing you can do is write an article insinuating that Apple is the big loser here, the big victim that we should all pity. All that does is highlight more bias.

I'm not sure that any single tech company is the most victimized on the internet, but MS is easily the equal of Apple in that regard. Personally, I feel MS gets it a bit worse simply because they have products in more markets than Apple, so they are exposed to more trolls and bias.

Heck, even the mainstream media pays more attention to what Apple does than MS, or at least is more enthusiastic about it.

Google gets its share of bashing, but the bashing does not seem as active or as in your face as those for say MS and Apple. Again, maybe that is due to Google not having products in as many markets or due to them being relatively new compared to those two. Sony also takes hits. but again, they have fewer products to be bashed.

It would be great if more people stood up and said enough is enough, stop with the childish BS, but that has not happened yet. Not to mention the fact that you have a gaming/tech media (pros with websites and amateurs via youtube videos) that sometimes like to fan the flames and encourage the behavior for their own gain.

Give everyone a break! Trolling is just so, so boring. I use...

Microsoft Surface Pro
Apple iPhone 5S
Google Chrome
Sony PlayStation 3

I love technology! Not just one company... although overall I will always fully support Microsoft. Back in my school days I used to hate Apple and in fact would argue with fans all the time, but they've stepped up to the mark in the last 5-10 years and I think they're an amazing company. In fact, the more people troll against them, the more I end up liking them.

Oh and when anyone calls someone an iSheep or similar, well it just makes their comment completely irrelevant imo, get a life

Great editorial. I think Apple gets a lot of unnecessary hate on many websites, including Neowin. The comments on this editorial alone are enough to explain why editorials like this exist.

njn007 said,
Great editorial. I think Apple gets a lot of unnecessary hate on many websites, including Neowin. The comments on this editorial alone are enough to explain why editorials like this exist.

I completely agree with this and could not have said it better myself.

But, but....android does flash!!!

Editorial is not bad, but I don't think many people understand what an editorial actually is, yet for some reason they still post their arguments here.

It's quite hilarious to see people post essays as a response to why they hate Apple or to show how Android is supperior. It's like when Eric told a room full of people that Android is more secure and everyone laughed at his face.

Break? HELL NO! We all know how AWESOME Apple as a technology company has became for almost three decades and it just continue to alter our lives every once in a while and we couldn't be more excited to provide troll and jokes for their iProducts in past,present and future.

give Apple a break ... with a KitKat

they might have had a better chance at a break if their plastic iPhone was priced a lot cheaper ...

Personally, I can't give 'em a break. They seem to act like they're the best sliced bread among many loaves. I don't see it, never have. Just overpriced same-as-everyone-else's sliced bread.

Yawn, Apple gets no break, for to long their were arrogant little pricks selling over priced products to masses of drones that would also be little pricks about it.

Apple fans were the brain washed zombies of the tech world and I'm more than happy to see apple and it's masses of zombies come back down to earth.

If I want to read how great an Apple product is, I'll go to a Apple fan base site. If I want to read how great a Microsoft product is I'll go a Microsoft site.

This site is in a identity crisis. They're slowly trying to become neutral site and slowly losing their user base. At the same time, I don't think they're going to get new users because a Apple or Android fan boys could care less about coming here.

End result, this site will slowly become non existent in the next 5 years unless they realize who their user base really is.

"The issue of incompatible apps isn't such a big deal any more, as the App Store contains pretty much anything you need and developers are becoming more accepting that the Mac is no longer a niche market"
-----
could not dissagree more. the latest numbers show mac marketshare taking a further plunge and with less macs around, developers will continue to abandon the platform. In the so called post-pc era, the mac is in the same bad position it has always been, but it now has no forseable future as whatever remains of the pc market remains on windows since the enterprise will never adopt macs. Apple has virtually abandoned the pro market as it was clear from the lackluster FCP and Aperture releases, and the end of the server and powerful G workstations that have been replaced with cheaper faster pc workstations. As a result, macs suffer from a worse position app wise than even windows phone which is often hammered for its lack of apps. If you agree that windows phone has an app problem, then the situation is much worse on the mac where no apps have been the staple food for decades. And yes, the mac still doesn't have instagram...or just about any other top app . With productivity being the last bastion of the PC, and with that market having left the mac long algo, and with apple's plunging mac sales numbers, it is time for the mac to join the Newton in a batter place. The mac simply died with Steve Jobs and it is time to leave both to the pages of history.

I think there's truth to this article, for the most part, but I also think it falls into the same trap it tries to fence off for others. It *is* fair to say that Apple takes flack, and I tend to agree that it's unfair, but only because I feel it's misdirected.

I'm very nearly an MS fanboy. I like to think that's only because I happen to like a lot of MS products, and I'm not overtly anti-MS like so many others. I'm a WP user from the start, I don't love Android (I find it... uninteresting and a little ugly), I'm about to upgrade to 8.1 and look forward to it, and I'm in a perpetual struggle to remain open-minded about Apple *products*.

I've spent a lot of time talking to Mac users trying to get them to explain why they love their Macs to much, and why they couldn't possibly entertain the prospect of trying out Windows with a similar level of open-mindedness. I found one person, a non-expert, who made a single solid argument in favour of OSx: it comes with more software out of the box, so without the need to download hidden extras (Live Essentials?) you can edit photos (red-eye etc,.) and produce and print photo albums and presentations. It all works out of the box, and ignoring the fact that Windows has been gutted by the authorities, not MS, it doesn't change that undeniable advantage in Apple's 'minority corner'.

Everyone else I've asked, typically technophobes or the generally disinterested long-term Mac user with no reason to switch, can't present an argument to defend their technology of choice. I've even asked some more knowledgeable users and even then it seems to boil down to familiarity. I've found that most people who claim an advantage turn out only to play the age-old, out-dated argument that "Mac's are better for DTP and graphics", which was negligible back when Apple used that in their marketing and everyone believed it like it would change their lives, but is now a myth buried in the Intel silicon of time (see what I did there?).

As I said, I try to remain open-minded because I've played with OSx and while I can't find any redeeming features, I also can't find any particular reason to hate on it. The same goes for the iPhone. The *software* seems to have barely changed since the beginning, but that doesn't make it a bad product.

My experience of OSx is that it's a perfectly viable platform, and people who are invested in it probably don't need to bother switching. But at the same time, my inability to find an redeeming features raises another issue: does OSx justify itself? It's ok to have an alternative product, so I suppose that's justification enough right there, but I find OSx to be all too similar to Windows. It doesn't really seem to differentiate itself enough to justify the rift between it's users, or indeed the compatibility rift between certain software on either side.

So the source of my frustration isn't Apple, as a company, but their products. And even then, it's not really their products that frustrate me, but the people who buy them. SO MANY people buy the iPhone every year. I imagine they really believe it's the best phone and they couldn't possibly try something else. Many are locked into the ecosystem, so that's understandable, but Apple attract a lot of new customers too. Nobody denies that Apple's marketing it top-notch, and so they deserver the market share they've won, but that's really the core of the issue.

Apple can't be denied their success, but it's frustrating, I think, to all the onlookers to see so many people buying Apple products just because Apple's marketing is powerful, and not necessarily because their products are worth buying.

I'd also like to add here that when I suggest that Apple's products may not be worth buying, I'm only really implying the same thing people have said above: that Apple's powerful marketing often steps over the line and starts using unimportant information to make things sound "revolutionary" when in fact to the end-user they're nothing. This 64bit stuff may well be the way forward. It might open doors to Apple down the line and make the world a better place in 10 years, but right now perhaps it's not a reason to buy a 5s, and perhaps Apple shouldn't using it in their current marketing to convince fans to remain loyal.

I'm also alluding to my personal opinion of Apple products: their hardware is top-notch, something that few can challenge or deny, but their software seems almost universally second rate. As if, unless you have the technical experise to arrange dual-boot, for example, or to install Android or WP on your iPhone hardware (!), OSx/iOS is something you must endure (often ignorantly) if you want the privilege of holding an iPhone or carrying around a MacBook Pro every day. I'd have a MacBook Pro and install Windows on it. UNfortunately I'm not in a position to afford a MacBook Pro. I also don't fancy contending with the unjustified keyboard differences, but that's largely superficial.

So I believe Apple's market share is justified, in part, by their hardware quality, and inflated considerably by their marketing prowess. Their success can't be denied, but their customer loyalty is frustrating to onlookers, I imagine mostly because it's their software that sucks and they seem to deserve to take a larger hit on that basis.

Edited by jubbbird, Oct 15 2013, 12:39pm :

I think you touched on something there, when you stated about reasons to defend their choice. That's part of the problem and mindset (not aimed at you, what you wrote was actually refreshing).

YOUR choice is YOUR choice. The only person you need to justify it to is yourself. You love Android? WP? iOS? That's great, but commenting on articles relating to such products shouldn't make you feel like you have to come up with a list of reasons why you do each time....

The tired argument that every Apple user is a blind sheep is just that, tired. A way for fanatical users of other platforms to explain away the loyalty shown to a brand. Perhaps, just a thought, people are loyal because they urm -like- the products? You know, it's their choice? Not because Apple sucked out their brains.... or they know nothing about technology. It's infuriating to hear that as the reason constantly.

People bandy around terms like iSheep and Crapple as if it makes them part of a grand revolution. As if using Android automatically makes you technologically elite. But bad news there -you cant have your cake and eat it. When you claim high market share, the 'common' people get hold of it too. So I think you'll find Android is enjoyed by far more technologically simple folk than iOS. In fact the majority of none-technical users will make that choice simply based on price -my sister did. Shes using a Galaxy S4 btw. Guess that makes her a total geek now.

Can anyone argue the fact that the launch and subsequent popularity of the iPhone changed the way we use mobile phones today?
They`ve carried on milking that cow but what company wouldn`t, it`s similar to Microsoft with their OS and Office suite and Google with search.
I personally don`t see why people get so attached to certain companies (not ecosystem wise) and feel the need to defend them or berate the competitors. Last time i checked it`s not a sport
Unless you have a vested interest!

Well, let me just tell you all why i don't like Apple. First, it's their users who are totally blind for what outside of the Apple world. Secondly, it's Apple who praises their ****s up into the skies when it is bad in alot of ways.

Let me just start by giving you some YouTube videos that explains in VERY good details on why iOS sucks while their iSheeps keep masturbating about how awesome and easy iOS is to use.

Ok, lets start with those 6 video clips.

1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMiY1kSTHZw

2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ayx4XsBaJBI

3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsGQ_xts_Gw

4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlPKVWv1WxU

5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5A4k1bDV0s

6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJRoGfvztaw

Those 6 videos here simply confirms that every iOS users who claim iOS is easier to use than Android are nothing more than a lying ******.

Here are both the iOS users and Apple praising iOS up in the sky on how easy and fantastic iOS is. YEAH RIGHT.

Now, let's move on.

Take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tQjE9h7jkA

And this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8XRtSGVByM

Now, lets move on to fragmentation on iOS and Android: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...23CF4F1FF5B0D9&index=10

Basicly, iOS is not that good as Apple and their iSheeps are saying it is. Now lets move on to some more newer videos from Armando.

This one here shows 100 things that Android can do that iOS 7 can't do: http://thedroideffect.com/100-...-still-cant-do-android-can/

It's pretty insane that an OS in 2013 lacks that insane amound of things compared to Android.

Lets see how it went when Armando actually went out and bought an iPhone 5S to use it for 30 days. Here is the first week: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhmEGduKup4

Here is the 2nd week where the bomb comes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j2FRpQEc28

While he was making those iPhone 5S 30 days challenge videos, he made some other videos about other things in iPhone 5S. One thing is about the Wi-Fi performance on the iPhone 5S as you can see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1lxlIafsvE and the second video about it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9_VCgLasYQ.

And lastly, lets talk about the web browser performance on the iPhone 5S. Take a look at this that shows that even an old Nexus 4 is smoother in the web browsing than the iPhone 5S is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY-KuPhC0Y0

So here you have it. Tons of videos to back me up on that iOS is far from being any good as the iOS sheeps and Apple says it is.

Have fun watching those videos. You wont come back and claims that iOS is easier and better to use than Android after watching those videos, so if you a hardcore Apple fan, then don't watch those movies, because it will make you cry because Apple have cheated you.

If I went to uni with an essay and only used one source to back up my argument id be laughed out of the room (and no i didnt look at all the videos)

I did chuckle when I glanced the 100 things ios cant do list and saw 'Flash websites'... all i could think was... who?

Is Flash still a thing? I dont think I visit any sites that I cant use on my iphone just as well...

stevan said,
Oh dear lord.......

At least you can come with some counter arguments on why those videos are wrong rather than acting like every iSheeps do when they can't counter argument something.

AdmiralRooster said,
If I went to uni with an essay and only used one source to back up my argument id be laughed out of the room (and no i didnt look at all the videos)

I did chuckle when I glanced the 100 things ios cant do list and saw 'Flash websites'... all i could think was... who?

Is Flash still a thing? I dont think I visit any sites that I cant use on my iphone just as well...


Flash is still available for those who want to use it. If you don't want to use it, no one is forcing you to use it then.

It's just an advantage over iOS no matter hoe you look at it.

Exynos said,

At least you can come with some counter arguments on why those videos are wrong rather than acting like every iSheeps do when they can't counter argument something.

Thanks for calling me an iSheep. Trolls always find a way to make themselves visible. Way to go buddy. It laughable and pathetic that you would go so far to post a bunch of youtube videos on this forum about how one operating system is better than the other one. I'm sure I could dig some up to counter that but that would be very childish.

You're on one hell of a crusade buddy. I am laughing straight at your face.

stevan said,

Thanks for calling me an iSheep. Trolls always find a way to make themselves visible. Way to go buddy. It laughable and pathetic that you would go so far to post a bunch of youtube videos on this forum about how one operating system is better than the other one. I'm sure I could dig some up to counter that but that would be very childish.

You're on one hell of a crusade buddy. I am laughing straight at your face.


The day you guys can start to back you arguments up with evidences and facts like i do now, the day you will be taken more serious.

But i'll guess that will never happens, because your meanings are more important than what the facts is, right?

Exynos said,

The day you guys can start to back you arguments up with evidences and facts like i do now, the day you will be taken more serious.

But the problem is that you back up your opinion with other people's opinions. The scary thing is that you're confusing said opinions for facts. Just because you've spent months posting links to the same videos over and over doesn't change that. Everything you posted is subjective.

Exynos said,

The day you guys can start to back you arguments up with evidences and facts like i do now, the day you will be taken more serious.

But i'll guess that will never happens, because your meanings are more important than what the facts is, right?

Seriously man, it's just laughable that you come here and post lists and youtube videos how one system is better than the other. It's like you're a kid arguing with yourself. Not even die hard apple fans are as pathetic as that. I have never seen those who you call iSheep posting stuff like that.

It's like you can't accept that every system has it's benefits and shortcomings and that either way users have choice. Your blindness makes you a fanboy. Yet that's what you call others.

Instead of digging up pointless videos on youtube to make myself look foolish, how about I dig up some of your posts and make you look like an idiot.

Relax, give it a break and step outside into the real world for a bit.

stevan said,

Seriously man, it's just laughable that you come here and post lists and youtube videos how one system is better than the other. It's like you're a kid arguing with yourself. Not even die hard apple fans are as pathetic as that. I have never seen those who you call iSheep posting stuff like that.

It's like you can't accept that every system has it's benefits and shortcomings and that either way users have choice. Your blindness makes you a fanboy. Yet that's what you call others.

Instead of digging up pointless videos on youtube to make myself look foolish, how about I dig up some of your posts and make you look like an idiot.

Relax, give it a break and step outside into the real world for a bit.


If those videos are making you so butthurt, then rather bring up some counter arguments to those videos that can show us all that Armando in his videos are wrong. You can't just say it's wrong without backing that up.

And i'm also happy to say that what Armando shows about iOS is how iOS works. There is no shortcuts on how you can get Dolphin Browser or any other e-mail applications to be default and open up with those instead of the default apps in iOS.

So care to give us some guides that shows how we can do things easier than what Armando does in iOS?

Oh bugger, i doubt it will come as there doesn't exist any other ways to go forward in iOS.

So your crying over those videos are moot.

Have a nice day.

omgben said,

But the problem is that you back up your opinion with other people's opinions. The scary thing is that you're confusing said opinions for facts. Just because you've spent months posting links to the same videos over and over doesn't change that. Everything you posted is subjective.


Well, as you don't get the point and on top of that doesn't know how iOS is working, it's pretty clear that you don't see what Armando in his videos are talking about.

I would rather see some counter arguments to what Armando does and are telling us about iOS in his videos rather than someone keep telling things without any evidences or facts to claim that up with.

Exynos said,

If those videos are making you so butthurt, then rather bring up some counter arguments to those videos that can show us all that Armando in his videos are wrong. You can't just say it's wrong without backing that up.

And i'm also happy to say that what Armando shows about iOS is how iOS works. There is no shortcuts on how you can get Dolphin Browser or any other e-mail applications to be default and open up with those instead of the default apps in iOS.

So care to give us some guides that shows how we can do things easier than what Armando does in iOS?

Oh bugger, i doubt it will come as there doesn't exist any other ways to go forward in iOS.

So your crying over those videos are moot.

Have a nice day.

Crying over videos? Holy crap man you're hopelessly lost...

Only a kid with no educational background would post youtube videos to backup his claim?

What's next, you going to tell us how flash and NFC are the game changers?

Haha you are being called on by several members about your posts and you still march on. Oh how awesome it is to come here and get some laughing material. Thank you.

Exynos said,

Well, as you don't get the point and on top of that doesn't know how iOS is working, it's pretty clear that you don't see what Armando in his videos are talking about.

I would rather see some counter arguments to what Armando does and are telling us about iOS in his videos rather than someone keep telling things without any evidences or facts to claim that up with.

Why should I be burdened with coming up with facts, when you have come up with none yourself?

You make the claim that it's a fact that iOS sucks compared to Android, and then you post a bunch of links to a guy who shares his experiences and opinions of why he thinks Android is better. I did not know that Armando spoke for the close to 7 billion people who inhabit this planet.

Take a look at Armando 100 list. He makes the claim that the iPhone 5s can't, "Disable background data per app when on mobile networks." You can do that in iOS 7 along with changing the system's font size. The iPhone 5s can't control a DSLR camera without root? Then tell me what I've been controlling my Canon with on stock iOS 7? (Hint, iPhone 5s). The other stuff is subjective. I got over widgets in 2002. I don't care, nor do I think the average Joe cares about running a web server or Ubuntu from their phone. NFC would be useless to me because there's no infrastructure where I live to support it.

Finally, in his browser comparison he claims that you can not have a good experience with Safari because you can't share with Google+. It's true that you can not share to Google+ from within Safari, but it's his opinion that it makes for a bad experience. It will not affect the people who do not use Google+.

You want to talk about how Apple users are blind to what's outside of Apple? Look at you.

omgben said,

Why should I be burdened with coming up with facts, when you have come up with none yourself?

You make the claim that it's a fact that iOS sucks compared to Android, and then you post a bunch of links to a guy who shares his experiences and opinions of why he thinks Android is better. I did not know that Armando spoke for the close to 7 billion people who inhabit this planet.

Take a look at Armando 100 list. He makes the claim that the iPhone 5s can't, "Disable background data per app when on mobile networks." You can do that in iOS 7 along with changing the system's font size. The iPhone 5s can't control a DSLR camera without root? Then tell me what I've been controlling my Canon with on stock iOS 7? (Hint, iPhone 5s). The other stuff is subjective. I got over widgets in 2002. I don't care, nor do I think the average Joe cares about running a web server or Ubuntu from their phone. NFC would be useless to me because there's no infrastructure where I live to support it.

Finally, in his browser comparison he claims that you can not have a good experience with Safari because you can't share with Google+. It's true that you can not share to Google+ from within Safari, but it's his opinion that it makes for a bad experience. It will not affect the people who do not use Google+.

You want to talk about how Apple users are blind to what's outside of Apple? Look at you.


I have come up with facts that you can't counterargument against, simply because you can't. You can't counterargument something that you can't do in a different way.

And would you care to explain why Armando in his videos is not taken as facts when they can't be done in different ways than he is showing us?

If it's not possible to do those things he are showing us in any other ways, then it's facts until he's proven wrong witch he haven't been yet.

He's not sharing his opinions, he's sharing how iOS is working. Remember that the guy owns an iPhone 5S and iPad3 to, so don't be so fast on claiming that's he's an Android fanboy.

It's still a bad experience by not having the ability to share with Google+ as alot of peoples are using it when you can do that everywhere else. And Google+ was just one example on what you can't do there.

When it's about the 'Disable background data per app when on mobile networks' and controlling a DSLR camera right from the iOS 7, then let me see the guide that shows us how you can do that then. If it's possible to do, then there will be guides about it on the internet.

stevan said,

Wow, you can call me names all you want but posting a meme about making fun of disabled people is just a new low.

You truly are pathetic.


It wasn't me who made that picture. I just came over it when i was searching for 'arguing on the internet' on Google and found it to fit you perfectly on how you are here.

Exynos said,

It wasn't me who made that picture. I just came over it when i was searching for 'arguing on the internet' on Google and found it to fit you perfectly on how you are here.

Based on how many people are constantly arguing against you, I'd say there's something wrong with what you're trying to prove. But I'm sure in your little world, you're right and we are iSheep.

And it's not about who made the picture, it's about who continues using it. It's clearly inappropriate and childish so I think you did a really goo job of proving what kind of person you are. How's that for a fact,

Exynos said,

I have come up with facts that you can't counterargument against, simply because you can't. You can't counterargument something that you can't do in a different way.

And would you care to explain why Armando in his videos is not taken as facts when they can't be done in different ways than he is showing us?

If it's not possible to do those things he are showing us in any other ways, then it's facts until he's proven wrong witch he haven't been yet.

You and I are talking about two different things. You're going on about how there are things that you can't do in iOS that you can in Android. Totally true. What I'm arguing is that you can't use those videos and links as fact that iOS is inferior when it's all subjective. Does the fact that you can set any browser that you want as default in Android mean that it's something that iOS can't do? Yes. Does it mean that Android is better? No. To a lot of people, Safari is just fine.

He's not sharing his opinions, he's sharing how iOS is working. Remember that the guy owns an iPhone 5S and iPad3 to, so don't be so fast on claiming that's he's an Android fanboy.

I never claimed that he was an Android fanboy. Can you please show me where I did? You're right, he shows how iOS works, but he also throws in his personal commentary on why he feels Android is better, so you're flat out wrong. He is sharing his opinion.


It's still a bad experience by not having the ability to share with Google+ as alot of peoples are using it when you can do that everywhere else. And Google+ was just one example on what you can't do there.

Again, it's yours and his opinion that it's a, "bad," experience because you can't share to Google+ from Safari/iOS. My point still stands. I think it is not a bad experience for people who couldn't care less about Google+. That's also the beauty of an app store. If you want a browser that can share to Google+, you can download and use Chrome. Also, if you're deeply rooted into Google's services and ecosystem, then the iPhone is not for you.


When it's about the 'Disable background data per app when on mobile networks' and controlling a DSLR camera right from the iOS 7, then let me see the guide that shows us how you can do that then. If it's possible to do, then there will be guides about it on the internet.

There are guides about it on the Internet...
In iOS 7, you can prevent apps from running in the background, and you can also prevent apps from using the cellular network. It even shows you how much data each app has used. You can do this by going to Settings > General > Background App refresh and Settings>Cellular. You can control a DSLR camera from your iPhone or iPad the same way you can on Android. Search the app store and get an adapter. DSLR control is not baked in to iOS, and from what I see it isn't in Android either, but Armando made the claim that you couldn't control one from an iPhone 5s when you can. Do I need to make a six part video about it, or do you get it?

Edited by benthebear, Oct 15 2013, 4:13pm :

stevan said,

Based on how many people are constantly arguing against you, I'd say there's something wrong with what you're trying to prove. But I'm sure in your little world, you're right and we are iSheep.

And it's not about who made the picture, it's about who continues using it. It's clearly inappropriate and childish so I think you did a really goo job of proving what kind of person you are. How's that for a fact,


How is it for a fact that it's only the iSheeps here that are trying all they can to defend Apple from this at all costs?

Doesn't that says enough really?

It's been proved times after times that iOS is BAD in alot of ways. And still, the iSheeps are trying to get us to believe something else by praising it by how they believe things is rather than prooving the arguments by hard facts.

Exynos said,

How is it for a fact that it's only the iSheeps here that are trying all they can to defend Apple from this at all costs?

Doesn't that says enough really?

It's been proved times after times that iOS is BAD in alot of ways. And still, the iSheeps are trying to get us to believe something else by praising it by how they believe things is rather than prooving the arguments by hard facts.

I don't see anyone defending anything here. I have yet to defend ios in this argument. I'm just here to show how ridiculous you look for constantly attacking it.

Defending something you like is a lot different than attacking something you don't use. It's like saying "apple constantly says they invent things". They never do yet people that attack them constantly bring this up.

The truth is, android fanboys are extremely confused between facts and opinions. You are a prime example of that.

Why are you still posting though? You've been put in your place and called out on your inappropriate posts constantly yet you still come out and call people isheep.

stevan said,

I don't see anyone defending anything here. I have yet to defend ios in this argument. I'm just here to show how ridiculous you look for constantly attacking it.

Defending something you like is a lot different than attacking something you don't use. It's like saying "apple constantly says they invent things". They never do yet people that attack them constantly bring this up.

The truth is, android fanboys are extremely confused between facts and opinions. You are a prime example of that.

Why are you still posting though? You've been put in your place and called out on your inappropriate posts constantly yet you still come out and call people isheep.


I'm attacking iOS because i have good evidences and facts to do so.

You on the other hand just claim stuffs without even backing it up at all with something.

No, we Android users actually are more into the technical stuffs and what the different things in the OS'es are over the iOS users, as the iOS users needs to be hold in their hands while using the iOS. The majority of the iOS users barly knows what POP or WAP stands for. So how can you claim that we don't know what we are talking about when we Android users are the hardcore geeks?

I call someone for iSheeps in the same way as someone calls us Android users for Fandroids. HTFU and live with it.

Exynos said,

How is it for a fact that it's only the iSheeps here that are trying all they can to defend Apple from this at all costs?

Doesn't that says enough really?

It's been proved times after times that iOS is BAD in alot of ways. And still, the iSheeps are trying to get us to believe something else by praising it by how they believe things is rather than prooving the arguments by hard facts.

I've been pretty civil in our discussion, so I kind of expect that in return, but since you've resorted to referring to me as an iSheep tells me that I've struck a nerve. You've been backed into a corner. I get it.

I'm not defending Apple at all cost, nor am I praising iOS. You've been sharing your opinion that you think iOS is bad, and you've been posting links to Armando's reviews for months now. You have every right to think that iOS sucks, but you can not state that your opinion is fact, and then link to a guy who shares his opinions on why he thinks iOS is bad as PROOF that iOS is bad then ridicule people who point this out. That's been my argument this whole time. If this were a conversation about Fords and Chevys... Hell, you can make it about anything you want, and I will still come in here to correct your false statements, or the fasle statements made by the guy who's forming your opinion for you.

Exynos said,

I'm attacking iOS because i have good evidences and facts to do so.

You on the other hand just claim stuffs without even backing it up at all with something.

No, we Android users actually are more into the technical stuffs and what the different things in the OS'es are over the iOS users, as the iOS users needs to be hold in their hands while using the iOS. The majority of the iOS users barly knows what POP or WAP stands for. So how can you claim that we don't know what we are talking about when we Android users are the hardcore geeks?

I call someone for iSheeps in the same way as someone calls us Android users for Fandroids. HTFU and live with it.

I think most android users would not associate themselves with a fool like you. Why do you think no one is backing you up?

You have no facts, just opinions from some guy on youtube whose videos you have been putting here for a while now.

And the rest of the Neowin laughs at you.

omgben said,

You and I are talking about two different things. You're going on about how there are things that you can't do in iOS that you can in Android. Totally true. What I'm arguing is that you can't use those videos and links as fact that iOS is inferior when it's all subjective. Does the fact that you can set any browser that you want as default in Android mean that it's something that iOS can't do? Yes. Does it mean that Android is better? No. To a lot of people, Safari is just fine.


If those videos shows how iOS is working, then why can't i use them as evidences on how bad iOS is over Android then?

If that's how iOS is working, then i'm free to use that as evidences. If we can't use that as evidences against iOS, then what can we use as evidences against iOS then?

Nothing with be the word here, thus you are talking it away and want's us to not post anything bad about the OS you loves so much.

omgben said,

I never claimed that he was an Android fanboy. Can you please show me where I did? You're right, he shows how iOS works, but he also throws in his personal commentary on why he feels Android is better, so you're flat out wrong. He is sharing his opinion.


He's not an Android fanboy as he owns several iOS products. He's just showing how iOS works and how inferior it is to Android that can do things much easier and much much faster. Thus Android is more userfriendly as he shows.

omgben said,

Again, it's yours and his opinion that it's a, "bad," experience because you can't share to Google+ from Safari/iOS. My point still stands. I think it is not a bad experience for people who couldn't care less about Google+. That's also the beauty of an app store. If you want a browser that can share to Google+, you can download and use Chrome. Also, if you're deeply rooted into Google's services and ecosystem, then the iPhone is not for you.


Still doesn't matter. It's better to HAVE it there for those who want's to use it. If it's not there, then it's just a prime example of a bad user experience and a good example that Apple gives a f**k about their users.

And not only that, but as one of the Web surfing performance on iPhone 5S video from Armando shows, then Chrome is extremely bad on iOS 7 as it lags badly there. Why do we have to use a browser that lags much more just to be able to share to Google+ or other places?

Things like this is so basic that it should have been in iOS 7 out of the box.

omgben said,

There are guides about it on the Internet...
In iOS 7, you can prevent apps from running in the background, and you can also prevent apps from using the cellular network. It even shows you how much data each app has used. You can do this by going to Settings > General > Background App refresh and Settings>Cellular. You can control a DSLR camera from your iPhone or iPad the same way you can on Android. Search the app store and get an adapter. DSLR control is not baked in to iOS, and from what I see it isn't in Android either, but Armando made the claim that you couldn't control one from an iPhone 5s when you can. Do I need to make a six part video about it, or do you get it?


Then find me those guides then. It's your job to find those guides to me and prove it to me. Thank you very much.

Exynos said,

If those videos shows how iOS is working, then why can't i use them as evidences on how bad iOS is over Android then?

There's no problem is saying, "Hey, I think iOS is bad. Here are some demo videos to show why." I can tell by your writing that there maybe some sort of language barrier that I'm having difficulty overcoming, but what I'm saying is, you can't sit there and say Android is better than iOS PERIOD because as I've repeatedly said, what you're presenting as proof is all subjective. It's not true depending on who you ask.


Nothing with be the word here, thus you are talking it away and want's us to not post anything bad about the OS you loves so much.

Who said anything about love? Post all you want about iOS, man but please at least be real about it. It all boils down to you saying, "Hey, this is a fact," when it's an opinion. I don't care what label is on the phone.


He's not an Android fanboy as he owns several iOS products. He's just showing how iOS works and how inferior it is to Android that can do things much easier and much much faster. Thus Android is more userfriendly as he shows.

For the last time, I never said or implied that he was an Android fanboy. That's you saying that. See what I mean about language barrier? See what stevan was saying about people claiming stuff that was never claimed? The videos show how iOS is inferior and Android is more user friendly to you and the people who share your opinion. Again, it doesn't matter to someone who just.doesn't.care. I can change ever icon on my Android work phone (See, I'm not an Apple fanboy because I use Android according to your logic), but does that make it better than my personal phone which is a 5s? No. Both are running stock themes with a wallpaper I got online. I just don't care about, "superior," features like that or wireless charging, or SSHing into something.


Still doesn't matter. It's better to HAVE it there for those who want's to use it. If it's not there, then it's just a prime example of a bad user experience and a good example that Apple gives a f**k about their users.

Why stop with Google+? Apple should add support for every B-Team, C-Team, and D-Team social network then. Let's also knock Android because I can't save to Skydrive right out of the box. But if you desperately want to share to Google+, the Google+ app makes it pretty easy for you to do. That's what the app store is for...so the OS doesn't have to bake everything in. Also, there's that thing about Google and Apple hating each other.


Then find me those guides then. It's your job to find those guides to me and prove it to me. Thank you very much.

Is your Google broken? Is the search widget no longer on your home screen? I just gave you step by step instructions on how to access the features that Armondo claims do not exist. But since you asked...


Here that thing about turning off cellular data per app: http://howto.cnet.com/8301-113...ing-cellular-data-on-ios-7/
Here's how you can control a DSLR from an iOS device: http://www.camranger.com/features/
Here's how you can control a DSLR from Android to show how similar they are and not baked into the OS: http://howto.cnet.com/8301-113...ur-android-phone-or-tablet/

So the question is...how are you going to spin your way out of this?

Edited by benthebear, Oct 15 2013, 5:03pm :

benthebear said,

There's no problem is saying, "Hey, I think iOS is bad. Here are some demo videos to show why." I can tell by your writing that there maybe some sort of language barrier that I'm having difficulty overcoming, but what I'm saying is, you can't sit there and say Android is better than iOS PERIOD because as I've repeatedly said, what you're presenting as proof is all subjective. It's not true depending on who you ask.

I have by no means really said that Android is better than iOS overall. I have said that the user experience in Android makes iOS's user experience to look like a joke, also that the user experience in Android is better than the user experience in iOS.

benthebear said,

Who said anything about love? Post all you want about iOS, man but please at least be real about it. It all boils down to you saying, "Hey, this is a fact," when it's an opinion. I don't care what label is on the phone.

What Armando shows about iOS on how it works is NOT opinions. It's the hard facts about how iOS works. This is something you can't deny as you can't give counterarguments against what he says about iOS there.

Sure, he might have opinions on different things on how he use things, but at the same time doesn't change the fact about how iOS works.

Didn't you see the first week of Armando's 30 days challenge with the iPhone 5S?

He was actually praising the Google apps on iOS as they was working better for him there. Maybe that's an opinion to or?

No, it's not an opinion as it's a fact that some of the Google apps actually are better on iOS than it is on Android. Happy now?

benthebear said,

For the last time, I never said or implied that he was an Android fanboy. That's you saying that. See what I mean about language barrier? See what stevan was saying about people claiming stuff that was never claimed? The videos show how iOS is inferior and Android is more user friendly to you and the people who share your opinion. Again, it doesn't matter to someone who just.doesn't.care. I can change ever icon on my Android work phone (See, I'm not an Apple fanboy because I use Android according to your logic), but does that make it better than my personal phone which is a 5s? No. Both are running stock themes with a wallpaper I got online. I just don't care about, "superior," features like that or wireless charging, or SSHing into something.

No, if one thing takes 2 steps to do in Android while it takes 6 steps in iOS, then Android is more user friendly as things are easier to do.

If Apple deny you to share your ideas and stuffs to Google+ and other places like that out of the box, it's a bad user experience as alot of peoples are using Google+.

So again, what he are saying about iOS is not opinions, it's a fact. It's a fact until someone can prove it not to be right.

benthebear said,

Why stop with Google+? Apple should add support for every B-Team, C-Team, and D-Team social network then. Let's also knock Android because I can't save to Skydrive right out of the box. But if you desperately want to share to Google+, the Google+ app makes it pretty easy for you to do. That's what the app store is for...so the OS doesn't have to bake everything in. Also, there's that thing about Google and Apple hating each other.

The argument of 'there is an app for that' is starting to get very old now. Just because there is an app for something it doesn't mean Apple have to handicap and take away all kinds of usefull features that everyone can use in iOS.

Yeah, there is camera apps on AppStore to, should Apple just remove it's default camera apps just because of it?

benthebear said,

Is your Google broken? Is the search widget no longer on your home screen? I just gave you step by step instructions on how to access the features that Armondo claims do not exist. But since you asked...

Are you lazy?

When you claim something, it's your work of proving what you are saying. Like me, when i say the iOS user experience is bad, i'm not just saying it without proving my arguments. So, don't be lazy and expect everyone to do you job.

benthebear said,

Here that thing about turning off cellular data per app: http://howto.cnet.com/8301-113...ing-cellular-data-on-ios-7/
Here's how you can control a DSLR from an iOS device: http://www.camranger.com/features/
Here's how you can control a DSLR from Android to show how similar they are and not baked into the OS: http://howto.cnet.com/8301-113...ur-android-phone-or-tablet/

So the question is...how are you going to spin your way out of this?


So, before you can control a DSLR camera on iOS, you have to buy an expensive controller?

To me that sounds kinda dumb and a bit difficult to do rather than just installing an app on any Android devices to controll a DSLR camera right away from the phones.

Again, you just proves that iOS is making things harder for peoples to do. You can't control a DSLR camera right away from any iOS devices directly without a damn controller. So Armando is right in his argument there.

So let me ask you this question instead...how are you going to spin your way out of this?

Edited by Exynos, Oct 16 2013, 8:24am :

From the website linking to DSLRremote you just linked to:

"Using DSLR Remote your camera can, depending on its technical capabilities, be controlled in two different ways. Either the smartphone in conjunction with DSLR Remote operates as an infrared remote control or as a cable release. In either case you will need a small, inexpensive and easy to built hardware, which is to be connected to the smartphones/tablets audio output."

Notice the part where it says you need to BUILD HARDWARE?!?!?!?!?!?

stevan said,

From the website linking to DSLRremote you just linked to:

"Using DSLR Remote your camera can, depending on its technical capabilities, be controlled in two different ways. Either the smartphone in conjunction with DSLR Remote operates as an infrared remote control or as a cable release. In either case you will need a small, inexpensive and easy to built hardware, which is to be connected to the smartphones/tablets audio output."

Notice the part where it says you need to BUILD HARDWARE?!?!?!?!?!?


But you still ignored the DSLR Controller (BETA) application?

It can do it with just a normal USB cable that everyone have.

How are these videos proof iOS is worse? I don't have a need for flash. I don't have a need for a different browser, I don't have a need to download some random app that is not on the app store. I don't have a need to use NFC.

What I DO have a need for is access to all my iTunes content. Can Android do this (legally)? Can I sync my iCloud content with an Android device? Can I use the Garageband app on an Android device?

What you are providing here are OPINIONS. I do not care one bit about anything you listed. How does that still make iOS suck?

People's needs and opinions are different.

This is like a Coke vs Pepsi argument. Heavy metal vs Country.

TO ME (opinion here, just like you are saying), android is a worse platform. I need access to all my iCloud and iTunes content. Therefore, iOS and Apple receives my appreciation and usage.

Exynos said,

But you still ignored the DSLR Controller (BETA) application?

It can do it with just a normal USB cable that everyone have.

Which I can do with my iphone over wifi or also with a USB cable. So fail!

Please stop showing these videos from youtube from some guy voicing his opinion. People are making fun of you and no one is backing you up. It's a fact!

xWhiplash said,
How are these videos proof iOS is worse? I don't have a need for flash. I don't have a need for a different browser, I don't have a need to download some random app that is not on the app store. I don't have a need to use NFC.

What I DO have a need for is access to all my iTunes content. Can Android do this (legally)? Can I sync my iCloud content with an Android device? Can I use the Garageband app on an Android device?

What you are providing here are OPINIONS. I do not care one bit about anything you listed. How does that still make iOS suck?

People's needs and opinions are different.

This is like a Coke vs Pepsi argument. Heavy metal vs Country.

TO ME (opinion here, just like you are saying), android is a worse platform. I need access to all my iCloud and iTunes content. Therefore, iOS and Apple receives my appreciation and usage.


What you don't want to use have nothing to do with what iOS lack over Android as the link i provided shows.

iOS 7 are still missing over 100 things over Android no matter how you use iOS.

stevan said,

Which I can do with my iphone over wifi or also with a USB cable. So fail!

Please stop showing these videos from youtube from some guy voicing his opinion. People are making fun of you and no one is backing you up. It's a fact!


And witch iOS app lets you do it via a single cable?

Oh also, stop being butthurt that Armando shows why iOS is bad. What he shows is a truth to the contrary is proven, witch haven't happened yet.

Then what is the point of having different operating systems.

Does iOS do EVERY SINGLE THING Android does? No.

Does Windows do EVERY SINGLE THING OS X does? No

You use what you want to use. Name one of those "100 missing features" that is a necessity please.

You are forgetting something here, Android does not do things that iOS does not. Therefore Android is to blame too.

xWhiplash said,
Then what is the point of having different operating systems.

Does iOS do EVERY SINGLE THING Android does? No.

Does Windows do EVERY SINGLE THING OS X does? No

You use what you want to use. Name one of those "100 missing features" that is a necessity please.

You are forgetting something here, Android does not do things that iOS does not. Therefore Android is to blame too.


Armando just shows what iOS is lacking over Android.

And fyi, Armando is soon going to do a 30 days challenge test of a Windows Phone 8 smartphone, so be prepeared to see an Android vs iOS vs Windows Phone comparsion soon.

Oh, i'm pretty sure you you say Armando is just talking rubbish. But then, are he talking rubbish when he are praising the iPad here?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjhufve38r0

Suuuuure, if you think he's talking nonsense, then he's for sure talking nonsense about the iPad then, right?

He's even pointing out 10 things he doesn't like with Android here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAslrg10Jps

Yup, he's for sure talking nonsense.

EDIT: This reply is also meant for stevan.

Again, how is this any different than anything else?

What about Windows, OS X, all Linux distros? Do every one of those do EXACTLY THE SAME THING as the others?

Okay, now what about Android not being able to connect to my iTunes content and iCloud? See, iOS does things Android cannot either.

Exynos said,

And witch iOS app lets you do it via a single cable?

Oh also, stop being butthurt that Armando shows why iOS is bad. What he shows is a truth to the contrary is proven, witch haven't happened yet.

CamRanger, DSLR Control are two that come off top my head. There are countless ones.

Do you even know what you're talking about? No one here is but hurt about anything, we are just showing you how stupid you are for quoting youtube videos. Which in the end are just opinions of some guy.

He can praise the ipad all he wants but everything he states is subjective. You must be really young not to get this.

xWhiplash said,
Again, how is this any different than anything else?

What about Windows, OS X, all Linux distros? Do every one of those do EXACTLY THE SAME THING as the others?

Okay, now what about Android not being able to connect to my iTunes content and iCloud? See, iOS does things Android cannot either.


The point is not that the OS'es have to be the same, the point is that when an OS like iOS 7 is lacking so much, it deserves to get flamed every day. We are in 2013 where smartphones are way more advanced than they was in 2008-2009.

Oh also, no one in their right minds would use a ****ty program like iTunes on a Windows computer anyways, so that last argument of yours doesn't works pal :-)

I'll rather use Winamp over iTunes for music stuffs and i also use Googles cloud services like i have out of the box with an Android phone. So why would we need iTunes and iCloud for Android phones when there is much better alternatives to Android out there?

stevan said,

CamRanger, DSLR Control are two that come off top my head. There are countless ones.

Do you even know what you're talking about? No one here is but hurt about anything, we are just showing you how stupid you are for quoting youtube videos. Which in the end are just opinions of some guy.

He can praise the ipad all he wants but everything he states is subjective. You must be really young not to get this.


Again, you mix opinions with what the facts is. Armando have shown us how iOS works and why it's way harder to use over Android. If that's opinions, then i want to hear your opinions on how you can do it easier to start Dolphin Browser right away when you click on a hyperlink in an e-mail like he did show that was impossible.

I'm happily gonna wait for your magic tricks here that does wonder for that. Or actually, no, i'm not gonna wait on that, because what Armando did show about that, was the hard bloody facts. So you can't counter it. It's that simple.

Keep believing that what Armando says is opinions while you can't even counter his opinions then, witch makes it more of a fact if you can't counterargument against it.

Just because you don't like what he shows and because you haven't woken up yet to actually realize what he's showing you, then i'm afraid i'm not gonna waste my time with peoples that don't have other intentions than just trolling.

Exynos said,

Again, you mix opinions with what the facts is. Armando have shown us how iOS works and why it's way harder to use over Android. If that's opinions, then i want to hear your opinions on how you can do it easier to start Dolphin Browser right away when you click on a hyperlink in an e-mail like he did show that was impossible.

I'm happily gonna wait for your magic tricks here that does wonder for that.

Keep believing that what Armando says is opinions while you can't even counter his opinions then, witch makes it more of a fact if you can't counterargument against it.

Just because you don't like what he shows and because you haven't woken up yet to actually realize what he's showing you, then i'm afraid i'm not gonna waste my time with peoples that don't have other intentions than just trolling.

What do you mean I can't counter his opinions when I just proved you wrong twice about the camera argument and ios?

Exynos said,

The point is not that the OS'es have to be the same, the point is that when an OS like iOS 7 is lacking so much, it deserves to get flamed every day. We are in 2013 where smartphones are way more advanced than they was in 2008-2009.

Oh also, no one in their right minds would use a ****ty program like iTunes on a Windows computer anyways, so that last argument of yours doesn't works pal :-)

I'll rather use Winamp over iTunes for music stuffs and i also use Googles cloud services like i have out of the box with an Android phone. So why would we need iTunes and iCloud for Android phones when there is much better alternatives to Android out there?

You said it yourself, "you would rather use..."

Well itunes works just fine on my windows pc and that's how I rent my tv shows. It's what I use. So can you ask Armando how I can use itunes with an android phone? That's right, you can't!

stevan said,

What do you mean I can't counter his opinions when I just proved you wrong twice about the camera argument and ios?


CamRanger: http://www.camranger.com/

You can't run it without a dongle or a controller. Not only that, but that controller cost the amazing 299 dollar. LOLS.

And can you give me the link to the DSLR Control app you are talking about?

All you need to do this on an Android phone is a USB cable like everyone have.

stevan said,

You said it yourself, "you would rather use..."

Well itunes works just fine on my windows pc and that's how I rent my tv shows. It's what I use. So can you ask Armando how I can use itunes with an android phone? That's right, you can't!


Let me do the work for Armando here.

https://play.google.com/store/...tunes.android.app&hl=no

http://howto.cnet.com/8301-113...o-sync-itunes-with-android/

http://www.doubletwist.com/

http://www.tunesync.com/index.php

There are basicly tons of ways to get your iTunes stuffs to your Android device.

Yes, there's an app for that as the usual iPhone user used to say.

Oh so I have to download additional software? Not out of the box? What about itunes cloud? Additional software for that? See the double standard.

And I spent 5 minutes on that guys youtube page and his google+ page and he's being torn apart worse than you are here.

Something tells me you two are same person and you are here just to get hits on the youtube page.

A couple guys did a great job of pointing out things that he messed up badly on bc he doesn't know how to use iOs, which he says he does.

stevan said,
Oh so I have to download additional software? Not out of the box? What about itunes cloud? Additional software for that? See the double standard.

And I spent 5 minutes on that guys youtube page and his google+ page and he's being torn apart worse than you are here.

Something tells me you two are same person and you are here just to get hits on the youtube page.

A couple guys did a great job of pointing out things that he messed up badly on bc he doesn't know how to use iOs, which he says he does.


Ofc you have to download a software to be able to do it. Does that mean it's not possible to do on Android as you claim?

You knows pretty well why he's getting hammered on his Google+ and YouTube page, because he's showing everyone what the iOS fanboys'es doesn't want everyone to know about iOS.

Armando proves every users that claims that iOS is easier to use than Android to be a blind Apple fanboy.

And you wonder why the Apple fanboys'es are not happy with that?

Good almighty.

Now, let go back to this list: http://thedroideffect.com/100-...-still-cant-do-android-can/

Tell me what in that list that is not right (don't tell me that an iPhone or iPad can use a DSLR Controller with just a normal cable, because it can't) and i will respond back to you and tell you why those points you are pointing out from that list actually are 100% right and legit.

EDIT: Just to make a point, Armando just made a response video to those Apple crybabies as he clealy points out in the start of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9_VCgLasYQ

Why do you think he calls them for crybabies?

Go figure.

Edited by Exynos, Oct 16 2013, 7:53pm :

Editorial: Please, give Apple a break

awww. how sweet. crocodile's tears. from neowin no less. pardon me while i hurl. bleeeeearrrrgh.

Spicoli said,
Really Apple has been consistently a failure except for finally hitting on one product.

Like the iPod? Or the iPhone? Or the iPad? Which one product?

Joswin said,

Like the iPod? Or the iPhone? Or the iPad? Which one product?

They're all variations of the same thing but it's pretty much only the iPhone that's made them successful. The laptop and desktop market is just sad after all these decades.

Spicoli said,

They're all variations of the same thing but it's pretty much only the iPhone that's made them successful.

Urm no. That would have been the iPod.... Oh but iPod, iPhone and iPad are just 'variations' of the same thing? Can't wait to hear your analysis on the rest of the tech industry then, as by extension everything out there is just a variation of the same thing.

This world you live in where Apple is a failure and every other company churns out brand spanking new products all of the time...I would like to visit it one day...seems interesting...

virtorio said,
You know they sell a whole lot of Macs right (usually around four million per quarter). Not being #1 doesn't mean you're a failure.

Windows Phone is considered a failure after having more market share in 3 year than MacOS/OS X in 30+.

omgben said,
This world you live in where Apple is a failure and every other company churns out brand spanking new products all of the time...I would like to visit it one day...seems interesting...

He doesn't reply when being called on or put in his place. He only comes out trolling and then rightfully put in his place by people more educated than him. It's just a circle.

I don't consider Windows Phone a failure.
And, your years don't work, OS X was a whole new platform, just like Windows Phone (otherwise you should have started with Windows Mobile, which came out 13 years ago).

BajiRav said,

Windows Phone is considered a failure after having more market share in 3 year than MacOS/OS X in 30+.

Since when is 3 > 7?

I get what point you're trying to make, but the problem with focusing only on market share is that you end up focusing on one battle in a series of many battles that make up the smartphone war. Look at revenue. If you're going to compare OS X to Windows Phone 8, which is silly to begin with, what device generates more revenue, Macs or Windows Phones? What about profit margins? See, there are other things to look at.

I don't think Windows Phone is failing. It's a solid platform, but it's taking a while to gain traction, and it's kind of bad that most of Windows Phone's eggs are in Nokia's basket. What I do find ironic though is I see people on Neowin point out that the Mac is a failure because of its small market share, and then in another thread they'll sing praises about Windows Phone and how its 3ish% global market share is a great thing. Read: Spicoli.

stevan said,

He doesn't reply when being called on or put in his place. He only comes out trolling and then rightfully put in his place by people more educated than him. It's just a circle.

Figured as much. You can't slam Apple with coming out with, "variations," when the other players also come out with variation or improvements on existing technology, and some are even in response to what Apple's going. All of the major players are trying to push their version of an oversize phone.

Yeah, the iPhone has made Apple uber successful recently, but it's not the only reason for Apple's success. The Macs, iPad, and iPod + iTunes have certainly helped, along with their high customer satisfaction, and legions of developers that help make the platform great for many.

virtorio said,
I don't consider Windows Phone a failure.
And, your years don't work, OS X was a whole new platform, just like Windows Phone (otherwise you should have started with Windows Mobile, which came out 13 years ago).

My years work because I wrote MacOS/OS X
I don't consider either platforms a failure just pointing out the obvious flaw in argument (from both sides).

having an iphone 4s, i am really happy with ios ecosystem. you dont know how good an iphone is until u use it on a daily basis, u would appreciate how much better the overall experience is, i am certainly not a fanboy just saying how i feel

fardeen said,
having an iphone 4s, i am really happy with ios ecosystem. you dont know how good an iphone is until u use it on a daily basis, u would appreciate how much better the overall experience is, i am certainly not a fanboy just saying how i feel

You just say that because you haven't tried Android and it's ecosystem.

Look at my earlier post here in the comment section. It gives you full detailt on why iOS is far from being good.

Is apple perfect? No. But I have used android and iOS regularly, and I prefer iOS. And no, I'm definitely not idiotic when it comes to technology, I'm a technical analyst for the university I attend.

Exynos said,
Look at my earlier post here in the comment section. It gives you full detailt on why iOS is far from being good.

Let's hope you're getting paid for that...

Heh, apple gets all the breaks they need from the media and the David Pogues and Mossberg's of the world...and noe neowin. I can think of many other companies that are treated worse, including MSFT, Intel, AMD. No, there is no mercy for anybody. Apple already gets all of it...and maybe people simply react to that. They can only bear so much apple cheer leading from the bloggers

Good article!

Only think I disagree with is the mention that many teens use Apple stuff, in my experience the mail market is non-geek over 30s. At least that's what the situation is where I live.

I also agree with the comments above about Apple's marketing. It's disgusting to see just how much of a lemming it really tries to make out of consumers with the amount of fake "schtuff" Apple spouts off.

Futurama covered it well when they did the episode about the "eyePhone", and by the end, everyone was literally a zombie.

The key is don't be a fanboy. Apple, Microsoft & Google should face criticism and ridicule in equal measure when they mess up and praise when they do great.

The problem is that you yourself don't decide whether you are to be a "fanboy". Others put that label on you. This is the problem with trolling sometimes going overboard here.

If you are rationally argumenting in Apple's favor at some point at the cost of an Android phone or whatever, you're likely to be called an "Apple fanboy" by some butthurt poster.

Speaking of this, it's interesting how the landscape has changed and how taboo it is to criticize some brands, but how kosher it is to do so with others. Think about it. People will look at an Android user complaining about Apple much differently than an Apple user complaining about Android.

What can I say? They make schtuff for tech wanna-be hipsters. If you love being told what to do, then by all means, buy an Apple device. If you'd like more freedom from the hand-holding, and the reality distortion fields, Apple is not the company to buy from. There's no innovation there, Mac OSX and iOS development is relatively static. The UX has remained essentially the same since their incarnation. But yet, somehow, we're supposed to believe this is amazing?

Also, there is something to be said about the egos of Apple users, but that's left for another day.

Edited by Dot Matrix, Oct 15 2013, 10:29am :

OS X and iOS development is relatively static?

I can understand this confusion coming from a Windows user, since these are regularly tormented by massive API changes from Microsoft. If it's not about the .NET platform, it's about a new WPF platform, Silverlight and the following abandoning of Silverlight, WinRT... A Windows developer would be used to such changes. It would be "progress".

The problem with Microsoft is however that they often drive through new products and strategies with new API's, rather than revising an existing, well-designed API to cover the new product. There's nothing saying that the regular .NET Framework can't just be extended to cover touch better. There's no real *need* for WinRT. However, new API's are often abused by Microsoft in order to require new product purchases. You can't develop for WinRT easily with Microsoft Visual Studio 2008, now can you? Despite WinRT being announced just three years later. Also, those courses and tasty, new certifications...

This is largely bull...

OS X, however, is a stable foundation on which new technologies are added to, and maybe a Windows developer would think this causes much grief among the OS X developers. "So bloated!" No! It's componentized. You don't need to use more components of OS X than you're compiling for. And it's all coherent. And the developers learning OS X don't need to learn a whole new development platform just to use Grand Central Dispatch or OpenCL, or other such "non-innovations" by Apple.

Also, as for...

"They make schtuff for tech wanna-be hipsters."

I wouldn't even know where to begin. Do you even know how much OS X is used in the software industry and media production? Hipsters? No, they make a living from it. Sure, "wannabe hipsters" use Apple products as well, but so do users of Nokia. It's arguably more "hip" nowadays anyway to be a "Windows Phone deviant", and Micronokia ads surely play on how hip their products are lately. iPhone? Nah, mostly mainstream although still called "hip" for whatever reason. Hip? Yes, in 2008 it was.

Northgrove said,
OS X and iOS development is relatively static?

.....


just download visual studio express. Its free, lets you develop modern apps, and really the .net API is stable enough that the learning curve is low.

and re:pro apps, apple got out of the pro app arena and made it very clear when they released fcpx.

greenwizard88 said,

and re:pro apps, apple got out of the pro app arena and made it very clear when they released fcpx.

They've improved Final Cut Pro X a lot since it's launch (which was pretty abysmal) and the latest version of Logic has been received well by "pro" users, so no, they've not opted out of the Pro market.

Dot Matrix said,
What can I say? They make schtuff for tech wanna-be hipsters.

The same hipsters that Microsoft, Samsung, and just about every company in the world is trying to market/cater to....

If you love being told what to do, then by all means, buy an Apple device. If you'd like more freedom from the hand-holding, and the reality distortion fields, Apple is not the company to buy from.

Then what is the company to buy from? Microsoft? Yes because Windows RT and Windows Phone gives you much more freedom...

Also, there is something to be said about the egos of Apple users, but that's left for another day.

I guess there are no mirrors where you live? This statement is ironic coming from a man with a Windows avatar who defends Windows 8 at every turn.

omgben said,

The same hipsters that Microsoft, Samsung, and just about every company in the world is trying to market/cater to....

Then what is the company to buy from? Microsoft? Yes because Windows RT and Windows Phone gives you much more freedom...

I guess there are no mirrors where you live? This statement is ironic coming from a man with a Windows avatar who defends Windows 8 at every turn.

Windows and Windows Phone are the perfect operating system. They're a middle ground between the Walled Garden (Apple), and trash-infested, third party all the things, run down city center (Android).

Dot Matrix said,
Windows and Windows Phone are the perfect operating system.

I would expect nothing less from a perfect company like Microsoft.

I haven't any problem with people chosing Apple, and I could consider it's their right choice. Sometimes, I haven't any problem even with some Apple products, cause I think there's good thing in. Maybe I have problems more with some Apple users or fanboys. I have a problem with the exclusive, centric point of view these people get purchasing and using Apple Products. It makes them looking everything else like crap. It makes them looking Apple as the origin of all computing evolution (that's false, even if Apple is very successful in some markets, and even if Apple pushed some - not all - at an higher level). When I listen people saying Apple invents mouse, GUI, Music player or even smartphone, I can't agree. It's historical shortcuts wich are a real truth distortion. So I think Apple, with its brand cult, responsible for a large part.
So when every media is talking Apple as the more innovative and when they talk something only after or with Apple entering on this market, I completely disagree... So when I think some Apple product are really not innovative or doesn't earn this mediatic level treatment, No I don't want to give Apple a breack.

I shut off with "Many see them as an evil corporation"... Really? I have no desire to care about the opinions of people who judge a company as being "evil". It's a company, they aim to make money.

The reason why I hate Apple is because their customers are mostly retards and think that I would be better off getting a Mac. They don't see in actual fact that I am better at computers/tech than them (despite knowing that I'm a programmer, etc) and therefore I am capable of making my own decision on this matter. It's quite simple, really. We're all grown ups here so just stfu and let me use what I want.

I know I'm being hugely over generalising, but this is my experience and I hate it when people think they can tell me what computer I should be using when I'm the expert compared to them. All mac fags I've met are full computer retards or musicians/etc. The latter is fine because there are some excellent Mac only audio hardware/software.

Don't get me wrong - I have no issue with the product but it's rather down to the attitude of Apple's customers and Apple themselves. They queue up in tents to get the latest, they want things to 'just werk', have this superiority complex and don't stfu.

OP, you are the problem.

" It's hard to imagine a world where their innovations aren't present, and their devices aren't everywhere you look."

Not really, there are plenty of places you wont find apple products "everywhere you look".

Well when you claim Apple are doing something they're blatently not in the very first article then why would someone continue to read it?

Give Apple a break? They've been the media darling for a decade now. They hit a couple bumps and get criticized a couple times and you cry "leave Brittney alone!"?

This editorial should be about Microsoft. People do nothing but criticize them. It has become ingrained in our culture.

The difference for m, is that Microsoft's business model encourages People to Microsoft's Base idea and innovate from there. Take yesterdays story on Blades as an example. Apple, does not allow this, its their or no way.

If the Hardware manufactures would have innovated, Microsoft Would not be producing the Surface. Only reason they are in the game, is HP, Dell and the others where/are building crap.

HP, Dell, Acer, Samsung.. All were building crap, all did nothing to help Windows8 take off, I mean they complain when things aren't selling and blame Microsoft but its partly their product as well and what do they do? Stick hardware up on their site and prey it sells lol. Even Lenovo messing with the Windows 8.1 Start experience by installing an unnecessary 3rd party start menu Pokki... Half tempted to ditch my current Lenovo for a Surface Pro sometime soon because of that move

tl;dr Author is butthurt that people are pointing out that Apple aren't innovating. Uses clear fanboy arguments and also uses the hilarious 'I'm not a fanboy. I have an Android device!' argument.

Really don't understand the point of this editorial.

Makes the author come across as a hurt Apple fanboy, which I'm hoping he isn't.

Apple get too much praise when they do something good, they get too much stick when they do something bad, however it's pretty obvious that they do more bad stuff than good.

The key thing about Apple is that all they've ever done is take someone else's idea, design it aesthetically better but technically worse and slap a massive premium on it.

I'm not, this is more a response to all of the harsh and trolling anti-apple comments on this site. There is enough Apple hate here to justify a mostly one sided article.

NathanLiu said,
this is more a response to all of the harsh and trolling anti-apple comments on this site. There is enough Apple hate here to justify a mostly one sided article.

Some commenters seem to assume that this site is to Apple Inc. as Fox News is to the Democratic Party... that's how I personally look at (and am learning to ignore) those comments.

NathanLiu said,
I'm not, this is more a response to all of the harsh and trolling anti-apple comments on this site. There is enough Apple hate here to justify a mostly one sided article.

Did you plan on doing that for the other companies this sewer hates?

You have to be kidding right? This is a site mainly about Windows, do you expect everybody here to love Apple?
They might get a fair amount of backlash, but it's their own fault. Just look at how they present things. They talk to you like they are on LSD. This is magical, that is amazing, unparalleled blablabla so much better then the competition.....
If you talk like that you better deliver the goods, especially with those prices.

The article feels like it's written by somebody that got butt hurt by reading to many negative Apple posts.

If anything you guys should complain about the constant MS bashing that is going on by the same few people every time there is news about anything MS related.

Kalint said,

Did you plan on doing that for the other companies this sewer hates?

Its like the Verge doing a "A visual history of iOS" and the comment section was full of cry-babies proclaiming bias and how the Verge never does a visual history of Android featured piece. The next day, "A visual history of Android" is posted.

I'm trying to find the news story or featured piece that covers Android or Windows Phone and has the iOS fanboys crying about a news site being bias.... oh wait, there aren't any of those because the some of us have better things to do then go cry-baby in a article.

well i suppose if apple went with the latest arm designs then 64 bit is inevitable, seeing as theyd of licensed the arm v8 design then built the latest chip on that, so they still havnt invented anything new although they'd reckon they have. Also as i come to understand it 4GB ram isnt a limit of the 32bit architecture i think its more of a licensing limit for the consumer space, otherwise why can you have server racks with 32GB ram with 32bit server processors?

ZipZapRap said,
lol. I did say editorials on this site have gotten worse

case
in
point

Nah... this is more or less ok, you can agree or disagree politely, as he indeed has exposed his point politely. The Brad Sams one, where he called non Windows 8 fans ... something along the lines of "not smart enough", that was a bad editorial.

Doomguy- said,
I just threw up in my mouth a little. Innovation? LOL.

Arguably the fingerprint scanner was innovative.

Innovate - make changes in something established, esp. by introducing new methods, ideas, or products.

If they didn't innovate the fingerprint scanner, why does their's work and people use it while HTC completely failed at their fingerprint scanner for the HTC One Max? If there was no innovation at play, all fingerprint scanners should work equally well...but for some reason they don't.

Must be Apple is just lucky...not innovative. /s

It's not just Apple, Microsoft have taken a good bashing on Neowin too, as have Google over the whole locking Windows Phone devices out of Google services. In all honestly i've not seen a lot of bad things said about Apple as of late, no more than any other company anyway... if anything Microsoft has been getting more of a hard time over Windows 8 and the Xbox DRM.

I would like to think i'm pretty neutral in the tech world, i use devices / services from all the major players.

Windows 8.1 is my primary OS at home, that doesn't mean i think its perfect, far from it, however i do think the 8.1 update is a good improvement on 8.0

My Laptop is a Macbook Air which runs OSX 10.8, i love the design, build quality and most of all the portability and battery life. Again OSX is not perfect, I find Finder and various other things a bit useless tbh.

My Mobile device is a Galaxy Nexus running Android, like others have stated i like Android for the customisation it offers. I personally find mobile offerings from Microsoft and Apple boring, however that's just my opinion.

Cloud storage again is another company, I use Dropbox who i personally felt have had the best service long before Microsoft or anyone else got on board and started pushing it.

Despite all the different devices / services from the big players, i find they all work well together.

I don't think any of the major players, including Apple need a break. No company is going to please everyone, and i feel Apple get their fair share of both good / bad press, as do Microsoft and Google.

If anything its the fanboys and people who absolutely worship one company that do more damage, and cause trouble. A great example in the Neowin comments yesterday: http://www.neowin.net/news/hig...ith-rear-fingerprint-sensor - read the first comment and replies.

Edited by InsaneNutter, Oct 15 2013, 9:23am :

They have ONE successful product and basically milk it for all it's worth. The sell an iPod, and iPod which makes phone calls and and iPod with a bigger screen (in two sizes). All of these run an applauncher OS which Apple would love us to believe can work miracles. There has not been any innovation from Apple for at least three years really. All they do is bump specs and make their product oh so slightly thinner and lighter with every version.

The only thing they are really good at is twisting numbers, misrepresenting them and making us believe they are the greatest thing on earth. In reality they have been trend followers for years now and have not even been able to catch up to their competitors with new devices. They also manage to make normal technology sound like it's their 'innovation' or invention and make people believe it's something special. Case in point; Firewire, Lightning, Retina all of which are in no way Apple tech and just a generic product they slap a fancy name onto.

The have a stronghold in the US but for the rest of the world not so much. They are far behind the lead devices/OS and the number three is gaining on them at a fast pace.

Finally, they are a marketing machine which, once it runs out of steam, will fall into oblivion, and this time around they have no cast out founder who can be brought back and resurrect the company when it does.

Jobs was Apple and without him it's just a shell.

A few weeks ago I had a wonderful phone that did everything that I bought it for and it did it beautifully and owning it felt magical.

Then IOS7 arrived.

I now own a phone which frustrates and annoys me in every possible way you could imagine and which makes me feel like throwing it against the wall just to express the level of ****ing anger I feel towards the ****ing idiots at Apple who turned the wonderful phone I owned into a piece of ****ing junk that I ****ing hate.

In what way is a iPhone 5 a older device - on IOS6 it ran like a dream - IOS7 is the worst piece of ****ing **** I have ever seen as a operating system on any device ever.

Clearly haven't used enough OS's

There's a slight slow down on iPhone 5s, but I'd expect apple to have sorted that out soon enough. Most of the slow down is caused by the timing on animations. For the most part, the features are unchanged or occasionally rearranged. I'd say that's standard teething issues for an OS.

It'll get better, for what good that is to you.

Rolling out a fleet of iPads at work (not by choice), and we've told people not to update to iOS7 yet.
Sort of funny, we get some users saying we need to do it, and other saying that we made a good call by waiting.

leqin said,
In what way is a iPhone 5 a older device - on IOS6 it ran like a dream - IOS7 is the worst piece of ****ing **** I have ever seen as a operating system on any device ever.

iOS 7 runs buttery smooth on my iPhone 5. I recommend reinstalling and not restoring from backup. Setup as a "new phone". Seems to have worked for a lot of folks. iOS 7 was rushed out the door, no doubt. But if you have an iPhone 5 you should be getting the best experience. iPad 3 and previous devices, on the other hand....uhg...

I well balanced article, the only exception in my opinion is the view that when Apple introduced multitasking, they did it far better than their competitors. Personally I found it rubbish in comparison to the competition. What we should all be thankful for is Apple made others raise their game to the point that regardless of your preference you know you'll be getting a quality product, be it via iOS, Android or WP.

would not agree with everything being said here, but apple is surely to be appreciated for the smartphone boom they started and the ease in which its phones could be used, reminds me of earlier nokia phones which were so easy to use and did a good job

Not too long ago Apple said no one cares about specs... So wowie 64bit chip, that is absolutely worthless using todays apps and even hardware lol
so it is in fact Marketing Fluff.. & what happened to no one cares about Specs? Apple loves to laud the specs now, because they're running out of things to offer and ideas, fast

Edited by dingl_, Oct 15 2013, 9:07am :

So an apple fan boy writes an article on neowin complaining about those who criticize apple, urghhh. We'll stop complaining when apple lets other manufacturers connect to itunes, lets users customise their phones properly, lets users download whichever apps they want even if they replicate functionality in ios. Apple also sabotaged the nano sim by stopping the standard from having a notch which would allow for sim cards to be pushed into the phone like microsd cards, they rigged the prices of ebooks for which they have been fined by the u.s govt. Apple sues other manufacturers and tries to block the sale of their phones for having rounded corners (which should never have been granted a patent). Apple also doesn't allow users to connect a micro sd card or allow the battery to be removed. The iphone is the NSA's wet dream.

So yeah it isn't people complaining who just don't like the fact that apple is rich and successful it is that they are evil and controlling.

Edited by torrentthief, Oct 15 2013, 9:48am :

According to the author, what you just said is your own damn fault.

"If the above is not the same as what you want, that's not Apple's problem, it's yours. And you can go out and buy a fantastic Windows Phone device or Android phone that you will love."

apple fixing the prices of ebooks and sabotaging the notch on the nano sim isn't my fault, buying a different phone doesn't solve any of these issues i have with apple.

epple said,
According to the author, what you just said is your own damn fault.

"If the above is not the same as what you want, that's not Apple's problem, it's yours. And you can go out and buy a fantastic Windows Phone device or Android phone that you will love."

Its true though. If you don't like a product, go buy something else. But saying it is inherently wrong because it doesn't meet your needs and somehow projecting that as a fault of Apple is utter nonsense.

I didn't buy a Galaxy S4 because I thought the device was too damn big and because of that it didn't fit my needs. So therefore, I'm going to troll every article about the Galaxy S4 because it being in existence somehow oppresses me!!!! <---- Apple hater logic.

epple said,
According to the author, what you just said is your own damn fault.

"If the above is not the same as what you want, that's not Apple's problem, it's yours. And you can go out and buy a fantastic Windows Phone device or Android phone that you will love."

I personally find this a very dangerous precedent to set. Just saying that if you don't like a device you should just not buy it and shut the **** up, is not really much of a path that i would say will lead us to enlightenment.

Started off disagreeing, recovered in the middle, failed at the end.

The 64bit thing is, at this point, fluffery. It's a step towards the future of their platform, but that's not how they marketed it. If you come out and decree that your phone is inherently better because it's 64bit, that's how people are going to judge you.

The statement about pricing of equivalent computers is just wrong. There's a noteworthy pricing differential on apple machines in nigh on all markets. I'm not certain about the US market, but in Australia, you will find you are paying about 200-300 more depending on spec. You also pay a ton more for the upgrades. That's one of the noteworthy differences. People can justly complain about that kind of stuff because apple is price gauging them. Also, don't forget Apple's approach to accessories. You can pick up a 30 pin connector cable for $15, compared to $35 for the lightning adapter that does literally the same thing over the same (USB) connection. That's where Apple do this stuff now.

The reason Apple get such vehement backlash from the general internet community has very little to do with their product, and a whole lot to do with their keynotes and marketing. If you stand up and tell people your product is a million times better and that it's the future, and it's not; people are going to be rightfully derisive. Even when Apple do pull it off, they've ****ed off everyone with all the other BS spouted. I'd say that's a lot more to do with why Apple gets reciprocal BS.

Lastly, their choices are NOT my problem. I will judge them as I see fit whilst they continue to makes the claims they do. If you can show me I'm wrong, I'll wear it; but either way it falls, not my problem. My being able to choose not to buy Apple's products doesn't mean I have to become a mute deaf who is willing to listen to the drivel they spout in their marketing. I, like most, will continue to point out their bull****, because that's their problem, not mine.

EDIT::
Ninja edits.

To respond to your third paragraph: the spec of a computer is only a part of the whole story. Chassis design, often overlooked, is also very important. I never appreciated Magsafe until my laptop dropped onto a concrete floor after I tripped over the charging cable.

That's also part of the reason why an Acer, for example, is several hundreds cheaper than a Thinkpad of the same spec.

Oh definitely, but there are also machines with amazing build quality for less.

The HP Envy series, the Sony Vaio Pros and Duos, Toshiba's top end devices. I'd not touch Asus with a 10 foot stick atm, but when they aren't being ****..

Ultimately all of the machines are more or less equal build quality (in the Vaio Pros definitely more) and cost less money for more processing power and sometimes better design. It's wrong to say that they aren't paying a price premium for Apple devices. You do. You always do, but for some people it's worth it, and I have no issue with that >.<

articuno1au said,
Oh definitely, but there are also machines with amazing build quality for less.

The HP Envy series, the Sony Vaio Pros and Duos, Toshiba's top end devices. I'd not touch Asus with a 10 foot stick atm, but when they aren't being ****..

Ultimately all of the machines are more or less equal build quality (in the Vaio Pros definitely more) and cost less money for more processing power and sometimes better design. It's wrong to say that they aren't paying a price premium for Apple devices. You do. You always do, but for some people it's worth it, and I have no issue with that >.<

Stop fixating on the hardware and look at the WHOLE product - and that includes the operating system. It doesn't matter a hill of beans if you have gorgeous hardware that is wonderfully engineered and it is stuck with the boat anchor known as Windows. Windows is the problem and not the hardware - the heart of the Mac is OS X, that is what you buy a Mac for because that is the heart of a Mac.

It also include Thunderbolt. Does that cost Apple $200-$300 extra to add? Probably not (well maybe, isn't Thunderbolt still expensive to support hardware wise?), but it costs more than $0. Do you need it? It does not matter, it is included.

It also include iLife. Does that cost $200-$300 to develop? Probably? Garageband alone seems like it would be worth about $150.

So do those add to the difference? Maybe....maybe not. Do you need any of those things? Maybe, maybe not. It does not matter, they are included.

Mr Nom Nom's said,

Stop fixating on the hardware and look at the WHOLE product - and that includes the operating system. It doesn't matter a hill of beans if you have gorgeous hardware that is wonderfully engineered and it is stuck with the boat anchor known as Windows. Windows is the problem and not the hardware - the heart of the Mac is OS X, that is what you buy a Mac for because that is the heart of a Mac.

I try to look at Macs as a whole product and I always end up not buying them because they are stuck with a boat anchor known as OS X. OSX is the problem and not the hardware.

What kind of bloat do you find in OS X?

Last time I got a Dell, it had a trial of Office, year subscription to McAfee, 7 Dell applications, and their implementation of Object Dock.

articuno1au said,
If you come out and decree that your phone is inherently better because it's 64bit, that's how people are going to judge you.

Seems like only Apple haters are harping on the whole 64-bit thing. I can't think of any reviewer or opinionated iPhone 5S owner spouting 64-bit as being the bee's need's of smartphone.

Apple said the phone is 64-bit. The phone is 64-bit. Benchmark testing speaks for itself. All top of the line Smartphones next year will most likely be 64-bit. What are we even talking about here? Marketing nonsense? Really?

You guys invent in your mind these fictitious fanboys that make these silly arguments like 64-bit revolutionizes smartphones. Nobody is really saying that except for you but in a hyperbole kind of way. Its essentially a pathetic effort to discredit your imaginary "straw man" of a fanboy that doesn't really exist except in your mind. Thats the very definition of "blind hatred".

xWhiplash said,
What kind of bloat do you find in OS X?

Last time I got a Dell, it had a trial of Office, year subscription to McAfee, 7 Dell applications, and their implementation of Object Dock.

Well lets define bloat shall we. Bloat is by my definition, any software that the manufacturer installs into a computer, on top of the operating system, that serves as:

1. A non OS pre-installed tool set.
2. A non OS modifier that mimics/changes a feature of the OS for individuality and brand recognition.
3. Pre-installed commercial software that is designed as an incentive to spend more money on content for your PC.

With that in mind we can look at mac OSX and determine its bloat. Things I can think of are.

QuickTime. Falls under definition three.

I would like to point out that even though this is the built in player, it has some features like full screen removed unless you buy pro, so by definition three, this is bloat.

iTunes. Falls under definition three.

iLife (iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD and Garageband). Falls under definition one.

Ad Man Gamer said,

Well lets define bloat shall we. Bloat is by my definition, any software that the manufacturer installs into a computer, on top of the operating system, that serves as:

1. A non OS pre-installed tool set.
2. A non OS modifier that mimics/changes a feature of the OS for individuality and brand recognition.
3. Pre-installed commercial software that is designed as an incentive to spend more money on content for your PC.

With that in mind we can look at mac OSX and determine its bloat. Things I can think of are.

QuickTime. Falls under definition three.

I would like to point out that even though this is the built in player, it has some features like full screen removed unless you buy pro, so by definition three, this is bloat.

iTunes. Falls under definition three.

iLife (iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD and Garageband). Falls under definition one.

I appreciate your objectivity and follow it and for the most part agree. But IMO, what is bloat to someone is a perfectly great tool for another person. My boss loves the stupid battery bar on his thinkpad laptop that takes up a ridiculous amount of taskbar space and just looks plain tacky. One of the first things I removed when I first got my Thinkpad.

I have a subjective way of looking at bloat. Its that moment you realize that the people designing the computer would not want to use it on their own computers. Its that stuff that corporations put into computers, not people.

But those things are all created by Apple. There is no third party trials, or third party OS enhancements that they try to throw at you (Like I said, I got a dell and it came with a custom ObjectDock-like software).

Quicktime: What is the big deal? If you do not want the pro features, do not buy it?
iTunes: Same thing. Don't want music, tv shows, or movies? Do not buy them.

I can make the same arguments about Windows you know. Windows comes with IE, I do not want it. Windows comes with Windows Media Player, I do not want it. And so on.

Ad Man Gamer said,

I would like to point out that even though this is the built in player, it has some features like full screen removed unless you buy pro, so by definition three, this is bloat.

Full screen doesn't require pro. Only thing Pro provides are video encoding capabilities. There are about the same number of people who use Quicktime for Mac as use Windows Media Player for Microsoft. I don't consider either of them that great.

iTunes is pretty good though.

iTunes for me personally is a bit of a pig, and i use VLC for all my media needs. On mac it works well, but even if a PC came with Spotify, witch is a grate service, it will fall in definition three and will in my opinion be bloat.

Personally I like to build my PC and have it run only what i wish it to run, and I gave up buying PC's Years ago and can't think of going back to pre-built systems. scrubbing them of all their pre-installed crap is not worth the hassle, and i have never had a more stable satisfying experience with my computer ever since.

Also every mac i have use over the last fore years has had full screen locked in QuickTime. Is allowing this a recent change in current versions of QuickTime?

Ad Man Gamer said,
iTunes for me personally is a bit of a pig, and i use VLC for all my media needs. On mac it works well, but even if a PC came with Spotify, witch is a grate service, it will fall in definition three and will in my opinion be bloat.

Personally I like to build my PC and have it run only what i wish it to run, and I gave up buying PC's Years ago and can't think of going back to pre-built systems. scrubbing them of all their pre-installed crap is not worth the hassle, and i have never had a more stable satisfying experience with my computer ever since.

Also every mac i have use over the last fore years has had full screen locked in QuickTime. Is allowing this a recent change in current versions of QuickTime?

Actually, now that I think about it I think it was added with Mac OS X Lion. That was when the "fullscreen" app API came out and they wanted to promote that API in every one of their apps for obvious reasons.

Meh, I find iTunes to work just as well on Windows as it does on Mac OS X. When compared to other "full featured" media players (such as Spotify and WMP) I think its consistent when it comes to its resource usage. Foobar is probably the fullest featured media player that is light on resource. Spotify is just ew.

xWhiplash said,
But those things are all created by Apple. There is no third party trials, or third party OS enhancements that they try to throw at you (Like I said, I got a dell and it came with a custom ObjectDock-like software).

Quicktime: What is the big deal? If you do not want the pro features, do not buy it?
iTunes: Same thing. Don't want music, tv shows, or movies? Do not buy them.

I can make the same arguments about Windows you know. Windows comes with IE, I do not want it. Windows comes with Windows Media Player, I do not want it. And so on.

Not quite. if you read the definitions then IE and WMP do not count as bloat, for they do not fall into the three definitions. Note that i did not include Safari in the mix, for it is an OS tool set, just like IE. You will need a basic browser to install one that you desire, unless you wish to:

a. Use a command line and type the exact download URL off by hart.
b. Have the installer on a USB that you have acquired from another PC with a browser.

As for WMP, it does not violate definition three, unlike QuickTime. I have been informed that since lion, QuickTime has full screen unlocked for standard users. But, the program still sits in def 3, for it is still pre-installed commercial software that has media conversion and DV Capturing, locked unless you buy the full version.

Also, to address your concern with iLife being in the bloat list. I would make a comparison to computers that have Microsoft office pre-installed as well as the Live Essentials ecosystem. They may be made by Microsoft, but the point is that they are not a OS tool set.

Now i will admit that with apple being the sole manufacture of the mac, things can be blurred. Witch is why i am counting iLife as apples equivalent of Windows Live Essentials to try an unblurr that line, as they are marketed as separate software package's that in apples case are baked in. Whether you consider this a fair analysis however is really down to the reader. like i said, the line is blurred when it comes to apple.

Shadrack said,

Actually, now that I think about it I think it was added with Mac OS X Lion. That was when the "fullscreen" app API came out and they wanted to promote that API in every one of their apps for obvious reasons.

Meh, I find iTunes to work just as well on Windows as it does on Mac OS X. When compared to other "full featured" media players (such as Spotify and WMP) I think its consistent when it comes to its resource usage. Foobar is probably the fullest featured media player that is light on resource. Spotify is just ew.

Thank you for the clarification good sir. I will keep that in mind for the future.
I also respect your opinion on iTunes and Spotify. Your experience has obviously been different to mine and i think that this will have to be chocked down to being a matter of taste. For as the saying goes, to each his own.

I would like to just say that bloat is not necessarily a thing that dams the software. It is simply something that a manufacturer puts on their PC to help subsidize costs with advertising or/and to give their users software that they think most of their customers would appreciate. But things go wrong when the thing in question are Resource heavy, run in the background or can't be removed with ease (Yes, I'm looking at you bundled Antivirus Programs and any badly programed definition 2 software).

Ok well then we disagree then. Apple no longer innovates.. there is a lot of competition out there leapfrogging Apple, basically Apple has nothing left to steal from others.. and that is a genuine problem for them, I suppose they could still jam in some stolen ideas here and there into their device but competition is way ahead and thats why Apple is now seen as the non-innovator. Sucks for them I guess, was a fun ride while the momentum lasted

I go to work and every day I hear co-workers complain about 'Shoddy(censored myself) iOS7' their words.. theres a reason, the "magic" is gone, folks are still buying iOS devices but they're not loving it thats forsure

Edited by dingl_, Oct 15 2013, 12:41pm :

NathanLiu said,
Yep, I want people to disagree! Just fairly and rationally of course!

Fairly and rationally...? aha hahahaha!

dingl_ said,
Ok well then we disagree then. Apple no longer innovates.. there is a lot of competition out there leapfrogging Apple, basically Apple has nothing left to steal from others.. and that is a genuine problem for them, I suppose they could still jam in some stolen ideas here and there into their device but competition is way ahead and thats why Apple is now seen as the non-innovator. Sucks for them I guess, was a fun ride while the momentum lasted

I go to work and every day I hear co-workers complain about 'Shoddy(censored myself) iOS7' their words.. theres a reason, the "magic" is gone, folks are still buying iOS devices but they're not loving it thats forsure

Your comments totally went against the author's message "Yep, I want people to disagree! Just fairly and rationally of course!"

F for dingl_

NathanLiu said,
Yep, I want people to disagree! Just fairly and rationally of course!

As long as I can not buy Apples overpriced garbage I'm good. No current interest in the smartphone market.

dingl_ said,
Ok well then we disagree then. Apple no longer innovates.. there is a lot of competition out there leapfrogging Apple, basically Apple has nothing left to steal from others.. and that is a genuine problem for them, I suppose they could still jam in some stolen ideas here and there into their device but competition is way ahead and thats why Apple is now seen as the non-innovator. Sucks for them I guess, was a fun ride while the momentum lasted

I go to work and every day I hear co-workers complain about 'Shoddy(censored myself) iOS7' their words.. theres a reason, the "magic" is gone, folks are still buying iOS devices but they're not loving it thats forsure

Biggest load of **** I've ever read. With work, or friends, Apple is the most predominate company with mobile devices. Everyone I know that still has them, loves them... there's no magic disappearing. You're probably just saying that as you have a lovely, plastic device. Keep at it!

kayzee said,

Biggest load of **** I've ever read. With work, or friends, Apple is the most predominate company with mobile devices. Everyone I know that still has them, loves them... there's no magic disappearing. You're probably just saying that as you have a lovely, plastic device. Keep at it!

Settle down Meltdown Mindy. The majority of my iPhone loving/owning friends and family have the same attitude since iOS7. The Internet is littered with people complaining about it. I'm sorry reality is setting it.

kayzee said,

You're probably just saying that as you have a lovely, plastic device. Keep at it!

Nice passive aggressive Ad hominem you have there.

nekkidtruth said,

Settle down Meltdown Mindy. The majority of my iPhone loving/owning friends and family have the same attitude since iOS7. The Internet is littered with people complaining about it. I'm sorry reality is setting it.

I'm not usually one to get angry about these things but jesus christ the delusion in this place is just incredible.

You're talking crap and you know it, but of course you'd never admit it, because it's cool to hate on Apple 'the internet' is full of people complaining about every damn product ever made, you just tend to concentrate on the things that you hate, too. In this place called 'reality' (you should visit sometime) everyone I know is loving iOS 7, or feels no different to iOS 6 at the very least. If people are saying iOS is worse now, man these people have gone full retard and their opinions are void anyway.

kayzee said,

I'm not usually one to get angry about these things but jesus christ the delusion in this place is just incredible.

You're talking crap and you know it, but of course you'd never admit it, because it's cool to hate on Apple 'the internet' is full of people complaining about every damn product ever made, you just tend to concentrate on the things that you hate, too. In this place called 'reality' (you should visit sometime) everyone I know is loving iOS 7, or feels no different to iOS 6 at the very least. If people are saying iOS is worse now, man these people have gone full retard and their opinions are void anyway.

Get off your high horse. An excruciatingly simple search on Google for "issues with ios7" yields an enormous dose of you're the one who is talking crap. Each of my delusional family members who own iPhones (contrary to my brow beating, bullying and constant making fun of), have all complained about iOS7 and wish they'd never "upgraded".

You may not like the fact that others experience things differently than you do, that however does not make others experiences untrue or "crap".

nekkidtruth said,

Get off your high horse. An excruciatingly simple search on Google for "issues with ios7" yields an enormous dose of you're the one who is talking crap. Each of my delusional family members who own iPhones (contrary to my brow beating, bullying and constant making fun of), have all complained about iOS7 and wish they'd never "upgraded".

You may not like the fact that others experience things differently than you do, that however does not make others experiences untrue or "crap".

Search for iOS 7... complaints, of course!

Search for iOS 6... complaints, of course!

Search for WP8... complaints, of course!

Search for Android 4... complaints, of course!

Everyone will moan about something at some point, that's usually the reason the reason people go online for an OS.

Personally, I've not heard of anyone irl complaining about iOS 7. Most complaints I hear are about Windows! But it's the most used OS in the work environment so percentages say that's pretty obvious.

So your rebuttal is to compare a mobile OS to a desktop OS.... Thank you for proving you are the one who has no idea what he's talking about. The point of doing a search for the issues is you ignorantly believe it's perfect and no one is complaining. You are wrong.

I like how you use the opinion of what your family says, while at the same time referring to them as being delusional. Which is it?

As someone who works with hundreds of people each week, there's not much in the way of complaints with iOS7. The biggest question we get is if the device they buy today will actually be compatible with the iOS7 update. iPhones and iPads will continue to sell like hotcakes; no one is avoiding the devices at all just because of the update.

You're right +dead.cell unfortunately it would seem that nekkidtruth is the delusional one here.

Please tell me, what's the difference between searching for issues with a phone OS or a desktop OS?

dead.cell said,
I like how you use the opinion of what your family says, while at the same time referring to them as being delusional. Which is it?

As someone who works with hundreds of people each week, there's not much in the way of complaints with iOS7. The biggest question we get is if the device they buy today will actually be compatible with the iOS7 update. iPhones and iPads will continue to sell like hotcakes; no one is avoiding the devices at all just because of the update.

So your real world experience automatically trumps mine because? No need to be silly. My family members are delusional because they continue to believe the iPhone is the second coming regardless of it's faults. However, they are now complaining about iOS7 and it's issues. I'm sorry I had to explain it to you since for whatever reason, you weren't able to differentiate the reasons they're delusional. For the record, I do know people who are avoiding Apple devices due to iOS7. Once again, your experiences do not trump my own. As much as you may believe they do. I'm sorry I crushed your dreams.

kayzee said,
You're right +dead.cell unfortunately it would seem that nekkidtruth is the delusional one here.

Please tell me, what's the difference between searching for issues with a phone OS or a desktop OS?

You're twisting the conversation to suit your needs. We weren't discussing searching for issues on desktop OS's. Nor were even discussing desktop OS's. You're the one who compared a desktop OS to a mobile OS where it made absolutely zero sense. So to answer your question, it's not relevant.

Because I'm not just dealing with friends and family members, but your everyday consumer on a day to day basis. I sell Microsoft solutions for the most part, however, that doesn't mean I'm going to change the mind of the consumer who wants something non-Microsoft. I generally gauge what people think just for my own assessment in gaining a better understanding of the problems people have with existing products.

That's how I've learned for instance that some people buying the Surface RT were a bit upset as a few business users were looking to be able to stream wireless to a TV or projector when using PowerPoint for their presentations. It's not a majority of course, as the majority are students using it for school, but it is an interesting assessment at least.

I could give a rats ass whatever company flag you decide to wave in your backyard. I'm more concerned with realistic solutions because: regardless of what company you choose, you need your products to work. Retailers do not want returns after all.

I'm not saying iPads are perfect, but you'd be blind to believe they're anywhat unpopular at all, or that iOS7 is hated. Fact of the matter is: while not everyone may be happy with the update, it's still a big improvement over iOS6. Thus, looking back isn't even an option.

dead.cell said,
Because I'm not just dealing with friends and family members, but your everyday consumer on a day to day basis. I sell Microsoft solutions for the most part, however, that doesn't mean I'm going to change the mind of the consumer who wants something non-Microsoft. I generally gauge what people think just for my own assessment in gaining a better understanding of the problems people have with existing products.

That's how I've learned for instance that some people buying the Surface RT were a bit upset as a few business users were looking to be able to stream wireless to a TV or projector when using PowerPoint for their presentations. It's not a majority of course, as the majority are students using it for school, but it is an interesting assessment at least.

I could give a rats ass whatever company flag you decide to wave in your backyard. I'm more concerned with realistic solutions because: regardless of what company you choose, you need your products to work. Retailers do not want returns after all.

I'm not saying iPads are perfect, but you'd be blind to believe they're anywhat unpopular at all, or that iOS7 is hated. Fact of the matter is: while not everyone may be happy with the update, it's still a big improvement over iOS6. Thus, looking back isn't even an option.

This has nothing to do with which "flag I decide to wave in my backyard". This has to do with reality. The reality is, it's not all rainbows and pots of gold when it comes to the latest and greatest from the fruit company. Whether you believe it or not makes no difference. Last time I checked, your opinions/experiences don't cease to exist simply because someone else's are different. We can wave our epeens back and forth from now until Christmas if you'd like, but your experience does not mirror my own. I'll choose mine over yours thank you. I also choose not to ignore the fact that so many of the people that *I* deal with on a day to day basis are having issues and have been vocal about it.

What did you think was going to happen here? I was going to respond with "Oh my. Well dead.cell, you are so fantastically smart and obviously know better than I do even though what happens right here in front of my face in REAL LIFE is totally different than what you're experiencing!"

No.

Of course it's not rainbows and pots of gold. However, you're claiming as if it's this widescale massive uprising which is completely bogus. iOS7 isn't perfect, just like any piece of new software, but that's not anything new. It's not like everyone's device is broke or anything close for that matter either.

Edited by dead.cell, Oct 17 2013, 2:20am :

nekkidtruth said,

This has nothing to do with which "flag I decide to wave in my backyard". This has to do with reality. The reality is, it's not all rainbows and pots of gold when it comes to the latest and greatest from the fruit company. Whether you believe it or not makes no difference. Last time I checked, your opinions/experiences don't cease to exist simply because someone else's are different. We can wave our epeens back and forth from now until Christmas if you'd like, but your experience does not mirror my own. I'll choose mine over yours thank you. I also choose not to ignore the fact that so many of the people that *I* deal with on a day to day basis are having issues and have been vocal about it.

What did you think was going to happen here? I was going to respond with "Oh my. Well dead.cell, you are so fantastically smart and obviously know better than I do even though what happens right here in front of my face in REAL LIFE is totally different than what you're experiencing!"

No.

Like I said everyone complains about something. I have interest in Apple and Microsoft OS's (not really in Google's) and I visit many other forums/new sites related to technology other than this one.

I'm going to continue to compare mobile OS's and desktop OS's, because... well the clues int the name, they're all OS's!

I've seen the complaints about Windows 8, of course. I saw the complaints about Vista & ME... I've been in this game a long time buddy. I saw the complaints about the iPhone OS when it first came out. But the reason I'm calling bull**** is that I just haven't seen that same explosion about iOS 7. Certainly not in the real world, and a tiny proportion (compared to the others) online.

I'm not saying your points aren't valid... but I'm saying your 'delusional' family or whatever, are in the minority here. I guess we're kinda making the same point here, my real world experiences are just different to yours.

I guess the real difference is I didn't start trolling on a thread about loosing 'magic', not 'innovating' and 'stealing' which tbh, just made you look pathetic (and why I had to reply)

kayzee said,

I guess the real difference is I didn't start trolling on a thread about loosing 'magic', not 'innovating' and 'stealing' which tbh, just made you look pathetic (and why I had to reply)

Uh. I never said any of those things. There's no mention of any of those words in any of my responses to you. Clearly I'm not the only "pathetic" one. Keep hurling the insults. Keep on keep on!

dead.cell said,
Of course it's not rainbows and pots of gold. However, you're claiming as if it's this widescale massive uprising which is completely bogus. iOS7 isn't perfect, just like any piece of new software, but that's not anything new. It's not like everyone's device is broke or anything close for that matter either.

When there are multiple sites online writing articles about the long list of bugs and or the multiple ways to fix and or disable portions of the OS, multiple people around me (whether friends, family or strangers) complaining about iOS7, I'm afraid I can't agree.

nekkidtruth said,

Uh. I never said any of those things. There's no mention of any of those words in any of my responses to you. Clearly I'm not the only "pathetic" one. Keep hurling the insults. Keep on keep on!

Apologies... I scrolled up to the beginning of our conversation and forgot it was actually someone else (dingl_) that said those things.

Whereas you, just started randomly voicing your opinions against mine.

nekkidtruth said,

When there are multiple sites online writing articles about the long list of bugs and or the multiple ways to fix and or disable portions of the OS, multiple people around me (whether friends, family or strangers) complaining about iOS7, I'm afraid I can't agree.

Problems with Windows 8 - http://timesofindia.indiatimes...ns/itslideshow/20003075.cms

Problems with Windows 7 - http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/t...ted-windows-7-problems-fix/

Problems with Windows XP - https://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewf...;lc=en&cc=uk&dlc=en

Problems with iOS 6 - http://www.gottabemobile.com/2...plaguing-iphone-ipad-users/

Problems with iOS 5 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15288003

Problems with Android 4 - http://androidforums.com/motor...android-4-0-4-problems.html

Problems with Android 3 - http://www.techhive.com/articl..._android_3_0_honeycomb.html

Problems with WP8 - http://www.digitaltrends.com/m...e/windows-phone-8-problems/

Problems with WP7 - http://www.techradar.com/news/...ne-7-problems-solved-902462

Problems with Linux - http://linuxmint.com/rel_debian.php

Problems with OS X - http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-1...ith-the-os-x-10.8.5-update/

So pray tell, what makes iOS 7 having problems unique? There will never be a perfect piece of software written, get over it. I'll let you know when I have an actual problem myself though

kayzee said,
*snipped irrelevant information*

If your response is "Well everyone else has issues too!" there's no point in even discussing it. We're not talking about everyone else, we're talking about iOS7. Have a good day.

kayzee said,

Apologies... I scrolled up to the beginning of our conversation and forgot it was actually someone else (dingl_) that said those things.

Whereas you, just started randomly voicing your opinions against mine.

There was absolutely nothing random about it. You were throwing a tantrum because someone else's experiences differed from your own. Completely ignoring the fact that there ARE issues and they aren't as minor as you make them out to be. It's one thing to say "I haven't experienced that. There does appear to be some issues, but I'm sure they'll be fixed." and another entirely to say "CRAP! B.S! YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT! YOU'RE PATHETIC!"

nekkidtruth said,

There was absolutely nothing random about it. You were throwing a tantrum because someone else's experiences differed from your own. Completely ignoring the fact that there ARE issues and they aren't as minor as you make them out to be. It's one thing to say "I haven't experienced that. There does appear to be some issues, but I'm sure they'll be fixed." and another entirely to say "CRAP! B.S! YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT! YOU'RE PATHETIC!"

Woah, chill pill needed there dude. I guess we're at the end of our discussion now.

To sum up, you've seen issues with people you know using iOS 7; I have not. You think people are going to leave the Apple ecosystem because of this, I do not believe this to be true. I've pointed out that every OS ever made has had issues, so telling me people online moan about iOS 7 means absolutely nothing,

Have a nice day

kayzee said,
*snipped*

Nothing to chill out about. I'm not the one having a spaz attack. Also, once again putting words in my mouth. Feel free to point out where I said "people are going to leave the Apple ecosystem" because of anything. I simply stated that I know people who are avoiding the devices. Nowhere near the same thing.

nekkidtruth said,

Nothing to chill out about. I'm not the one having a spaz attack. Also, once again putting words in my mouth. Feel free to point out where I said "people are going to leave the Apple ecosystem" because of anything. I simply stated that I know people who are avoiding the devices. Nowhere near the same thing.

You said, "I do know people who are avoiding Apple devices due to iOS7" which is the same as leaving the ecosystem, presuming we're talking about people upgrading from iOS 6 (if we're not, then this whole discussion is moot)

These people that are 'avoiding' Apple devices due to iOS 7... are they doing so because of problems? Even you must agree with my point that every system has it's problems. If so, I predict they will make a change and be disappointed. If it's just the way the OS looks, then that's absolutely fair enough (because it's totally subjective) although, of course, you could simply not apply the update.

kayzee said,

You said, "I do know people who are avoiding Apple devices due to iOS7" which is the same as leaving the ecosystem, presuming we're talking about people upgrading from iOS 6 (if we're not, then this whole discussion is moot)

These people that are 'avoiding' Apple devices due to iOS 7... are they doing so because of problems? Even you must agree with my point that every system has it's problems. If so, I predict they will make a change and be disappointed. If it's just the way the OS looks, then that's absolutely fair enough (because it's totally subjective) although, of course, you could simply not apply the update.

No they are not the same thing. One does not automatically mean the other simply because you say it does. Regardless, I think our conversation has run it's course. We'll just have to agree to disagree here.

CPressland said,
I completely agree! I'm biased to Apple, but the Apple bashing on Neowin really makes me stop bothering to use the Forums.

So while giving Apple a break, should we also give all other companies selling a product in competition a break too? Or do you just deserve a break more if you're better at selling your product and someone feels more worthy of respect and praise?

Well, I don't take a stab at any other vendor. While I dislike other Mobile Operating Systems, I don't bash the other vendors all day. I'm simply stating that the bashing needs to stop.

headsoup said,
So while giving Apple a break, should we also give all other companies selling a product in competition a break too? Or do you just deserve a break more if you're better at selling your product and someone feels more worthy of respect and praise?

Yes, how abut lets also see people stop comparing the launch of Windows 8 as akin to their favourite cat dying of cancer. There is a time and place to have an argument for or against something but the childish hyperbole under the BS argument of 'all opinions are equally valid' ignores the fact most comments I've seen here are pathetic at best. Lets not get started on people who troll the Mac section of the website and wonder why a flame war starts out - it is the Mac section for a reason, put two and two together.

CPressland said,
Well, I don't take a stab at any other vendor.

Others do. A lot. All of the time. Which is why I won't give Apple any breaks and strange articles like this don't help.

Mr Nom Nom's said,

Yes, how abut lets also see people stop comparing the launch of Windows 8 as akin to their favourite cat dying of cancer. There is a time and place to have an argument for or against something but the childish hyperbole under the BS argument of 'all opinions are equally valid' ignores the fact most comments I've seen here are pathetic at best. Lets not get started on people who troll the Mac section of the website and wonder why a flame war starts out - it is the Mac section for a reason, put two and two together.

Oh sorry, I wasn't aware trolling was just particular to Apple. /s

Or are the anti-Apple trolls just better at it given the reaction?

headsoup said,

Oh sorry, I wasn't aware trolling was just particular to Apple. /s

Or are the anti-Apple trolls just better at it given the reaction?

It's not that they're any better, it's that there's an army ready for anything that may or may not be related to Apple. I'm primarily an MS user these days, but some times there's some good Apple news to read. It always gets spoiled by the anti-Apple trolls ****ting on each article from their parents' basement, though.

dr_crabman said,

Others do. A lot. All of the time. Which is why I won't give Apple any breaks and strange articles like this don't help.

The classic strategy of resorting to the lowest common denominator in regards to behavior. I see how you are completely justified /s.

I read something stupid an Apple fan wrote, so all other Apple fans must be equally as stupid. Democrats and Republicans have used this strategy for decades.

dr_crabman said,

Others do. A lot. All of the time. Which is why I won't give Apple any breaks and strange articles like this don't help.

Here's an idea, grown up, be a man and stop caring what other's think about your products.