Editorial

Editorial: Thanks Microsoft, for no WP8 upgrade path

The title of this editorial is in no way sarcastic, I genuinely want to thank Microsoft for biting the bullet and choosing not to support any of the last-generation Windows Phone devices by the time Windows Phone 8 is released.

Yes, this is a hard decision to make, and yes it does crush the hopes and dreams of everyone currently rocking a Windows Phone device; even more so if you recently bought a Nokia Lumia 900 which will become redundant in under a year. But once the storm has calmed and Windows Phone 8 has released, it will be the best decision Microsoft has made since the major revamp of Windows Mobile.

It's all in the clean slate. In the development of Windows Phone 8 Microsoft has not been restricted by old, and quite frankly outdated hardware. They haven't had to think about ensuring that all the new features they are introducing will work on the underpowered range of Windows Phone 7 hardware, instead looking forward to what they can do with modern chipsets.

The clean slate has allowed them to implement an entirely new backend to the Windows Phone platform without even thinking about backwards compatibility. Just think how good, how smooth, how powerful this will be without any sort of legacy code involved. 

A lot of time was put in to ensuring the initial range of Windows Phones worked as smoothly as possible with single-core chipsets, and I don't believe this will change with the introduction of dual-core Snapdragons in this round of hardware updates. However, Microsoft's limits have been enormously increased by finally supporting the newest chips, and by not having to focus on optimizing two-year-old hardware they can ensure the new stuff works really, really well.

And can you imagine a dual-core Windows Phone with a 720p display and microSD card support? If anything is going to compete with the top-end Android devices, it's going to be a visually great, smooth operating system slapped atop a powerful backbone of fantastic hardware. That's what Microsoft needs to focus on, and that's what they will be doing with their 'clean slate' approach to WP8.

Then comes the cost. Would it really be worth it for Microsoft to optimize their new software across 25 old phones that only occupy 2% of the market? Of course not! They should be spending all their Windows Phone budget to help capture the remaining 98%, even at the expense of a few annoyed users who may jump ship. They are doing just this, and it's the right choice.

For current Windows Phone 7 users? Well your phone still works with all the features advertised at the time you made the choice, and you'll even get the awesome new Windows Phone 8 Start Screen ported when Windows Phone 7.8 is available for your device. Then later down the track you can upgrade to a platform with a promised 18 months of support.

So thank you Microsoft for your choice with Windows Phone 8's upgrade path (or lack thereof). The platform is almost certainly going to be better for it in the future, and I fully support the hard decision you made. Kudos.

On another note, I can't wait to tell you all "I told you so". Twice.

Report a problem with article
Previous Story

TechSpot: AMD Radeon HD 7970 GHz Edition Review

Next Story

YouTube's existence threatened in Japan

177 Comments

Commenting is disabled on this article.

But, Nokia Lumia users will still be able to make phone calls with their WP7 phones right? And send SMS text messages and use the other apps installed on the phone. I can't understand why people are freaking out like the universe is collapsing or something.

This should never have happened with such a young OS built from scratch. And ****ing off your early adopters even if they are only 2% of the market is an interesting approach

JSYOUNG571 said,
All I have to say is that Apple and Google are having a field day on this.
yeah seriously, there is no way that the lumia 900 won't get this update

As someone who got a Lumia 900 in April I didn't like hearing it be called "legacy" nor was I fond of hearing I wasn't going to be able to upgrade to a full WP8. However, if you live in the US and bought the phone before April whatever day, Nokia put a $100 credit on your account so you essentially didn't pay for the phone. Thinking of it that way, how mad can I really be?

Nobody keeps their mobile for longer than two years so I agree with any software company that stops providing next version OS compatibility for a device which can not have its hardware upgraded.

As long as WP7 is supported from a security point of view then users should expect no more. If your not fully happy with the OS on your phone at the point of sale then why buy it?

Better to rip off the bandaid and take the pain now, then bloat WP7.x until the devices become unusable. Let's face it - the existing WP install base is a rounding error compared to iOS/Android and just not really worth considering. Let's say the worst case scenario that this alienated 2-3 million WP users, well WP8 will help attract tens of millions of new customers. So according to basic math, Microsoft wins.

Whats the big deal?

If they announced wp 7.8 would be wp 8, and wp 8.5 to have all the new hardware specs, would people stop complaining?

Everyone short sighted would say woo hoo lumia 900 gets upgraded to wp8, just as how many people here are short sighted on 7.8.

Apps developed with the .net framework can run on existing legacy devices and future devices. Developers who aren't using specific wp8 features (e.g. hardware, native software) will be stupid if they don't start up their visual studio and target wp7.8. WPF is based around vector graphics so scalability for resolution is an ease for anyone that uses the .net framework.

Am I the only one who's actually pretty thrilled that my phone *will*, in fact, be getting a major update (to 7.8)? I'm looking forward to getting the new start screen and whatever other improvements they throw my way!

I supposed most people are in the glass-is-half-empty camp, but when I bought my Titan, it's because I liked it. A lot. And now it's going to get even better. I simply don't see what there is to complain about.

I get what you guys are saying BUT that's not how every blog on the planet is spinning it. even the WSJ said something along the lines that every lumia buyer just bought an obsolete device while every iphone buyer can get the latest OS 3 years from now....and they are RIGHT.

when a potential customer reads that they think:
I'LL NEVER BUY A WINDOWS PHONE.

They will not do all the marketshare cost benefit analysis. they don't care. they are customers and they should be treated better.

How much money does MSFT make? whatever cost, they should have at least supported every mango device with true windows phone 8 even if it had to be custom build of 8.

Nikia needs to step up and do the right thing: force MSFT to port as much os windows phone 8's feature as the hardware allows.

neonspark said,
I get what you guys are saying BUT that's not how every blog on the planet is spinning it. even the WSJ said something along the lines that every lumia buyer just bought an obsolete device while every iphone buyer can get the latest OS 3 years from now....and they are RIGHT.

when a potential customer reads that they think:
I'LL NEVER BUY A WINDOWS PHONE.

They will not do all the marketshare cost benefit analysis. they don't care. they are customers and they should be treated better.

How much money does MSFT make? whatever cost, they should have at least supported every mango device with true windows phone 8 even if it had to be custom build of 8.

Nikia needs to step up and do the right thing: force MSFT to port as much os windows phone 8's feature as the hardware allows.

It's also untrue. The iPhone 3G lost support with the iPhone 4's release. It did get iOS 4, and then an update that actually made it almost workable, but then they just ended support without even telling anyone midway through the iOS 4 lifecycle. The 3GS is getting iOS 6, but that's because Apple is disingenuously selling it for free with a new contract; there is no doubt that they will cut it off midway just like the iPhone 3G, which is really no different than what Microsoft just did with the Lumia (when the iPhone 5 comes out, so will iOS 6, and then they will probably shift the iPhone 4 into the free on contract range, leaving the still brand new 3GS customers SOL when they have support dropped from under them without even being told that it's happened/happening). After all, this is the same iOS release that drops support for superior hardware: the original iPad.

I disagree with the premise of this editorial: I will not thank Microsoft for not upgrading my Lumia 900 to Windows Phone 8. However, I do not have much of an axe to grind now that I saw the reason: the Snapdragon S4 Plus adds security features at the hardware level that did not exist on older hardware, and it would be crazy to port everything without those features, which are a huge piece of the WP8 system. WP8 will be a much better and more secure platform because they did not backport without those security features. Hardware changes are the only acceptable form of a blocked upgrade to me, and Microsoft has proven to me that they actually have such a change. And, at least Microsoft finally had the guts to tell us, unlike every other manufacturer that lets you figure it out because you haven't gotten the latest upgrade (see iPhone 3G, and practically every Android phone, although Apple was forthcoming about the iPad getting dropped, sort of, by not listing it as supported as opposed to saying it's not getting it).

With that said, I am surprised that it happened. Microsoft should have planned ahead about this and put whatever necessary hardware into--at least--the latest generation of phones. They didn't, and it's going to cost them some of their early adopters, but only a few technical ones. The WP7.8 upgrade was, surprisingly, good enough for my girlfriend to be excited about, and they have only announced that we are getting the start screen. And they're supposedly going to announce a lot more features coming back to us.

So here is another perspective...I went throught the video of the conference with my girlfriend (we are both Nokia Lumia 900 owners). After watching the video our conversation went something like this:

Me "So what did you think about about Windows Phone 8?"
<Some discussion of the video>
Her "Do our phones get upgraded?"
Me "Sort of, we get a new upgrade with the features that won't be specific to the new hardware."
Her "Do we get the new start screen?"
Me "Well that's the one thing I KNOW we will get..."
Her "Woohoo! That's tht coolest thing"

So while some of us will definitely be wanting more and possibly upgrade to WP8, you can't say everyone will feel the same way...Personally, the only thing I would want that I don't think make 7.8 would be the Skype (VoIP) integration.

Everybody is missing an important point. Windows phone 8 was the plan all along. When windows phone 7 came out it was missing serious features you have to wonder why? It was a stopgap until the Microsoft ported the NT core to Arm. Nokia chose Windows phone over android not because windows phone 7 was so great because Microsoft told them of their plans for windows phone 8. This is why the Nokia Lumia 900/800 was just was just rebadged N9. The first true phone designed for nokia windows phone will really be the next generation of nokia phones.

With Microsoft "sticking it" to their enterprise smartphone, laptop, and desktop users; Apple is looking better and better when long-term costs are taken into consideration. While individuals have the luxury of updating/replacing their "toys" on a regular basis, businesses do not have that luxury.

This is basically the same as a game console upgrade that has full backwards compatibility. Like going from Xbox to Xbox 360 developers are unencumbered by not having to code for legacy hardware. However if a developer wants to reach the biggest windows phone audience that's always going to mean creating the app for WP7. So now the developer has the choice of creating a very powerful app or one that targets a larger audience.

There are a couple of things I take issue with. First I do think IE10 should be ported to WP7 and I do think Skype should continue working on WP7 until they have an experience comparable to Tango video chat. Finally I don't see why Nokia Drive app can't be made available to all WP7 users after WP8 comes out. Its a trivial thing and a nice gesture to the entire WP ecosystem. To be honest these last 3 things are not high priority compared to WP8, but it feels like a classy way to close off WP7.

Excellent post I must say. For people with WP7.5 that suffers from crushed dreams and hopes, don't connect your dreams and hopes to a phone

Javik said,
But wasnt WP meant to be the only solution to fragmentation?

it is not fragmented because they are killing whatever is left behind.

Javik said,
But wasnt WP meant to be the only solution to fragmentation?

Yes, these changes will lead to a small, manageable level of fragmentation but it's nothing like the nightmare that Android users struggle with on a regular basis. Note that gen1 WP users are also getting an upgrade which is something that Android users won't be familiar with.

At first I was sort of angry that I wasn't going to get WP8 on my device and rather a cut-down version (7.8), but now I'm over that. Most of the features in WP8 are either new hardware support or apps that utilize that hardware. I'm sure Microsoft will bring over whatever they can to current devices. As for the marketplace apps, I'm sure developers will provide 7.8 versions of their applications for at least the first six months after Windows Phone 8. After that, I don't know.
The update support has still been quite good. 1st Gen devices got NoDo, Mango, and will get Tango & 7.8. That's two major and two minor updates, which is really not bad at all. Now, on newer devices (Lumia phones), things are a bit more complicated. They're already on Mango, and will get tango and 7.8. Who knows, MS might provide some more updates for those devices even after WP8 is out.
In any case, my next phone will still be a Windows Phone, since thus far this OS has provided the best experience for me.

Now IS the time to do it. 2% marketshare anyone? Try doing this with 20% marketshare and see what happens. Yes, it pains some of us early adopters but I'd rather it happen now than really any other time. Ideally, they would have come out of the gate with WP8 but I digress. It would just be nice if a deal could be made with carriers to upgrade for cheap and have MS eat the cost. They really should do something for the L900/800/710 buyers. At least we DO get 7.8.

laserfloyd said,
Now IS the time to do it. 2% marketshare anyone? Try doing this with 20% marketshare and see what happens. Yes, it pains some of us early adopters but I'd rather it happen now than really any other time. Ideally, they would have come out of the gate with WP8 but I digress. It would just be nice if a deal could be made with carriers to upgrade for cheap and have MS eat the cost. They really should do something for the L900/800/710 buyers. At least we DO get 7.8.

the question is, the 2% were your BIGGEST fans. you just screw them up. Why would anybody buy WP8 just to have WP9 clean the slate again?

You guys that are complaining all need to realize the market is far more massive than you think. In the long run, 98% of consumers won't ever know there's an incompatibility between the two and won't care. MS is "alienating" a small part of WP7 owners and a miniscule amount of all smartphone owners. The reward will be much greater than any perceived risk.

spenser.d said,
You guys that are complaining all need to realize the market is far more massive than you think. In the long run, 98% of consumers won't ever know there's an incompatibility between the two and won't care. MS is "alienating" a small part of WP7 owners and a miniscule amount of all smartphone owners. The reward will be much greater than any perceived risk.

small part of it's biggest fans. those that said good things about the phone. now you have to convince apple biggots to leave the iphone..err good luck.

neonspark said,

small part of it's biggest fans. those that said good things about the phone. now you have to convince apple biggots to leave the iphone..err good luck.

If you check out the fan sites such as wpcentral.com you'll find that the majority of people support Microsoft's decision. The fans aren't as upset as people here at Neowin would have you believe

My greatest concern is not about what features will be back-ported from 8.0 to 7.8. What worries me most is the upgrade path to 8.0. Are we going to be in the same bad situation we faced when attempting to upgrade from 6.5 to 7 or from mobile phone x to 8.0? How will we export/import contacts, phone call history, SMS messages, device storage items like photos, music, videos etc. Will we be able to do device backup for these things? Wouldn't it be cool if you could send over all your account setups for e-mail Facebook Linked-In etc to your new 8.0 device without having to set it all up again? I hope at least, that the upgrade path from 7.x to 8 is MUCH smoother.

CtrlShift said,
My greatest concern is not about what features will be back-ported from 8.0 to 7.8. What worries me most is the upgrade path to 8.0. Are we going to be in the same bad situation we faced when attempting to upgrade from 6.5 to 7 or from mobile phone x to 8.0? How will we export/import contacts, phone call history, SMS messages, device storage items like photos, music, videos etc. Will we be able to do device backup for these things? Wouldn't it be cool if you could send over all your account setups for e-mail Facebook Linked-In etc to your new 8.0 device without having to set it all up again? I hope at least, that the upgrade path from 7.x to 8 is MUCH smoother.

Don't forget contact groups. They should really be stored in the cloud and available to other phones, email clients, etc.

What annoys me is why did they even bother with WP7 if WP8 underpinnings were their goal, that's the kick in the teeth. They shouldn't have bothered until they got NT on phones as that was what their plan was all along, not WP7. They just wasted two years getting nowhere and flak to go with it. Imagine if they announced their new OS today instead of two years ago.

oceanmotion said,
What annoys me is why did they even bother with WP7 if WP8 underpinnings were their goal, that's the kick in the teeth. They shouldn't have bothered until they got NT on phones as that was what their plan was all along, not WP7. They just wasted two years getting nowhere and flak to go with it. Imagine if they announced their new OS today instead of two years ago.

clearly it wasn't planned this way. the win8 core wasn't ready.

i hope when microsoft introduce the "microsoft tax", the same nincompoop will write an article telling microsoft not to eliminate, but increase it. lmfao.

Here's a thing. I wonder if Microsoft care that, with this announcement, they've not only killed any more sales of WP7 devices, but they probably just hammered the final nail in Nokia's coffin?

I'd be rather surprised if they can survive the inevitable sales slump prior to WP8's release...

FloatingFatMan said,
Here's a thing. I wonder if Microsoft care that, with this announcement, they've not only killed any more sales of WP7 devices, but they probably just hammered the final nail in Nokia's coffin?

I'd be rather surprised if they can survive the inevitable sales slump prior to WP8's release...

You may be right but I'd be surprised if MS and Nokia hadn't planned for this.

I have to say that anything on Windows 7.x isn't going to be "obsolete". It'll still work fine. It'll still let you call people FFS!

testman said,
I have to say that anything on Windows 7.x isn't going to be "obsolete". It'll still work fine. It'll still let you call people FFS!

But it won't run windows phone 8 apps and apps are what smartphones are all about! So they very much will be obsolete

hobsgrg said,

But it won't run windows phone 8 apps and apps are what smartphones are all about! So they very much will be obsolete

there are 100 thousand wp7 apps. how many wp8 apps? how is that "obsolte"? If you're an app developer why would you ignore 99.9% of your base by releasing a wp8 app? except if you need a specific hardware like NFC, there is no reason to do such thing if you like money.

neonspark said,

platform reset isn't fragmentation.

To be fair, the reset will lead to some fragmentation as apps written for WP8 won't run on WP7. However, WP7 apps will run on WP8 so it's a manageable form of fragmentation.

neonspark said,

platform reset isn't fragmentation.

But wasn't Windows Phone 7 a platform reset? What about Kin? Anyone else noticing a trend?

i think this is something they've wanted to do for a long time with the Windows desktop OS. backwards compatibility is a double-edged sword. trying to port WP8 to older devices would mean additional work making it run well on them and in addition to complicating their development of the OS, it might have even ended up to them cutting features they wanted to add.

I really don't like how this article implies legacy code is a bad thing. It's tried, it's tested, it's had its fair share of bugs and they've been fixed. Throwing it all out and starting again is a ridiculous strategy.

They could release an updated version of 7 which includes some of the non-hardware related feature upgrades to keep their older clients happy whilst they phase their devices from 7 to 8.

MothBox said,
They could release an updated version of 7 which includes some of the non-hardware related feature upgrades to keep their older clients happy whilst they phase their devices from 7 to 8.

Isn't that what 7.8 is for?

oliver182 said,

Yep that's why , people just complain with out even knowing all the facts...


One hard fact being that v7.8 won't support Windows Phone 8 apps. That's enough to complain about.

I dont get why people are so angry about it. Would they rather have Microsoft stuck and never expand to new technologies which the current phones are not able to use and thus allow their competitors gain even more of a lead?

Technology is always evolving, new features keep getting developed there was always going to be a point in time when the current gen phones were going to become outdated, WP8 is that time. My phone the HTC Mozart will be about 2 years old by the time WP8 arrives, what features can it make use of? NFC, nope. Multi-core, nope, Skype, nope (no front camera) list goes on.

Would I want Microsoft to keep updating the phone with new security features and performance updates sure, that's why we're getting 7.8, would I expect Microsoft to release WP8 for it, no, dont be daft, it'll probably make it worse with all the software it can't use.

So stop living in the dark ages, and most people who recently bought a nokia lumia would more than lkely not care about WP8, they just wanted that specific phone and those that were considering it but didnt, didn't probably because they knew that WP8 was upcoming.

actually, I don't see me buying a WP8 device even year later. not because I'm furstrated, but instead because I'm happy enough with my first-gen Omnia 7.

well, only if Skype calls on the phone become a common thing, I'll consider. lack of "killer" games because of lack of native code support? I've given up on that long ago, if I want to play a game on portable device, I would have PSP/Vita/3DS for that. it's enough that I listen music on my device all the time when outdoors which slightly abuses battery, but when I tried to kill some time with games I also killed much battery life from the phone. so that concept of all-in-one device didn't work out well without some drammatically new battery tehnology and won't in near future either.

WP7 is not a decade old OS in need of a clean break with legacy devices, it was released 2 years ago replacing an old OS WM6. One can understand the transition from WM6 to WP7, but a reboot of a reboot? HTC HD2 was a promising handset which was not fundamentally different from the first WP7 devices, but its life was cut short because of no upgrade path. The same may hold true for the Lumia devices. Is WP7 to WP8 similar to PowerPC to Intel?

shadowbat said,
WP7 is not a decade old OS in need of a clean break with legacy devices, it was released 2 years ago replacing an old OS WM6. One can understand the transition from WM6 to WP7, but a reboot of a reboot? HTC HD2 was a promising handset which was not fundamentally different from the first WP7 devices, but its life was cut short because of no upgrade path. The same may hold true for the Lumia devices. Is WP7 to WP8 similar to PowerPC to Intel?

I'd say to an extent it is. The CPU is the same ARM as before but the real change is in the GPU. Leaving the core WP8 OS changes aside (going from Windows CE to Windows NT) the Windows Phone 7.x hardware has a GPU that, from what I've read, doesn't support DirectX 11 which is something core to Windows Phone 8.

Even if you did get the upgrade to Windows Phone 8, if such a core feature as the graphics model/driver doesn't have the needed hardware support how will it even run?

shadowbat said,
WP7 is not a decade old OS in need of a clean break with legacy devices, it was released 2 years ago replacing an old OS WM6. One can understand the transition from WM6 to WP7, but a reboot of a reboot? HTC HD2 was a promising handset which was not fundamentally different from the first WP7 devices, but its life was cut short because of no upgrade path. The same may hold true for the Lumia devices. Is WP7 to WP8 similar to PowerPC to Intel?

the CE kernel isn't a match for the NT kernel in windows phone 8. MSFT picked the wrong horse. HOw does Joe Belfiore have a job after such fiasco?

GP007 said,
I'd say to an extent it is. The CPU is the same ARM as before but the real change is in the GPU. Leaving the core WP8 OS changes aside (going from Windows CE to Windows NT) the Windows Phone 7.x hardware has a GPU that, from what I've read, doesn't support DirectX 11 which is something core to Windows Phone 8.

Even if you did get the upgrade to Windows Phone 8, if such a core feature as the graphics model/driver doesn't have the needed hardware support how will it even run?

That is not the only change. A much more significant change is that the new Snapdragon S4 Plus processors have hardware-based security features that the OS takes advantage of to protect things such as the memory boundaries of the sandbox. We could have probably survived with a lower version of DirectX being supported, but we could not survive with a complete lack of security on our existing phones.

pickypg said,
That is not the only change. A much more significant change is that the new Snapdragon S4 Plus processors have hardware-based security features that the OS takes advantage of to protect things such as the memory boundaries of the sandbox. We could have probably survived with a lower version of DirectX being supported, but we could not survive with a complete lack of security on our existing phones.

Seeing how WP8 is their big enterprise play as well then you bring up a very valid point. Though I figure business would get new devices anyways.

GP007 said,
Seeing how WP8 is their big enterprise play as well then you bring up a very valid point. Though I figure business would get new devices anyways.
I suspect that is the main reason that it was added, but even ignoring BitLocker, regular consumers get the added security in the sandbox model due to the hardware security.

I have a first gen WP device and didn't expect it to get upgraded to WP8, but if I just had bought a Lumia, I know I would be royally ****ed about this.

On the bright side: Anyone that thinks they don't need the newest and greatest might be able to get such a Lumia for dirt cheap.

What a terrible article.

Firstly people said the same with the "clean slate" approach of Windows Phone 7, ditching winmo users.

Secondly, you say that it will allow for more powerful hardware. Hello??? Neowin reported supposed leaked specs of HTC WP8 with one purportedly having EXACTLY the same specs as current gen devices.

This article is so short sighted focusing only on specs. Woo WP gets dual core blah blah blah.
No one was complaining about performance previously, sure better specs will mean better games like bringing the Havok engine, but that doesnt mean current phones would slow down WP8.
In fact, Nokia is even working with MS for even lower spec'd/cheaper devices.

Im sure many of that 2% easily dismissed, will not be thanking MS and dont forget they are the ones who have been spreading the good word of WP. Im sure they'll be thinking twice about recommending anything MS to anyone.

So all in all, this "editorial" is a short sighted, poorly written article and using the term "editorial" shouldnt be a free pass to write stuff like this.

the better twin said,
What a terrible article.

Firstly people said the same with the "clean slate" approach of Windows Phone 7, ditching winmo users.

Secondly, you say that it will allow for more powerful hardware. Hello??? Neowin reported supposed leaked specs of HTC WP8 with one purportedly having EXACTLY the same specs as current gen devices.

This article is so short sighted focusing only on specs. Woo WP gets dual core blah blah blah.
No one was complaining about performance previously, sure better specs will mean better games like bringing the Havok engine, but that doesnt mean current phones would slow down WP8.
In fact, Nokia is even working with MS for even lower spec'd/cheaper devices.

Im sure many of that 2% easily dismissed, will not be thanking MS and dont forget they are the ones who have been spreading the good word of WP. Im sure they'll be thinking twice about recommending anything MS to anyone.

So all in all, this "editorial" is a short sighted, poorly written article and using the term "editorial" shouldnt be a free pass to write stuff like this.

good points. betray your best fans and all the best kind of marketing "word of mouth" goes away.

the better twin said,
What a terrible article.

Firstly people said the same with the "clean slate" approach of Windows Phone 7, ditching winmo users.

Secondly, you say that it will allow for more powerful hardware. Hello??? Neowin reported supposed leaked specs of HTC WP8 with one purportedly having EXACTLY the same specs as current gen devices.

This article is so short sighted focusing only on specs. Woo WP gets dual core blah blah blah.
No one was complaining about performance previously, sure better specs will mean better games like bringing the Havok engine, but that doesnt mean current phones would slow down WP8.
In fact, Nokia is even working with MS for even lower spec'd/cheaper devices.

Im sure many of that 2% easily dismissed, will not be thanking MS and dont forget they are the ones who have been spreading the good word of WP. Im sure they'll be thinking twice about recommending anything MS to anyone.

So all in all, this "editorial" is a short sighted, poorly written article and using the term "editorial" shouldnt be a free pass to write stuff like this.

It's not about obvious specs, of course WP8 will also run on single core processors. It's about the underlying hardware base. like directx support, UEFI secure boot, NFC an other hardware elements that current WP don't have

Not having the windows 8 upgrade will not make the WP7 devices less than a phone. It is still one of the best devices around. I understand that WP7 is based on CE while WP8 on NT so an upgrade will be impossible.

parengputik said,
Not having the windows 8 upgrade will not make the WP7 devices less than a phone. It is still one of the best devices around. I understand that WP7 is based on CE while WP8 on NT so an upgrade will be impossible.

Not quite, there is nothing stopping Microsoft from running WP8 on old phones, indeed i think it was rumoured to be running on the Nokia 800. That they chose not to is fine but they could if they wanted to.

parengputik said,
I understand that WP7 is based on CE while WP8 on NT so an upgrade will be impossible.

Back in the days I was able to upgrade my PC from Windows 98 (DOS based) to Windows XP (NT based) just fine. I was able to upgrade my iMac from Mac OS 9 (Classic) to OS X (UNIX) just fine. My current iMac can run Windows 7, OS X and Ubuntu just fine. There were NT builds in the past capable of running on PPC.

So why is it according to you that NT per definition won't be able to run on current phone chipsets just because current Windows Phone is CE based?

.Neo said,

So why is it according to you that NT per definition won't be able to run on current phone chipsets just because current Windows Phone is CE based?

They can probably port it to older phones but if WP8 runs like **** on them, WTF would be the point. That would just **** people off more.

ahhell said,
They can probably port it to older phones but if WP8 runs like **** on them, WTF would be the point. That would just **** people off more.

You have any proof for this or are you just pulling it out of your ass? I think the latter is the case.

Depicus said,

Not quite, there is nothing stopping Microsoft from running WP8 on old phones, indeed i think it was rumoured to be running on the Nokia 800. That they chose not to is fine but they could if they wanted to.

nothing? really? how about support for directx, UEFI, NFC, all hardware related

oliver182 said,

nothing? really? how about support for directx, UEFI, NFC, all hardware related

Android has NFC support but not all phones have it, Windows 8 will have UEFI but not all computer will have it.... can you see where I am going.

Depicus said,

Android has NFC support but not all phones have it, Windows 8 will have UEFI but not all computer will have it.... can you see where I am going.

Yes, and that's why we'll have 7.8, we don't know what software features will be included

One thing I'd also point out, I wasn't sure about this but I'm doing a quick check and I think the main problem with WP8 on older devices is the Adreno GPU. I think the Adreno 200 and 205 which is used in todays WP7.x devices DOESN'T have the needed Direct3D support to run WP8. I think this is the issue and the reason we don't get the update.

The only reason I bought a Lumia 900 is because Microsoft PROMISED that all first-gen phones would upgrade seamlessly to WP8. This is absolute bull****.

ryoran109 said,
The only reason I bought a Lumia 900 is because Microsoft PROMISED that all first-gen phones would upgrade seamlessly to WP8. This is absolute bull****.

They never promised that! There has never been an official line on whether existing devices would get upgraded to WP8 until this week, has only been unofficial reports from "sources"

ryoran109 said,
The only reason I bought a Lumia 900 is because Microsoft PROMISED that all first-gen phones would upgrade seamlessly to WP8. This is absolute bull****.

I am going to have to ask you for a citation on that one.

ryoran109 said,
The only reason I bought a Lumia 900 is because Microsoft PROMISED that all first-gen phones would upgrade seamlessly to WP8. This is absolute bull****.

In all fairness Microsoft didn't promised such a thing.

hobsgrg said,

They never promised that! There has never been an official line on whether existing devices would get upgraded to WP8 until this week, has only been unofficial reports from "sources"

As a gen1.5 owner, (HTC Titan) yeah its disappointing but nowhere were any promises made about upgrades to WP8/Apollo.

Overall, I've been happy with my WP experience and around this time next year will be due a new WP8 handset. I think a lot of people are carrying on around here like it the end of their world, its just a phone!

ngc891 said,

As a gen1.5 owner, (HTC Titan) yeah its disappointing but nowhere were any promises made about upgrades to WP8/Apollo.

Overall, I've been happy with my WP experience and around this time next year will be due a new WP8 handset. I think a lot of people are carrying on around here like it the end of their world, its just a phone!

Have to agree - to those complaining about it, I wouldn't go out and buy a £350-400 phone like the Lumia 900 before researching it thoroughly first... in that case nobody (at least who visits Neowin) should have been in any doubt as to the uncertain future of WP7 phones and upgrades to the next major release.

This is business and technology moves quickly - WP7 users are left with WP7 because that's what Microsoft believe will offer them the best experience on those platforms, if they push WP8 to phones where the experience will be bad because the phones aren't powerful enough or contain all the hardware features WP8 can additionally use, then that's a bad deal, just like it's a bad deal when Apple update old iOS devices with the latest version and cripples those devices... I cannot understand the mentality of having software that barely runs simply so you can run around shouting you have the latest and greatest version number.

stereopixels said,

Have to agree - to those complaining about it, I wouldn't go out and buy a £350-400 phone like the Lumia 900 before researching it thoroughly first... in that case nobody (at least who visits Neowin) should have been in any doubt as to the uncertain future of WP7 phones and upgrades to the next major release.

This is business and technology moves quickly - WP7 users are left with WP7 because that's what Microsoft believe will offer them the best experience on those platforms, if they push WP8 to phones where the experience will be bad because the phones aren't powerful enough or contain all the hardware features WP8 can additionally use, then that's a bad deal, just like it's a bad deal when Apple update old iOS devices with the latest version and cripples those devices... I cannot understand the mentality of having software that barely runs simply so you can run around shouting you have the latest and greatest version number.

Exactly, anyone who really cares about updates should be smart enough to not buy a WP7 around this time...

ryoran109 said,
The only reason I bought a Lumia 900 is because Microsoft PROMISED that all first-gen phones would upgrade seamlessly to WP8. This is absolute bull****.

Can you provide a link to this promise?

Would Apple get a Thank You Editorial as well if iOS 6 wasn't released for the iPhone 4S and new iPad?

.Neo said,
Would Apple get a Thank You Editorial as well if iOS 6 wasn't released for the iPhone 4S and new iPad?

I'd say that'd be a big no.. the usual Microsoft zealots would all rub their hands with glee and point out how Apple were just milking their customers for more money again. As I keep saying, the level of hypocrisy on display by the fanboys just makes my toes curl.

You're right, the level of hypocrisy being displayed here is beyond belief really.

Apple got so much crap from people here on Neowin, mostly from people who don't even own a Mac themselves, just because the bottom line of Intel Macs weren't going to be supported by OS X Mountain Lion. But here we are four months later and people are standing up applauding Microsoft for their decision not to support any of the current phones with Windows Phone 8.

Amazing. Just amazing.

Mystiia said,
Or they're cleverly forcing people to purchase new handsets for the latest software.

Kudos Microsoft.

Well actually I would have to say that Microsoft have their hands tied on this matter. Having phones become outdated and creating a rapid upgrading cycle is a business model that is mainly prevalent within the mobile network industry.

unless the mobile industry has a rapid shift towards a philosophy like the PC ecosystem, where the manufacturers pick and mix the hardware, and the user can install another operating system if they so choose. I don't see this changing any time soon.

But there is always the modding community. When ice cream sandwich gets modded for the Nexus one. I'm modding my phone faster than you can say Candle ja...

Mystiia said,
Or they're cleverly forcing people to purchase new handsets for the latest software.

Kudos Microsoft.

How they are forcing people?? the current phones still will work...

Mystiia said,

"purchase new handsets for the latest software."

they are not pointing a gun to your head... most people are ok with the software they got..

oliver182 said,

they are not pointing a gun to your head... most people are ok with the software they got..

Yeah you're right, **** me, how could I have not seen this until now...

Well, at least you can manually root your phone and install a newer version if you use Android, though there are few apps that absolutely need Android >2.

LauRoman said,
Well, at least you can manually root your phone and install a newer version if you use Android, though there are few apps that absolutely need Android >2.

I'm sure the WP rooting scene will try and maybe succeed in getting WP8 on current phones. If it works then it's another option for people to go with, if they're not scared.

Don't cry about Microsoft performance and how they need to fresh start this fresh start that!!

Better than claiming they are the ****, when it takes little effort to knock em down!!

Microsoft ethos has always been LATE to the GAME, but RIGHT in the GAME.

Don't be surprised if WP8 does do the trick, I mean I'm an android user so I'm not biased here at all however Businesses sometimes need to stop thinking about whining irritating customers who will always say "but we r #1 priority". (general statement, not aimed at anyone here)

Those customers can come and go to Microsoft's eyes so its important for them to make something to make more customers USE than DITCH Microsoft.

IF and this is a huge IF WP and Win8 is a success story, than I wont see anyone crying bout dumping wp7 cos suddenly media's view on wp7 will turn into Vista.

- my 2 cents

How many people are gonna take the risk with them again ?

Most people currently have their Line/OS of choice.. And they have just burned their own base, have to assume at least a percent of those will go away and not return..

This isn't a Vista.. Windows OWNED the market.. so of course 7 was gonna get a fair shake, even after the Vista disaster.. Microsoft do not own the Mobil market, not even close, so why would people look ?

Why would I walk away from Apple and my iPhone for Apple, or from Google ? Sure there are some Android issues with other makers, but I think most of them would move sideways to another maker, rather than to another OS..

What Microsoft is gonna need is two or more generations of products, with good support, good reviews, etc.. Only that will start to get them a base, imho.

Ryoken said,
How many people are gonna take the risk with them again ?

Most people currently have their Line/OS of choice.. And they have just burned their own base, have to assume at least a percent of those will go away and not return..

This isn't a Vista.. Windows OWNED the market.. so of course 7 was gonna get a fair shake, even after the Vista disaster.. Microsoft do not own the Mobil market, not even close, so why would people look ?

Why would I walk away from Apple and my iPhone for Apple, or from Google ? Sure there are some Android issues with other makers, but I think most of them would move sideways to another maker, rather than to another OS..

What Microsoft is gonna need is two or more generations of products, with good support, good reviews, etc.. Only that will start to get them a base, imho.

Most people doesn't even know that they are running wp 7.5..

So the Lumia 900 only announced this year and only released a few months ago gets no update to WP8. Just some crummy halfway house.

The Microsoft enthusiasts can lampoon me as much as they want. I think I've proven on numerous occasions I'm pretty platform agnostic and indeed am waiting for the "right time" to get myself a Windows Phone handset having owned iPhone and Android phones over the last few years.. but I think it's pretty poor form by Microsoft frankly.

How many more times do they need the chance to do a "fresh start" - wasn't that what Windows Phone 7 was all about? So now they need another fresh start on fresh hardware again? Or am I missing the point. If I'd bought a Lumia 900, I'd be pretty upset. In fact I came close to buying a Lumia 800 a few weeks ago and I'm glad I didn't buy that now either!

If Apple did this and deprecated hardware they had released this year, the Apple cynics would be rolling around in the aisles. The level of hypocrisy on display is staggering.

Chicane-UK said,
So the Lumia 900 only announced this year and only released a few months ago gets no update to WP8. Just some crummy halfway house.
actually stopped reading there as its probably allot of crying.
What the hell do you want to do with an incompatible OS on your phone? WP8 will make your phone come to a crawl. (or at least allot slower then WP7.5) as its not really designed for that hardware. The new NT kernel features cannot be taken advantage off, so its just hanging there, being bloated.
They made an update for WP7 where they just ripped out the NT specifics and features the WP7 phones never supported (its not going to magically get an RFC chip, dualcore and removable SD card slot)

Shadowzz said,
actually stopped reading there as its probably allot of crying.
What the hell do you want to do with an incompatible OS on your phone? WP8 will make your phone come to a crawl. (or at least allot slower then WP7.5) as its not really designed for that hardware. The new NT kernel features cannot be taken advantage off, so its just hanging there, being bloated.
They made an update for WP7 where they just ripped out the NT specifics and features the WP7 phones never supported (its not going to magically get an RFC chip, dualcore and removable SD card slot)

Incompatible because Microsoft made it so.

iOS and Android manage to cope with features some phones don't have quite well.

It's surprisingly easy to code round these things

if (has dual core || removable sd card)
{
do stuff
}
else
{
don't do stuff
}


Shadowzz said,
actually stopped reading there as its probably allot of crying.

Thanks for reading my post and giving an insightful response.

WP8 will make your phone come to a crawl. (or at least allot slower then WP7.5) as its not really designed for that hardware

So all new WP8 devices are going to be *significantly* more powerful than the specs in the existing Lumia 900 then are they? Somehow I don't think so.

Chicane-UK said,
So the Lumia 900 only announced this year and only released a few months ago gets no update to WP8. Just some crummy halfway house.

The Microsoft enthusiasts can lampoon me as much as they want. I think I've proven on numerous occasions I'm pretty platform agnostic and indeed am waiting for the "right time" to get myself a Windows Phone handset having owned iPhone and Android phones over the last few years.. but I think it's pretty poor form by Microsoft frankly.

How many more times do they need the chance to do a "fresh start" - wasn't that what Windows Phone 7 was all about? So now they need another fresh start on fresh hardware again? Or am I missing the point. If I'd bought a Lumia 900, I'd be pretty upset. In fact I came close to buying a Lumia 800 a few weeks ago and I'm glad I didn't buy that now either!

If Apple did this and deprecated hardware they had released this year, the Apple cynics would be rolling around in the aisles. The level of hypocrisy on display is staggering.

I actually thought this was a well measured adult way of looking at the current situation. The fact this is the second time the same stunt has been pulled surely doesn`t sit comfortably with the majority.
Lately iv`e read so many posts about Android and fragmentation and how lack of support is attrocious, etc, etc. It`s the nature of the beast when it comes to smartphones and there`s not much that can or will be done about it. They wan`t you to buy a new phone!
So what does the future hold for Microsoft and it`s mobile operating system (oh noes he said mobile not phone), well i still think it`ll struggle to gain any real stranglehold on the current market unless they come in at a competetive price and have that wow factor.
Maybe the live tiles will become the next big must have and will push sales, the trouble is the general public don`t associate Microsoft and mobile phones that`s what needs addressing and why Nokia is so important in this equation...

Chicane-UK said,
So the Lumia 900 only announced this year and only released a few months ago gets no update to WP8. Just some crummy halfway house.

The Microsoft enthusiasts can lampoon me as much as they want. I think I've proven on numerous occasions I'm pretty platform agnostic and indeed am waiting for the "right time" to get myself a Windows Phone handset having owned iPhone and Android phones over the last few years.. but I think it's pretty poor form by Microsoft frankly.

How many more times do they need the chance to do a "fresh start" - wasn't that what Windows Phone 7 was all about? So now they need another fresh start on fresh hardware again? Or am I missing the point. If I'd bought a Lumia 900, I'd be pretty upset. In fact I came close to buying a Lumia 800 a few weeks ago and I'm glad I didn't buy that now either!

If Apple did this and deprecated hardware they had released this year, the Apple cynics would be rolling around in the aisles. The level of hypocrisy on display is staggering.

From where are you going to make work NFC and UEFI secure boot from current hardware?

About Apple Siri wasn't on the Iphone 4 when in fact it used to run on it before apple purchased it.....

oliver182 said,

From where are you going to make work NFC and UEFI secure boot from current hardware?

About Apple Siri wasn't on the Iphone 4 when in fact it used to run on it before apple purchased it.....

So Windows 8 won't work on any computer without UEFI ... no of course it will.

Chicane-UK said,
So the Lumia 900 only announced this year and only released a few months ago gets no update to WP8. Just some crummy halfway house.

The Microsoft enthusiasts can lampoon me as much as they want. I think I've proven on numerous occasions I'm pretty platform agnostic and indeed am waiting for the "right time" to get myself a Windows Phone handset having owned iPhone and Android phones over the last few years.. but I think it's pretty poor form by Microsoft frankly.

How many more times do they need the chance to do a "fresh start" - wasn't that what Windows Phone 7 was all about? So now they need another fresh start on fresh hardware again? Or am I missing the point. If I'd bought a Lumia 900, I'd be pretty upset. In fact I came close to buying a Lumia 800 a few weeks ago and I'm glad I didn't buy that now either!

If Apple did this and deprecated hardware they had released this year, the Apple cynics would be rolling around in the aisles. The level of hypocrisy on display is staggering.

This.

It wasn't that long ago that I was reading here about how WP had solved the fragmentation problem and that the single-core hardware wasn't an impediment. Now fragmentation is a good thing because the single-core requirement would otherwise be holding the OS back.

(Not trying to be a hater...I've seriously considered the HD7 and Lumia 900, which are in the same boat: good phones who run OSes that were deprecated not long after they were released)

oliver182 said,

About Apple Siri wasn't on the Iphone 4 when in fact it used to run on it before apple purchased it.....

You talk about one minor, novelty feature not being available as a comparison to the ENTIRE operating system being unavailable on the device.

I'm not going to defend Apple on Siri - it was clearly a marketing ploy to try and make people want the iPhone 4S, and I'm quite sure Siri would work just fine on a regular iPhone 4. But Apple have already been hauled over the coals on that one on plenty of occasions - this discussion is about Microsoft.

Wasn't it only a week ago when the WP7 fanboys on here were slagging off Android OEMs for not updating and Apple for alienating the old iPad for iOS6? They were beating the drum about how all phones were receiving all upgrades.

Now the entire inventory of WP7 hardware has been dropped at once.

JohnnyLemonhead said,
Wasn't it only a week ago when the WP7 fanboys on here were slagging off Android OEMs for not updating and Apple for alienating the old iPad for iOS6? They were beating the drum about how all phones were receiving all upgrades.

Now the entire inventory of WP7 hardware has been dropped at once.


Except it hasn't, because the gen 1's are getting receiving updates...

JohnnyLemonhead said,
Wasn't it only a week ago when the WP7 fanboys on here were slagging off Android OEMs for not updating and Apple for alienating the old iPad for iOS6? They were beating the drum about how all phones were receiving all upgrades.

Now the entire inventory of WP7 hardware has been dropped at once.


So true. I don't see why anyone would even want to buy a WP7 phone now.

StarLion said,

Except it hasn't, because the gen 1's are getting receiving updates...

Exactly. I don't see the big deal honestly. If the update required a hardware element that wasn't there, it wouldn't work anyway. Many of the features already announced for WP8 are hardware features. So, 7.8 makes sense. We get new features that our phones can support without things not working. It's no different from what Apple does (Which I have always supported as a good way of handling updates) except with different version numbers. I just don't see what the big deal is...

M_Lyons10 said,

Exactly. I don't see the big deal honestly. If the update required a hardware element that wasn't there, it wouldn't work anyway. Many of the features already announced for WP8 are hardware features. So, 7.8 makes sense. We get new features that our phones can support without things not working. It's no different from what Apple does (Which I have always supported as a good way of handling updates) except with different version numbers. I just don't see what the big deal is...

Yep... The way I see it, WP7.8 is being done strictly out of courtesy to loyal customers. MS is not going to sell any more WP7 devices between now and the WP8 launch, so there's no value in spending time on this update. They're not making anything off it. When does Android roll out courtesy updates to incompatible devices (or even slightly older devices that ARE compatible)? Answer: Never.

JohnnyLemonhead said,
Wasn't it only a week ago when the WP7 fanboys on here were slagging off Android OEMs for not updating and Apple for alienating the old iPad for iOS6? They were beating the drum about how all phones were receiving all upgrades.

Now the entire inventory of WP7 hardware has been dropped at once.

Just tell me, how would you support new features that require new hardware??

We'll have 7.8 with yet to see software features that are possible on current hardware.

Meh, probably a good thing as the article suggests, but it still sucks since in the real world money is hard to spend on stuff like this when food/fuel is so expensive now days.

SPARTdAN said,
Meh, probably a good thing as the article suggests, but it still sucks since in the real world money is hard to spend on stuff like this when food/fuel is so expensive now days.

I, on the other hand, think its hard to spend money on food/fuel when owning the latest technology is so much more fulfilling.

We still don't know whats coming on wp7.8... if tango can multitask Skype can too... if whatsapp and nokia music uses zune to multitask in the phone Skype can do it too... its up to Microsoft that decides what should multitask or not... same case with wp8. my friends android cannot run many of the apps... I have a lumia 900... and am happy because I wont like to get the first phones that are coming with windows 8 I like to get the second generation. my phone is 2 months old and I will upgrade next year... lets see what nokia will bring to the table.

"occupy 2% of the market?"

How many of that 2% won't buy another WP due to this? When you've got only a small following it's a gamble to potentially alienate them.

"with a promised 18 months of support."

So if I buy a new phone on a 2 year contract on day one they won't even support it for that long, and they say this quote like they're proud of it?

kravex said,
"occupy 2% of the market?"

How many of that 2% won't buy another WP due to this? When you've got only a small following it's a gamble to potentially alienate them.

"with a promised 18 months of support."

I was one of those people until I calmed down and realised it really is for the best.

So if I buy a new phone on a 2 year contract on day one they won't even support it for that long, and they say this quote like they're proud of it?


kravex said,
"occupy 2% of the market?"

How many of that 2% won't buy another WP due to this? When you've got only a small following it's a gamble to potentially alienate them.

"with a promised 18 months of support."

So if I buy a new phone on a 2 year contract on day one they won't even support it for that long, and they say this quote like they're proud of it?

be sure wp9 will come on 19th month

kravex said,
"occupy 2% of the market?"

How many of that 2% won't buy another WP due to this? When you've got only a small following it's a gamble to potentially alienate them.

"with a promised 18 months of support."

So if I buy a new phone on a 2 year contract on day one they won't even support it for that long, and they say this quote like they're proud of it?

I think it's less of a gamble as people think it is. Many of that 2% are gen 1 owners, like myself. We're due for a new phone, it's going to be 2 years. The Lumia 900 owners are the ones that will feel this more but I believe that all the extra free exclusive apps Nokia has added and is adding to the Lumia range will help ease the "pain". Also, and I've said this a few times here and there, I question how much the majority of phone buyers really care about the OS version on their device? We've seen a number of Android phones shipping with v2.2 or 2.3 as brand new and they get picked up. If it works for them as they want, expect, they really don't think twice about future free updates.

On a side note, if it is possible to do I think we'll see, maybe, ROMs for WP8 for older phones. People have been flashing on the WP side for a year now and I don't think this will change. WIll it be possible without the OEMs doing drivers for WP8 though? That's the issue, maybe the generic WP8 drivers, if any, won't cut it on current phones and the performance won't be worth it?

coth said,

be sure wp9 will come on 19th month

Even if it does, the core isn't going to change again, so they'll support WP8 hardware upgrading to WP9. If you should ask one thing it should really be "will the carriers allow it?" I bet you they won't.

Oh and btw, that's now the quote as MS said it, they said "at least 18 months of guaranteed support from the time you buy your device". For those wondering it's not 18 months from the time WP8 ships. So in other words if you buy a phone this time next year and WP9 is coming in 4 months you'll get it, right?

GP007 said,

I think it's less of a gamble as people think it is. Many of that 2% are gen 1 owners, like myself. We're due for a new phone, it's going to be 2 years. The Lumia 900 owners are the ones that will feel this more but I believe that all the extra free exclusive apps Nokia has added and is adding to the Lumia range will help ease the "pain". Also, and I've said this a few times here and there, I question how much the majority of phone buyers really care about the OS version on their device? We've seen a number of Android phones shipping with v2.2 or 2.3 as brand new and they get picked up. If it works for them as they want, expect, they really don't think twice about future free updates.

On a side note, if it is possible to do I think we'll see, maybe, ROMs for WP8 for older phones. People have been flashing on the WP side for a year now and I don't think this will change. WIll it be possible without the OEMs doing drivers for WP8 though? That's the issue, maybe the generic WP8 drivers, if any, won't cut it on current phones and the performance won't be worth it?

While I agree that the vast majority of people do not care about OS versions by itself they would care, and a lot, about functionalities.
To give you an example people like my brother do not care if the OS is called 7, 8 or 9 but he cares about being unable to use Skype as he was able to use with his previous device.
Also but this is not referred to you I wonder where are now all those zealots trying to label as trolls or Neanderthal specimen users that complained about the lack of removable storage because the cloud was the future and local storage was a relic of the past.
Personally I will buy a WP8 device because I feel that finally MS came out with a worth successor of WM devices.
I, among others, stated long ago that WP7 was a stopgap and the real thing was the next OS; what happened hurts because three months agoI had to replace my HD7 with a Lumia 800 because the former broke but as Shakespeare said:
"All's well that ends well"
Granted Nokia could have exerted some decency and not come out with the silly ad about beta testing being over.......

Fritzly said,

While I agree that the vast majority of people do not care about OS versions by itself they would care, and a lot, about functionalities.
To give you an example people like my brother do not care if the OS is called 7, 8 or 9 but he cares about being unable to use Skype as he was able to use with his previous device.
Also but this is not referred to you I wonder where are now all those zealots trying to label as trolls or Neanderthal specimen users that complained about the lack of removable storage because the cloud was the future and local storage was a relic of the past.
Personally I will buy a WP8 device because I feel that finally MS came out with a worth successor of WM devices.
I, among others, stated long ago that WP7 was a stopgap and the real thing was the next OS; what happened hurts because three months agoI had to replace my HD7 with a Lumia 800 because the former broke but as Shakespeare said:
"All's well that ends well"
Granted Nokia could have exerted some decency and not come out with the silly ad about beta testing being over.......

Looking into it a bit more I think the reason is also a technical one. Current WP7.x devices have Adreno 200 and 205 GPUs. The problem with this, from what I've seen, is that they don't support DirectX 11, something WP8 is based on and uses for lots of things. I think that's the problem here. New WP8 devices will be coming with the new Snapdragon S4 and the Adreno 3xx GPU that does support it. I think that makes all the difference in the end.

kravex said,
"occupy 2% of the market?"

How many of that 2% won't buy another WP due to this? When you've got only a small following it's a gamble to potentially alienate them.

"with a promised 18 months of support."

So if I buy a new phone on a 2 year contract on day one they won't even support it for that long, and they say this quote like they're proud of it?

Most of those 2% don't know what an update even is.

all of those 2 % bought WP8 because it's an excellent OS, with far greater usability than the competition, better information flow, and faster and smoother. So they'll buy it.

and they still get 7.8. which is essentially 8 for old phones. in the same way old iPhones get limited updates of iOS.

HawkMan said,

and they still get 7.8. which is essentially 8 for old phones. in the same way old iPhones get limited updates of iOS.


I understand you love MS and would do anything to defend them but please stop saying this. It simply isnt true. Being cut off from the new app store essentially kills all current phones. It is completely different to anything the competition does so stop comparing them.

the better twin said,

I understand you love MS and would do anything to defend them but please stop saying this. It simply isnt true. Being cut off from the new app store essentially kills all current phones. It is completely different to anything the competition does so stop comparing them.

You're not cut out of the store, even with 7.8. WP8 still supports the same mangaed code model WP7.x does, now if a dev decided to write an app/game that supports on WP8 and not 7.x devices that's his/her choice.

We've already seen how different hardware can effect things even on the same OS, look at the apps that don't run on the new lower end 256MB Tango WP7.5 devices for example. That's a simple developer issue and even then they don't feel the need to correct it for the most part. Even if we did get WP8 what would stop devs from just targeting the new dual core 1GB ram WP8 devices and leave older "underpowered" devices out in the cold? Nothing. And it would happen regardless, we see it happen on other platforms as well. One last thing, current WP7.x devices don't, at least from what I've seen, have the needed GPU support for DX on WP8. That means we'd get short changed regardless yet again.

Say we did get WP8 and the new game used full DX11 on the new WP8 hardware, then what happens to older devices? Oh wait, the game can't run on your phone, sorry. The end result would be the same thing yet again, upgrade or no upgrade. It's the sad truth.

GP007 said,

Looking into it a bit more I think the reason is also a technical one. Current WP7.x devices have Adreno 200 and 205 GPUs. The problem with this, from what I've seen, is that they don't support DirectX 11, something WP8 is based on and uses for lots of things. I think that's the problem here. New WP8 devices will be coming with the new Snapdragon S4 and the Adreno 3xx GPU that does support it. I think that makes all the difference in the end.

Yes, supposedly Snapdragon S4 Plus (Krait) MSM 8960.......... for now; quad-core will follow.

kravex said,
"occupy 2% of the market?"

How many of that 2% won't buy another WP due to this? When you've got only a small following it's a gamble to potentially alienate them.

"with a promised 18 months of support."

So if I buy a new phone on a 2 year contract on day one they won't even support it for that long, and they say this quote like they're proud of it?

First, this was the best way of handling this. Look at what was announced. It was all hardware features. There will I'm sure be other features, and maybe they'll come to 7.8, but you can't exactly expect a software update to miraculously add hardware features... So, as much as I'd love WP8 myself, I realize that what they are doing is the best method. They are giving us 7.8 which should include as much as they can provide support for, and then WP8 can focus on all of these features that are hardware requirements and wouldn't be in all phones. It works out the best for everybody.

And they said "AT LEAST 18 months". I see your point, but they said that they are working region by region based on standard contract terms to try to support phones with updates through the length of these terms. They said that specifically. So, we should be fine.

kravex said,
"occupy 2% of the market?"

How many of that 2% won't buy another WP due to this? When you've got only a small following it's a gamble to potentially alienate them.

I dont mind. I've been alienated, but I'm really excited for the new OS and I will definitely be buying a Lumia 1000 or whatever they come out with next.

I've now accepted this same conclusion, its the best way forward.
Sure I'm pi**ed I won't get to run VoiP apps properly on my lumia 800, but that's just me wanting something and not getting it, in the grand scheme of things I'll be better off when I do upgrade.

duddit2 said,
I've now accepted this same conclusion, its the best way forward.
Sure I'm pi**ed I won't get to run VoiP apps properly on my lumia 800, but that's just me wanting something and not getting it, in the grand scheme of things I'll be better off when I do upgrade.

Agreed. I'm in the same boat. I thought I'd be more upset than I am honestly, but it is the best path. We still get an update that runs on our hardware without requiring things that our hardware just doesn't have. Sounds like a good tradeoff to me.

duddit2 said,
I've now accepted this same conclusion, its the best way forward.
Sure I'm pi**ed I won't get to run VoiP apps properly on my lumia 800, but that's just me wanting something and not getting it, in the grand scheme of things I'll be better off when I do upgrade.

I disagree. Some of the modern Windows Phone hardware probably could run WP8 just fine. I understand that it is not Microsoft's job to test every device under the sun, but if the manufacture wants to do the work of putting an older phone through whatever program certifies it for WP8 they should be able to. That being said...I highly doubt any company would spend money getting an older product to compete with their newer ones.

Here's a question for you Tim. Would you want update (7.8) that make current gen phone better? Oooorr an upgrade to WP8 that barely work due to core changes that current gen hardware can't handle well?

flexkeyboard said,
Here's a question for you Tim. Would you want update (7.8) that make current gen phone better? Oooorr an upgrade to WP8 that barely work due to core changes that current gen hardware can't handle well?

Agreed. Originally I was a big proponent of the current phones getting an update path as I do think it makes sense. But with WP8 being so hardware focused, that's just not really possible. I never imagined it would be so hardware focused honestly. So, 7.8 is a good update path at this point and I think this definitely makes the most sense for users. If I installed an update and it didn't run well I'd want to go back anyway. Now we get some of the new features without sacrificing user experience. Sounds good to me.

flexkeyboard said,
Here's a question for you Tim. Would you want update (7.8) that make current gen phone better? Oooorr an upgrade to WP8 that barely work due to core changes that current gen hardware can't handle well?

So we should be thanking Microsoft for giving us a choice between being punched in the face or being punched in the gut?

Deviate_X said,
Whats the difference between 8 and 7.8 ?

wp7.8 wont have any of the hardware features of wp8, because they wouldnt get them anyway, NFC, multicore, secure SIM, new resolutions etc.
these are all features enabled by the "shared core" so wp7.8 wont get that either, which means it wont get native code or the apps written to take advantage of any of this.

though 7.8 will still get all the features of 8 that dont require the NT kernel, the features havent been discussed yet so time will tell how different they are

Sorry but that's just wrong, more features will be present in 7.8. However those features are yet to be announced.

Weissmeister said,

The right question is "What do they have in common?". And the answer is "It's only the start screen".

Deviate_X said,
Whats the difference between 8 and 7.8 ?

The hardware and applications it supports, too bad Microsoft thinks that's enough to change the version number (unlike Apple).

Weissmeister said,

The right question is "What do they have in common?". And the answer is "It's only the start screen".

Right now it's only the Start Screen, Tile Customisation and Windows Update. But Microsoft has yet to reveal what other 8.0 features it will include in 7.8. I very much doubt this is the complete list.

Cøi said,

The hardware and applications it supports, too bad Microsoft thinks that's enough to change the version number (unlike Apple).
So Apple releases a new iOS that has new hardware support and new apps and it doesn't change version numbers? Well then what exactly do they use to determine when to change the versions from iOS3 to iOS4 to 5 to 6? Is it just because they felt like it? Or maybe they flipped a coin that morning? Nah, I have to believe they increment their versions when releasing new features and/or hardware.

Edited by Tim Dawg, Jun 22 2012, 9:13am :

Tim Dawg said,
So Apple releases a new iOS that has new hardware support and new apps and it doesn't change version numbers? Well then what exactly do they use to determine when to change the versions from iOS3 to iOS4 to 5 to 6? Is it just because they felt like it? Or maybe they flipped a coin that morning? Nah, I have to believe they increment their versions when releasing new features and/or hardware.

Yeah, I'd have to agree. I don't know how anyone could think they don't version the software based on new features... Clearly that would just be craziness and only Microsoft does this...

As to the difference between 7.8 and 8, Microsoft only gave a tidbit of what was even in 8. They said in the event that they would be revealing more of the features later on down the line, and I think as they do that we should get a better idea of what is going to be in 7.8.

Cøi said,

The hardware and applications it supports, too bad Microsoft thinks that's enough to change the version number (unlike Apple).

What are you talking about?! It changed the entire core of the OS from CE to NT. And for your information, they added new hardware with Mango (FF Cameras) and Tango (NFC) without updating the model number.

CtrlShift said,

Right now it's only the Start Screen, Tile Customisation and Windows Update. But Microsoft has yet to reveal what other 8.0 features it will include in 7.8. I very much doubt this is the complete list.

It may not be complete, but I wouldn't count on more than a handful of additional features. My best guess is that changes in 7.8 will mostly be under the covers in the form of tweaks to require a minimum number of steps to make a 7.8 app run in 8.x and vice a versa.

Cøi said,

The hardware and applications it supports, too bad Microsoft thinks that's enough to change the version number (unlike Apple).

It makes sense to use different version numbers because the two versions are running on top of two completely different versions of Windows. WP8 runs on the NT kernel while WP7.8 still runs on WinCE.

Deviate_X said,
Whats the difference between 8 and 7.8 ?

Most of the features are hardware specific, but the main difference is WP8 apps won't work on WP7, but WP7 apps will work on WP8.

Eesh, could you imagine if Apple released iOS 6 without iPhone 4 support? There's no way everyone would be kissing Apple's ass in the way people are doing this for Microsoft. Sure, a lot of the features in WP8 are hardware-based, but there's going to be a *lot* of stuff in there that'd be nice on current-generation phones too - especially the ability to run application written for the new kernel.

iKenndac said,
Eesh, could you imagine if Apple released iOS 6 without iPhone 4 support? There's no way everyone would be kissing Apple's ass in the way people are doing this for Microsoft. Sure, a lot of the features in WP8 are hardware-based, but there's going to be a *lot* of stuff in there that'd be nice on current-generation phones too - especially the ability to run application written for the new kernel.

Does iPhone only have 2% of the market?

Do iPhone users complain about the newer OSes slowing down the older phones?

I was going to post it iKenn but.. I knew it wouldn't make any difference anyway.

Certain companies get special treatment no matter how much they **** on peoples faces.

iKenndac said,
Eesh, could you imagine if Apple released iOS 6 without iPhone 4 support? There's no way everyone would be kissing Apple's ass in the way people are doing this for Microsoft. Sure, a lot of the features in WP8 are hardware-based, but there's going to be a *lot* of stuff in there that'd be nice on current-generation phones too - especially the ability to run application written for the new kernel.

Sure it sucks but it's not just a matter of MS supporting it, are the OEMs going to? Will the carriers even allow it? You guys make it sound so clear cut when it's probably nothing of the sort I bet. AT&T has held back even minor bug fix updates so far what do you think they'll do for a full WP8 update? You'll end up having to buy a new phone regardless.

Oh and if Apple was going to totally change the core of iOS you can bet your but they'd draw the line in the sand and cut support for older devices like this. The fact is iOS is still the same at the core level unlike WP8 which isn't.

Miuku. said,
Certain companies get special treatment no matter how much they **** on peoples faces.

Are you kidding? This is Microsoft. They never get special treatment.

Besides, they're usually obsessed with backwards compatibility. What's going on now is a rare exception. This won't be a decision Microsoft has taken lightly. There would have to be an extremely good reason for them to not allow millions of their users to have access to their new ecosystem, and there is!

And that's why I don't see how your comment makes sense.

Meph said,

Are you kidding? This is Microsoft. They never get special treatment.

Besides, they're usually obsessed with backwards compatibility. What's going on now is a rare exception. This won't be a decision Microsoft has taken lightly. There would have to be an extremely good reason for them to not allow millions of their users to have access to their new ecosystem, and there is!

And that's why I don't see how your comment makes sense.

This is neoWIN.... It does get a special treatment here...

iKenndac said,
Eesh, could you imagine if Apple released iOS 6 without iPhone 4 support?

Isn't that why there's a WP 7.8? iOS support on older devices is quite good but I don't think iOS 5 works on the iPhone 3? (does on 3S)

Neobond said,

Isn't that why there's a WP 7.8? iOS support on older devices is quite good but I don't think iOS 5 works on the iPhone 3? (does on 3S)


It doesn't, but when iOS 5 was released the iPhone 3G was a number of years old and not sold any more.

GP007 said,

Oh and if Apple was going to totally change the core of iOS you can bet your but they'd draw the line in the sand and cut support for older devices like this. The fact is iOS is still the same at the core level unlike WP8 which isn't.

Oh, absolutely. However, I imagine they wouldn't cut out devices that went on sale three months before the announcement.

tanjiajun_34 said,
This is neoWIN.... It does get a special treatment here...

... Really ? are you blind ? the only one getting special treatment around here is Apple in general. MS has to fight for any praise they get here.

HawkMan said,
... Really ? are you blind ? the only one getting special treatment around here is Apple in general. MS has to fight for any praise they get here.

Definitely, that's why someone not being able to buy a tablet gets a 100+ response thread screaming racism and Microsoft gets praised for screwing everyone on an editorial.

Miuku. said,

Definitely, that's why someone not being able to buy a tablet gets a 100+ response thread screaming racism...
Huh? What are you talking about? Seriously, a 100+ responses accusing racism on Neowin? I hadn't seen that one yet.

HawkMan said,

... Really ? are you blind ? the only one getting special treatment around here is Apple in general. MS has to fight for any praise they get here.

Microsoft is constantly praised on neowin, who are you trying to fool?

randomevent said,

Do iPhone users complain about the newer OSes slowing down the older phones?

Yes, i'm the first to complain about the new OS that slowing my iPhone. it's an Apple signed sneaky way of marketing.

iKenndac said,
Eesh, could you imagine if Apple released iOS 6 without iPhone 4 support? There's no way everyone would be kissing Apple's ass in the way people are doing this for Microsoft. Sure, a lot of the features in WP8 are hardware-based, but there's going to be a *lot* of stuff in there that'd be nice on current-generation phones too - especially the ability to run application written for the new kernel.

I am hoping that more software features than the start screen do come in 7.8. I doubt seriously the kernel and all of those improvements would come as that is kind of in keeping with all of the reasoning for not making this update available to WP7 phones. But I am hoping that some of the new features not reliant on the kernel will make it. Honestly though, when I was thinking about what might come in WP8, I never considered that it would bring quite so many hardware features to the platform. That kind of makes sense as to why they wouldn't allow an update path as half of it wouldn't work anyway and they would have to make arrangements for situations where it was not supported. I think this makes a lot of sense and is a good compromise, bringing some stuff in 7.8 for current users.

Meph said,

Are you kidding? This is Microsoft. They never get special treatment.

Besides, they're usually obsessed with backwards compatibility. What's going on now is a rare exception. This won't be a decision Microsoft has taken lightly. There would have to be an extremely good reason for them to not allow millions of their users to have access to their new ecosystem, and there is!

And that's why I don't see how your comment makes sense.

Agreed. That comment was just crazy. lol

iKenndac said,

It doesn't, but when iOS 5 was released the iPhone 3G was a number of years old and not sold any more.

While iOS6 will go on the iPhone 3GS and 4, it won't have all of the new features. Kinda like WP 7.8, it's for the older devices, but it doesn't have all of the new features. This is basically just naming symantics.

Meph said,

Are you kidding? This is Microsoft. They never get special treatment.

Besides, they're usually obsessed with backwards compatibility. What's going on now is a rare exception. This won't be a decision Microsoft has taken lightly. There would have to be an extremely good reason for them to not allow millions of their users to have access to their new ecosystem, and there is!

And that's why I don't see how your comment makes sense.

Apparently not in Mobile department. they entirely killed Mobile 6.x and honestly some of the apps were pretty decent comparing to many crappy apps in WP7 and now they are dumping WP7 well in this case they will keep apps for WP8

iKenndac said,
Eesh, could you imagine if Apple released iOS 6 without iPhone 4 support? There's no way everyone would be kissing Apple's ass in the way people are doing this for Microsoft. Sure, a lot of the features in WP8 are hardware-based, but there's going to be a *lot* of stuff in there that'd be nice on current-generation phones too - especially the ability to run application written for the new kernel.

Does the Iphone 4 has Siri? Nope...

Miuku. said,

Definitely, that's why someone not being able to buy a tablet gets a 100+ response thread screaming racism and Microsoft gets praised for screwing everyone on an editorial.

I think the difference here though is that Windows Phone 7 is still in its infancy. Hell, between the low marketshare and the carriers that have chosen not to support it much until WP8 says it all. While it sucks for current Windows Phone users, Microsoft really needs to push the OS further if they want to get more carriers on board with them, and bring home a better product for the consumers. As it stands, there's no way Microsoft could get me off iOS with WP7.

For those that have considered Windows Phone 7(.x whatever the hell) to be good enough to jump on board with it right now, the phones are still decent so I don't see much of a problem here either. Besides, if WP8 means we'll finally be able to get some DECENT phones (Nokia aside), then I welcome it fully...

Now if Apple did this, yes, they'd get a lot of heat because iOS is already established, supported, and people are familiar with their release cycle. I still like iOS better than any other mobile OS mind you, but Windows Phone isn't bad and I'd like for them to succeed because... if things with Apple go sour, I'd like Windows Phone to actually be an option. (not a fan of Android)

iKenndac said,

It doesn't, but when iOS 5 was released the iPhone 3G was a number of years old and not sold any more.

That's actually untrue. iOS5 was never offered for iPhone 3G. It was offered for iPhone 3GS in mid 2011 when the 3GS was two years old. The 3GS is now three years old and will actually receive iOS 6, albeit without siri and the new 3D maps.

Also, the 3GS is still being sold (though you're correct that the 3G is no longer sold).

This is what happens when a company like apple executes superior product planning. I realize that MS is attempting to unify kernels and leapfrog Apple on the pc and tablet side, but it does still leave loyal WP7 users holding the bag. It is the right decision, though I think MS should resolve, commit and communicate TODAY that WP 7.8 will eventually have more than just the new start screen. For example, data smart, Skydrive integration, voice/ conversations with apps, etc.

iKenndac said,

It doesn't, but when iOS 5 was released the iPhone 3G was a number of years old and not sold any more.

That's actually untrue. iOS5 was never offered for iPhone 3G. It was offered for iPhone 3GS in mid 2011 when the 3GS was two years old. The 3GS is now three years old and will actually receive iOS 6, albeit without siri and the new 3D maps.

Also, the 3GS is still being sold for $0.99 on contract at AT&T (though you're correct that the 3G is no longer sold).

petrolly said,

That's actually untrue. iOS5 was never offered for iPhone 3G. It was offered for iPhone 3GS in mid 2011 when the 3GS was two years old. The 3GS is now three years old and will actually receive iOS 6, albeit without siri and the new 3D maps.

Also, the 3GS is still being sold (though you're correct that the 3G is no longer sold).

This is what happens when a company like apple executes superior product planning. I realize that MS is attempting to unify kernels and leapfrog Apple on the pc and tablet side, but it does still leave loyal WP7 users holding the bag. It is the right decision, though I think MS should resolve, commit and communicate TODAY that WP 7.8 will eventually have more than just the new start screen. For example, data smart, Skydrive integration, voice/ conversations with apps, etc.


I misread your comment, iKenndac, sorry about that. I thought you were talking about the 3GS

iKenndac said,
Eesh, could you imagine if Apple released iOS 6 without iPhone 4 support? There's no way everyone would be kissing Apple's ass in the way people are doing this for Microsoft. Sure, a lot of the features in WP8 are hardware-based, but there's going to be a *lot* of stuff in there that'd be nice on current-generation phones too - especially the ability to run application written for the new kernel.

This is what happens when a company like apple executes superior product planning, while not planning to merge platforms; I realize that MS is attempting to unify kernels and leapfrog Apple on the pc and tablet side, but it does still leave loyal WP7 users holding the bag. It is the right decision given poor prior planning, though I think MS should resolve, commit and communicate TODAY that WP 7.8 will eventually have more than just the new start screen. For example, data smart, Skydrive integration, voice/ conversations with apps, etc.

iKenndac said,
Eesh, could you imagine if Apple released iOS 6 without iPhone 4 support? There's no way everyone would be kissing Apple's ass in the way people are doing this for Microsoft.

After hanging around Mac Rumors for 2 years, I can assure you many people would, I've seen people on there applauding Apple for making sure OS X won't work on hardware that's barely a few years old.

McKay said,

After hanging around Mac Rumors for 2 years, I can assure you many people would, I've seen people on there applauding Apple for making sure OS X won't work on hardware that's barely a few years old.

That's Mac Rumors though and certainly not everyone.

dead.cell said,

That's Mac Rumors though and certainly not everyone.

Yeah, don't let Mac Rumors drag down the rest of us! :-P