Gabe Newell: Windows 8 will make people "rage quit computing"

Valve founder Gabe Newell stirred up a hornet's nest of discussion a few weeks ago when he stated his opinion that Windows 8 would be "a catastrophe for everyone in the PC space." Since then, his opinion on Microsoft's next OS hasn't changed, but he does admit that he hopes he's wrong.

In a preview of the next episode of Spike TV's GTTV television show (to be shown in the US early on Friday morning), Newell is asked what people might think when they start using Windows 8. He answers, "I think that they are going to find that they hate it. I think that they will basically rage quit computing after they use it." He added, "Things that used to be incredibly simple are now very complicated and hard."

Newell does hold out hope that his views could be off base. He says, "I hope I'm wrong. If I am wrong we will actually end up making more money in the 12 months that follow Windows 8 shipping than if I am right. I am just worried that I am right."

Valve is already trying to port its PC game download service, as well as games themselves, to Linux. The company also revealed it will start offering non-gaming PC software on Steam on September 5th, in what seems like a direct response to Microsoft and the Windows Store feature in Windows 8.

Source: GTTV.com video

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I've tried numerous builds (both 32-biit and 64-bit).
The Win 8 RTM OS does need one to make an effort to learn about the new features.
Win 8 does respond faster than Win 7, and I'll give it a very fair trial for 90 days.
Having said that, my Dell N4110 runs well with several tweaks, and I may not upgrade.
Come on folks, and try the RTM before letting "expert reviewers" make a decision for you.
Show some independence for once in your lives!

If your computer is, in essence, an expensive toy; then Windows-8 is just the thing. Otherwise, stick with Windows-7, and hope that MS will fix the mess with Windows-9 ( or possible via SP-1).

I agree with the title of this article. My mom is still trying to learn windows 7 and can get frustrated quite often... windows 8 will possibly push her to the point of rage quitting

jasonon said,
I agree with the title of this article. My mom is still trying to learn windows 7 and can get frustrated quite often... windows 8 will possibly push her to the point of rage quitting

Or will be easier... I moved my father from XP on an OLD computer (slugish) to 8 with a laptop with ssd (i used to use for work).
I think he never was so happy with a computer before

jasonon said,
I agree with the title of this article. My mom is still trying to learn windows 7 and can get frustrated quite often... windows 8 will possibly push her to the point of rage quitting

I am 72 and if I can learn, then so can your Mom....spend some time with her on the PC and teach her the ins and outs of the OS....REMEMBER, you too will be "older and more set in your ways" one day!

Windows Store is not there to compete STEAM and it will never compete STEAM. You guys forgot there is Origin and UbiStore, and RockStar Store too. Windows Store has no value for PC Desktop Market therefore is not and will never compete all these other ones. I don't think Microsoft attempt to have Windows Store is to compete Steam but to promote Metro and new Metro Apps. It is a thing which got moved from Windows Phone and Tablet Eco System to completely different set of devices where for example Desktop and Phone have nothing in common to begin with. One is PC device, and other PM (Personal Mobile). Unfortunately MS doesn't see it that way ultimately driving Windows eco system into soon to be the biggest failure or the biggest success.

Speaking of Windows 8 as whole, I will just say that Windows 7 provides everything i need and i don't see anything better out there.

Windows 8 is less in so many things than Windows 7

No gadgets
No Game Explorer
No Aero Transp.
No DVD Support
No Media Center
Start Screen is less than Start Menu is so many ways. Btw Start Menu has ability to pin thing to Start as well so just you know.
No recent list
Whole another useless layer on top of Windows Desktop which absolutely has no value

Why would i go through hussle of using newegg Metro App and get limited view of things there when i can stay on Desktop, and get full rich experience on half of the screen thus not altering any workflow i had on other half of the screen.

People who like Windows 8 and Metro don't do anything on computer and they have no clue about programming, designing or being productive.

Windows 7 is productive OS but at the same time does entertainment and gaming as well.

Saying that Windows 8 is anothe Vista is unfair toward Vista cause Vista was a good operating system with problems of different nature.

Windows 8 performs well but everything else is just giberish...

Edited by IRock77, Aug 17 2012, 5:27pm :

Gabe can STFU
Tried of this crap before release

The people will speak on how they like Win8 Gabe can shut up till then.

People used to think hitting 'start' to shut down was stupid, that was mitigated with the orb.

Now even after years of using lots of OS's (os2, linux, mac, osx, zeta) I find it ridiculous how hidden away the win8 shut down options are.

yakumo said,
People used to think hitting 'start' to shut down was stupid, that was mitigated with the orb.

Now even after years of using lots of OS's (os2, linux, mac, osx, zeta) I find it ridiculous how hidden away the win8 shut down options are.


I usually choose my OS due to its ability to be shut off in the fewest amount of clicks.

I mean, you click this button that says "Start" to "Shutdown." I mean, I'm fighting razor blades away from my wrists from that alone. Then they finally made it just the Windows Logo so I could avoid the suicidal thoughts. Now... they want me to put my cursor to the right of the screen, hit "Settings" and "Power" to shutdown (or just press the power button). I mean I hope the police are going to go around to every house and remove all of the bleach, sharp objects, and shoe laces. What are we going to do. I'm just going to use a Mac where I have to put my mouse to the corner of the screen, choose the apple logo, choose shutdown. Those microseconds I'd save every day are priceless, at my hourly rate that's like a nickle. That's a ****ing piece of gum every time I shut down my machine man.

yakumo said,
People used to think hitting 'start' to shut down was stupid, that was mitigated with the orb.

Now even after years of using lots of OS's (os2, linux, mac, osx, zeta) I find it ridiculous how hidden away the win8 shut down options are.


Frankly, and I realize you and others either don't realize this or struggle to accept it, the desktop computing paradigm is on its way out.

The vast majority of new PC purchases are laptops, and the vast majority of laptop users don't shut down regularly: they close the lid.

Let me repeat this for effect: closing the lid is the new shut down for the majority of PC users. Rebooting is something software tells you to do, and then offers to do it for you with a prompt.

Personally, I shut down regularly. Boot-up is very quick these days, and I can stand those extra boot-up seconds in exchange for that peace of mind we feel with a clean-booted desktop (though I realize even that is largely imagined). I've also been using Windows 8 as a primary OS since the consumer preview.

Now, I realize you have a warm and fuzzy safety zone here: you can just tell yourself that, if I don't hate Windows 8, I MUST be a blind fanboy who only likes it because I'm in Microsoft's camp. People aren't allowed to genuinely like something you don't, right?

All I know is, I've been using Windows 8 for months, and I do real work on it as much as I play around, and I've had no trouble adapting.

To be brutally honest, I struggled to get used to Windows 7's shut-down. It was too RIGHT THERE. You click start, you click shut down, and NOTHING else stood between you and turning off the computer. There was no wiggle room for accidental clicks. No extra Windows 9x-esque prompt asking if I want to restart/turn off. No safety net. So yeah, I like that turning off Windows 8 feels more...intentional. It's closer to the formula we had with XP and prior. Shutting down feels more like an operation to perform, and I think that's a good thing.

MrHumpty said,

I usually choose my OS due to its ability to be shut off in the fewest amount of clicks.

I mean, you click this button that says "Start" to "Shutdown." I mean, I'm fighting razor blades away from my wrists from that alone. Then they finally made it just the Windows Logo so I could avoid the suicidal thoughts. Now... they want me to put my cursor to the right of the screen, hit "Settings" and "Power" to shutdown (or just press the power button). I mean I hope the police are going to go around to every house and remove all of the bleach, sharp objects, and shoe laces. What are we going to do. I'm just going to use a Mac where I have to put my mouse to the corner of the screen, choose the apple logo, choose shutdown. Those microseconds I'd save every day are priceless, at my hourly rate that's like a nickle. That's a ****ing piece of gum every time I shut down my machine man.

A change for the sake of change is not always a good idea

Sure it's only a bit more effort but..why? why change something that worked why add extra useless steps

Also why can't people complain about these unnecessary changes without people resulting to pitiful attempts at sarcastic humor to convey some point?

Also some popular person makes a comment sharing their opinion on the system and the community has nothing better to do than shout childish drivel? e.g. swanlee

As for windows 8 it's going to be successful either way and there will be people working on fixes for the issues it has to keep everyone happy

yakumo said,
People used to think hitting 'start' to shut down was stupid, that was mitigated with the orb.

Now even after years of using lots of OS's (os2, linux, mac, osx, zeta) I find it ridiculous how hidden away the win8 shut down options are.

Sorry but pressing "start" to shutdown the OS is retarded, just because people get used doesn't mean it's cleaver. That changed with the orb, but the damage was done; most of the time i was troubleshooting someting over the phone i was "Sir press the Orb then..." only to get "what the heck is the Orb?" and i was like "errr...the Start button".
With Windows 8 the start menu is all plastered, with live elements and you can access anytime you want the Charms Bar (where you can shutdown the OS or performing other tasks).

Praetor said,

Sorry but pressing "start" to shutdown the OS is retarded, just because people get used doesn't mean it's cleaver.

"Start" = Start an activity. "Shutdown" = an activity.

The logic isn't weird at all, people often overcomplicate things imo.

I was going to test the RTM version on some old hardware but they limited what it could run on with that stupid NX bit. I was able to run the customer preview before all that.

Your cash cow - I mean Steam - runs fine on Windows 8, what's the issue Gabe? Where's the fricking fire?

The only rage I can see are for your next anticipated title slipping any future commitment dates and arriving incomplete.

Aergan said,
Your cash cow - I mean Steam - runs fine on Windows 8, what's the issue Gabe? Where's the fricking fire?

The only rage I can see are for your next anticipated title slipping any future commitment dates and arriving incomplete.

Commitment dates? You are aware Valve are their own publisher right?

Hence the reason why EP3 has taken so long.

I can understand normal user will keep using windows 7 but they are not going to quit computing and If windows 8 gives better FPS with same Graphics Card than games won't complain.

To me, Windows 8 feels like I'm running two operating systems in one. There's the desktop mode, and the tablet mode. Unfortunately the two don't seem to quite gel together. Now, I realise that due to my age and the fact that I grew up using IBM 286s running Dos that I am of the older generation. There's a younger generation who grew up with smartphones and tablets who will no doubt be able to adjust to Windows 8 quicker than I can. If you primarily use your computer for media and games than I think Windows 8 is probably on to a winner. Especially if you cloud sync between your mobile devices as well. Personally I use my computer for boring work stuff, and I find the metro UI a pain as it gets in my way. Creating a simple VPN connection seems strange to me as you do half on the desktop and half in metro. This is long winded if you have your settings on an encrypted site as you have to keep flicking back between metro and desktop. When you do this, the metro part of the VPN connection is lost meaning you have to navigate to it again. There are similar instances where this is also the case. I'm sticking with it though, and I think once I've been through the CBT course I'll be able to use it as quickly as I can 7.

The problem is you can't just stick to one "OS" you're forced to switch between the two and its horribly awkward. I wish they would just keep the start menu and also add the start screen. BAM. Best of both worlds.

nub said,
The problem is you can't just stick to one "OS" you're forced to switch between the two and its horribly awkward. I wish they would just keep the start menu and also add the start screen. BAM. Best of both worlds.

never know..
maybe once they see how bad they screwed up

I find the reaction to Gabes opinion interesting, especially from a vocal group on here. Frankly I take his opinion over opinions of anyone on here. Why? Because he is a successful, intelligent guy who knows the industry - he lives it and breathes it every day, and has produced (arguably) some of the greatest PC games ever made. His opinion matters. The majority of opinions on here don't matter. Cheap insults about him being fat are pathetic.. he may be fat, but he's more successful than ALL of us.

And people are mocking him for being angry about the fact that Microsoft have made their own app store. Of COURSE he's going to be angry. Valve came up with that business model before pretty much anyone else. There was enormous backlash at the time ("I might not always be connected to the internet!! I want physical media!!") but the sales figures and the success of the platform speaks for itself. I find it entirely predictable and acceptable to see he is annoyed that Microsoft want to use it's dominance in the market to offer a competing product. They do their usual thing of not gambling on a new technology - they sit back, let someone else do it, watch the mistakes they make and then throw loads of money and their market position at destroying any competing product. It's a shrewd way to do business but I wouldn't expect Valve to go quietly!

I'll still form my own opinion of Windows 8 - but I do like to hear what folks like Gabe Newell have to say because they know what they're talking about. And you fanboys really need to stop taking criticism of Windows so personally.. it's just an Operating System. You didn't write it. You likely don't have shares in Microsoft. If you disagree with Gabe, so what - he has his opinion, you're entitled to yours!

Microsoft was working on ClickOnce deployment for Silverlight apps for a while, at least for as long as Valve has been working on Steam. They only finally got their act together with WinRT, after abandoning the WPF/E model for being to performance heavy. And the strategy you're talking about -- sitting back and watching others make mistakes -- sounds a lot like Apple, who once declared that tablets were toys for rich people, there was no market for a video iPod, etc., etc. So yea, I think the anger is a bit unjustified.

Anyway, I'm not sure why you'd take Gabe's opinion, just because he's Gabe. I'm generally not interested in the person who's giving the opinion. I don't disrespect him. I do think he's being a drama queen on this issue, in a way that amounts to FUD.

Chicane-UK said,
I find the reaction to Gabes opinion interesting, especially from a vocal group on here. Frankly I take his opinion over opinions of anyone on here. Why? Because he is a successful, intelligent guy who knows the industry - he lives it and breathes it every day, and has produced (arguably) some of the greatest PC games ever made. His opinion matters. The majority of opinions on here don't matter. Cheap insults about him being fat are pathetic.. he may be fat, but he's more successful than ALL of us.

And people are mocking him for being angry about the fact that Microsoft have made their own app store. Of COURSE he's going to be angry. Valve came up with that business model before pretty much anyone else. There was enormous backlash at the time ("I might not always be connected to the internet!! I want physical media!!") but the sales figures and the success of the platform speaks for itself. I find it entirely predictable and acceptable to see he is annoyed that Microsoft want to use it's dominance in the market to offer a competing product. They do their usual thing of not gambling on a new technology - they sit back, let someone else do it, watch the mistakes they make and then throw loads of money and their market position at destroying any competing product. It's a shrewd way to do business but I wouldn't expect Valve to go quietly!

I'll still form my own opinion of Windows 8 - but I do like to hear what folks like Gabe Newell have to say because they know what they're talking about. And you fanboys really need to stop taking criticism of Windows so personally.. it's just an Operating System. You didn't write it. You likely don't have shares in Microsoft. If you disagree with Gabe, so what - he has his opinion, you're entitled to yours!

Well said. The overreaction seen above is laughable. At the end of the day, he's as entitled to the opinion as those screaming "butthurt."

brianshapiro said,
Microsoft was working on ClickOnce deployment for Silverlight apps for a while, at least for as long as Valve has been working on Steam.

Really? Silverlight came out in 2007... Steam was released in 2003.... I doubt that Silverlight was in development for 4 years?

brianshapiro said,
And the strategy you're talking about -- sitting back and watching others make mistakes -- sounds a lot like Apple, who once declared that tablets were toys for rich people, there was no market for a video iPod, etc., etc. So yea, I think the anger is a bit unjustified.

Why do people ALWAYS say "but Apple do it too.." as if it makes it alright? The difference is, in the desktop market, Apple isn't dominant. In the smartphone market, Apple were not dominant. In the MP3 player market, Apple were not dominant. They MADE themselves dominant after watching other companies make a complete hash of products which they felt they could do better. And (opinions of those who can't stand Apple aside) they've demonstrated they can.

When Apple DO use their position in the market to shaft consumers (like the pricing of eBooks) then people get upset about it quickly enough and rightly so!

brianshapiro said,
Anyway, I'm not sure why you'd take Gabe's opinion, just because he's Gabe. I'm generally not interested in the person who's giving the opinion. I don't disrespect him. I do think he's being a drama queen on this issue, in a way that amounts to FUD.

The primary platform for his products is Windows. It's not in his interest to spread malicious FUD about that product really.. I think he's just airing his opinions and concerns.

Chicane-UK said,

Really? Silverlight came out in 2007... Steam was released in 2003.... I doubt that Silverlight was in development for 4 years?

I'm not talking about when it was released. Microsoft was working on ClickOnce and WPF/E back during Longhorn development, also around 2003. They've been talking about app distribution / an app marketplace for Windows for a long, long time. Gabe would have been aware of this. The shock for him really shouldn't be there.

Chicane-UK said,

They MADE themselves dominant after watching other companies make a complete hash of products which they felt they could do better. And (opinions of those who can't stand Apple aside) they've demonstrated they can.

I don't get what you're point is, is this strategy a good thing or a bad thing? I was responding to where you said it was a bad thing in claiming Microsoft did it. And I didn't even concede Microsoft did it, I pointed to their work on ClickOnce (back in 2003).

brianshapiro said,

I'm not talking about when it was released. Microsoft was working on ClickOnce and WPF/E back during Longhorn development, also around 2003. They've been talking about app distribution / an app marketplace for Windows for a long, long time. Gabe would have been aware of this. The shock for him really shouldn't be there.

I think we could debate this point for a while! I don't know enough about the historic development of Windows to say whether or not that's plausible. I do remember Valve releasing Steam though back in 2003 (can't believe that's nearly 10 years ago.. yikes) and the general uproar - and I really don't remember anything else much like it at the time. But you could well be right. It'd be surprising if Microsoft didn't have anything like it at the time even if it was hidden away in their labs.

brianshapiro said,

I don't get what you're point is, is this strategy a good thing or a bad thing? I was responding to where you said it was a bad thing in claiming Microsoft did it. And I didn't even concede Microsoft did it, I pointed to their work on ClickOnce (back in 2003).

I guess my feeling is that it's a pretty shrewd move from a business point of view, but I think I just resent it when you're leverage the fact you're in a position of market dominance. Apple did it with phones and music players, despite having no grounding in either of those markets - and they have deserved their success. I feel less excitable about it in this kind of situation.. Microsoft have seen Valve and to a certain extent Apple do this and decided now's the time to jump in but they own a large majority of the desktop market share so everyone who uses their product immediately gets it. As I say it's clever from a business point of view, but I resent it from a "lack of originality / laziness" point of view.

And I have to just wave the obligatory "I'm not an Apple fanboy" flag here - I only use Windows (8 at the moment!) on my PC and my phone is a Windows Phone.. I just like to consider myself impartial and objective enough to talk about any vendor in favourable (or scornful) terms when appropriate!

Chicane-UK said,
<snip>

At the end of the day, it's pure and simple fanboyism. The Metro Defence Force will brook no criticism of their precious OS.

The moment someone speaks out about 8 in some regard, the instant response is an attempt to strawman their opinion, in this case it's "Gabe is worried the store will kill Steam!!!1111", despite the fact the 8 store doesn't even remotely hold a candle to what Steam is or does.

Granted, Valve are a highly unusual company in how they operate and approach the market. So at the same time I'm not really surprised that people deluded enough to place their entire being into defending a large, sprawling corporation that cares nothing for them; have issues with understanding the information coming from a small, managerless private company that actually cares about providing a good service to their customers.

Been using Win8 for months now and to be honest, Metro is still a pile of wank as a UI for a desktop pc - it's clumsy and untidy (my Office install added about 20 tiles covering everything from the frequently used main applications to the almost never used diagnostics and settings - tell me it's tidier and easier to use than before and i'll laugh in you face) and still gets the arse spanked off it by the Start Menu.
However, after installing ViStart things are much improved - though there doesn't seem to be any compelling reason to buy Win 8 if you're already running 7.

20legend said,
Been using Win8 for months now and to be honest, Metro is still a pile of wank as a UI for a desktop pc - it's clumsy and untidy (my Office install added about 20 tiles covering everything from the frequently used main applications to the almost never used diagnostics and settings - tell me it's tidier and easier to use than before and i'll laugh in you face) and still gets the arse spanked off it by the Start Menu.
However, after installing ViStart things are much improved - though there doesn't seem to be any compelling reason to buy Win 8 if you're already running 7.

And those extra icons were on the Start menu - from 2000 Professional up - unless you pruned them or hid them. (From Office 2003 to date, the default is *zero* icons on the desktop for any of Office - even the Outlook icon (the default from 2000) got bounced.) You can still prune them from the StartScreen - the same way you prune them from the Start menu, in fact. They are largely irrelevant because I launch via the Run box any Office application I run -and it's something I've been doing since Windows 2000 Professional - at home, not work.

PGHammer said,

And those extra icons were on the Start menu - from 2000 Professional up - unless you pruned them or hid them. (From Office 2003 to date, the default is *zero* icons on the desktop for any of Office - even the Outlook icon (the default from 2000) got bounced.) You can still prune them from the StartScreen - the same way you prune them from the Start menu, in fact. They are largely irrelevant because I launch via the Run box any Office application I run -and it's something I've been doing since Windows 2000 Professional - at home, not work.

The difference is in the start menu its a nice little title. In metro, its a huge giant rectangle. The start menu has a hierarchy for categorizing and organizing programs. As far as I know (waiting for MSDNAA release) you cannot cannot create categories for you programs.

markizvonschnitzel said,
What things does he think are now "very complicated and hard"?

Restarting or putting the PC to sleep using the mouse with only 1/2 clicks and no keyboard strokes.

King Mustard said,
Restarting or putting the PC to sleep using the mouse with only 1/2 clicks and no keyboard strokes.

There are multiple ways you can add that sort of thing in several locations.

King Mustard said,

Restarting or putting the PC to sleep using the mouse with only 1/2 clicks and no keyboard strokes.

So sleep/shutting down is the only issue that you have with WIn8? It must be because you keep repeating yourself over and over.
If you'd actually use Win8, you figure it out pretty quick. It's a shift in the way things are done but it's not difficult.

aniv said,
Gabe is probably still on XP What a moron; the only rage I felt this AM was due to his stupidity.

If you actually watched the video he is running Win7 on his desktop, Win8 on a tablet, and assuming OS X on his MBP.

"Things that used to be incredibly simple are now very complicated and hard."

- He is correct. Even restarting or putting the PC to sleep takes ages.

Let's see..

move to corner - click - click - 4, 3, 2, 1 - sleep

Press power button on my desktop - 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, oops.. back up..

please define slow..

paulheu said,

please define slow..

Answer: Watching any single one of the 99% of today's computer users try to figure out how to shutdown their computer without a tech geek standing next to them...

I'm saving myself a LOT of headaches by just telling everyone to stay the hell away from Windows 8 unless you're buying a new tablet.

excalpius said,

Answer: Watching any single one of the 99% of today's computer users try to figure out how to shutdown their computer without a tech geek standing next to them...

I'm saving myself a LOT of headaches by just telling everyone to stay the hell away from Windows 8 unless you're buying a new tablet.

This is the only point I agree with you on excalpius. Hiding power controls inside a settings menu is just wacko. That said, once you know where they are, and the shortcut (Win+I), it's not hard to access them. It's just different to what you're used to.

King Mustard said,
"Things that used to be incredibly simple are now very complicated and hard."

- He is correct. Even restarting or putting the PC to sleep takes ages.


To put my pc to sleep i close the lid...
But anyway, once you get used , is better the problem is that to get used, it takes you 2 weeks. eventually u will forget about start menu.

His comments disgust me,

"Things that used to be incredibly simple are now very complicated and hard." SERIOUSLY? It's exactly the reverse. Hate how he is ****ed that Xbox Live in bundled with Windows 8 but this goes too far.

Seriosuly his over reacting plus not doing his PR much good and i dont get where the idea of tech people dont like win 8 i love it makes a dam change from the same old design we have had since win95.

Let's do this Microsoft let's Destroy Steam :-) I will likely Purchase my Games on the Windows App Store when it happens instead of Valve Store.

He's just butt hurt because Windows App Store will make Steam obsolete. Developers can publish directly to the the App Store instead of publishing through Steam.

Microsoft
Desktop apps that pass our Desktop App Certification can also have app listing pages. These will be discoverable in the Store via searching and browsing, and will include a link to the app developer's website so that customers can purchase the app there.

Yes having the Window Store point customers to a page that'll point customers to buy it on Steam will surely destroy them.

edit: beaten by nub

virtorio said,
Yes having the Window Store point customers to a page that'll point customers to buy it on Steam will surely destroy them.

edit: beaten by nub

Why wouldn't it destroy them? Yeah, steam can still be available. But why would game developers still want to publish through steam when they can publish directly to Windows app store?

duhk said,

Why wouldn't it destroy them? Yeah, steam can still be available. But why would game developers still want to publish through steam when they can publish directly to Windows app store?

"Publishing" a desktop app is the same as linking somebody to the developer's website. How is that competition? If I post a link to a game on neowin is that destroying steam? No, that's ridiculous. You can't BUY the program through the store. Its simply a database of desktop apps. People aren't going to dump steam to "publish" their games on Windows Store because you can't publish them on Windows Store.

duhk said,

Why wouldn't it destroy them? Yeah, steam can still be available. But why would game developers still want to publish through steam when they can publish directly to Windows app store?


1. Apart from casual games, most developers aren't putting out software that can be sold though the App Store
2. Developers are very comfortable developing and publishing to Steam and the services it provides (regional content delivery, community features, achievements, fairly easy integration)
3. There is a huge pre-existing community that comes with Steam
4. It's cross platform, the App Store is only available on one single operating system

So, tell me would, why would developers want to ditch Steam?

The man is right. Windows 8 on the desktop is useless for those who already have Windows 7, or even Vista. Of course the techis will hate the toy interface...

Edited by Dot Catrix, Aug 17 2012, 5:31am :

Mortis said,
The man is right. Windows 8 on the desktop is useless for those who already have Windows 7, or even Vista. Of course the techis will hate the toy interface...

I'd love to know what you can do in Win7 which you cant do (or differently) in Windows 8.

Consider this first, the start screen is just an improvement over the start menu (do not see it as a desktop take-over, see it as an addon to the desktop)

Mortis said,
The man is right. Windows 8 on the desktop is useless for those who already have Windows 7, or even Vista. Of course the techis will hate the toy interface...

Funny that. Your beloved Windows XP was widely known as having a "fisher price" interface when it was released too. But memory is such a selective thing isn't it.

Mortis said,
The man is right. Windows 8 on the desktop is useless for those who already have Windows 7, or even Vista. Of course the techis will hate the toy interface...

Useless? Hardly.

I first tried the Developer Preview in a virtual machine, then promoted it to a dual-boot setup - for the express reason of testing out application and game compatibility.
(In other words, the REAL acid test for an upgrade from an existing version of Windows.). Here's the surprising thing - Windows 8's Consumer Preview had BETTER - not worse - compatibility with my games, applications, and even hardware than Windows 7. (That is, in fact, why Windows 7 got demoted to VM-only duties right then.) In short, the Modern UI wasn't the driving force behind my own move to Windows 8; that there are decent ModernUI/WinRT games is actually icing. Windows 8 won by being the better platform for Win32 applications and games - even compared to Windows 7+SP1.

this dude needs to grow up and keep running his own stupid company and not worry so much about the competition - which the new store is.

what an idiot if bad mouthing something is the only way to keep their business model a float... sad that they haven't really done anything ground breaking in a long while, and feel that status quo is the place to be.

Oh how the 'mighty' have fallen... like most other huge companies, devs, etc of late.

There is not competition here. You CANNOT buy Desktop apps through Windows Store.

Microsoft
Desktop apps that pass our Desktop App Certification can also have app listing pages. These will be discoverable in the Store via searching and browsing, and will include a link to the app developer's website so that customers can purchase the app there.

Furthermore try comparing Windows Store to Steam or XBox Live and you'll realize that Steam is not just a platform to buy games.

nub said,
There is not competition here. You CANNOT buy Desktop apps through Windows Store.

Furthermore try comparing Windows Store to Steam or XBox Live and you'll realize that Steam is not just a platform to buy games.


Yeah it has a chat platform too, uses way to many resources for just being a gamebased chat client.
Xbox has this too in Win8 btw

nub said,
There is not competition here. You CANNOT buy Desktop apps through Windows Store.

What?

Furthermore try comparing Windows Store to Steam or XBox Live and you'll realize that Steam is not just a platform to buy games.

nub said,
There is not competition here. You CANNOT buy Desktop apps through Windows Store.

What?

Furthermore try comparing Windows Store to Steam or XBox Live and you'll realize that Steam is not just a platform to buy games.

scumdogmillionaire said,

You can't buy them, but you can list them there.

Correct. Which is the similar as posting the link in a forum. That's not competition.

Windows 8 will separate the boys and the men. Valve just cries so hard, because they knows Windows 8 store will compete them.

As far as I can tell, Windows Store is ONLY for "Metro Apps" or "Modern Apps" (what a stupid name). If you notice games are not metro apps and will never be metro apps other than little flash-type games.

MDboyz said,
Windows 8 will separate the boys and the men. Valve just cries so hard, because they knows Windows 8 store will compete them.

Of course. Real men don't use Windows 8.

nub said,
As far as I can tell, Windows Store is ONLY for "Metro Apps" or "Modern Apps" (what a stupid name). If you notice games are not metro apps and will never be metro apps other than little flash-type games.

Really ? Already I have seen a pinball game that looks nothinglike a little flash type game. Ignorance is certainly bliss hey ?

sjaak327 said,

Really ? Already I have seen a pinball game that looks nothinglike a little flash type game. Ignorance is certainly bliss hey ?


This, that game dev tycoon or w/e is a bit flashylike, but still good fun.
ARMED! is good fun too, not a flash game I know comes close to it
And these are just the first batch of games, just wait well I cant wait.
Do wish i would be able to ignore those chinese apps, they're ruining my store, cant read it, cant use them, cant do nothing with them, and they look like horsemanure.

nub said,
As far as I can tell, Windows Store is ONLY for "Metro Apps" or "Modern Apps" (what a stupid name). If you notice games are not metro apps and will never be metro apps other than little flash-type games.

No its not, Apps for the Win32API can be listed in the store aswell. (they just arent yet)
Get yourself informed first and stop spreading FUD!

nub said,
As far as I can tell, Windows Store is ONLY for "Metro Apps" or "Modern Apps" (what a stupid name). If you notice games are not metro apps and will never be metro apps other than little flash-type games.

You haven't used Windows 8 for a decent length of time have you? Because I see Winzip, Office 2010, Paint Shop Pro and Age of Empires online listed there. People you may hate the start screen but please don't go spreading misinformation like that.

nub said,
As far as I can tell, Windows Store is ONLY for "Metro Apps" or "Modern Apps" (what a stupid name). If you notice games are not metro apps and will never be metro apps other than little flash-type games.

Wow, more nonsense from the trolling fud brigade.

WinRT is more than capable of triple-A games.

sjaak327 said,

Really ? Already I have seen a pinball game that looks nothinglike a little flash type game. Ignorance is certainly bliss hey ?

Yup. Pinball FX2. Ported from (yeeks) the 360 and PS3. Can *either* 360 or PS3 run the same title at 1920x1080 (which my desktop with a Q6600 and HD5450 (Vista-era quad-core and notebook GPU in desktop clothing) runs at every day)? The PS3 is certainly supposed to be capable of it - but can it get there? It was *never* a Win32 title - ever. Because of this, I'm expecting *more* crossover from XBLA - not less.

/rage quits technology and lives in a remote cabin in the woods, because the Start Menu is now the Start Screen.

/studies making biological weapons while writing a manifesto.

brianshapiro said,
/rage quits technology and lives in a remote cabin in the woods, because the Start Menu is now the Start Screen.

/studies making biological weapons while writing a manifesto.

I dub thee Sir Theodore Woolbeard.

lol at this guy thinking if hes wrong then he will make more money. he will actually bleed money when people dont have to pay $70+ a game anymore. he is running his mouth scared that all these years they got to make money on a platform without having to pay fees. well its all changing now. his thinking is if he helps create negative press he can deter people from using it,and in turn keep his cash flowing without having to pay back the platform that allowed his company to exist.

vcfan said,
lol at this guy thinking if hes wrong then he will make more money. he will actually bleed money when people dont have to pay $70+ a game anymore. he is running his mouth scared that all these years they got to make money on a platform without having to pay fees. well its all changing now. his thinking is if he helps create negative press he can deter people from using it,and in turn keep his cash flowing without having to pay back the platform that allowed his company to exist.

what the hell are you talking about? the main reason steam is so successful today is because they don't force people to pay $70+ for a game. steam has sales like every other week on a lot of popular games.

"he is running his mouth scared that all these years they got to make money on a platform without having to pay fees."

also, that sounds like something an apple fan would say to defend their closed, heavily restricted platform.

Deihmos said,
I tend to agree with him. Things that were once simple require more steps and aren't as simple.

+1. I can't stand it. Maybe it'll take some time, but this is just insane. I loved 7. What happened? Remember when 95 and XP came out? GODSENDS. What is this?

McG said,

+1. I can't stand it. Maybe it'll take some time, but this is just insane. I loved 7. What happened? Remember when 95 and XP came out? GODSENDS. What is this?

Yes, I do remember when XP was released. It was nothing short of a disaster.

Dot Matrix said,

Yes, I do remember when XP was released. It was nothing short of a disaster.

Yes, people love to forget that. I remember a good number of people claiming Windows XP was going to be the end of Microsoft as well.

Deihmos said,
I tend to agree with him. Things that were once simple require more steps and aren't as simple.

Like what exactly? I've been playing with it since the DP, and especially since RTM, there is nothing that takes more effort then doing so on Win7. Really, go give it an unbiased go and use it as ur main OS for a week or so.

virtorio said,
Yes, people love to forget that. I remember a good number of people claiming Windows XP was going to be the end of Microsoft as well.

XP was one of the most horrible OS's they released ever. It ook 2, not 1, but TWO freaking service packs to get that OS stable and adorable.
Only worse OS they ever released that was as unstable as a brick, when having an uptime of 3 days would give you a boner, was Windows 98 (dont flame ME, ME was hell...hell of allot better then Win98)

I have downloaded and installed from TechNet and think it's fantastic.
I won't be raging at all.
There is a huge difference since the consumer preview .
I finally got it yesterday realized that the new interface is my start screen.

Well I don't really like Windows 8. But I've been running it on both my home and work computers since the release preview, and so far I haven't raged and quit computing.

Newell's lackluster whining with no substance to back it up is making me want to "rage quit" his bloated, sluggish game store.

Remember when Gabe said the PS3 was a total disaster when it was released, then a few years later goes on E3 saying he loves the PS3?

Yeah, given that and "valve time", I take what he says with a grain of salt.

Lay-Z said,
Remember when Gabe said the PS3 was a total disaster when it was released, then a few years later goes on E3 saying he loves the PS3?

Yeah, given that and "valve time", I take what he says with a grain of salt.


exactly, don't know why some people take this guy seriously after that incident. he's a very dynamic character.

When he said that it was a disaster. It was way too expensive, PSN was a ghost town, they were loosing exclusives left and right, and multi-platform developers were struggling to get games out that looked as good and performed as well as their Xbox 360 versions.

Also, look at the poor position Sony is in at the moment; the PS3 is partially responsible for that.

virtorio said,
When he said that it was a disaster. It was way too expensive, PSN was a ghost town, they were loosing exclusives left and right, and multi-platform developers were struggling to get games out that looked as good and performed as well as their Xbox 360 versions.

Also, look at the poor position Sony is in at the moment; the PS3 is partially responsible for that.


The position Sony is in, you do know... the PS3 is the first Playstation console they're making a profit out of? The PSX/one and PS2 have cost them many, many billions of USD to keep afloat, no profit was made.
That Sony is comming to a closer point of crash-and-burn, has nothing to do with their Entertainment division, it has everything to do with their HiFi market has crashed (TV's, amps, radios, dvd/bluray drives, that was Sony's income).
Took 15 years, but Sony is actually making a profit they never had from the Entertainment division.

virtorio said,
When he said that it was a disaster. It was way too expensive, PSN was a ghost town, they were loosing exclusives left and right, and multi-platform developers were struggling to get games out that looked as good and performed as well as their Xbox 360 versions.

Also, look at the poor position Sony is in at the moment; the PS3 is partially responsible for that.

Doesn't matter. The point is Gabe will bitch about something, then change his mind later and expect people to not pay attention and think his opinion should be held in high regard.

He complained about development on the PS3 and how much harder it was compared to other consoles. Now Valve not only supports it better, you have Steam support on PS3.

Gabe Newell likes to open his fat mouth about a lot of things. So do heads of other game development companies because they think they can manipulate the opinions of gamers. Look at John Carmack, he's jumping on the Win 8 Hate bandwagon just to keep his name in gaming news. Then you got John Smedley of SOE doing the same thing, he says a lot of things and the complete opposite happens.

Lot of these guys don't know half the crap they say nor know much of what's going on. Gabe is just mad that he actually has competition for a game store on the PC. Boo hoo.

Lay-Z said,
Remember when Gabe said the PS3 was a total disaster when it was released, then a few years later goes on E3 saying he loves the PS3?

Yeah, given that and "valve time", I take what he says with a grain of salt.

The PS3 is far from a success though.

When you look at where the PS2 was and where the PS3 is it's definately a failure but not a disaster.

LaP said,

The PS3 is far from a success though.

When you look at where the PS2 was and where the PS3 is it's definately a failure but not a disaster.

Compared to what? Sony has sold roughly 64 million PS3s worldwide since its release. The PS2 has sold twice as many but has been on the market twice as long.

They may not have sold as many 360s as Microsoft has (about 67 million) but considering that plenty of AAA titles end up on the PS3, its not a failure.

Again my point has nothing to do with that and you completely missed it. If it was such a failure as Gabe thought it was, why the hell did he decide to sing its praises at E3 in 2010?

Lay-Z said,

Doesn't matter. The point is Gabe will bitch about something, then change his mind later and expect people to not pay attention and think his opinion should be held in high regard.

You people should really take the time to read up on things before you start spewing your misinformed "opinion" everywhere.

Gabe "Changed his position" on the PS3 only after Sony gave them permission to put Steamworks on the PS3.

And really, to go as far as saying he "changed his position" on the PS3 is a stretch, as his original criticism of it was about the hardware. They didn't want to bother with it, so Sony gave them special treatment to get Portal 2 on the PS3.

wow, piggybacking the Windows 8 release with this pathetic attempt of a publicity stunt, well done Gabe... useless fatass, go and develop half-life 3, that would be news

I don't want to use the "metro" interface on my pc. The format it's in is fine. I was around pre windows 95. I fell in love when 95 came out. It worked and I could find what I needed and it made things easy to install and use.

I do not want a closed marketplace system on my pc. I am not going to use windows 8 unless I can configure it to have a start button and taskbar like I have been using for nearly 18 years.

There is one thing driving all of this. Microsoft wants 30% of the sale of every piece of software sold for use on windows. It's not for security or to slow piracy. It's greed when you look behind the curtain. They see Apple making money hand over fist with their appstore and they want to get in on this. So they are going to lock down windows to certain hardware and the only way you can install anything is if you bought it from the Microsoft Marketplace.

This is the line drawn in the sand. I will not use a locked down windows. I won't give them any money buying "apps" on their store. I'm not going to pay $10 for a metro app to check my email.

WesDog said,
I don't want to use the "metro" interface on my pc. The format it's in is fine. I was around pre windows 95. I fell in love when 95 came out. It worked and I could find what I needed and it made things easy to install and use.

I do not want a closed marketplace system on my pc. I am not going to use windows 8 unless I can configure it to have a start button and taskbar like I have been using for nearly 18 years.

There is one thing driving all of this. Microsoft wants 30% of the sale of every piece of software sold for use on windows. It's not for security or to slow piracy. It's greed when you look behind the curtain. They see Apple making money hand over fist with their appstore and they want to get in on this. So they are going to lock down windows to certain hardware and the only way you can install anything is if you bought it from the Microsoft Marketplace.

This is the line drawn in the sand. I will not use a locked down windows. I won't give them any money buying "apps" on their store. I'm not going to pay $10 for a metro app to check my email.

so in windows 8 you can't actually install legacy software from the interwebz? wow mate you really rock, thanks for this really useful info... albeit i'm using this closed down windows since the CP and could check my mail or look up the daily weather without paying $$$

and to be honest you can install software from the interweb on Apple too

WesDog said,
I don't want to use the "metro" interface on my pc. The format it's in is fine. I was around pre windows 95. I fell in love when 95 came out. It worked and I could find what I needed and it made things easy to install and use.

I do not want a closed marketplace system on my pc. I am not going to use windows 8 unless I can configure it to have a start button and taskbar like I have been using for nearly 18 years.

There is one thing driving all of this. Microsoft wants 30% of the sale of every piece of software sold for use on windows. It's not for security or to slow piracy. It's greed when you look behind the curtain. They see Apple making money hand over fist with their appstore and they want to get in on this. So they are going to lock down windows to certain hardware and the only way you can install anything is if you bought it from the Microsoft Marketplace.

This is the line drawn in the sand. I will not use a locked down windows. I won't give them any money buying "apps" on their store. I'm not going to pay $10 for a metro app to check my email.

Have you already use/test Windows 8?

There's a built in mail app, and its quite good...no need to spend $10 on it...I use mail app for my outlook.com and gmail

The classic desktop is still there, the taskbar is still there...minus the old start menu with orb...you can download your favourite legacy software (.exe) and install on desktop...who told you that Windows 8 limits software download from Windows Store only? you can install firefox, photoshop, picasa, yahoo messenger or windows games on Windows 8 just like you install on Windows 7

I've uses Windows since 95 era, and up till now is happily rocking Windows 8 on both my desktop and laptop...please don't stuck in the past

morden said,

so in windows 8 you can't actually install legacy software from the interwebz? wow mate you really rock, thanks for this really useful info... albeit i'm using this closed down windows since the CP and could check my mail or look up the daily weather without paying $$$

and to be honest you can install software from the interweb on Apple too

You must be lucky with your legacy software.

We use Dynamics AX 2012 in our company.
As it turns out, you can't install Microsoft Dynamics AX 2012 client on Windows 8 without a hack (replacing a system dll from Windows 7).

Because of that, we've recommended to admin, partners and clients to skip Windows 8 until the issue is resolved.

letmesee said,

You must be lucky with your legacy software.

We use Dynamics AX 2012 in our company.
As it turns out, you can't install Microsoft Dynamics AX 2012 client on Windows 8 without a hack (replacing a system dll from Windows 7).

Because of that, we've recommended to admin, partners and clients to skip Windows 8 until the issue is resolved.

Funny... MS Dynamics works fine for us in windows 8

Eins.MY said,

Have you already use/test Windows 8?

There's a built in mail app, and its quite good...no need to spend $10 on it...I use mail app for my outlook.com and gmail

The classic desktop is still there, the taskbar is still there...minus the old start menu with orb...you can download your favourite legacy software (.exe) and install on desktop...who told you that Windows 8 limits software download from Windows Store only? you can install firefox, photoshop, picasa, yahoo messenger or windows games on Windows 8 just like you install on Windows 7

I've uses Windows since 95 era, and up till now is happily rocking Windows 8 on both my desktop and laptop...please don't stuck in the past

True - I like Outlook 2013 (which works just fine in the RTM of 8 Pro, which I am running today); even though Mail can handle everything except my ISP mail, that's the account that is my default; so I stick to Outlook.

neufuse said,

Funny... MS Dynamics works fine for us in windows 8

Dynamics AX 4 and 2009 works fine. But not 2012.
Regardless, we have notified our partners and clients to stay put until further notice.

DClark said,

Weather apps are free (including the one out of the box)... douchebag.

He is just giving an example, try to think in the big picture. Thanks.

Arceles said,

He is just giving an example, try to think in the big picture. Thanks.

his example is rubbish, thanks
in the big picture 1. i can still bookmark a ****ing page 2. there'll be tons of free apps just like on any other market

Windows Nashville said,
Windows 8: because a $19.99 "Modern UI App" that tells you the weather forecast is better than bookmarking a webpage for free.

weather apps are free...and most paid apps wont be priced at $19.99

and you can bookmark webpages on metro IE, classic IE, or whatever browser too...your argument is invalid

DClark said,

Weather apps are free (including the one out of the box)... douchebag.

Just did a search for weather in the store. 49 results, all of them free.

But let me guess, you are one of those people who trumpet how many apps are in the iOS or Android app store and laugh about the number of apps on the competition's store. But when it is on windows, we don't need apps, you can just open a web page (just as you can on the iPhone or Android).

Windows Nashville said,
Windows 8: because a $19.99 "Modern UI App" that tells you the weather forecast is better than bookmarking a webpage for free.

Or a desktop widget that actually IS visible all the time but not in your way.

All of the Start Screen realtime info widgets aren't visible whenever you are actually doing anything at all in any other program.

Windows 8. Two steps back.

Windows Nashville said,
Windows 8: because a $19.99 "Modern UI App" that tells you the weather forecast is better than bookmarking a webpage for free.

What about free Modern UI apps that do the same thing? The only Modern UI app I actually use replaced an ad-supported Win32 app - and it has zero ads. (And I wouldn't call AccuWeather small.) And it's available via the Windows Store today. No ads - and free. (There ARE some companies that think that way.)

We heard his opinion once already. I can't be the only one who believes his opinion is being overhyped, can I? A single guys opinion, mentioned more than once on a technology news site.

I didn't give a crap the first time he complained. I'm more annoyed the second time just because his opinion is so dumb.

The majority of pc owners can barely send and email and think all the shovelware preloaded is actually useful. They'll be more productive. Experienced users can handle it after they stop complaining.

The only thing that can hurt Win 8 is a lack of Games and good Modern Apps.

MorganX said,
The majority of pc owners can barely send and email and think all the shovelware preloaded is actually useful.

The 99% will be confused as hell and stay that way.

excalpius said,

The 99% will be confused as hell and stay that way.

No they won't. It takes 2 minutes to learn how the UI works.

TCLN Ryster said,

No they won't. It takes 2 minutes to learn how the UI works.

Yeah, it's simplified, maybe overly so, specifically for those users. I'm not sure why anyone would think the Start Page would not be a big hit with consumers. It's actually a good thing. Mail, People tile, what else to 90% of home PC owners actually do? Nothing. Not even play games, that's what consoles are for, for this group.

MS has actually done a good job taking care of both camps. Considering how much bigger the consumer and growing tablet market is, having experienced users swallow a few inconveniences is OK.

MorganX said,
MS has actually done a good job taking care of both camps. Considering how much bigger the consumer and growing tablet market is, having experienced users swallow a few inconveniences is OK.

Indeed, but listening to some of the haters, you'd think Ballmer or Sinofsky had raped their daughters or something :-)

Why is it some peoples opinion is so valued? At the end of the day its up to individuals to make up their own mind, not just blindly follow what some "internet personality" says. People have brains, should learn to use them and think for themselves.

I don't know why everyone judge windows 8 so quickly. It's an OS that make great enphasis in apps and content, but... their isn't any apps yet.

The OS isn't mature. That's quite simple. Wait for good apps to pop up and then we'll be able to judge his real power.

Philippe Pomerleau said,
I don't know why everyone judge windows 8 so quickly. It's an OS that make great enphasis in apps and content, but... their isn't any apps yet.

The OS isn't mature. That's quite simple. Wait for good apps to pop up and then we'll be able to judge his real power.

It's not the lack of apps, it's the whole new enviorment what people have issues with.

Not only that but Metro/Modern/Whatever apps are more limited than desktop counterparts, so now you are running apps in two environments..

It's great if you only do one thing at a time, or are on a tablet, but for complex multitasking with several windows open at a time, or more than one window on a screen at a time, it's far more complex and annoying than it needed to be.

I would have been fine with it being an Option, something you could use if you wanted too.. hell even if it was the default.. but there should be the option for us to never need to enter the metro environment, ever, for anything. Boot to desktop, use a startmenu, etc. Just because some people don't know how to use them efficiently, doesn't mean it holds true for everything.

I've been using 8 since the Consumer Preview came out, I love it on my tablet.. but I've put in a lot of time in using it on my laptop, and in no way, not a single one, does it make me any more efficient than I was in 7, and in several cases it's worse.

Ryoken said,
It's not the lack of apps, it's the whole new enviorment what people have issues with.

Not only that but Metro/Modern/Whatever apps are more limited than desktop counterparts, so now you are running apps in two environments..

It's great if you only do one thing at a time, or are on a tablet, but for complex multitasking with several windows open at a time, or more than one window on a screen at a time, it's far more complex and annoying than it needed to be.

I would have been fine with it being an Option, something you could use if you wanted too.. hell even if it was the default.. but there should be the option for us to never need to enter the metro environment, ever, for anything. Boot to desktop, use a startmenu, etc. Just because some people don't know how to use them efficiently, doesn't mean it holds true for everything.

I've been using 8 since the Consumer Preview came out, I love it on my tablet.. but I've put in a lot of time in using it on my laptop, and in no way, not a single one, does it make me any more efficient than I was in 7, and in several cases it's worse.

I don't know how you do to enjoy Windows 8 on a tablet with such poorly developed apps. Let's face it, MS abandon desktop for day to day task. Desktop will only remain for professional who need adobe premiere, autocad and the like.

When they will have many good apps for average to power user it will be great os IMO. It could have seedbox live tile that tell you the current dl/ul speed, bandwidtch meter with live report. same for torrent client. live update from our ebay sniper, remaining space on our favorite cloud backup service, a vueminder metro apps that would provide comprehensive calendar options, a good gmail apps who provide all the proper options, not only a fade copy from the included mail app, live progress report from an encoder, etc.

Their isn't any fun to go back and forth from metro to desktop, until we have ton a good metro apps, and it can take up to 2 years in my opinion, this os won't deliver what it is capable of.

Philippe Pomerleau said,
I don't know why everyone judge windows 8 so quickly. It's an OS that make great enphasis in apps and content, but... their isn't any apps yet.

The OS isn't mature. That's quite simple. Wait for good apps to pop up and then we'll be able to judge his real power.

People don't want "apps" on their computer. Traditional desktop applications are more powerful and efficient than full screen phone/tablet style apps. Why does a program have to take up my entire screen? especially while displaying information in horribly inefficient manners? Because its cool?

nub said,

People don't want "apps" on their computer. Traditional desktop applications are more powerful and efficient than full screen phone/tablet style apps. Why does a program have to take up my entire screen? especially while displaying information in horribly inefficient manners? Because its cool?

and in what way is Windows 8 forces you to use those "apps". Many people hate IE mainly because of its reputation but have you seen people so butt hurt about it being the default browser? Of course not, because they could easily install a replacement.

Ryoken said,
Not only that but Metro/Modern/Whatever apps are more limited than desktop counterparts, so now you are running apps in two environments..

Nonsense. WinRT is capable of far more complex apps than what we have seen so far. Ranging from word processors, to full on AAA games. People who claim "Metro" is only capable of dumbed down simplified apps are just spouting FUD.

Ryoken said,
It's not the lack of apps, it's the whole new enviorment what people have issues with.

Not only that but Metro/Modern/Whatever apps are more limited than desktop counterparts, so now you are running apps in two environments..

It's great if you only do one thing at a time, or are on a tablet, but for complex multitasking with several windows open at a time, or more than one window on a screen at a time, it's far more complex and annoying than it needed to be.

I would have been fine with it being an Option, something you could use if you wanted too.. hell even if it was the default.. but there should be the option for us to never need to enter the metro environment, ever, for anything. Boot to desktop, use a startmenu, etc. Just because some people don't know how to use them efficiently, doesn't mean it holds true for everything.

I've been using 8 since the Consumer Preview came out, I love it on my tablet.. but I've put in a lot of time in using it on my laptop, and in no way, not a single one, does it make me any more efficient than I was in 7, and in several cases it's worse.

My productivity disagrees.

I run lots of applications and games (in fact, other than the applications I've made plain got mooted by OS-included support) I brought them *all* over. Every application and every game. If this were only about tablets and slates, could Crysis 2 run at all? Could NFS titles run? Could Burnout Paradise run? Could every Steam title I own run? (Surprise - they all do, and with nary an issue.)

Ive loved it since i installed it. Along with office 2013 preview, vs2012. Gabe is just ****ed at the app store is what it boils down to. Though then again, im not a gamer, so i could really care less what he says anyways =D

Phebson said,
Ive loved it since i installed it. Along with office 2013 preview, vs2012. Gabe is just ****ed at the app store is what it boils down to. Though then again, im not a gamer, so i could really care less what he says anyways =D

Out of interest, how much less could you care?

Microsoft
Desktop apps that pass our Desktop App Certification can also have app listing pages. These will be discoverable in the Store via searching and browsing, and will include a link to the app developer's website so that customers can purchase the app there.

It takes a few weeks to get the hang of. It's growing on me the more I use it. Still not exactly thrilled, but I don't hate it like I used to the first few days I used it. I'd almost say the metro experience is pretty intuitive when you stay within the metro environment.. I still don't like switching between the two. Either make the control panel 100% metro, or make it 100% desktop. Same thing with IE, Windows Update, etc...

I don't understand why Microsoft want to force the new start screen to all users. Why not have an option to enable/disable it so that everyone can use windows 8 in the way they find suitable for them. I personally like the new metro style and start screen, but still prefer to have the possibility to disable it.

We are the users and we have the right to decide how to use a software.

PiRhnas said,
I don't understand why Microsoft want to force the new start screen to all users. Why not have an option to enable/disable it so that everyone can use windows 8 in the way they find suitable for them. I personally like the new metro style and start screen, but still prefer to have the possibility to disable it.

We are the users and we have the right to decide how to use a software.

Technical reasons. Want all the desktop enhancements in 8? The Start Menu didn't play nice with those. The Start Menu didn't support modern DPI scaling, nor did it support or even have a way of representing Modern apps.

PiRhnas said,
We are the users and we have the right to decide how to use a software.

Yes, you do, and that means - in the case of Windows 8 - that you simply leave the OS alone and stick with XP/Vista/Windows 7 or whatever floats your boat.

And from a technical standpoint, Windows does not belong to you, or me, or any "user" - it's licensed for our use, but it does not belong to us even when we pay hard cash for it. We're just paying for the right to use it, not own it, so that shoots a big hole in your argument to some degree.

If you don't like it, don't buy or use it, period. There are no other options.

Oh, wait, you can whine about it on the Internet...

Dot Matrix said,
Technical reasons. Want all the desktop enhancements in 8? The Start Menu didn't play nice with those. The Start Menu didn't support modern DPI scaling, nor did it support or even have a way of representing Modern apps.

Of course the start menu supported DPI scaling, and even if it didn't that's not a reason to replace it with a full screen modal window.

br0adband said,

Yes, you do, and that means - in the case of Windows 8 - that you simply leave the OS alone and stick with XP/Vista/Windows 7 or whatever floats your boat.

And from a technical standpoint, Windows does not belong to you, or me, or any "user" - it's licensed for our use, but it does not belong to us even when we pay hard cash for it. We're just paying for the right to use it, not own it, so that shoots a big hole in your argument to some degree.

If you don't like it, don't buy or use it, period. There are no other options.

Oh, wait, you can whine about it on the Internet...

When I say "We are the users", I mean by this that the software should be adapted to our flavors and styles and should be flexible enough to satisfy all the tastes. User satisfaction is what makes a successful software. That's how I see things.

Dot Matrix said,

Technical reasons. Want all the desktop enhancements in 8? The Start Menu didn't play nice with those. The Start Menu didn't support modern DPI scaling, nor did it support or even have a way of representing Modern apps.
If it had issues, then the solution was to rewrite it, not replace it with something completely new..

Dot Matrix said,

Technical reasons. Want all the desktop enhancements in 8? The Start Menu didn't play nice with those. The Start Menu didn't support modern DPI scaling, nor did it support or even have a way of representing Modern apps.

Yeah "technical reasons", right. Funny how there was an option to run either UI in DP back in late 2011 last year.

They simply didn't want to rework the start menu or provide a traditional windows experience, because if they did many would opt for that (traditional UI) rather then experience the Metro UI; potentially making MS miss out on making app sales or even showing ads through tiles (just wait).

It's all about market positioning and not the user in this round of Windows.

abysal said,

Yeah "technical reasons", right. Funny how there was an option to run either UI in DP back in late 2011 last year.

They simply didn't want to rework the start menu or provide a traditional windows experience, because if they did many would opt for that (traditional UI) rather then experience the Metro UI; potentially making MS miss out on making app sales or even showing ads through tiles (just wait).

It's all about market positioning and not the user in this round of Windows.

Ask Brandon Live, he's the one who said it, also you're talking about the DP; pre-alpha code.

Ryoken said,
If it had issues, then the solution was to rewrite it, not replace it with something completely new..

They did re-write it. The Start Screen has all the functionality of the old Start Menu.

Dot Matrix said,

They did re-write it. The Start Screen has all the functionality of the old Start Menu.

Except for covering the entire screen and requiring several extra clicks to access, over and over again, for anyone who spends most of his time working in the desktop environment. Otherwise it's exactly the same.

Windows Nashville said,

Except for covering the entire screen and requiring several extra clicks to access, over and over again, for anyone who spends most of his time working in the desktop environment. Otherwise it's exactly the same.

Several extra clicks? Where? I have yet to spend extra clicks doing anything I did in Windows 7.

Dot Matrix said,

Several extra clicks? Where? I have yet to spend extra clicks doing anything I did in Windows 7.

For me to run an app from the start menu is 2 clicks.. start, then the app is right there, pinned or recently used.

Start Screen it's launching it, then if it's not my half dozen most common/pinned, I'm either scrolling for ages, ot typing it in..

Even the rare times I need to go to the programs area in the start menu, everything I have there is organized, it takes no time to find it.. Start Screen all the "folders" are open, so you are still scrolling from a-z through each folder till you get to the one you want..

Additionally, If I'm watching something on youtube, or a presentation, or irc, and want to fire up a calculator, or notepad.. with the start menu I can do that without covering up my whole screen, now with the start screen I can't.. and that gets old really quick.


I don't understand all the Metro lovers hate for those of us who dislike it.. we are, for the most part, not saying remove it.. we just want the choice, while you want to force your views on how great it is onto everyone, regardless of if it's true for that person..

Dot Matrix said,

They did re-write it. The Start Screen has all the functionality of the old Start Menu.

It does not have all the functionality. Please be objective and don't spread false statements. If it had all the functionality, we would not be having this discussion.

The_Decryptor said,

Of course the start menu supported DPI scaling, and even if it didn't that's not a reason to replace it with a full screen modal window.

Dude, do not disagree with him. He explained the 'technical reasons' so well that... just LOL. He doesn't even deserve to be quoted.

abysal said,

It does not have all the functionality. Please be objective and don't spread false statements. If it had all the functionality, we would not be having this discussion.

What functionality does it not have? The Windows 7 Start Menu was designed to pin apps and Search. Windows 8 has that.

Ryoken said,
Start Screen all the "folders" are open, so you are still scrolling from a-z through each folder till you get to the one you want..

The All Apps menu isn't arranged A-Z anymore.

Ryoken said,
For me to run an app from the start menu is 2 clicks.. start, then the app is right there, pinned or recently used.

Start Screen it's launching it, then if it's not my half dozen most common/pinned, I'm either scrolling for ages, ot typing it in..

Even the rare times I need to go to the programs area in the start menu, everything I have there is organized, it takes no time to find it.. Start Screen all the "folders" are open, so you are still scrolling from a-z through each folder till you get to the one you want..

Additionally, If I'm watching something on youtube, or a presentation, or irc, and want to fire up a calculator, or notepad.. with the start menu I can do that without covering up my whole screen, now with the start screen I can't.. and that gets old really quick.


I don't understand all the Metro lovers hate for those of us who dislike it.. we are, for the most part, not saying remove it.. we just want the choice, while you want to force your views on how great it is onto everyone, regardless of if it's true for that person..

They've embraced phone / mobile devices, Windows 8 is just an extension to that. They also multi-task differently. To them a full screen switch is not a big deal, but it kind of defeats the purpose of "Windows" imo.

abysal said,

It does not have all the functionality. Please be objective and don't spread false statements. If it had all the functionality, we would not be having this discussion.


Apart from the recent list, it does have all functionality, And it expands on the functionality, like the all apps list that is completely absent in the old start menu. I don't get it, most actions you would carry out on the old menu, can be done quicker with the new, with the onky difference it now is full screen.

Probably I'm a dinosaur. I use the keyboard most of the time and when you **** with my keyboard I'll jump ship.

I'll open anything in less time then you'll ever do that with a mouse click - except on the quick lunch bar. I don't remember icon places or menus. I'll just press the windows key and a few letters and press enter.

Ryoken said,
For me to run an app from the start menu is 2 clicks.. start, then the app is right there, pinned or recently used.

Start Screen it's launching it, then if it's not my half dozen most common/pinned, I'm either scrolling for ages, ot typing it in..

Even the rare times I need to go to the programs area in the start menu, everything I have there is organized, it takes no time to find it.. Start Screen all the "folders" are open, so you are still scrolling from a-z through each folder till you get to the one you want..

Additionally, If I'm watching something on youtube, or a presentation, or irc, and want to fire up a calculator, or notepad.. with the start menu I can do that without covering up my whole screen, now with the start screen I can't.. and that gets old really quick.


I don't understand all the Metro lovers hate for those of us who dislike it.. we are, for the most part, not saying remove it.. we just want the choice, while you want to force your views on how great it is onto everyone, regardless of if it's true for that person..

How is this different from the new start screen ? It also takes two clicks at the most. You do know that you can arrange the new start screen as well ? You must have missed the apps list as well, neatly sorted ? Not to mention searching for anything becomes much quicker and easier. I have not missed theold startmenu for a minute.

abysal said,

It does not have all the functionality.


What the hell are you talking about? You actually used 8? Doesn't sound like you have to me.

The start screen has everything the start menu had and MORE.

Ryoken said,
For me to run an app from the start menu is 2 clicks.. start, then the app is right there, pinned or recently used.

Start Screen it's launching it, then if it's not my half dozen most common/pinned, I'm either scrolling for ages, ot typing it in..
.

Since the start screen has room for at least about 4+ times as many pinned app on the first screen without scrolling as the the start menu with recent apps removed and and a high res screen. Your argument makes 0, that's zero, sense.

Dot Matrix said,

They're right here, dude. Go read them: http://www.neowin.net/forum/to...iew__findpost__p__595048551

I would have to say that the points made here do make a lot of sense. Just throwing in my two cents.

But I think the one thing to mention is that the wonderful thing about Windows is its customisability. If the registry is still a forest of vast toggles that make windows do practically whatever you want, and if they still apply to the Metro interface. Then I am pretty sure that there will be plenty of third party software and simple registry edits that will allow you to return Windows to its previous functionality.

Atreus said,
Probably I'm a dinosaur. I use the keyboard most of the time and when you **** with my keyboard I'll jump ship.

I'll open anything in less time then you'll ever do that with a mouse click - except on the quick lunch bar. I don't remember icon places or menus. I'll just press the windows key and a few letters and press enter.


Here one of the advantages of Modern UI comes into play, it's allot more thought out for mouse use, not nessesarely the pointing and clicking as it has been for 20 years. They basically added gestures to the mix. I notice for minor things I sometimes have to click a lil bit more (every Windows release has always had area's where less clicks where needed and area's where more clicks where needed, this isnt something new, this has been around since Windows 2-3)
But for quite a few things, I either dont have to click at all, or everything is within reach within 2-3 clicks. I am a keyboard shortcut fan, always prefered CLI allot over GUI for many things. but times are changing, also for my personal preference. I'm sick and tired of doing everything the hard way. MS shows us how even the Desktop can be allot lazier, less frustrating, smoother and more consistent

MikeHellstone said,


What the hell are you talking about? You actually used 8? Doesn't sound like you have to me.

The start screen has everything the start menu had and MORE.

You don't know what your talking about. Start menu has features the start screen is missing. Drag & drop, single search (no categories), full right click menu, and even better organizing abilities to name a few.

You're making an ass of your self when you make assumptions; I use 8 every day and it's a decent OS for what it is, but don't fool your self that all of it is an upgrade from 7, you'd be an idiot to do that.

sjaak327 said,


Apart from the recent list, it does have all functionality, And it expands on the functionality, like the all apps list that is completely absent in the old start menu. I don't get it, most actions you would carry out on the old menu, can be done quicker with the new, with the onky difference it now is full screen.

Really? Can you perform a single search which returns results from all categories? Can you drag and drop to the desktop? Do you have full right click menu for all those quick functions a right click menu can provide?

Doesn't sound like your aware of all the feature of the start menu; your arguments are misinformed.

Doesn't mean the new start screen is bad; it works fairly well actually. I'm just tried of people making it sound like it's the 2nd coming or something like that.

abysal said,

Really? Can you perform a single search which returns results from all categories? Can you drag and drop to the desktop? Do you have full right click menu for all those quick functions a right click menu can provide?

Doesn't sound like your aware of all the feature of the start menu; your arguments are misinformed.

Doesn't mean the new start screen is bad; it works fairly well actually. I'm just tried of people making it sound like it's the 2nd coming or something like that.

I do know what it does provide. Search works much better in the new start screen as that single search returning stuff from all categories was too cluttered, now I have a clearly separated search target.

Right click menus are available on the new start screen as well, and offer pretty much the same options, depending on the tile you select, as obviously a WinRT tile will present less options.

As to the drag and drop feature, I am at a loss why this would be of any use, but then again, I Always used explorer to organize the start menu, something I can still do on the new metro start menu by the way.

sjaak327 said,

I do know what it does provide. Search works much better in the new start screen as that single search returning stuff from all categories was too cluttered, now I have a clearly separated search target.

Right click menus are available on the new start screen as well, and offer pretty much the same options, depending on the tile you select, as obviously a WinRT tile will present less options.

As to the drag and drop feature, I am at a loss why this would be of any use, but then again, I Always used explorer to organize the start menu, something I can still do on the new metro start menu by the way.

Seems we just use thing differently. However the point was, some features are missing, you can't deny that. They my be implemented differently; however the work flow is different.

PiRhnas said,
We are the users and we have the right to decide how to use a software.

You have a right to choose to use the software or not, not how the software is designed.

Shadowzz said,

Here one of the advantages of Modern UI comes into play, it's allot more thought out for mouse use, not nessesarely the pointing and clicking as it has been for 20 years. They basically added gestures to the mix. I notice for minor things I sometimes have to click a lil bit more (every Windows release has always had area's where less clicks where needed and area's where more clicks where needed, this isnt something new, this has been around since Windows 2-3)
But for quite a few things, I either dont have to click at all, or everything is within reach within 2-3 clicks. I am a keyboard shortcut fan, always prefered CLI allot over GUI for many things. but times are changing, also for my personal preference. I'm sick and tired of doing everything the hard way. MS shows us how even the Desktop can be allot lazier, less frustrating, smoother and more consistent

Modern UI is a major boost to keyboard fans (like moi) as well.

I've stated (several times) my impression that Windows 7's UI (furthering the trend of the 9x UI, to be honest) was so into being mouse-biased that the keyboard became an afterthought. Windows 8 and the Modern UI brought the keyboard back in a big way - and especially a lot of the keyboard shortcuts that have been laying fallow and underused (if not unused) since Windows 2000 Professional. That doesn't even go into the new Windows-key related shortcut key-combos revolving around everything from Start Screen to Charm Bar. It's no longer all-mouse (or even all-keyboard if you want to get technical); you can actually use them together! (Keyboard and mouse, that is - the only other OS with this sort of usability is - rather embarrassingly - Android.)

Jason Stillion said,
Win8 introduces "apps" as found in mobile / tablet and forces it in pc users.
Nothing forces you to install apps. I don't understand this mentality, if you don't want apps just don't install them?

Jason Stillion said,
Win8 introduces "apps" as found in mobile / tablet and forces it in pc users.

In no way on Windows 8 am I forced into Modern apps. I can live on the desktop if I want to.

Dot Matrix said,

In no way on Windows 8 am I forced into Modern apps. I can live on the desktop if I want to.

You can, however the initial windows profile pushes you to a to a windows live account, all the default music, picture, video push you to the metro app versions.
I'm more living on the desktop then metro/modern myself.

Jason Stillion said,
Win8 introduces "apps" as found in mobile / tablet and forces it in pc users.

Apps is short for "applications." This is nothing new for Windows. What they "force" on users is a tablet UI on traditional PCs.

siah1214 said,
Nothing forces you to install apps. I don't understand this mentality, if you don't want apps just don't install them?

Both my home pc as my work pc are windows 8.
This mentality is just beyond retarded. I'd say more like how people where in the Dark Ages.

They complain and moan about something they have NO clue about.

Im a pro desktop user, using it heavily and widely, prefered allot over any kind of full screen applications (I even game windowed mode, if no windowed mode available I often dont play or if the game is old enough, just go with a VM)
For those metro haters, any idea how many seconds a day on average I see the metro screen? About 4 seconds (i've counted them!). Opened it 3 times.

The search is at least 2-3 times faster then Win7's start menu search. Its less cluttered, thanks to life tiles, I dont even have to open apps to see updates (mail, messenger, weather etc). And I can update myself on the info on multiple apps AT ONCE, without using a battery of resource hogging desktop widgets

Shadowzz said,

Im a pro desktop user,

You're not representative of the 99% of people who are going to rage quit this "desktop" OS and go back to Windows 7 or over to Apple.

excalpius said,

You're not representative of the 99% of people who are going to rage quit this "desktop" OS and go back to Windows 7 or over to Apple.

Neither are you sir. Stop proclaiming to be able to predict how 99% of people who use computers are going to behave, because quite frankly you have no clue. And professing that you do just makes you look like an arse.

Jason Stillion said,

You can, however the initial windows profile pushes you to a to a windows live account, all the default music, picture, video push you to the metro app versions.
I'm more living on the desktop then metro/modern myself.

That is because the Windows Live Account system (which started as the even older Microsoft Passport system) is there. It's been there since 2000, and works with all things Microsoft. (And in what way is this different than Google ID, which works across all of Google's services and devices - including Android, by the way - or the Apple ID - likewise, across every Apple device) Answer - it isn't! My own ID changed for the first time a week ago, when I migrated everything to outlook.com. And it's already showing bennies - all my Microsoft mail (as in mail from Microsoft, including my e-mail newsletter subscriptions) goes where it should, with some actually BEING routed to outlook.com - which is not a minus, as Outlook can grab it.

And changing your file associations is no harder than it was in Windows 7 - in fact, it's identical. (In fact, the first time you open a filetype associated with something OTHER than the default, File Explorer will ask you if you want to make the change the default; this is something that Windows 7 does NOT do.)

The only people that hate it are techies. The non techies I've set up with it learn in a few minutes and continue on their merry way. The only people that can't seem to adapt are geeks. Like Gabe Newell.

siah1214 said,
The only people that hate it are techies. The non techies I've set up with it learn in a few minutes and continue on their merry way. The only people that can't seem to adapt are geeks. Like Gabe Newell.

^This. He finds it, "very complicated and hard." Really? And, this guy founded Valve? Color me perplexed.

Yes, but I half-agree with Gabe. I can do whatever I want on Windows 7 very quicky with short and precise mouse movements. That is, using the two axes, wheel, and five buttons my mouse provides.

With Windows 8, I have to make large sweeping movements to accomplish most of the same mousing tasks. Just geometrically, this is not as fast. And along with the start menu, one of my favorite features is gone: the recently used files for all my most used programs (big deal breaker).

But obviously I'm not going to rage quit on the entire PC. Gabe is a smart marketer who co-founded a really big company. That suggestion of his is obviously a headlining ploy.

But the more I use Windows 8, the more positive I am that I'm sticking with Windows 7 for now. If too many people in charge of rolling PCs out feel the same way, MS might lose more than it gains from pandering to grandfathers.

Also, here's hoping the next service pack for Windows 7 can include some of the under-the-hood improvements in Windows 8.

siah1214 said,
The only people that hate it are techies. The non techies <snip>

Oh i'm sorry. I didn't realise Windows 8 can be purchased in stores already.

Raa said,

Oh i'm sorry. I didn't realise Windows 8 can be purchased in stores already.

lol... a few 'geeks' only got Win 8 already, but he has solid opinion about all others, the wider market. Interesting, indeed

a1ien said,
And along with the start menu, one of my favorite features is gone: the recently used files for all my most used programs (big deal breaker).

Firstly, pin your most-used programs to the task bar. That way you'll hardly ever go to the start screen and you'll stay on the desktop just as you do in Windows 7. Then right click on the icons in the task bar and your most recent documents appear (along with other helpful options).

a1ien said,
Yes, but I half-agree with Gabe. I can do whatever I want on Windows 7 very quicky with short and precise mouse movements. That is, using the two axes, wheel, and five buttons my mouse provides.

With Windows 8, I have to make large sweeping movements to accomplish most of the same mousing tasks. Just geometrically, this is not as fast. And along with the start menu, one of my favorite features is gone: the recently used files for all my most used programs (big deal breaker).

But obviously I'm not going to rage quit on the entire PC. Gabe is a smart marketer who co-founded a really big company. That suggestion of his is obviously a headlining ploy.

But the more I use Windows 8, the more positive I am that I'm sticking with Windows 7 for now. If too many people in charge of rolling PCs out feel the same way, MS might lose more than it gains from pandering to grandfathers.

Also, here's hoping the next service pack for Windows 7 can include some of the under-the-hood improvements in Windows 8.


nothing really changed from Windows 7, your spreading FUD.

Shadowzz said,

nothing really changed from Windows 7, your spreading FUD.

nothing really changed from Windows 7? Good, one more reason not to upgrade to Windows 8. Thanks for the advice

siah1214 said,
The only people that hate it are techies. The non techies I've set up with it learn in a few minutes and continue on their merry way. The only people that can't seem to adapt are geeks. Like Gabe Newell.

Not true. The non techies I had given Windows 8 to have struggled to close apps to shut down, to get to start. It's not intuitive. For me, I found this enjoyable to learn however.

a1ien said,
Yes, but I half-agree with Gabe. I can do whatever I want on Windows 7 very quicky with short and precise mouse movements. That is, using the two axes, wheel, and five buttons my mouse provides.

With Windows 8, I have to make large sweeping movements to accomplish most of the same mousing tasks. Just geometrically, this is not as fast. And along with the start menu, one of my favorite features is gone: the recently used files for all my most used programs (big deal breaker).

But obviously I'm not going to rage quit on the entire PC. Gabe is a smart marketer who co-founded a really big company. That suggestion of his is obviously a headlining ploy.

But the more I use Windows 8, the more positive I am that I'm sticking with Windows 7 for now. If too many people in charge of rolling PCs out feel the same way, MS might lose more than it gains from pandering to grandfathers.

Also, here's hoping the next service pack for Windows 7 can include some of the under-the-hood improvements in Windows 8.

You mean your mouse & keyboard have stopped working, and you can't just move over items and click them anymore?

Hmm...that sounds more like PEBKAC than anything else. I have 0 touch interfaces on my desktop and navigate just fine.

siah1214 said,
The non techies I've set up with it learn in a few minutes and continue on their merry way.

And that would be a bald-faced lie. The non-techies have not had a chance to use Windows 8 on the desktop yet.

I think they will like it on tablet devices, but absolutely hate it on desktops.

Mark my words - Sales of Apple's desktop computers will increase substantially because of Microsoft's mistake in force-feeding a tablet touch front end onto their flagship desktop OS.

siah1214 said,
The only people that hate it are techies. The non techies I've set up with it learn in a few minutes and continue on their merry way. The only people that can't seem to adapt are geeks. Like Gabe Newell.

Now i work in IT, and i'm still using the pro version of windows 8. Seriously, i love windows 8 and trust me i spend less time on my windows 7 than on windows 8 which is on my virtual machine. It's eye candy but Mr. Gabe Newell is absolutely right, it is no PRODUCTIVE. I'm always up to date on my windows 8 but i need to click a lot more what used to do in windows 7. Still there are disadvantages of windows 8 like snap feature does not work on resolution smaller than 1366x768 where i have a 1280*1024 screen and can not work on a wide screen.

excalpius said,

And that would be a bald-faced lie. The non-techies have not had a chance to use Windows 8 on the desktop yet.

Learn to read, I said non-techies "that I set it up with". Unless I'm lying about setting up non-techies with Windows 8

a1ien said,
Yes, but I half-agree with Gabe. I can do whatever I want on Windows 7 very quicky with short and precise mouse movements. That is, using the two axes, wheel, and five buttons my mouse provides.

With Windows 8, I have to make large sweeping movements to accomplish most of the same mousing tasks. Just geometrically, this is not as fast. And along with the start menu, one of my favorite features is gone: the recently used files for all my most used programs (big deal breaker).

But obviously I'm not going to rage quit on the entire PC. Gabe is a smart marketer who co-founded a really big company. That suggestion of his is obviously a headlining ploy.

But the more I use Windows 8, the more positive I am that I'm sticking with Windows 7 for now. If too many people in charge of rolling PCs out feel the same way, MS might lose more than it gains from pandering to grandfathers.

Also, here's hoping the next service pack for Windows 7 can include some of the under-the-hood improvements in Windows 8.

Finally a sensible well supported argument on this article without trying undermine the persons with a contrasting opinion. Furthermore, I completely agree with you.

SPARTdAN said,

Not true. The non techies I had given Windows 8 to have struggled to close apps to shut down, to get to start. It's not intuitive. For me, I found this enjoyable to learn however.

Seriously, not this again. Stop spreading FUD. You're not supposed to close apps in day to day use, yet there is a discoverable way to do so if for some reason you absolutely must regain those few pixels of space in task manager. All is just as with iOS and Android, which strangely ARE considered intuitive by you people.

Not finding start? They obviously missed the tutorial that tells you one thing, and one thing alone. How to open the charms panel to operate the new UI. Also the key on the keyboard for getting to start hasn't changed, neither has the location of the start button on screen, it's just hidden until you move your mouse there. Again as indicated by the tutorial that says move your mouse into any corner.

Now the shutdown commands I agree should not be placed inside a settings menu, but once you know they're there it's neither hard nor time consuming to gain access to them. Or, Win+I takes you straight there.

PC EliTiST said,

lol... a few 'geeks' only got Win 8 already, but he has solid opinion about all others, the wider market. Interesting, indeed

Yeah, it's not like there was a consumer preview available to the general public for months. Wait, what?

a1ien said,
Yes, but I half-agree with Gabe. I can do whatever I want on Windows 7 very quicky with short and precise mouse movements. That is, using the two axes, wheel, and five buttons my mouse provides.

With Windows 8, I have to make large sweeping movements to accomplish most of the same mousing tasks. Just geometrically, this is not as fast. And along with the start menu, one of my favorite features is gone: the recently used files for all my most used programs (big deal breaker).

But obviously I'm not going to rage quit on the entire PC. Gabe is a smart marketer who co-founded a really big company. That suggestion of his is obviously a headlining ploy.

But the more I use Windows 8, the more positive I am that I'm sticking with Windows 7 for now. If too many people in charge of rolling PCs out feel the same way, MS might lose more than it gains from pandering to grandfathers.

Also, here's hoping the next service pack for Windows 7 can include some of the under-the-hood improvements in Windows 8.

i'm still trying to figure out what it is people are doing with their computers that is SO much HARDER to do on Windows 8.

please please please give me an example. just one. or even better, gimme three.

Dot Matrix said,
Waaa waaa. I haven't. Put on your big boy pants, Gabe.

You should really find a way for microsoft to pay you, you're really a good representative of them in this moment, a bit arrogant if I'm allowed to say.

Arceles said,

You should really find a way for microsoft to pay you, you're really a good representative of them in this moment, a bit arrogant if I'm allowed to say.


it's his opinion, get over yourself. just because he has a positive opinion about an os doesn't mean...oh, what's the use even telling you?...

Arceles said,

You should really find a way for microsoft to pay you, you're really a good representative of them in this moment, a bit arrogant if I'm allowed to say.

+1

aviator189 said,

it's his opinion, get over yourself. just because he has a positive opinion about an os doesn't mean...oh, what's the use even telling you?...

Agreed

aviator189 said,

it's his opinion, get over yourself. just because he has a positive opinion about an os doesn't mean...oh, what's the use even telling you?...

I could tell you the very same to your comment, just changing the part where a person likes the os, in this case many don't like it either. BTW, do I have already a reputation of not listening or why the "what's the point of telling you"? I mean, the only one defending it like if there is no tomorrow is Dot Matrix, which has lots of time to do it, I don't.

Arceles said,

I mean, the only one defending it like if there is no tomorrow is Dot Matrix, which has lots of time to do it, I don't.

Because people seem animate about complaining about some feature or expressing frustrations that have been answered long ago. There's reasons for the way Windows 8 is. Things are changing.

Dot Matrix said,
Waaa waaa. I haven't. Put on your big boy pants, Gabe.

Sure, make fun of him. But when his predictions come true then we'll see who's laughing.

Dot Matrix said,
Waaa waaa. I haven't. Put on your big boy pants, Gabe.

Whatever Gabe says, truth or not, the captain wants to steer his ship out of a storm. I personally support Steam due to countless sales which makes playing games possible without pirating. Windows 8 ModernUI based games are for kids and farmville type public who like to touch anything they feel like. Microsoft can't force Serious AAA games like COD or SimCity, etc to be on ModernUI platform as they simply cannot be played on tablets with same precision as on Legacy/Ancient/redundant/out of style/for old people platform called desktop. They will still remain on steam/origin whatever till eternity.

Dot Matrix said,

Because people seem animate about complaining about some feature or expressing frustrations that have been answered long ago. There's reasons for the way Windows 8 is. Things are changing.


The difference is he runs a wildly successful videogame company with decades of experience of different Windows platforms and how they work. He is highly respected in his field and his opinions are usually highly regarded.

I'd take what he says over some Windows 8 fanboy.

Dot Matrix said,
Waaa waaa. I haven't. Put on your big boy pants, Gabe.

That tablet interface is new and yes, people will struggle at first, but the desktop Windows 8 is the old familiar Windows 7, don't understand what the big deal is????

Arceles said,

You should really find a way for microsoft to pay you, you're really a good representative of them in this moment, a bit arrogant if I'm allowed to say.

Right, as opposed to someone who claims that people who use Win8 will rage quit computing ? I use Win8 exlusively since february and still going strong. Of course by claiming it is hard and complicated to use, he has lost all credibility. Funny you are accusing the guy you responded to from being paid by Microsoft, as the words of the steam guy do have a commercial and biased reason, as this guy is afraid he will feel the existance of a comoeting app store...

Arceles said,

You should really find a way for microsoft to pay you, you're really a good representative of them in this moment, a bit arrogant if I'm allowed to say.

Bah. Gabe Newell is protecting his own product and brand. He's afraid of the Windows 8 Store. So who's the arrogant one here?

Microsoft
Desktop apps that pass our Desktop App Certification can also have app listing pages. These will be discoverable in the Store via searching and browsing, and will include a link to the app developer's website so that customers can purchase the app there.

nub said,
Cool story bro. Last time I tried Win 8 I did rage quit.

But you didn't quit computers like the article says.

People aren't going to stop using computers just because of Windows 8.

TheLegendOfMart said,

The difference is he runs a wildly successful videogame company with decades of experience of different Windows platforms and how they work. He is highly respected in his field and his opinions are usually highly regarded.

I'd take what he says over some Windows 8 fanboy.

He's also a former 'Softie with a history of spitting hatred their way whenever it suits his fancy. Gabe has done great things with Valve, but predicting the market for the OS isn't one of them.

captainjy said,

That tablet interface is new and yes, people will struggle at first, but the desktop Windows 8 is the old familiar Windows 7, don't understand what the big deal is????

Now i work in IT, and i'm still using the pro version of windows 8. Seriously, i love windows 8 and trust me i spend less time on my windows 7 than on windows 8 which is on my virtual machine. It's eye candy but Mr. Gabe Newell is absolutely right, it is no PRODUCTIVE. I'm always up to date on my windows 8 but i need to click a lot more what used to do in windows 7. Still there are disadvantages of windows 8 like snap feature does not work on resolution smaller than 1366x768 where i have a 1280*1024 screen and can not work on a wide screen.

sanke1 said,

Whatever Gabe says, truth or not, the captain wants to steer his ship out of a storm. I personally support Steam due to countless sales which makes playing games possible without pirating. Windows 8 ModernUI based games are for kids and farmville type public who like to touch anything they feel like. Microsoft can't force Serious AAA games like COD or SimCity, etc to be on ModernUI platform as they simply cannot be played on tablets with same precision as on Legacy/Ancient/redundant/out of style/for old people platform called desktop. They will still remain on steam/origin whatever till eternity.

Games don't need shell(desktop or metro(Modern UI)) to run all they need platform(windows ) and direct-X and most of games that can run under Windows will be available in store(direct or indirect).

captainjy said,

That tablet interface is new and yes, people will struggle at first, but the desktop Windows 8 is the old familiar Windows 7, don't understand what the big deal is????


It should not be a big deal but it seems some people are not happy if they do not have something to complain about justified or not. And in the case with Windows 8 there is no justification for it what so ever. Everything you could do with Windows 7 you can do with Windows 8 with the same or fewer mouse clicks. The start menu is really still there it just that now you do not have click on the start menu and then click all programs then scroll to the folder you what then click on it the click on the file you what to start instead with Windows 8 you just open the metro menu and scroll to the program you what and start it! Ultimately fewer mouse clicks and over all faster. But with out something to complain about some are not happy and the sad thing is most of them have not even tried Windows 8 period and yet complain about it pathetic.

Arceles said,

You should really find a way for microsoft to pay you, you're really a good representative of them in this moment, a bit arrogant if I'm allowed to say.

Issue here is Win8 isn't needed with all these changes but MS wants people to go towards a unified system so they don't have to spend the money on two diff platforms from tablets to PC's. PC makers like Dell should be worried cause this will likely push more tablet use and people away from computers altogether.

Toysoldier said,
"hl2.exe has crashed" - makes me wanna rage quit

You know what, that happened a lot when HL2 got released on my PC.
Gabe Newell can stuff it (he probably does every day). Calling Windows 8 a catastrophe when he deserves a fatasstrophy. On a serious note though...
Every (non-tech) "Joe Schmoe" that I have presented Windows 8 to loves it and loves the fact that everything is available to them on one screen and eliminates a LOT of extra clicks once properly set up. Sure it's a culture shock when you go over from Windows 7, but you get used to it in no time if you know what you are doing.
Gabe's whining like a baby because there is only one thing that will be able to annihilate Steam and that is the Windows Store. Windows 8 will be installed on tons of OEM PC's and tablets/laptops and the Store will be an ease of use many will roll into and not look further. It'll also contain pretty much everything a PC user would want, apps, Xbox 360 and PC games, music, video, etc. That is why all of a sudden you see Steam going to sell applications and other software, because they know they will be outclassed by a Store that is installed per default on millions of PC's. The userbase could outgrow Steam's in a matter of months.
And the apps on the store don't have to be ModernUI, so Gabe can put Steam on there if he wants to. If people will use it after they see the Store is another matter, that is why it is competition.
I still like Steam though, have used it since HL2 and never looked at another online store for PC games since, but I will put it out there that the Windows Store is very enticing and easy to use. If the Windows Store is able to match Steam's deals, it's over for Steam, no doubt about it as it is one Microsoft Account for all their supported devices and the Store caters to that premise with flying colors.

Edited by Thief000, Aug 17 2012, 6:07am :

Toysoldier said,
"hl2.exe has crashed" - makes me wanna rage quit

I wish someone will say it to him while he's talking about Windows 8. And remind that Steam client is still buggy (a lot less buggy than 2008, though).

On a tablet, the interface is very nice indeed. I think Microsoft is really on the right track, and I believe the tablets will be a big concurrent for the iPad. On a desktop however, it just doesn't work well enough to be productive with. Metro doesn't fit big Desktop screens, the mouse and keyboard are horrible to use with it. So, people will end up ignoring Metro on the desktop. The problem is that it can't be fully ignored. It's in your face every time you start up, every time you want to quicklaunch something through search, and all the little things together makes Windows 8 horrible to use on a desktop in my opinion.

The real solution is the same way Apple splits their OS's. Just give the desktop-OS features from the mobile OS that are usable, and give the mobile OS features from the desktop that are usable.

Windows RT and Windows 8 should be separate OS's. They could modernise the desktop, they could make a App Store like the Mac AppStore. They could force a new style. But they can't force users to use a touch-interface with a mouse and keyboard! I think this'll be the biggest mistake Microsoft ever made (including ME and Vista )

Toysoldier said,
"hl2.exe has crashed" - makes me wanna rage quit

When I see hl3.exe has crashed, then I will be happy, doesn't matter what version of windows or linux i play it on

Vasya_Vodochkin said,

I wish someone will say it to him while he's talking about Windows 8. And remind that Steam client is still buggy (a lot less buggy than 2008, though).

what you think win7 doesn't have bugs? still to this date, or that win8 wont either? bugs isn't the topic here, its usability on a desktop platform, unless of course this is MS plan all along, i.e. kill of the desktop. I completely agree with Gabe.

What I do to combat that is install a mac type dock, and put all my apps I use mostly on that, theres idock and others out there they still work in win 8. However I think yall are wrong, I think metro type apps are gonna take off as just like on a phone there will be an app for just about everything, plus a lot will be free. And even the pay one will 1.99 or so. And your views about win will make as much sense as one hand clapping. Microsoft and others already have new mouse and trackpads out to help in the transition, I saw some today. In the future all our desktops and laptops will be in the garbage all replaced with new innovations, 5 years from now when you show a kid a mouse hell say what's that. I will be all touch based interfaces

Dannydekr said,
On a tablet, the interface is very nice indeed. I think Microsoft is really on the right track, and I believe the tablets will be a big concurrent for the iPad. On a desktop however, it just doesn't work well enough to be productive with. Metro doesn't fit big Desktop screens, the mouse and keyboard are horrible to use with it. So, people will end up ignoring Metro on the desktop. The problem is that it can't be fully ignored. It's in your face every time you start up, every time you want to quicklaunch something through search, and all the little things together makes Windows 8 horrible to use on a desktop in my opinion.

The real solution is the same way Apple splits their OS's. Just give the desktop-OS features from the mobile OS that are usable, and give the mobile OS features from the desktop that are usable.

Windows RT and Windows 8 should be separate OS's. They could modernise the desktop, they could make a App Store like the Mac AppStore. They could force a new style. But they can't force users to use a touch-interface with a mouse and keyboard! I think this'll be the biggest mistake Microsoft ever made (including ME and Vista )