HTC Windows Phone 7 Devices seeing bugs, other issues

After a rush of early Windows Phone 7 adopters got their hands on their new devices yesterday, the first problems are starting to rear their ugly heads. 

The main problem seems to affect only HTC based devices that are trying to run one of the most marketed features of Windows Phone 7, Xbox Live Extras. The free download has been out for a few days now, but most HTC users who have downloaded it, myself included, just have the application crash on launch. There have been other Xbox Live related crashes too, with achievements not loading and other more minor issues.

A quick look at the Windows Phone 7 marketplace review rating for Xbox Live Extras shows that it isn't just a few devices either. The HTC trophy, HD7 and Mozart are all suffering from the same problems. We put in a request to Microsoft last night to try and find out when it may be fixed but we have yet to hear back.

Other early issues for Windows Phone 7 users seem to be GPS based, with the GPS hardware on some devices (Not just HTC) showing up as quite a long distance away from where they are actually based and the GPS finding it hard to get locations in general. I have spoken to a few other users who say when they are out and about, the devices are showing them sometimes over half a mile away from where they are located.

Long game load times are also being reported, with even small titles running around 80mb taking over a minute to load into the actual games themselves. This is a far cry from the fast speeds being shown in games on both iPhone and Android operating systems. It is currently unknown if this is just due to first generation games or if it is a Windows Phone 7 issue.

You can check out our Neowin Windows Phone 7 review right here.

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Already fragmentation has caused a bad taste in WP7 users' mouths. MS should have gone it alone on this, not depend on third parties who can't be trusted with such an important product.

All iPhones are the same. All user experiences are the same. Updates can be pushed to all customers within 24 hours if there's an emergency (as seen with 4.0.2 for closing the exploits allowing userland rooting). They "just work", and they're fast. It's a great strategy.

Im willing to bet the game speed is because MS is forcing developers to write managed apps, and if the WM7 .Net CLR is as bad as the 360's, that explains the long load times. And the garbage collector is really slow even on optimized applications. How many cores does the WM7 cpu have?

Also the first thing I saw when XNA 4.0 was released that WM 7 as of now anyway, doesn't support custom shaders...

WP v.1 and some of you expect it to be flawless? Okay back to reality please. If this is one of the few problems with a BRAND NEW OS to be introduced to the mass market then I would say that it is FLAWLESS. Windows Mobile users give it a rest and move foward. MS while trying to support WM 6.1-6.5 had to put its efforts into one of their most critical projects. It looks like it has paid off and the base for them moving foward is a great starting point. It can only get better and right now its pretty damn good. I love my Android handsets but I am anxiously waiting to get my hands on the HD7 or the Dell Venu Pro maybe both. If it were only on AT&T instead of TMOBILE. Nothing against TMOBILE but they dont have the best coverage in the places I travel or where I reside.

MS has address the bug and testing it right now. So are on it and will remain on it. You can bet your house on that. They have a lot to prove to the world and this is a critical moment for them in the mobile market. If they remain as proactive as they have been with security updates and updates in general for Windows 7 then they have a shot at really making a lot of gains in the mobile space.

This just the beginning of more problems to come. The (Please forgive us for screwing you over on the last Windows mobile phone and give us another chance phone) Windows Phone 7 is all trail and error at this point. I am mad at how Microsoft totally negelected us current Windows Mobile Customers who have 6.5 and below. As of right now we have no working applications for Facebook, Twitter, Windows Live Messenger, or anything. I have always been a Microsoft fan, but after what i have seen lately, I am almost ready to just throw the towel in and make Apple iPhone my next purchase.

I've never used Windows Mobile, but after some cursory searching, it looks as though 6.5 was released only about a year ago. Is that right? If so, from an outsiders point of view, your complaints seem completely valid. They are really no apps for Facebook, Twitter, Windows Live Messenger?

JSYOUNG571 said,
This just the beginning of more problems to come. The (Please forgive us for screwing you over on the last Windows mobile phone and give us another chance phone) Windows Phone 7 is all trail and error at this point. I am mad at how Microsoft totally negelected us current Windows Mobile Customers who have 6.5 and below. As of right now we have no working applications for Facebook, Twitter, Windows Live Messenger, or anything. I have always been a Microsoft fan, but after what i have seen lately, I am almost ready to just throw the towel in and make Apple iPhone my next purchase.

They shouldn't focus on old products - we need all the focus on Windows Phone 7. Just get a new Windows Phone when it's time to upgrade your contract.

I don't think this phone is really 'trial and error'. I have a HTC Mozart and it's brilliant. The OS certainly feels like a finished, polished OS and I've had no problems with it (other than trying to access Xbox Live Extras, but that's probably a software issue and I don't play Xbox anyway, I was just checking them out ).

JSYOUNG571 said,
This just the beginning of more problems to come. The (Please forgive us for screwing you over on the last Windows mobile phone and give us another chance phone) Windows Phone 7 is all trail and error at this point. I am mad at how Microsoft totally negelected us current Windows Mobile Customers who have 6.5 and below. As of right now we have no working applications for Facebook, Twitter, Windows Live Messenger, or anything. I have always been a Microsoft fan, but after what i have seen lately, I am almost ready to just throw the towel in and make Apple iPhone my next purchase.

You're wrong. There are multiple Twitter clients, including an official one. There is a Facebook app, in addition to the best-in-class Facebook integration, and there is a Windows Live Messenger app. I wouldn't 'throw in the towel' just yet.

You buy a new Hyundai Accent then complain about its lack of quality and features about 3-4 years later!? Do you really expect that when they come out with the new model, your old one will turn into a Lamborgini?

Man... do your homeworks before buying a product! I'm a microsoft fan but I'm also aware that at that time, there were a lot of better options out there!

MobileTechWorld:

Microsoft has officially announced that an update to the Xbox Live Extras Windows Phone 7 application will be available soon after a bug that apparently only affects HTC handsets prevents the application from correctly launching.

"To that end, we've gotten reports of users launching Xbox LIVE Extras where it appears to hang at a black screen and is returned to the Start screen several seconds later on some phones.

We have identified this issue and have an update currently making its way through certification, we hope to have this update available to you in the next few days. While this may not work for everyone, you can try hitting the back key after returning to the start menu and Xbox LIVE Extras should restart normally.

There are many of you who use props on your avatar, and you receive a “Could not find your prop, please try again later.”

Many of the props on Xbox 360 are being converted for their use with the new Xbox LIVE Dashboard and Kinect launch. Because of this some of the props have not been converted for use on Windows Phone at this time. More of these are added daily so expect this issue to disappear over time."

I just had a quick look at the Marketplace and sure enough the Xbox Live Extras app is no longer available. Hopefully Microsoft will also fix the stupid camera software bug which seems to be present on all device (your settings aren't saved when you close the app) and several other problems like long loading times on some games.

Long game load times are also being reported, with even small titles running around 80mb taking over a minute to load into the actual games themselves. This is a far cry from the fast speeds being shown in games on both iPhone and Android operating systems. It is currently unknown if this is just due to first generation games or if it is a Windows Phone 7 issue.

Wow, I think this will be a deal breaker for a lot of gamers out there.

It's to be expected, every new device has it's teething problems. No matter how much extensive testing you do, you can never be 100% certain you won't have any issues. The real test here is how quickly these issues get resolved.

Consider that WP7 is a new OS and just like every new OS it may have problems... What about ios or android early versions? And they didn't have all the features that WP7 has at launch...

I have spoken to a few other users who say when they are out and about, the devices are showing them sometimes over half a mile away from where they are located.

Well, anyone that has read up on the GPS in WP7 should expect this, as apps can use two different types of location based determination. The quicker (And less demanding) of the two doesn't get you as close...

M_Lyons10 said,

Well, anyone that has read up on the GPS in WP7 should expect this, as apps can use two different types of location based determination. The quicker (And less demanding) of the two doesn't get you as close...

I've tried both and they seem to still show the wrong locations. Fingers crossed its just a simple bug rather than anything else and I guess it's expected on first edition software

Byron_Hinson said,

I've tried both and they seem to still show the wrong locations. Fingers crossed its just a simple bug rather than anything else and I guess it's expected on first edition software

I hope that it is resolved as well (And I'm sure it will be). Out of curiosity, is this in something within the OS that it's "off", or in an app? Because if there is a setting in the OS (Which I honestly have not seen to be honest), it won't affect apps, as they decide on their own which method they use to ascertain the user's location. Because they may not need to know exactly where you are. If they are trying to give you turn by turn directions for example, they need to know where you are. But if they are just trying to show you stores nearby, they don't. A general idea is good enough. So why drain the battery unnecessarily for that app? So, out of curiosity, where are you seeing this issue? Is it something like Bing that is baked into the OS, or is it an app?

M_Lyons10 said,

I hope that it is resolved as well (And I'm sure it will be). Out of curiosity, is this in something within the OS that it's "off", or in an app? Because if there is a setting in the OS (Which I honestly have not seen to be honest), it won't affect apps, as they decide on their own which method they use to ascertain the user's location. Because they may not need to know exactly where you are. If they are trying to give you turn by turn directions for example, they need to know where you are. But if they are just trying to show you stores nearby, they don't. A general idea is good enough. So why drain the battery unnecessarily for that app? So, out of curiosity, where are you seeing this issue? Is it something like Bing that is baked into the OS, or is it an app?

Bing Maps, Twitter, HTC Location etc - every app even built in are showing long distances away. Without paying for a navigation app, which may be useless if this is the case, I can't find out for sure if even Bing Maps decides to use triangulation

A few problems on day one, have your fun, I'm just glad we finally have our Phone. Suck on it Apple, oh yea, and keep buying that stock, you can't go wrong there, no risk at all, as a matter of fact, put all your money into it. Put your money where your mouths are and talk to me in 6 months.

Honestly? Really?

None on the iOS devices have had any actual problems. INCLUDING 'Antennagate' Apple hid nothing, there was no coverup, and iPhone 4 is the fastest selling iPhone in the company's history. If that's worse than WP7 *not working* then your logic fails me...

vince.macintyre said,
Honestly? Really?

None on the iOS devices have had any actual problems. INCLUDING 'Antennagate' Apple hid nothing, there was no coverup, and iPhone 4 is the fastest selling iPhone in the company's history. If that's worse than WP7 *not working* then your logic fails me...

You are being serious when saying that there wasn't a cover up with 'Antennagate'? I don't remember anything ever saying that Apple admitted it was a fault.

vince.macintyre said,
Honestly? Really?

None on the iOS devices have had any actual problems. INCLUDING 'Antennagate' Apple hid nothing, there was no coverup, and iPhone 4 is the fastest selling iPhone in the company's history. If that's worse than WP7 *not working* then your logic fails me...

Patently false. The issues with iPhone 4 were well documented and have already been argued ad nauseum. You just couldn't resist trolling this thread huh? I mean, at least this phone works out of the box. An app crash? Welcome to smartphones baby.

Quikboy said,
Further proves my point that I felt HTC wasn't trying as hard as they could to make great WP7 devices.

I can't see any company releasing hardware with the hope that they will fail, especially multiple handsets

Mike Frett said,
What did you guys expect?

A flawless, problem free launch like the iPhone 4........... oh wait..... ya... haha.

autobon said,

A flawless, problem free launch like the iPhone 4........... oh wait..... ya... haha.


And it's not like this is the 4th time of trying for MS either... given this is essentially version 1.0 of a totally new platform rather than an incremental update to 3 previous ones like with iOS 4.0, it's bound to have problems. Compare the quality to iOS 1.0

autobon said,

A flawless, problem free launch like the iPhone 4........... oh wait..... ya... haha.

Interesting: Joe Smith did not buy a iPhone, he was looking for a WP7 one and bought it; now he sees issues. What concerns him is the problems with the phone he bought and paid not with other ones......

TCLN Ryster said,

And it's not like this is the 4th time of trying for MS either... given this is essentially version 1.0 of a totally new platform rather than an incremental update to 3 previous ones like with iOS 4.0, it's bound to have problems. Compare the quality to iOS 1.0

Exactly. And an update to the app will likely fix all of that... We're not looking at problems like an antenna that can't make or receive calls, or a screen that's defective... Software quirks can be fixed.

I don't think the XBL extras are that big a deal for now. We knew that WP7 games didn't load as fast.

The GPS thing is a bit perplexing however.

majg said,
I don't think the XBL extras are that big a deal for now. We knew that WP7 games didn't load as fast.

The GPS thing is a bit perplexing however.

Because the app is likely using the less demanding (But less exact) GPS functionality built into the phone. They can get a more precise location, but it affects battery life and such, and takes longer for the phone to determine.

M_Lyons10 said,

Because the app is likely using the less demanding (But less exact) GPS functionality built into the phone. They can get a more precise location, but it affects battery life and such, and takes longer for the phone to determine.

Maybe this is where I am misunderstanding something - in Windows Phone 7 you get the option to select using the more precise location and use up more battery life. That is selected and it's still a long way out. If it's just App's choosing which one to use it's a bad method in my view when I feel they should let the user choose.

Byron_Hinson said,

Maybe this is where I am misunderstanding something - in Windows Phone 7 you get the option to select using the more precise location and use up more battery life. That is selected and it's still a long way out. If it's just App's choosing which one to use it's a bad method in my view when I feel they should let the user choose.

Apps are able to decide what method makes the most sense for what they're doing.

Turn by turn directions, the app needs to know exactly where you are, battery be damned...

Finding out what stores are nearby? Not so much. A general idea of where you are is enough.

And the App Developer knows this and can make a choice. As a user, you would assume, more precise is better and use that all the time, which would drain battery when you don't need that. If a setting exists in WP7 (Which I haven't seen to be honest), then that is likely for the OS only, as Apps set this themselves when they make that GPS call.

bj55555 said,

Rushing developers developing in a rush leads to problems. Don't rush the update too, MS.

It's likely something simple like a missing reference or something (For it to crash at startup)... I'm sure they've already figured out the problem...

M_Lyons10 said,

It's likely something simple like a missing reference or something (For it to crash at startup)... I'm sure they've already figured out the problem...

Yeah agreed, just a shame their certification for fixes takes a long time.

If the GPS is out by half a mile it is probably just triangulated from phone masts, im sure if the users concerned were in a more open space they would have no problems. And so far the HTC units are more easy to buy so that is probably why there are reported more reported problems with ONE badly coded app on these particular models.

SAmigo said,
If the GPS is out by half a mile it is probably just triangulated from phone masts, im sure if the users concerned were in a more open space they would have no problems. And so far the HTC units are more easy to buy so that is probably why there are reported more reported problems with ONE badly coded app on these particular models.

While we as "educated" IT people might accept that, someone who doesn't actually know about the technology behind it only knows one thing. It doesn't work right. Hopefully they fix the issues with the more popular features before it turns into people just saying the new OS sucks and goes for something else.

ILikeTobacco said,

While we as "educated" IT people might accept that, someone who doesn't actually know about the technology behind it only knows one thing. It doesn't work right. Hopefully they fix the issues with the more popular features before it turns into people just saying the new OS sucks and goes for something else.

I agree. But Neowin should know this sort of stuff. Especially since everyone should at this point know that the OS is capable of two different types of GPS triangulation. One, using cell towers, that is less precise, but less demanding, and one more true to GPS that is more demanding on the battery and hardware, and takes longer to determine... So, I'm sure that whatever app they're referring to here (Which they don't mention of course), is doing the former. Probably because it doesn't give you directions or something that would NEED your precise location, so it didn't feel it necessary to make the user wait...

ILikeTobacco said,

While we as "educated" IT people might accept that, someone who doesn't actually know about the technology behind it only knows one thing. It doesn't work right. Hopefully they fix the issues with the more popular features before it turns into people just saying the new OS sucks and goes for something else.

It goes both ways. We as "educated IT people" may understand stuff about GPS, but equally, we as "educated IT people" are the only people that give a damn. If I fire up Bing and do a local search, and something it displays as a result, it tells me is 500m further away than it really is, I'm not going to give a crap. As a user, you expect it to be mostly right, most of the time. People's expectations aren't actually that high.

And of course, on WP7, GPS isn't as simple as GPS. It's about *Location*. Apps make certain requests such as what precision of information they would like about the device location, and the OS-level Location manager makes a decision about how to supply that information. If the GPS chip is spun up, battery levels are good, and it's a high precision request, it will probably supply that location information to the app using the GPS signal. In contrast, if the battery level was fairly low, and there were multiple cell towers nearby, the phone will make a balanced decision to supply information using cell triangulation combined with the digital compass.

M_Lyons10 said,

I agree. But Neowin should know this sort of stuff. Especially since everyone should at this point know that the OS is capable of two different types of GPS triangulation. One, using cell towers, that is less precise, but less demanding, and one more true to GPS that is more demanding on the battery and hardware, and takes longer to determine... So, I'm sure that whatever app they're referring to here (Which they don't mention of course), is doing the former. Probably because it doesn't give you directions or something that would NEED your precise location, so it didn't feel it necessary to make the user wait...

Twitter, Bing Maps, HTC Location etc. If that helps. I'm just judging it by my Android and iPhone GPS's - never been so far out compared to this. I've changed the GPS settings too and there seems little difference. I agree though, to me it is using triangulation, but that's obviously an "uneducated" guess

ILikeTobacco said,

While we as "educated" IT people might accept that, someone who doesn't actually know about the technology behind it only knows one thing. It doesn't work right. Hopefully they fix the issues with the more popular features before it turns into people just saying the new OS sucks and goes for something else.

The thing is, even an Android or iPhone will be off at times as well. Anyone that daily uses a Droid or an iPhone knows this, and I don't hear people in the street claiming they are crap or faulty.

If there is a real technical issue, it needs to be addressed, but if it is the device not getting GPS and not getting accurate cellular location information, it is a normal issue with all phones.

(BTW even the cell providers don't always have accurate readings on their towers, from transfer and failures to even temporary installs there is a massive amount of tower information that changes daily that the cell companies don't even track. There are a lot of towers literally sitting on trailers on leased land waiting for the permanent installations, and these temp towers can move 500ft in a day and not be tracked or compensated for by the tower owners or the cell companies leasing the antenna space on them.)

thenetavenger said,

The thing is, even an Android or iPhone will be off at times as well. Anyone that daily uses a Droid or an iPhone knows this, and I don't hear people in the street claiming they are crap or faulty.

If there is a real technical issue, it needs to be addressed, but if it is the device not getting GPS and not getting accurate cellular location information, it is a normal issue with all phones.

(BTW even the cell providers don't always have accurate readings on their towers, from transfer and failures to even temporary installs there is a massive amount of tower information that changes daily that the cell companies don't even track. There are a lot of towers literally sitting on trailers on leased land waiting for the permanent installations, and these temp towers can move 500ft in a day and not be tracked or compensated for by the tower owners or the cell companies leasing the antenna space on them.)

That's interesting. I did not know that at all. That adds another layer of complexity to the whole triangulation via cell tower method. I imagine that could very well also be causing a problem here...

Byron_Hinson said,

Twitter, Bing Maps, HTC Location etc. If that helps. I'm just judging it by my Android and iPhone GPS's - never been so far out compared to this. I've changed the GPS settings too and there seems little difference. I agree though, to me it is using triangulation, but that's obviously an "uneducated" guess

Could be a hardware problem, Samsung Galaxy S had awful problems with it's GPS, I hope they are fixed now via firmware since it's the phone I want if WP7 fails miserably.

I have heard most titles take about 3 mins to load. This really blows considering MS has invested so much in testing devices so that they are free of problems

Surprisingly no one who reviewed the phone [ Except long load times ] reported these issues

StandingInAlley said,
I have heard most titles take about 3 mins to load. This really blows considering MS has invested so much in testing devices so that they are free of problems

Surprisingly no one who reviewed the phone [ Except long load times ] reported these issues

"Most games"? Talk about misinformation! Please don't continue spreading this nonsense. It's utter (snipped).

Edited by Eric, Oct 23 2010, 5:03pm :

StandingInAlley said,
I have heard most titles take about 3 mins to load. This really blows considering MS has invested so much in testing devices so that they are free of problems

Surprisingly no one who reviewed the phone [ Except long load times ] reported these issues


Yeah, and I've also "heard" every single iPhone 4 device has antenna problems, and it's completely impossible to make calls using iPhone 4.

bj55555 said,

"Most games"? Talk about misinformation! Please don't continue spreading this nonsense. It's utter (snipped).

A number of games take a while, but considering there are not that many out there and the ones that have been released are pretty buggy it'll be a while before we know how badly they load in general

Edited by Eric, Oct 23 2010, 5:09pm :

bj55555 said,

"Most games"? Talk about misinformation! Please don't continue spreading this nonsense. It's utter (snipped).

+1.

Edited by Eric, Oct 23 2010, 5:19pm :

StandingInAlley said,
I have heard most titles take about 3 mins to load. This really blows considering MS has invested so much in testing devices so that they are free of problems

Surprisingly no one who reviewed the phone [ Except long load times ] reported these issues

If you do some research, the load times have a couple of common factors, with the main one being Network/Internet access. If the game is waiting for XBox Live to give it information over the cellular network, and your connection is crap or spotty, it is going to be a bit slower before it times out.

The other thing to note is that some of these games on WP7 are 5 to 10 times the size and compexity of games on the iPhone or Android. A 5-10mb Game is large on iOS and Android, yet a 100mb Game is not uncommon on WP7. It makes sense why it might have a longer load time, especially when some of these games are doing graphics at the level of the original XBox that loaded a ton of information from a DVD that it is having to decompress on the fly instead.

If you want higher quality games, and Live integration, a bit longer load time is to be expected even when there are not glitches in the new devices and the network.

thenetavenger said,

If you do some research, the load times have a couple of common factors, with the main one being Network/Internet access. If the game is waiting for XBox Live to give it information over the cellular network, and your connection is crap or spotty, it is going to be a bit slower before it times out.

The other thing to note is that some of these games on WP7 are 5 to 10 times the size and compexity of games on the iPhone or Android. A 5-10mb Game is large on iOS and Android, yet a 100mb Game is not uncommon on WP7. It makes sense why it might have a longer load time, especially when some of these games are doing graphics at the level of the original XBox that loaded a ton of information from a DVD that it is having to decompress on the fly instead.

If you want higher quality games, and Live integration, a bit longer load time is to be expected even when there are not glitches in the new devices and the network.

Have to say I'm playing a lot of iPhone titles over 100mb and not one takes anywhere near as long as these to load up, certainly the Windows Phone 7 games are not currently showing off anything better than the iPhone can do right now - although in the future I hope they do.

The live integration right now is very basic too as right now its basically achievements, no multiplayer etc so it doesn't justify 1+ minute load times.

thenetavenger said,

The other thing to note is that some of these games on WP7 are 5 to 10 times the size and compexity of games on the iPhone or Android. A 5-10mb Game is large on iOS and Android, yet a 100mb Game is not uncommon on WP7. k.


You're talking nonsense. a 5-10mb is large on iOS? Admit it you don't know what you're onabout, I have yet to find a single game 5-10mb on iOS, average is 50-60mb, some are 250mb.

Cyborg_X said,
What games have long load times? Ground up WP7 games or ported ?

New titles and some of the ported ones. The Harvest for example, nearly a minute. You just sit there waiting. Got to say for me this is pretty poor as you expect mobile games to load fast. Heck even UMD loading PSP games don't take this long

Byron_Hinson said,
New titles and some of the ported ones. The Harvest for example, nearly a minute. You just sit there waiting. Got to say for me this is pretty poor as you expect mobile games to load fast. Heck even UMD loading PSP games don't take this long
Whose fault is it though? Are game developers lazily loading all resources at startup? On a higher resolution screen, higher resolution textures will take longer to load, and doing so up front is going to provide for terrible performance. Hopefully the game developers realized this as they were developing on their fast PCs. I'd bet that a lot of the software that is broken likely suffers because the developer did not have a demo phone. Hopefully.

No developer wants to see those startup times because it's a pain to test when it does, but if they did not see it on the test machine (not phone), then it's hard to avoid.

pickypg said,
Whose fault is it though? Are game developers lazily loading all resources at startup? On a higher resolution screen, higher resolution textures will take longer to load, and doing so up front is going to provide for terrible performance. Hopefully the game developers realized this as they were developing on their fast PCs. I'd bet that a lot of the software that is broken likely suffers because the developer did not have a demo phone. Hopefully.

No developer wants to see those startup times because it's a pain to test when it does, but if they did not see it on the test machine (not phone), then it's hard to avoid.

Well most of the problem titles are Microsoft developed ones so it isn't a good excuse is it. Fingers crossed it improves in the future.

pickypg said,
Whose fault is it though? Are game developers lazily loading all resources at startup? On a higher resolution screen, higher resolution textures will take longer to load, and doing so up front is going to provide for terrible performance. Hopefully the game developers realized this as they were developing on their fast PCs. I'd bet that a lot of the software that is broken likely suffers because the developer did not have a demo phone. Hopefully.

No developer wants to see those startup times because it's a pain to test when it does, but if they did not see it on the test machine (not phone), then it's hard to avoid.

Games that take longer than 20 seconds to load are denied from the marketplace, I'm surprised Microsoft made a gamebreaking their own rules.

Byron_Hinson
Well most of the problem titles are Microsoft developed ones so it isn't a good excuse is it. Fingers crossed it improves in the future.
With that revelation (I'm the US and thus cannot see any of this playing out), I wonder if this a problem with some of the HTC phones? (Fingers crossed)
Omen1393 said,
Games that take longer than 20 seconds to load are denied from the marketplace, I'm surprised Microsoft made a gamebreaking their own rules.
Microsoft's testing was rigorous, to say the least. I would be stunned to see their own software taking over 20 seconds to start up on properly working hardware. At least I hope that is the case, otherwise they have a very big problem on their hands.

If the hardware is all working as it is expected to be, and this is still happening, then Microsoft is going to kill the platform. I expect that this is not the case though, simply because no sane person could expect that to be a good user experience.

Omen1393 said,

Games that take longer than 20 seconds to load are denied from the marketplace, I'm surprised Microsoft made a gamebreaking their own rules.

any chance its because they are trying to access Xbox live?? I could totally see this happenin in the first few days

Lachlan said,

any chance its because they are trying to access Xbox live?? I could totally see this happenin in the first few days

That very well may be the case. If the game is trying to handshake at startup and is waiting for data to be received it would definitely slow down startup considerably. Especially over a cell network. App developers should have had more sense than to do this, but you may very well be right. It would make a lot of sense.

Omen1393 said,

Games that take longer than 20 seconds to load are denied from the marketplace, I'm surprised Microsoft made a gamebreaking their own rules.

Games must display something within 20 seconds - I.E, load the first screen, which is usually itself a loading screen. From there on in, it's fair game. Unfortunatly, if past experience with ZuneHD is anything to go by - games taking a long time to load is just a characteristic of the XNA framework =/

~Johnny said,

Games must display something within 20 seconds - I.E, load the first screen, which is usually itself a loading screen. From there on in, it's fair game. Unfortunatly, if past experience with ZuneHD is anything to go by - games taking a long time to load is just a characteristic of the XNA framework =/

You keep saying this, and it has nothing to do with XNA, and your ZuneHD example is pure crap.

AudioSurf on the ZuneHD loads in 10-20 seconds; however, if you have 10,000 songs, it will take longer to load as it is using audio library. Common Sense, ok?

If you don't have a lot of music and it is taking more than 20 seconds, then maybe your audio library is foobar, and you need to do a wipe/reset.

PS I'm not even sure AudioSurf uses XNA, as the MS developed games have access to the WinCE hardware API sets, not just XNA.

pickypg said,
With that revelation (I'm the US and thus cannot see any of this playing out), I wonder if this a problem with some of the HTC phones? (Fingers crossed)
Microsoft's testing was rigorous, to say the least. I would be stunned to see their own software taking over 20 seconds to start up on properly working hardware. At least I hope that is the case, otherwise they have a very big problem on their hands.

If the hardware is all working as it is expected to be, and this is still happening, then Microsoft is going to kill the platform. I expect that this is not the case though, simply because no sane person could expect that to be a good user experience.

The long loads affect all hardware, not just HTC

Lachlan said,

any chance its because they are trying to access Xbox live?? I could totally see this happenin in the first few days

No doesn't seem like it, its simply loading the game, the title screens can sometimes load quickly and you are already on live anyway, its the actual data when you start a new game and such that seems to show it most.

thenetavenger said,

You keep saying this, and it has nothing to do with XNA, and your ZuneHD example is pure crap.

AudioSurf on the ZuneHD loads in 10-20 seconds; however, if you have 10,000 songs, it will take longer to load as it is using audio library. Common Sense, ok?

If you don't have a lot of music and it is taking more than 20 seconds, then maybe your audio library is foobar, and you need to do a wipe/reset.

PS I'm not even sure AudioSurf uses XNA, as the MS developed games have access to the WinCE hardware API sets, not just XNA.

Lucky Lanes Bowling: ~10 seconds to title screen, ~10-15 seconds to load a bowling lane.
PGR - 10 seconds to title
Van SK8> 25 seconds to load a level, nearly every menu with loading pauses
Labyrinth - 10 seconds to menu and so on...

And you'll be seeing more complex and demanding games on WP7 than Zune HD. It's not crap - it's the truth. And you'll notice it when you get a WP7 device, if you do. We'll all just have to get over it - end of .

Its going to happen with new devices with such complexity, When a phone was a phone this never happened. No way can you test for EVERY users way they are going to use the device. There is a point when you have to unleash users on your product. From what Ive read Microsoft are doing a very good job!

ChuckFinley said,
Its going to happen with new devices with such complexity, When a phone was a phone this never happened. No way can you test for EVERY users way they are going to use the device. There is a point when you have to unleash users on your product. From what Ive read Microsoft are doing a very good job!

Yep my 2005 Flip phone goes for MONTHS with out ever needing to be rebooted.

ChuckFinley said,
Its going to happen with new devices with such complexity, When a phone was a phone this never happened. No way can you test for EVERY users way they are going to use the device. There is a point when you have to unleash users on your product. From what Ive read Microsoft are doing a very good job!

The point I was trying to make is that it's not as though the problems described are obscure; these are common activities that people would be doing on a daily basis with the phone, so it seems perplexing why it wasn't picked up during the testing period.

ChuckFinley said,
Its going to happen with new devices with such complexity, When a phone was a phone this never happened. No way can you test for EVERY users way they are going to use the device. There is a point when you have to unleash users on your product. From what Ive read Microsoft are doing a very good job!

The problem with the issues above is that we are not talking about cases that would only be caught in exploratory testing. The things that are failing should have been caught by the Acceptance Testing. "but most HTC users who have downloaded it, myself included, just have the application crash on launch." If the App can't even launch properly, it should have no been released yet.

ILikeTobacco said,

The problem with the issues above is that we are not talking about cases that would only be caught in exploratory testing. The things that are failing should have been caught by the Acceptance Testing. "but most HTC users who have downloaded it, myself included, just have the application crash on launch." If the App can't even launch properly, it should have no been released yet.


The App crash only affects HTC phone users for some odd reason.

/- Razorfold said,

The App crash only affects HTC phone users for some odd reason.

And HTC is one of the more popular brands so that means potentially more people will experience the problem. Hopefully not though.

ChuckFinley said,
Its going to happen with new devices with such complexity, When a phone was a phone this never happened. No way can you test for EVERY users way they are going to use the device. There is a point when you have to unleash users on your product. From what Ive read Microsoft are doing a very good job!

What phones have you used? I've been using Cell Phones since the 1990s. Slow loading, choppy animations, games that are almost unplayable because of performance issues, rebooting, etc. It's always been around.

It should be a thing of the past. That's why I was so blown away when I saw the iPhone. It did a million things, and everything was so much better than phones that came before it (such as Windows Mobile, and even my black and white basic phone). It was fast fast fast.

/- Razorfold said,

The App crash only affects HTC phone users for some odd reason.

Well considering that you can only buy apps through the "Market" I would expected MS and hardware vendors to run some tests them prior to make them available to customers.

/- Razorfold said,

The App crash only affects HTC phone users for some odd reason.

Keep in mind that the majority of phones sold so far are HTC ones.

Fritzly said,

Keep in mind that the majority of phones sold so far are HTC ones.

Yep certainly in the shops in my area too. HTC seems the most popular at the moment, but with the host of handsets I'm not surprised.

SK[ said,]

Indeed. 10MB is considered fairly large for a basic app in iOS and Android tbh.

I'm talking about high resolution games, most are above 50mb even on iOS now.

Byron_Hinson said,

I'm talking about high resolution games, most are above 50mb even on iOS now.

Then how can you say "small titles"???

***EDIT*** - my bad...
Anyway, i hope Microsoft or the manufacturers can fix this soon...else it will look real bad...

Yikes... the long load times is what stands out to me. Could be some sort of compatibility issue with the games portion of the phone but I would have assumed they'd do massive testing before releasing them. I'm curious to hear more now...

este said,
Yikes... the long load times is what stands out to me. Could be some sort of compatibility issue with the games portion of the phone but I would have assumed they'd do massive testing before releasing them. I'm curious to hear more now...

Yeah, plus Microsoft set the specs... So it's odd...

este said,
Yikes... the long load times is what stands out to me. Could be some sort of compatibility issue with the games portion of the phone but I would have assumed they'd do massive testing before releasing them. I'm curious to hear more now...

Nawp, I think that's more a characteristic of XNA - if experience on the Zune HD is anything to go buy, loads usually always tended to be quite long on first start (Notably Audiosurf, dear me -.-)

Leave it to Byron Hinson to post negative news about WP7. What happened did ActiveWin boot you off the staff? I saw your name and then read your post and its your typical Byron post. I am REALLY surprised you got a Windows Phone 7 device at all...

If you were actually serious about your problems I would return the HTC unit and go get the Superior LG or Samsung model. Or you could just keep spewing hate about WP7. As it stands it looks like Samsung and LG are the winners in this first gen battle. Really dissapointed with HTC. Its like they didn't even try.

redavenger said,
Leave it to Byron Hinson to post negative news about WP7. What happened did ActiveWin boot you off the staff? I saw your name and then read your post and its your typical Byron post. I am REALLY surprised you got a Windows Phone 7 device at all...

If you were actually serious about your problems I would return the HTC unit and go get the Superior LG or Samsung model. Or you could just keep spewing hate about WP7. As it stands it looks like Samsung and LG are the winners in this first gen battle. Really dissapointed with HTC. Its like they didn't even try.

Afraid the long loads affect all hardware not just the HTC - and Microsoft have admitted the Xbox Love Extras bugs and are releasing a fix in a few days so all is good. Now if they could just sort out the GPS it'll be a good first gen device, again unsure if the GPS issue is across all phones or just the HTC ones again.

As for the devices, I guess it's personal preference, I prefer the feel of the HTC Trophy as I felt the LG was far too heavy, even heavier than the iPhone 4 when I tried it yesterday, I guess that could mean well built, but for me, too heavy.

Byron_Hinson said,

Afraid the long loads affect all hardware not just the HTC - and Microsoft have admitted the Xbox Love Extras bugs and are releasing a fix in a few days so all is good. Now if they could just sort out the GPS it'll be a good first gen device, again unsure if the GPS issue is across all phones or just the HTC ones again.

As for the devices, I guess it's personal preference, I prefer the feel of the HTC Trophy as I felt the LG was far too heavy, even heavier than the iPhone 4 when I tried it yesterday, I guess that could mean well built, but for me, too heavy.


I think what redavenger means is that everything in the post is about something that's wrong with the device, or WP7, now ofcourse you're allowed to say what's wrong, but it makes it look so much better if you also add some stuff that's good about the devices or WP7, makes your post look a lot better, even better if you end it with good news, and facts.

But it's still quite a good post. Thank you for sharing this information.

tele-fragd said,
Surely problems such as these would come up in user testing, right?

Not if you rush an unfinished product without doing any real world testing, like in this case for WindoesPOS.

GayWolf said,

Not if you rush an unfinished product without doing any real world testing, like in this case for WindoesPOS.

The article says it seems to be only on HTC phones, so maybe the problem is with HTC.

GayWolf said,

Not if you rush an unfinished product without doing any real world testing, like in this case for WindoesPOS.

WP7 is the most heavily tested OS Microsoft has ever released. As the issue appears to affect HTC devices, I would assume that there is something wrong there...

Bengal34 said,

The article says it seems to be only on HTC phones, so maybe the problem is with HTC.


It was already reported a week ago that HTC WP7 phones were having problems.

GayWolf said,

Not if you rush an unfinished product without doing any real world testing, like in this case for WindoesPOS.

Source? Evidence?

GayWolf said,

Not if you rush an unfinished product without doing any real world testing, like in this case for WindoesPOS.

With people like him, it's no wonder the world is so screwed as we know it today.

resol612 said,

With people like him, it's no wonder the world is so screwed as we know it today.


With people like me who freely voices out their opinions, instead a blindly following what is told to them like a sheep? Believe me it would be a far better world.

Useless comment, focus on replying to the topic being discussed next time, instead of using personal attacks Mr. Troll.

GayWolf said,

With people like me who freely voices out their opinions, instead a blindly following what is told to them like a sheep? Believe me it would be a far better world.

Useless comment, focus on replying to the topic being discussed next time, instead of using personal attacks Mr. Troll.

You're calling him a troll? Okay..........

GayWolf said,

With people like me who freely voices out their opinions, instead a blindly following what is told to them like a sheep? Believe me it would be a far better world.

Useless comment, focus on replying to the topic being discussed next time, instead of using personal attacks Mr. Troll.


Do you know who to identify a troll? When it uses a word like POS.

day2die said,

Do you know who to identify a troll? When it uses a word like POS.

Theres a typo in my previous comment where it says "WindoesPOS", should be WindowsPOS (as in Windows Phone OS).

chago12 said,

what is this youtube?


You can read the previous comment, right?
And what's wrong with youtube (apart from being very successful and owned by a direct competitor from Microsoft)?
Yeah... We can tell what your point is.

GayWolf said,

You can read the previous comment, right?
And what's wrong with youtube (apart from being very successful and owned by a direct competitor from Microsoft)?
Yeah... We can tell what your point is.

Yeah, bull****. You tried to troll, and got called out when you realized no one wants to support your crap. Back down.