Minecraft's "Notch" latest to bash Windows 8

Windows 8 may have just made its RTM deadline, but a number of high profile PC game creators have already voiced their displeasure over Microsoft's latest OS. Valve founder Gabe Newell was quoted last week as saying he felt that Windows 8 is "a catastrophe for everyone in the PC space." Blizzard executive Rob Pardo then followed up on Newell's statements on his Twitter page by saying that in his opinion, Windows 8 would be "not awesome for Blizzard either."

The latest PC game creator to join the Windows 8 bash train is Markus "Notch" Persson, the creator of the massively selling indie sandbox game Minecraft. In a Reddit AMA chat to help launch the latest 1.3 version of Minecraft, Notch gave his own comments on Windows 8 and actually had some real reasons for his concerns.

He stated:

If Microsoft decides to lock down Windows 8, it would be very, very bad for Indie games and competition in general. If we can keep open platforms around, there's going to be a lot of very interesting games in ten years, mixed in with the huge AAA games that we all love.

Notch has sold the PC version of Minecraft solely on his website since the game launched in its alpha version in 2009. It has now sold over 6.8 million copies and keeps selling between 10,000 to 13,000 copies per day.

Source: Reddit

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Guys, he's mad about the fact that Microsoft's gonna have to approve every app that goes into the Windows Store. The ideal environment for indie developers is being able to release whatever the hell they want...

MASTER260 said,
Guys, he's mad about the fact that Microsoft's gonna have to approve every app that goes into the Windows Store. The ideal environment for indie developers is being able to release whatever the hell they want...

Yep. Apple has censored their store before, and they'll do it again. Microsoft does the same for Windows Phone, and I would imagine also XBLIG. Valve approves titles as well.

I seen one guy here so far go and do research on the specifics early in the comments
and the rest of you obviously didn't read the links he provided did you ?

Too worried about making sure we don't have any cheerleaders jump ship ?

Metrophobia ?
Uhh yeah nice break down of the technical issues surrounding this story
Lets make sure we promote windows 8 at every criticism, because we all know
Microsoft can't do no wrong..

and by the way.. The Metro style is ugly !
(i might as well harp on that too if the cheerleaders are going to at every opportunity)

If they decide to kill Desktop than Metro Screen is new Desktop and infact MS will face same problem dealing with such Desktop as they had to with classic Windows Desktop which is the reason why Metro Screen exist at first place ....gotta love Developers.

I am not sure what App Store could possibly offer to Windows Platform for Desktop that already is not out there. Since i am developer it seems that it comes down to apps which show some html5 content in certain presentable way so you don't have to open web browser type the address and get the same information. It seems there is lot of conflicting app in Windows Eco System now. You have Steam and Metro XBox Live Games. Overall Steam has no match therefore XBOX Live Games does not offer any value here is an interesting thing. There so many games on Steam which also install Game Live Desktop App, it seems like rather a mess. Duplications all over which adds more to confusion. Start Screen wouldn't make sense without Metro Apps but again Desktop vs Metro apps is such big mess. These two can't coexist in the future and something will get killed. I am afraid Windows might turn into lame OS.

Really? I'm running Minecraft on Win8 as we speak. Looks like he's in the clear. He already has my money so as a customer I can say this "stop whining!"

I honestly don't care what this guy says. Everyone is a critic and Windows 8 isn't going to halt or slow down indie production. MS would put a nail in their coffin if that happened. *sigh.*

IMHO Windows 8 is Windows ME or VISTA. Majority of users (casual and hardcore) will not upgrade to it. Just seeing a trend with MS OS's of the past. Just saying.

Yazoo said,
IMHO Windows 8 is Windows ME or VISTA. Majority of users (casual and hardcore) will not upgrade to it. Just seeing a trend with MS OS's of the past. Just saying.

I'd argue W8 will be like Vista in that it's laying the groundwork for future things. Windows 7 is ONLY as awesome as it is because of the foundation Vista laid. Same with OSX - I used OSX 10.0 and 10.1, and boy were they awful. As such, well, we'll see how W9 is. And, lets not forget some of Vista's early troubles were the result of 3rd party drivers -W7 uses the same driver base and works great, but only because companies are writing them correctly now.

WinME, on the other hand, was pretty much a filler release in-between Win98se and XP. It really did nothing, and was likely known to be a dead-end within Microsoft. It did nothing for Windows like Vista did - the hate it earned was all deserved, not growing pains.

Yazoo said,
IMHO Windows 8 is Windows ME or VISTA. Majority of users (casual and hardcore) will not upgrade to it. Just seeing a trend with MS OS's of the past. Just saying.

Anecdotal trend at that. WinME was just, wow, I really don't know what it was supposed to be. Lasted all of 15 minutes on my machine before I reverted back. Vista at launch was blah but matured nicely. Win8 is so vastly different that who knows what might happen?

There are some facts though that cannot be ignored. It's fast and boots quickly. It runs quite smoothly on a cheapo laptop. I can get around just fine with mouse/key since I have no touch devices yet. So the WinME comparison doesn't hold up. The biggest thing is going to be convincing people to make the switch.

Is the OS good? Yes. Are people ready? Not sure. One thing is for sure, it doesn't matter whether they are ready because they'll eventually have to change. Win7 has a lot of life left in it but Win8 is the future of the OS.

I think devs are worried, not so much about Windows 8, but for the future of Windows and the foundation Windows 8 introduces.

The Desktop/Win32 is already (well, almost) a second class citizen in Windows 8 (once the App Store fills out, there is potential that some users will never enter the Desktop again).

They'll go further down that road for Windows 9 and eventually Windows will be Metro where all software (and updated) will need to be delivered though the App Store.

That is not a model that will play well with indie game developers.

virtorio said,
I think devs are worried, not so much about Windows 8, but for the future of Windows and the foundation Windows 8 introduces.

The Desktop/Win32 is already (well, almost) a second class citizen in Windows 8 (once the App Store fills out, there is potential that some users will never enter the Desktop again).

They'll go further down that road for Windows 9 and eventually Windows will be Metro where all software (and updated) will need to be delivered though the App Store.

That is not a model that will play well with indie game developers.


Developers have been screwing windows users over for too many years now. So, this is what they get.

FalseAgent said,

Developers have been screwing windows users over for too many years now. So, this is what they get.
How have developers (indie developers in particular) been "screwing" over Windows users exactly?

virtorio said,
How have developers (indie developers in particular) been "screwing" over Windows users exactly?

well, Indie developers haven't been screwing users over. It's the big ones that have been screwing around with windows, and let's face it - the big names matter more.

FalseAgent said,

well, Indie developers haven't been screwing users over. It's the big ones that have been screwing around with windows, and let's face it - the big names matter more.

I'd argue that OEMs, in a "race to the bottom," have done the most damage. To get to the lowest price, he use crappy parts, cut back on support, and bloat a computer up with junk. Compare the average OEM machine to a clean install! And parts makers, with their deliberately confusing names, don't help.

Sadly, the average user only understands, and focuses on, price. This is why its such a shame to the industry that Microsoft made its Signature PCs - why weren't companies doing this before? Just charge a little more (about as much as the bloatware would've earned), and sell a clean machine?

I'd like to toss this out, doesn't MS allow apps in the windows store that support in-app purchasing? I get that inde devs "might" be hurt by this because they have to share 30% early on (which drops to 20% after the first $25k of sales iirc) but on the flip side I don't remember MS saying they're blocking the ability for the same indie developer to say, sell dlc/updates through the app itself without MS getting a cut.

We know WP8 is going to get this support since MS officially stated it, so then Windows 8 should, by extension, be the same. All it would take a developer to do is either sell the original game/app free, thus nothing for MS to take, and then through the app sell updates for some money. I bet you this is what Amazon will do with it's apps like kindle and so on, so why couldn't everyone?

Hell why couldn't steam for that matter? Maybe then Gabe will calm down instead of freaking out of MS adding it's own store and Xbox Live integration. A free steam metro client could go up and then you could buy content through it.

I should also add, if there are that many people that play that crap of a game, that is just sad. They have to have the brain the size of a pea, or are all 5 year olds.

jd100 said,
I should also add, if there are that many people that play that crap of a game, that is just sad. They have to have the brain the size of a pea, or are all 5 year olds.
*TROLL DETECTED*

"10,000 to 13,000 copies per day."
--------------------

I also call that complete BS. Common sense tells you that. Anyone can just make up some lie and post it.

Minecraft has to be the lamest game in history. Pong is even more exciting than Minecraft. I don't understand what people see in it. It definitely wins the award for crappiest graphics.

i honestly don't understand these complaints. they could sell it however they want to, just like in windows 7. the only difference is the changed login screen.

this is such a crock of ****. windows 8 brings millions of eyes to your software,how is this bad for indi developers? it is actually a dream for them. how easy is to to get your indie game out there currently on this iteration of windows? yeah,good luck with that.

these guys are just bitter that they actually now have to compete with hundreds and thousands of other developers. its no longer a free for all for the big guys. they can no longer charge $70+ for their titles. they can no longer use their own little stores.

ultimately,its the consumer who chooses what they want,and its the developers job to cater to the consumer. these losers wouldnt exist to this capacity without microsofts software and platform., so how can they act with such sense of entitlement?

go ahead,move to linux or whatever else you seem to be in love with, you wouldnt survive a week. nobody is forcing you to use this software.

If Microsoft decides to lock down Windows 8

And if my aunt had a dick she would be my uncle...

Microsoft has went out of their way to state and explain in painful levels of detail that they have no intention locking down Windows. Maybe this person should actually inform themselves instead of blindly joining misinformed speculation.

The information is out there...

Notch doesn't seem to be bashing W8, just sounding a note of warning if Microsoft makes the wrong decision later on. My problem with the other guys is they were actually bashing W8, being chicken little a little too early.

So many people are buying Macs and I would bet that at least one of these guys mentioned has one. Apple is the most locked down ecosystem there is. If they truly want more open then they should have convinced people to stick with Windows and proved to MS that there is no need to switch paradigms. MS has to respond in some way.

Guys, as much as I have disliked negative vibe going out regarding Windows 8 is without any solid arguments... all the sensational new stories and all the big names complaining... I think Notch is on to something. It starts with Windows 8. PCs are finally hitting crittical mass. Apple helped get us here in the last 5 years with their devices that cover all the basic PC activities.

Once Windows PCs hit this critical mass where *everyone* has got one, Microsoft might feel the desire a few versions down the road to lock down the platform. Of course right now, we still have control over what we put on our desktop, but if Metro becomes the place that the common consumer looks to get his software, the Desktop could fade into the background where only the Professional and utility apps play.

Something will give and I do see the opportunity for the smallest of indie developers to flop in shallower waters... as the online stores become popular. The PC becomes the new virtual retailer, and every developer is at the mercy of getting coverage, where front and center placement is pretty much the featured apps section of digital distribution. It is possible, and it does look like the industry is moving in this direction. MS is a business, and I don't blame them, but it is disturbing times. The thought of loosing control of my PC scares me.

mranderson1st said,
*snip*
Well said.

On the flip side of things, I've also heard some positive things about WinRT. One of the best things Apple did (even though few liked it at the time) was ditching compatibility with OS9. I'm really curious to see what a thoroughly modern Windows would look like, and that sort of requires abandoning Win32. Certainly, I've been using Windows for a long time, problem free, since XP. What caused issues for me? Software and drivers. Drivers are good now, thanks to Vista's groundwork, so the older APIs getting cleared away might be beneficial too. Also, most users are functional in Windows but practically illiterate, so I feel they would benefit from a locked down system (whether we like it or not).

As an enthusiast, though? Hmm... yeah, I can see trouble. I'd expect MS to make a way for businesses to roll out their own software, privately (and at enterprise rates), but don't know if that'll extend out to enthusiasts, power users, etc. To be honest, right now is probably the biggest opportunity for a non-Mac, non-Windows OS since OS/2 missed its chance before Windows 95 came out to make a splash! The question is, "can someone successfully capitalize on it?"

And make no mistake - I'm NOT talking mainstream desktops and laptops for consumers. I'm talking businesses, workstations, etc., as well as enthusiasts.

Sam not Spam said,
Well said.

On the flip side of things, I've also heard some positive things about WinRT. One of the best things Apple did (even though few liked it at the time) was ditching compatibility with OS9. I'm really curious to see what a thoroughly modern Windows would look like, and that sort of requires abandoning Win32. Certainly, I've been using Windows for a long time, problem free, since XP. What caused issues for me? Software and drivers. Drivers are good now, thanks to Vista's groundwork, so the older APIs getting cleared away might be beneficial too. Also, most users are functional in Windows but practically illiterate, so I feel they would benefit from a locked down system (whether we like it or not).

As an enthusiast, though? Hmm... yeah, I can see trouble. I'd expect MS to make a way for businesses to roll out their own software, privately (and at enterprise rates), but don't know if that'll extend out to enthusiasts, power users, etc. To be honest, right now is probably the biggest opportunity for a non-Mac, non-Windows OS since OS/2 missed its chance before Windows 95 came out to make a splash! The question is, "can someone successfully capitalize on it?"

And make no mistake - I'm NOT talking mainstream desktops and laptops for consumers. I'm talking businesses, workstations, etc., as well as enthusiasts.

OS/2 didn't miss a chance, it lost due to technical limitations, stability, and IBM not letting go of old models where they charged developers insane amounts of money.

People forget that consumers didn't want the complications of OS/2, and technical minded people understood why NT was technically superior to OS/2 and wasn't going to chose a technology that was half baked.

(OS/2 had a freaking single input queue, was filled with 16bit code and drivers and was a mess, and although it did have a nice 'object' desktop, NT was solid, secure, and was an object based OS that Microsoft is still demonstrating the benefits this offers in flexibility and features today.)


There is NOTHING in the OS world that can compete with Windows 8 technically, nor is there anything as easy for consumers. A NEW OS would have to emerge to even have a shot at taking down Windows, and that isn't something created overnight in today's level of OS complexity.

As for enterprise specifically, Windows 8 is even more advanced than the previous versions of Windows, and the combination of Server technologies, centralized management, and workstation control and features are unparalleled.

With the addition of Windows 8 enterprise controlled portable installations and remote connectivity options, there isn't anything that can compete, let alone, be a better Windows than Windows. For a OS to take over, it would not only have to catch up, but provide things Windows doesn't, and again there is NOTHING that is even close.

There are a lot of corporate customers that are considering an early transition because of features in Windows 8, including many that are seeing Metro as the perfect model to simplify and move users away from aged intranet systems.

Even the slow rollout cycle enterprises will stick to Windows 7 until Windows 9 arrives.

It really is this simple, just like why OS/2 failed...

To overtake a market weakness, there needs to be a stronger product.
To fill a void, there needs to be a product that fills that void.

Neither of these conditions currently exist. If OS X or Linux or another OS was uber awesome and superior to Windows, the market would have already shifted, and it hasn't. (And they sure as hell don't compare in fundamental OS models, user experience, and no longer even compete with regard to stability or security.)

Even the Tablet market are 'spike' and 'soft' sales that in a couple of years will be irrelevant, as every technical and financial analyst will tell you, and why Windows is predicted to take back the Tablet and even the Phone market in less than three years.

thenetavenger said,
*snip*
Well said, although whatever Windows NT's strengths where, they didn't apply to Windows 95 which was not based on NT (used to joke it was stapled onto DOS). Also, Microsoft was actively strong-arming OEMs not to consider alternatives back then (the anti-trust trial was really interesting if you can find the old coverage of it), which is why they got in trouble with the FTC. Combine that with the problems OS/2 had (real and perceived)? Yeah, there you go.

There was an opportunity to have another, viable, alternative to Windows 95 besides MacOS, in my opinion. IBM had the best chance, but failed. And, really, I don't equate superiority and acceptance. Popular only means popular, and viable only means "hey, we're making a worthwhile profit on this, and so are the folks making stuff for it." I'm sure we can all think of a viable, popular, but piece of crap SOMETHING, yeah?

I can see his point. Windows RT is locked down, and one does have to wonder if, at some point, Microsoft will retire Win32 (and thus its openness). Its the same worry that was brought up with OSX and the App Store, and again with Gatekeeper. With both official software stores, there is an approval process, after all. I think most digital distributors have their own requirements as well (Steam, Impulse, Amazon, etc).

I don't think Windows 8 will be locked down for x86/x64, but the concern will be there for Windows 9, Windows 10, etc., just like its there for OSX 10.9, 10.10, 10.11, etc.

the only thing that is locked down is WinRT windows 8 on intel is still open. and the only reason why Microsoft would lock the OS is due to Malware and Virus.. I can't count anymore how many of my friends have gone to MAC just because it does not get viruses or malware ..
this is a huge issue for MS and its all about the open part of the OS.

Gibbyhome said,
the only thing that is locked down is WinRT windows 8 on intel is still open. and the only reason why Microsoft would lock the OS is due to Malware and Virus.. I can't count anymore how many of my friends have gone to MAC just because it does not get viruses or malware ..
this is a huge issue for MS and its all about the open part of the OS.

1. Your grammar hurts my brain.
2. Contrary to your belief, Macs get viruses, and, if anything, are more susceptible because most Mac users couldn't fix a computer to save their life.
3. Microsoft hasn't, isn't planning to, and probably never will "lock down their OS."

Gibbyhome said,
the only thing that is locked down is WinRT windows 8 on intel is still open. and the only reason why Microsoft would lock the OS is due to Malware and Virus.. I can't count anymore how many of my friends have gone to MAC just because it does not get viruses or malware ..
this is a huge issue for MS and its all about the open part of the OS.
Actually, you have to remember that the market is changing, and personal computers (desktops, laptops, Windows and Macs) are viewed as having reached their peak, and will decline in the future in favor of tablets, smartphones and smart devices. Microsoft makes its money on software, not hardware. Every app sold through the app store - just like Apple's, Steam's, Amazon's, etc - will generate revenue for Microsoft. That includes free apps with advertising.

The openness of Windows has nothing to do with viruses and malware - its all about economic incentives for the bad guys to target Windows. That's why Android is targeted, but Linux isn't so nearly as much a target. OSX is getting more and more trojans because its becoming economically viable to make research and create them. Microsoft was, and is, still the biggest target if you want to make money, and that's unlikely to change anytime soon.

I strongly suspect that if Microsoft ever closes Windows, its because Apple did it with OSX first. That way there's some president. If Microsoft did it now, they'd likely get into trouble due to their position/history as a monopoly.

De.Bug said,
2. Contrary to your belief, Macs get viruses, and, if anything, are more susceptible because most Mac users couldn't fix a computer to save their life.
Neither can most PC owners, which is why professionals can charge so much for removal of viruses, repairing/troubleshooting hardware, etc. The hardcore Mac enthusiasts out there are more than capable of doing so, but they're simply outnumbered by normal users who are as computer illiterate as the average Windows user.

De.Bug said,

2. Contrary to your belief, Macs get viruses, and, if anything, are more susceptible because most Mac users couldn't fix a computer to save their life.

Very rare, and if anything, most windows users couldn't fix a computer to save their life.

Sam not Spam said,
Actually, you have to remember that the market is changing, and personal computers (desktops, laptops, Windows and Macs) are viewed as having reached their peak, and will decline in the future in favor of tablets, smartphones and smart devices.

This is outright bull****.

ahhell said,

This is outright bull****.

I said "viewed as having," not "have." Provided they don't have yet another counter-productive race to the bottom, there's money to be made on tablets and mobile devices, with greater profits than the traditional PC market. So, we'll see more devices. In the meantime, the "post-pc" hype will continue for consumers. Personally, I think there are companies with a vested interest in making it happen, but that's me.

How people not seeing this? Yes, you can still get apps via the internet but people fear this could lead to eventually only allowing apps to be installed from the app store or having to pay to get an application signed by MS to download it on an external site. Furthermore, the consumers will mainly download apps from the app store now, cannibalizing downloads and sales of apps that are not on the app store.

Adamb10 said,
How people not seeing this? Yes, you can still get apps via the internet but people fear this could lead to eventually only allowing apps to be installed from the app store or having to pay to get an application signed by MS to download it on an external site. Furthermore, the consumers will mainly download apps from the app store now, cannibalizing downloads and sales of apps that are not on the app store.

"fear this could lead to..."? So not a problem with Windows 8 then.

Perhaps you haven't been keeping up, but desktop apps can be listed in the store too and have a link to the developers own purchase/download webpage.

TCLN Ryster said,

"fear this could lead to..."? So not a problem with Windows 8 then.

Perhaps you haven't been keeping up, but desktop apps can be listed in the store too and have a link to the developers own purchase/download webpage.

Except it is. It's getting the wheels in motion. The problem is beginning in Windows 8, and could escalate further in Windows 9.

Adamb10 said,

Except it is. It's getting the wheels in motion. The problem is beginning in Windows 8, and could escalate further in Windows 9.

Truth be told, though, I'd say its actually to the benefit of the "average" computer user (which, sadly, is mostly computer illiterate). Detrimental for professionals and power users? Oh, yeah. But the average user? No, sorry, I'd actually say its pretty darn smart. When I recommend smartphones, I steer the typical user to iOS or (rarely) WP7, but powerusers? Android. Always.

Sam not Spam said,
Truth be told, though, I'd say its actually to the benefit of the "average" computer user (which, sadly, is mostly computer illiterate). Detrimental for professionals and power users? Oh, yeah. But the average user? No, sorry, I'd actually say its pretty darn smart. When I recommend smartphones, I steer the typical user to iOS or (rarely) WP7, but powerusers? Android. Always.

agreed. and professionals & power users are able to turn off the limit without complaining (unless Microsoft pulls another Start-Screen and doesn't put the option in to disable it, but I highly doubt that)

Matthew_Thepc said,

agreed. and professionals & power users are able to turn off the limit without complaining (unless Microsoft pulls another Start-Screen and doesn't put the option in to disable it, but I highly doubt that)
Paul Thurott seems to think that WindowsRT (Windows on ARM) is for consumers, whereas Windows 8 on x86/x64 will be for professionals. We'll see how things go... certainly, only professionals and enthusiasts would have any real reason to buy a Windows tablet with an i7 in it. Or, for that matter, a computer with an i7. Computing power has blown away the average consumer's needs for a while now (and its GLORIOUS).

Sam not Spam said,
Paul Thurott seems to think that WindowsRT (Windows on ARM) is for consumers, whereas Windows 8 on x86/x64 will be for professionals. We'll see how things go... certainly, only professionals and enthusiasts would have any real reason to buy a Windows tablet with an i7 in it. Or, for that matter, a computer with an i7. Computing power has blown away the average consumer's needs for a while now (and its GLORIOUS).

I'd agree with Thurott - most consumers really just need IE, Office, and other small apps like games, all of which will be available for ARM.

Matthew_Thepc said,

I'd agree with Thurott - most consumers really just need IE, Office, and other small apps like games, all of which will be available for ARM.
Don't forget Angry Birds

erm, how did he "bash windows 8"?


If Microsoft decides to lock down Windows 8

which, AFAIK, Microsoft isn't considering O.O
lol, reading over the comment he was replying to, he was just saying that one of the biggest problems facing indie game devs in the future is that companies are beginning to lock down their products more.
sry, neowin, but the title's a little off ;D

Yet another non-opinion. If he moved away from that crappy Java engine he could actually make Minecraft as a Metro app and have more visibility on thousands of Windows tablets. I suppose I'll be continuing to snub Minecraft.

GreyWolf said,
Yet another non-opinion. If he moved away from that crappy Java engine he could actually make Minecraft as a Metro app and have more visibility on thousands of Windows tablets. I suppose I'll be continuing to snub Minecraft.

I would say probably the only reason he used Java was to make it work on every platform. Also I'm not seeing how Minecraft would be good as a metro app.

De.Bug said,

I would say probably the only reason he used Java was to make it work on every platform. Also I'm not seeing how Minecraft would be good as a metro app.

I don't see how it wouldn't be - it would be full screen, but that's about all I can think of. Don't know if it would be touch friendly, but keyboard and mouse/touchpad would be okay.

But, yeah, Java would be the holdup. He'd have to port it over to WinRT to run in Metro.

GreyWolf said,
Yet another non-opinion. If he moved away from that crappy Java engine he could actually make Minecraft as a Metro app and have more visibility on thousands of Windows tablets. I suppose I'll be continuing to snub Minecraft.

lol I'll continue to snub it because it's ****ing boring and the graphics suck.

Darrian said,

lol I'll continue to snub it because it's ****ing boring and the graphics suck.

Because it's all about the graphics right?

Only boring people with NO IMAGINATION find Minecraft boring. It's a freaking sandbox game, what did you expect? To Notch personally hold your hand like in all those AAA games? Pfft.

ya everyone listen to this guy..
Windows 8 is out now so you all have to delete your Java code.
Sorry guys

And i agree Minecraft is one of those over hyped boring games
like almost all of them. PC gaming sucks
Console gaming is worse though..

You know what we need is some more Zombie Shoters
Or Sci Fy Futuristic Shooters or Future War shooters
we don't have enough of them

rpsgc said,

Because it's all about the graphics right?

Only boring people with NO IMAGINATION find Minecraft boring. It's a freaking sandbox game, what did you expect? To Notch personally hold your hand like in all those AAA games? Pfft.

Graphics are a critical element in gaming. I'm not asking for Unreal IV, just something that doesn't look like it was made in 1997. Additionally, as you said, it's a sandbox game, so I expected it to be boring. Frankly, I'm amazed that it is as popular as it is, but I guess some people are easily impressed. I don't want Notch to hold my hand, and besides, it'd be rude to ask him to let go of yours.

He didn't say he didn't like windows 8, he said he was worried microsoft could start moving away from an open platform, which would be bad for gamers... but...microsoft isnt ... so he isn't.

Spencer R said,
He didn't say he didn't like windows 8, he said he was worried microsoft could start moving away from an open platform, which would be bad for gamers... but...microsoft isnt ... so he isn't.
Well, things do change. Things changed after Gates left. Who knows what it'll be like when Ballmer leaves? And certainly, there's no guarantee his replacement will be better than him >_<

billyea said,
Bashing Windows 8, the new way to stay relevant!

notice the only comments here are like yours.

You cheerleading fanboys can't keep quiet and you ladies
keep making jabs and snotty remarks towards those of us that don't like W8.
And then when we respong to the bait we are attacked again.

grow up son

And i couldn't care less what is relevant.
i am not brain washed retarded little lemming
I create my own opinions and
don't need to stuff my nose up a crack until i fall off the ledge
..head down with my nose jammed up the next fanboys butt

and by the way Windows 8 sucks and I'M SO RELEVANT !!!!!!!!!!!111111111ONEONe

This "metrophobia" is getting out of hand. Microsoft is adding a store. Big whoop. They're not removing the ability to install third-party applications like we've always been able to. Sheesh. But hey, if they want to forgo Windows and try to make a profit on some other platform, good luck.

This coming from someone who won't allow Steam or any other retailer to sell his game.

Also it's nonsense, Windows 8 on the PC isn't locked down in any way.

TRC said,
This coming from someone who won't allow Steam or any other retailer to sell his game.

Also it's nonsense, Windows 8 on the PC isn't locked down in any way.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say about him not letting steam sell his game, but you're right about Windows 8, it isn't locked down any more than Windows 7.

De.Bug said,

I'm not sure what you're trying to say about him not letting steam sell his game, but you're right about Windows 8, it isn't locked down any more than Windows 7.

Not just Steam, you can't buy it anywhere else. Then he complains about things being locked down.

TRC said,

Not just Steam, you can't buy it anywhere else. Then he complains about things being locked down.

That's exactly his point though, he believes he should be able to sell his game the way he wants it.

To be honest I really don't see why he would want to sell his game on Steam and share his profit with Valve. His game is so well known there would be ZERO advantages for him to put it on Steam

Rudy said,
To be honest I really don't see why he would want to sell his game on Steam and share his profit with Valve. His game is so well known there would be ZERO advantages for him to put it on Steam
I strongly disagree. I heard about Minecraft a while ago, and the only reason I didn't get it is I don't like giving my payment information out to people I've never heard of. Even now, I would rather get it from a trusted distributor like Steam, Impulse, etc., than buy it from him. Also, Steam makes it trivially easy to gift games. I've bought Alan Wake, on sale, for 4 of my friends, and twice for myself (360 and just recently for Windows). And I'm ONE person. If I could get Minecraft on Steam, I'd finally get it, and I've got friends who don't have it who I'd happily gift it to.

Well known in our circles doesn't mean well known with the total possible market.

Sam not Spam said,
I strongly disagree. I heard about Minecraft a while ago, and the only reason I didn't get it is I don't like giving my payment information out to people I've never heard of. Even now, I would rather get it from a trusted distributor like Steam, Impulse, etc., than buy it from him. Also, Steam makes it trivially easy to gift games. I've bought Alan Wake, on sale, for 4 of my friends, and twice for myself (360 and just recently for Windows). And I'm ONE person. If I could get Minecraft on Steam, I'd finally get it, and I've got friends who don't have it who I'd happily gift it to.

Well known in our circles doesn't mean well known with the total possible market.

Until your information gets stolen along with another 10.000 or more individual credit card numbers. Be serious.... no service is truly secure and it's embarrassing when even the Big Guys screw the pooch in a very BIG WAY. Try using something like Paypal although that's pretty much going full circle to what I said above.

Sorry just couldn't help myself. The main idea is I prefer having more competition in the digital distribution market than simply locking it down to a single platform and that pretty much is what I think Valve, Blizzard and other developers are angry about.

Also I hope MS does a better job at filtering low quality apps from the market. I still remember the Gadget platform which was and is a complete mess.

What would be nice for Mickey to do is to be the first big cloud provider and OS builder to admit there are other solutions out there and make them inter-operable with each other. Imagine being able to connect from your Steam friends list to Origin etc.

I don't get it, nothing will change with Windows 8 unless you have a Metro app and games aren't metro apps. I can understand that with the Windows RT version, it is locked down but I don't hear indie game developers complaining about iOS...

scorpian007 said,
I don't get it, nothing will change with Windows 8 unless you have a Metro app and games aren't metro apps. I can understand that with the Windows RT version, it is locked down but I don't hear indie game developers complaining about iOS...

Windows RT and iOS have different goals, where iOS is fully touch (with Bluetooth keyboard support as an afterthought), but where RT shares the familiar Metro interface with PC's as well as having keyboards and mice - common PC gaming interfaces.

gullygod said,
Doesn't W8 still allow for regular programs -- games, CAD, PS, etc -- to still be installed?

Yep, just like every other version of windows. I'm guessing Notch hasn't used it yet and doesn't realize that nothing really changed to make installing things off the internet or other sources different.

gullygod said,
Doesn't W8 still allow for regular programs -- games, CAD, PS, etc -- to still be installed?
On x86/x64, yes. On ARM? No. Those will have to be made with WinRT

Sam not Spam said,
On x86/x64, yes. On ARM? No. Those will have to be made with WinRT

So you can't install games that wouldn't work anyway? The horror!

Deranged said,

So you can't install games that wouldn't work anyway? The horror!
Sortof. Even if it was made with WinRT, it'd still have to be bought/obtained through the store. I don't know if they'll allow side-loading of apps or not (would think so, at least for businesses). So, basically, for Metro (x86/x64/ARM), apps:

1. Have to be in WinRT.
2. Be submitted to Microsoft for approval.
3. Be published on the marketplace.

The classic desktop on the x86/x64 is the only place to run Windows XP, Vista and W7 software, assuming they're compatible (I've had one game choke already, likely due to DRM not liking W8 CP).

Sam not Spam said,
On x86/x64, yes. On ARM? No. Those will have to be made with WinRT

I thought you could install 3rd-party non-signed desktop apps on ARM if they're recompiled for ARM or written in .NET/Java/another cross-platform language?

Matthew_Thepc said,

I thought you could install 3rd-party non-signed desktop apps on ARM if they're recompiled for ARM or written in .NET/Java/another cross-platform language?
No, the only desktop app allowed that's not usually bundled with Windows is Office. Even Java apps are not allowed (even if a JVM was released...) or .NET...or anything

Rudy said,
No, the only desktop app allowed that's not usually bundled with Windows is Office. Even Java apps are not allowed (even if a JVM was released...) or .NET...or anything

interesting, I didn't know that O.O
could you post a link with more info?

Sam not Spam said,
Sortof. Even if it was made with WinRT, it'd still have to be bought/obtained through the store. I don't know if they'll allow side-loading of apps or not (would think so, at least for businesses). So, basically, for Metro (x86/x64/ARM), apps:

1. Have to be in WinRT.
2. Be submitted to Microsoft for approval.
3. Be published on the marketplace.

The classic desktop on the x86/x64 is the only place to run Windows XP, Vista and W7 software, assuming they're compatible (I've had one game choke already, likely due to DRM not liking W8 CP).


If it's true about the store it'd be a problem, but I suspect it isn't the whole story. It may be they simply don't have the functionality ready to install apps outside of the store, I don't know but I can't imagine it staying that way in the future (if it's accurate. Early days...)

At any rate, my earlier point was that current programs (much like Minecraft) are not ARM compatible so there's no point worrying about whether or not they'll install in the first place.

Deranged said,

If it's true about the store it'd be a problem, but I suspect it isn't the whole story. It may be they simply don't have the functionality ready to install apps outside of the store, I don't know but I can't imagine it staying that way in the future (if it's accurate. Early days...)

At any rate, my earlier point was that current programs (much like Minecraft) are not ARM compatible so there's no point worrying about whether or not they'll install in the first place.

Ah, gotcha. I misunderstood.

That said, I wonder how many consumers will buy Windows ARM tablets, and wonder why they can't just download stuff like they used to. My brother's girlfriend works at retail, and geez, the horror stories.

gullygod said,
Doesn't W8 still allow for regular programs -- games, CAD, PS, etc -- to still be installed?

Yep. Unless they're unsigned (which most indie software is), then the lovely Windows SmartScreen blocks you from running it, until you find the hidden allow button or disable it.

So, where's the beef? He can still publish in the app store. Why isn't anyone saying iOS is bad for indie developers?

siah1214 said,
So, where's the beef? He can still publish in the app store. Why isn't anyone saying iOS is bad for indie developers?

As far as I know, it isn't bad for indie developers, but feel free to enlighten me.

siah1214 said,
So, where's the beef? He can still publish in the app store. Why isn't anyone saying iOS is bad for indie developers?

Notch worries the app store will turn into an Xbox live model, where distributing updates to apps costs thousands for developers. MS doesnt deliver them for free.

Adamb10 said,

Notch worries the app store will turn into an Xbox live model, where distributing updates to apps costs thousands for developers. MS doesnt deliver them for free.

I don't think that's the case, unlike the Xbox and Xbox Live on the console as far as the PC goes and the Windows store I don't think they're going to use the same model and charge you for patches like the console venders do. I'm sure there's a EULA or something out there someone could find to clarify this already.

GP007 said,

I don't think that's the case, unlike the Xbox and Xbox Live on the console as far as the PC goes and the Windows store I don't think they're going to use the same model and charge you for patches like the console venders do. I'm sure there's a EULA or something out there someone could find to clarify this already.

I wouldn't be so sure. They used to charge customers to play on GfWL before they realised how stupid an idea it was. But with a system that is better controlled from the get-go, they may try the console-esque approach again.

I don't think anyone here is in a position to truly guess what Microsoft has up its sleeve.

what said,

I wouldn't be so sure. They used to charge customers to play on GfWL before they realised how stupid an idea it was. But with a system that is better controlled from the get-go, they may try the console-esque approach again.

I don't think anyone here is in a position to truly guess what Microsoft has up its sleeve.

So all everyone is doing is just guessing and making assumptions. I look at how they handle it on the phone, because really it's the same model that WP has but on the phone. They don't charge for updates to apps and games there, at least not that I have ever heard of. Until shown otherwise I expect this to hold true for Windows 8 as well.

Adamb10 said,

Notch worries the app store will turn into an Xbox live model, where distributing updates to apps costs thousands for developers. MS doesnt deliver them for free.

And it is not a bad idea, at least in theory. Lately delivering betas for a full price, then tons of fixes that don't fix anything, has become trendy. Required to update each time I start the game, even though, for example, I've no bandwidth available, I just want to play... and not get, for example, my saves eaten by a Monster of Shoddy Coding Lake. It's a bloody annoyance! Sadly, unlike everything else, software never has any law-enforcable warranties whatsoever - it's all my fault.

Adamb10 said,

Notch worries the app store will turn into an Xbox live model, where distributing updates to apps costs thousands for developers. MS doesnt deliver them for free.

I don't know if that's such a bad idea considering the control prevents updates from being half-baked and crashing the consoles. Let's face it, PCs crash because of bad driver, programming, and viruses. It will also help insure consistency with things like scrolling, etc.

MorganX said,
I don't know if that's such a bad idea considering the control prevents updates from being half-baked and crashing the consoles. Let's face it, PCs crash because of bad driver, programming, and viruses. It will also help insure consistency with things like scrolling, etc.

This is a valid point, I think MS (Sony charges as well) do this so the console games don't turn into a patch frenzy like the PC has become. Just take some more time to test it out before releasing the game and or make sure that first patch that, iirc MS gives you for free, doesn't break something else that then requires another patch.

I also hate when I sit down and fire up my 360 to play a game only to get hit with a update window which I can't ignore because the game won't run until I update it anyways.

And how does windows 8 change the way their game is sold? Fact is it doesn't. Last time I checked, Minecraft wasn't a metro app.

TCLN Ryster said,
And how does windows 8 change the way their game is sold? Fact is it doesn't. Last time I checked, Minecraft wasn't a metro app.

I think his point is that users on Windows RT can only have Metro style apps. They won't be able to make indie games running on WinRT because of the Windows Store's locked-down nature. But I don't understand that argument, because there's nothing stopping them from making an account on the Windows Store to publish their games. Is it to expensive to get a company account? Does Notch want Microsoft to allow special accounts for indie and open source developers?

Meph said,

I think his point is that users on Windows RT can only have Metro style apps. They won't be able to make indie games running on WinRT because of the Windows Store's locked-down nature. But I don't understand that argument, because there's nothing stopping them from making an account on the Windows Store to publish their games. Is it to expensive to get a company account? Does Notch want Microsoft to allow special accounts for indie and open source developers?

So? Users on iOS can only have iOS apps. Why doesn't he whine about that, too?

Drossel said,

So? Users on iOS can only have iOS apps. Why doesn't he whine about that, too?


Because it's not a PC, and Apple don't want it to be used like a PC in tablet-laptop hybrids. But you can do that with Windows RT.

Meph said,

Because it's not a PC, and Apple don't want it to be used like a PC in tablet-laptop hybrids. But you can do that with Windows RT.

Windows RT isn compatible with normal PC applications.

Meph said,

Because it's not a PC, and Apple don't want it to be used like a PC in tablet-laptop hybrids. But you can do that with Windows RT.

Neither are windows RT tablets... What's your point?

Besides, they can participate on metro if they want. Nothing is stopping them. They just have to accept that Microsoft will take a cut, just as on the iPad. Of course though they get free hosting, update mechanism and promotion for that fee.

Drossel said,
So? Users on iOS can only have iOS apps. Why doesn't he whine about that, too?

cause iOS is fashion-able....

Deviate_X said,

Windows RT isn compatible with normal PC applications.


I never said it was. But what I mean is that Windows RT tablets can be used like PCs (just without desktop apps and other legacy stuff). Windows RT supports mice and keyboards and any probably even Xbox controllers. When you add into the equation things like DirectX, WinRT is (I assume) a much better platform for games developers than the platform on iOS.

Dot Matrix said,
So, where's the beef? Windows still allows Internet apps to install.
Notch is the guy who said "you can pirate my game, I don't care". I guess he just want to crack all Metro apps from the store