Opera: ‘Flash makes little sense for video', ARM joins debate

It looks like everyone wants a say in the ongoing Flash vs HTML5 wars that Steve Jobs recently ignited. In an interview with TechRader on Thursday, Opera product analyst Phillip Grønvold stated that Flash as a video delivery service “makes very little sense” and that they are looking towards open web standards for the future. 

While Grønvold made it clear that presently Flash is a necessity to view today’s internet content, he reiterated Opera’s support for open web standards—something that Flash is not. His claim that Flash video “makes little sense" hinged on its high resource usage and negative effects on battery life. 

Select quotes from the interview:

"Today's internet content is dependant on Flash," said Grønvold. "If you remove Flash you do not have today's internet. But at Opera we say that the future of the web is open web standards and Flash is not an open web standards technology."

"Flash does have its purposes and will have its purposes, the same as [Microsoft's] Silverlight and others, especially for dynamic content. But flash as a video container makes very little sense for CPU, WiFi battery usage etcetera – you can cook an egg on [devices] once you start running Flash on them and there's a reason for that.”

Mobile chip company ARM also joined in on the action on Thursday by faulting Adobe for not delivering on Flash for mobile devices. ARM and Adobe originally signed a pact in 2008 to deliver Flash Player and Adobe AIR for mobile devices. Two years later, Flash and AIR are still not on the majority of mobile devices that ARM powers (though Android should be getting a finalized release this June). 

"We thought [smartbooks] would be launched by now, but they're not," Drew told ZDNet UK on Tuesday. "I think one reason is to do with software maturity. We've seen things like Adobe slip — we'd originally scheduled for something like 2009."

"Our target is mostly internet machines — it becomes sort of a requirement that they run the internet," Drew said. "[The delay in optimising] Flash has stalled it”.

Image credit flickr

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Not going to lie. If Flash is the most dominate, despite, and I mean despite with an everlasting trail of understanding, despite Flash conforming to a standard, people who don't even know that the Web has standards knows exactly what Flash is, Flash has prerogatives to be understood by all parties as the most common rich web content. A simple notion that lies between being ridiculed simply because the world's most ubiquitous rich-media technology isn't in some document, and being mentioned in a web standard can't be a serious indecision. "I don't like flash cause it's not in the paper here, regardless of every single entity applicable as a candidate to tell me otherwise" I truly feel as a logical course of action to get the flash software specification, append it to current web standard, print, and slap the crap out of that fool.

DaveGreen said,
Opera makes little sense for browsing... :-)

In what way? Apparently more than 100 million people think it does!

PreKe said,

In what way? Apparently more than 100 million people think it does!

Numbers do not always prove to something being good. More than 100 million people believe in a invisible dude who floats in the sky with other dead dudes who worship him.... Also, I'm sure there is just as many who believe in the radical islamic views as well, but does not mean they are right or good..... Numbers can sometimes work, other times they can help show the stupidity in mass amounts of people.
Not saying people who use Opera are stupid at all, to each their own. But the statements Opera has made lately, they hold little water.

shakey said,
Numbers do not always prove to something being good.

Of course. That wasn't my point. I was just throwing some facts at yet another FUDder.

Not saying people who use Opera are stupid at all, to each their own. But the statements Opera has made lately, they hold little water.

Really? Such as?

PreKe said,

Of course. That wasn't my point. I was just throwing some facts at yet another FUDder.


Really? Such as?

Really? You need everyone to tell you waht they have been saying? How about complaining to the EU that they were being held back in the browser market because Microsoft was not offering other alternatives on their OS for browsers...... Now that there is a ballot, Opera has budged like 2%, not worth the amount of trouble it put Microsoft in, and totally a moot argument to start off with.

shakey said,
How about complaining to the EU that they were being held back in the browser market because Microsoft was not offering other alternatives on their OS for browsers

That's not "lately". The complaint was filed in 2007.

Also, you are dishonestly misrepresenting the nature of the complaint. Microsoft was holding back the whole market with their illegal methods. The EC found that they were guilty of using such illegal methods.

Not only that, but Google and Mozilla joined the antitrust complaint. Why are you not whining about them? Especially considering Google's other antitrust complaints against Microsoft!

Now that there is a ballot, Opera has budged like 2%, not worth the amount of trouble it put Microsoft in, and totally a moot argument to start off with.

Actually, the ballot screen was Microsoft's own idea. And the long-term effects of the ballot screen have yet to be observed. Opera reported a massive increase in downloads because of the download screen. At the very least, more people are made aware that there are alternatives.

PreKe said,

That's not "lately". The complaint was filed in 2007.

Also, you are dishonestly misrepresenting the nature of the complaint. Microsoft was holding back the whole market with their illegal methods. The EC found that they were guilty of using such illegal methods.

Not only that, but Google and Mozilla joined the antitrust complaint. Why are you not whining about them? Especially considering Google's other antitrust complaints against Microsoft!


Actually, the ballot screen was Microsoft's own idea. And the long-term effects of the ballot screen have yet to be observed. Opera reported a massive increase in downloads because of the download screen. At the very least, more people are made aware that there are alternatives.

Illegal method of what? Just as you ask us to provide you with the answers, I'd like for you to provide me with what they were doing illegal in their own OS.

Google hasn't come out and said, Screw flash. They know what the internet needs, and its more than just html5, silverlight, or whatever.

The ballot screen was Microsofts "forced" idea. If they did not provide other browsers, they would have been subjected to even more BS.

shakey said,
Illegal method of what? Just as you ask us to provide you with the answers, I'd like for you to provide me with what they were doing illegal in their own OS.

If you want the specific details of the case, look it up. Microsoft broke the law by abusing its monopoly in one market to undermine competition in a different market.

Google hasn't come out and said, Screw flash. They know what the internet needs, and its more than just html5, silverlight, or whatever.

Actually, Google has indeed come out and said a lot of things about what's right for the internet. But I guess it's OK when Google does it, eh?

The ballot screen was Microsofts "forced" idea. If they did not provide other browsers, they would have been subjected to even more BS.

The fact is that Microsoft broke the law, were busted, and suggested the ballot screen to appease the EC. Saying that it was "forced" is like saying that a bank robber is "forced" to sit behind bars. Well, duh. He broke the law, remember?

The only BS here is from hypocritical MS apologists who didn't even bother to educate themselves about the basic facts of the case before spouting nonsense.

PreKe said,

If you want the specific details of the case, look it up. Microsoft broke the law by abusing its monopoly in one market to undermine competition in a different market.


Actually, Google has indeed come out and said a lot of things about what's right for the internet. But I guess it's OK when Google does it, eh?


The fact is that Microsoft broke the law, were busted, and suggested the ballot screen to appease the EC. Saying that it was "forced" is like saying that a bank robber is "forced" to sit behind bars. Well, duh. He broke the law, remember?

The only BS here is from hypocritical MS apologists who didn't even bother to educate themselves about the basic facts of the case before spouting nonsense.


NO NO preke, just as you want people to provide you with answers, I want the same, No hypocrisy should be coming from you, unless you want us to not listen to you anymore. So either abide by your rules, or please stop talking.

"PreKe - 1 hour ago

thornz0 said,
Lol, what a horrible troll. You expect him to prove examples but then pull numbers out without any evidence or reference.

Is it my fault that you are lacking in knowledge of these numbers? No.

Is it my fault that the other guy couldn't list any specific examples? No."

*******************************************

Oh yeah, also, show me these talks that Google has been saying about flash as well, since you say they have been doing it. I want proof to your claims.


Edited by shakey, May 6 2010, 8:09pm :

shakey said,
NO NO preke, just as you want people to provide you with answers, I want the same, No hypocrisy should be coming from you, unless you want us to not listen to you anymore. So either abide by your rules, or please stop talking.

So you are saying that you are completely ignorant of the details of the EU antitrust case? If so, why are you making all these claims about it? Busted.

Oh yeah, also, show me these talks that Google has been saying about flash as well, since you say they have been doing it. I want proof to your claims.

I didn't say anything about Flash. I made a general statement. Are you saying that you are unaware of all the things Google has been saying about what's good for the web?

Nice attempt at changing the topic.

PreKe said,

So you are saying that you are completely ignorant of the details of the EU antitrust case? If so, why are you making all these claims about it? Busted.


I didn't say anything about Flash. I made a general statement. Are you saying that you are unaware of all the things Google has been saying about what's good for the web?

Nice attempt at changing the topic.

*burns bridge to keep the troll from going any further****** Done with debate since apparently preke doesn't have to prove what he says, and those who doubt him are just going to be called uneducated/ignorant when asking for such proof....

shakey said,
*burns bridge to keep the troll from going any further****** Done with debate since apparently preke doesn't have to prove what he says, and those who doubt him are just going to be called uneducated/ignorant when asking for such proof....

It is clear by now that you made false statements about the EU antitrust case, and tried but failed to defend the whiners who keep derailing any discussion related to opera.

The fact is that if you actually had any knowledge of the antitrust case, you wouldn't be asking questions about it. But you don't. And yet you make all these claims about it. Again: Busted.

zagor said,
what's Opera's "open source" alternative for delivering premium drm- protected video content?

It's not about open source, it's about open standards.

I could careless what runs the video, but Flash is the best damn interface and animation delivery system. I see stuff like Wired Magazines future digital magazine system demoed and get giddy

thornz0 said,
I could careless what runs the video, but Flash is the best damn interface and animation delivery system. I see stuff like Wired Magazines future digital magazine system demoed and get giddy

I think Adobe would make one of the best tools to create HTML5 interfaces and animations if they use their Flash Professional software. The same goes to Microsoft with Expression Studio.

Is this from the same company that thought making Microsoft include other browsers would push them above the percent they have been at? rubbish comments from a rubbish browser company

shakey said,
Is this from the same company that thought making Microsoft include other browsers would push them above the percent they have been at? rubbish comments from a rubbish browser company

Yup. They're kind of daft in that they don't realize people prefer two choices in all things. We're a very either-or minded species. Third choices (and beyond) have always grabbed minority attention. People prefer a simple world where, for example, they either vote conservative or liberal, buy a Mac or a PC, even drive 'foreign' or 'domestic' cars (a vast majority of people generalize brands entirely based on a here-or-there classification). When it comes to web browsers, on the Windows platform, we have IE and Firefox. A third choice just doesn't jive. Chrome has done well, but it will either stay permanently below 10% share or completely swap places with Firefox. Opera? Not yours.


/fun how our either-or classifications also tend to stick together--liberal Mac-using foreign car owners, for example, make up a sort of stereotype

Edited by Joshie, May 6 2010, 6:18pm :

shakey said,
Is this from the same company that thought making Microsoft include other browsers would push them above the percent they have been at?

First of all, the ballot screen was Microsoft's idea, but hey, ignorance never hurt anyone did it?

Secondly, Opera's global market share is 3-5%, and 5-10% in Europe.

rubbish comments from a rubbish browser company

Really? What's wrong with what he's saying?

Joshie said,
Yup. They're kind of daft in that they don't realize people prefer two choices in all things. We're a very either-or minded species. Third choices (and beyond) have always grabbed minority attention.

Good for you. Now whine at Microsoft for suggesting the ballot screen in the first place, please.

Opera?

Currently at more than 100 million users, and the #1 mobile browser. Not bad for a company without an online ad monopoly to promote the browser.

shakey said,
Is this from the same company that thought making Microsoft include other browsers would push them above the percent they have been at? rubbish comments from a rubbish browser company

It is difficult to give an organization any creditibility when they must give the EU a sob story to gain any sort of marketshare while their competitors achieve much better results by relying on innovation.

PreKe said,

Good for you. Now whine at Microsoft for suggesting the ballot screen in the first place, please.


Currently at more than 100 million users, and the #1 mobile browser. Not bad for a company without an online ad monopoly to promote the browser.

Most people who use Opera on their mobile phones are people who don't have smart phones and need a better browser than the crappy one sprint or whatever offers as default. If you have a Iphone or Driod, you most likely have something better or same as to what Opera is offering. Trust me, when more mobile browsers hit the market, like the new FF one, Opera will be crying even more.

C_Guy said,
It is difficult to give an organization any creditibility when they must give the EU a sob story to gain any sort of marketshare while their competitors achieve much better results by relying on innovation.

Actually, competitors achieve their results by relying on either OS monopolies (IE) or advertising monopolies (Firefox, Chrome).

Also, how do you explain the fact that both Mozilla and Google fully supported and actually joined the EU antitrust case?

And how do you explain the fact that Google has filed antitrust complaints against Microsoft?

And how do you explain the fact that Microsoft has filed antitrust complaints against Google?

shakey said,
Most people who use Opera on their mobile phones are people who don't have smart phones and need a better browser than the crappy one sprint or whatever offers as default. If you have a Iphone or Driod, you most likely have something better or same as to what Opera is offering. Trust me, when more mobile browsers hit the market, like the new FF one, Opera will be crying even more.

Yeah, you FUDders have been saying that for years: "Opera will die soon!"

And yet they keep growing and growing and growing...

Firefox was released for mobile phones, and what happened? Exactly nothing. Opera's mobile dominance only grew.

Oops!

PreKe said,

Actually, competitors achieve their results by relying on either OS monopolies (IE) or advertising monopolies (Firefox, Chrome).

Also, how do you explain the fact that both Mozilla and Google fully supported and actually joined the EU antitrust case?

And how do you explain the fact that Google has filed antitrust complaints against Microsoft?

And how do you explain the fact that Microsoft has filed antitrust complaints against Google?

preke, you seem like a smart guy, who you also seem to have a very very narrow view of things?
Why did Google and Mozilla jump in, because it could only benefit them! dedede
Google and Microsoft filing antitrust complaints is just that, one business trying to overstep another, but since both are having trouble doing it the right way, they feel they have to complain to the law.
Does Microsoft really have a monopoly on the OS market, or is it that NO ONE ELSE has even put together a OS that is as good. Apple says so, but you can only use it on their system, and Linux is so widely separated by builds and users, it will never come together as a fully functional easy to use OS. I'm sure if someone spent the money, time, resources to make a OS that was open to the people, stuck to a single form, and had support, they would go with it. Sadly, you don't see many people doing that, because it is a lot of hard work to do. Others just instead, complain about the product/company, but don't really look into other ways of marketing/competing.

PreKe said,

Yeah, you FUDders have been saying that for years: "Opera will die soon!"

And yet they keep growing and growing and growing...

Firefox was released for mobile phones, and what happened? Exactly nothing. Opera's mobile dominance only grew.

Oops!

Well, to be all fair, Firefox's Mobile browser came out just a few months ago, mainly for use on just a specific brand/type of phone, and is still under development for the current smart phones. So since their browser really isn't out there, you can't say it's losing, unless you want to take some fanboy side of this......

shakey said,
Why did Google and Mozilla jump in, because it could only benefit them!

Ah, so it's BAD when Opera does something that benefits the entire market, but it's GOOD when someone jumps in to make sure they reap the benefits?

Google and Microsoft filing antitrust complaints is just that, one business trying to overstep another, but since both are having trouble doing it the right way, they feel they have to complain to the law.

Ok, so it's OK when Google and Microsoft do it, but NOT OK when Opera does it. I get it.

Does Microsoft really have a monopoly on the OS market, or is it that NO ONE ELSE has even put together a OS that is as good.

Microsoft has a monopoly regardless of your personal opinion about quality. Microsoft illegally abused that monopoly. Now they have to face the consequences.

A monopoly in itself isn't illegal. Abusing it is. Microsoft abused it. And that is a fact, whether they have the best OS or not.

PreKe said,

Ah, so it's BAD when Opera does something that benefits the entire market, but it's GOOD when someone jumps in to make sure they reap the benefits?


Ok, so it's OK when Google and Microsoft do it, but NOT OK when Opera does it. I get it.


Microsoft has a monopoly regardless of your personal opinion about quality. Microsoft illegally abused that monopoly. Now they have to face the consequences.

A monopoly in itself isn't illegal. Abusing it is. Microsoft abused it. And that is a fact, whether they have the best OS or not.

First off, never said it was good of them to do it, I was just answering the questions you posted. You can put words in sentences and said thats what I said, but luckily, people can see what I really wrote already.....
Abused? You realize that more than half of the tech industry didn't really see it that way, and its more of the uneducated about technology politico's that made the ruling... Just because someone says something and declares it so, still does not always mean so. This is the real world, there is more than white and black, there is a whole multitude of colors/possibilities.

shakey said,
First off, never said it was good of them to do it, I was just answering the questions you posted.

So why the whining about Opera, but never about Microsoft, Mozilla or Google? Hypocrisy, perhaps?

Abused? You realize that more than half of the tech industry didn't really see it that way, and its more of the uneducated about technology politico's that made the ruling...

Actually, the law makers are more knowledgeable of the law, and you need just a minimum of technical insight to know why and how Microsoft broke the law.

Just because someone says something and declares it so, still does not always mean so. This is the real world, there is more than white and black, there is a whole multitude of colors/possibilities.

The fact is that Microsoft broke the law. They were busted. And yet whiners are whining about everyone else, and not the company that actually broke the law!

Truly pathetic.

PreKe said,

So why the whining about Opera, but never about Microsoft, Mozilla or Google? Hypocrisy, perhaps?


Actually, the law makers are more knowledgeable of the law, and you need just a minimum of technical insight to know why and how Microsoft broke the law.


The fact is that Microsoft broke the law. They were busted. And yet whiners are whining about everyone else, and not the company that actually broke the law!

Truly pathetic.

Cause this is a story about Opera, did you not read it?

They are knowledgeable about laws that need to be changed, in the same way the copyright/patient rules need to be changed...... Knowledge about a law does not always lead to knowing about what such subjects being applied to the law, and how the real world goes working on it.

You seem to be whining now about how others are tired of other companies whining. Its a vicious cycle of whining. Companies can do it, and thats ok for you, If we do it, its not ok for you....

shakey said,
Cause this is a story about Opera, did you not read it?

No, this is a story about what Opera and ARM are saying about Flash, not about antitrust cases. And yet the antitrust trolls are once again derailing the discussion.

They are knowledgeable about laws that need to be changed, in the same way the copyright/patient rules need to be changed

Nice moving of the goalpost. Whether the law needs to be changed or not is not the topic here. The topic is whether the current law was violated, which it was.

Knowledge about a law does not always lead to knowing about what such subjects being applied to the law, and how the real world goes working on it.

Except the EC has experts from a huge number of such cases in the past.

You seem to be whining now about how others are tired of other companies whining. Its a vicious cycle of whining. Companies can do it, and thats ok for you, If we do it, its not ok for you....

I'm just responding directly to the whining and pointing out the hypocrisy. The whiners, however, are constantly derailing news stories with their whining.

PreKe said,

No, this is a story about what Opera and ARM are saying about Flash, not about antitrust cases. And yet the antitrust trolls are once again derailing the discussion.


Nice moving of the goalpost. Whether the law needs to be changed or not is not the topic here. The topic is whether the current law was violated, which it was.


Except the EC has experts from a huge number of such cases in the past.


I'm just responding directly to the whining and pointing out the hypocrisy. The whiners, however, are constantly derailing news stories with their whining.


What Law was violated? You apparently want others to show you proof of what they say, but say you will not do the same. No one even spoke about law, because this article is about flash. We said we do not listen to Opera, due to their past, and you came in full guns trying to defend them against everyone else. We said why, and you brought law and everything else into this.... so then our defense started.

I am now done trying to talk/debate with preke, as he will not even follow his own logic in it. He sits on his high horse, requires others to prove to him their points, but then will not even bother to prove his, only stating that the person he is debating against must be uneducated since they do not know.... Preke, go troll somewhere else.

shakey said,
What Law was violated?

Wait, you don't even know about EU Competition Law?

No one even spoke about law, because this article is about flash. We said we do not listen to Opera, due to their past

Exactly. You whine about things from the past even though Microsoft, Google and Mozilla are equally "guilty", yet you never derail any stories at all about those companies with your incessant whining about antitrust cases.

We said why, and you brought law and everything else into this.... so then our defense started.

No, you started out by derailing the topic: Opera and ARM on Flash.

I am now done trying to talk/debate with preke, as he will not even follow his own logic in it.

False. However, there is is a saying - "pearls before swine". And the fact that you have to ask these extremely basic questions about the antitrust case proves that you are simply not willing to educate yourself. If you were, you would have known these things already.

shakey said,

Most people who use Opera on their mobile phones are people who don't have smart phones and need a better browser than the crappy one sprint or whatever offers as default. If you have a Iphone or Driod, you most likely have something better or same as to what Opera is offering. Trust me, when more mobile browsers hit the market, like the new FF one, Opera will be crying even more.

+ 1

Kosh Naranek said,
+ 1

Why are you saying "+ 1" to something that is nothing but wishful FUD? The fact is that Opera is growing rapidly in the mobile market. Remember, they also have Opera Mobile which is a full browser.

But anti-Opera trolls don't care about facts...

Well, it is true that flash makes little sense for video, but when video became a big web thing there was little out there to make a universal video interface besides a quicktime or WMP plugin for example... flash filled the void, and it stuck, there should be a <video> tag that is universal, flash should be for interactive stuff only, leave the video to the native players that use the video tag to play in the browsers player