Report: New operating system team leaders revealed at Microsoft


Terry Myerson is the head of Microsoft's operating systems division.

Even though Microsoft announced its division and executive reorganization in July, some of the specific changes are apparently just now being put into place. A new report from AllThingsD, citing unnamed sources, claims to have the list of the new leaders inside the operating system division at Microsoft.

Terry Myerson, who some believe is a possible candidate for the CEO gig at Microsoft, is still the overall head of the OS division. AllThingsD claims that Joe Belfiore, who previously was in charge of Windows Phone development, will now lead a team that will focus on phones, tablets and PCs. The apparent idea is to show there will be little difference between the version of Windows that runs on a small smartphone and the version of the OS that runs on a tablet, notebook or desktop.

The Xbox team will have Marc Whitten as its head, while Henry Sanders will lead a OS development team. Chris Jones will lead a service team inside the division. Internet Explorer head Dean Hachamovitch will stay in that position, but the report claims it is unknown which top executive he will report to in this new structure.

The story claims that the new Microsoft OS leadership team does not include a number of other Windows executives such as testing head Grant George, services head Antoine Leblond and company veteran Jon DeVaan. In fact, the report says some people inside the division feel that this new structure was rushed and are not happy that people such as George and DeVaan are being left behind. It is unknown if they will stay at Microsoft in new roles or if they will leave the company.

The change at the top of the Windows division is the third in the past year. Julie Larson-Green was named the new leader of Windows development when Steven Sinofsky departed after the launch of Windows 8, but under the new Microsoft reorganization in July she was moved to lead the company's hardware unit.

Source: AllThingsD | Image via Microsoft

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All this Modern UI outrage...

Ironically it is coming from some of the same people here and out in other technical publications that have complained about the WIn32 API set and asked for Microsoft to replace it.

So Microsoft created a new direction/replacement for Win32, and didn't break Win32 to do it, and people are still complaining.

Maybe, someone will looking at what the real world needs to be productive; and not try to tell the world "this is the way it is going to be--like it or not." Hint: Windows-8

TsarNikky said,
Maybe, someone will looking at what the real world needs to be productive; and not try to tell the world "this is the way it is going to be--like it or not." Hint: Windows-8
TsarNikky,
Your post are always on point. Cut through the BS and straight to the point.

Never going to happen. Just look at the replies here. Constant droning about how Metro is the only solution. Nevermind that other software companies have managed to create an ecosystem that works together without trying to make the same OS/UI throughout. No matter how badly Windows 8 flops they contend its somehow the only option.

It's like if Honda said they were going to start putting handlebars in all their new cars instead of steering wheels, citing that "the market is shifting to motorcycles" as their reason.

Lord Method Man said,
Never going to happen. Just look at the replies here. Constant droning about how Metro is the only solution. Nevermind that other software companies have managed to create an ecosystem that works together without trying to make the same OS/UI throughout. No matter how badly Windows 8 flops they contend its somehow the only option.

It's like if Honda said they were going to start putting handlebars in all their new cars instead of steering wheels, citing that "the market is shifting to motorcycles" as their reason.

Well said.

Lord Method Man said,
Never going to happen. Just look at the replies here. Constant droning about how Metro is the only solution. Nevermind that other software companies have managed to create an ecosystem that works together without trying to make the same OS/UI throughout. No matter how badly Windows 8 flops they contend its somehow the only option.

It's like if Honda said they were going to start putting handlebars in all their new cars instead of steering wheels, citing that "the market is shifting to motorcycles" as their reason.

And yet you still haven't come up with a reasonable option for MS to go with other than "oh look the others managed to do it!" That's silly, Apple could do it because they had huge success with the iPhone, Android did it simply because their tablets, built on the success of the phone as well, plus things like the Nexus that sell for dirt cheap.

You're analogy to cars, which for some reason people like to keep using, is also silly. Handlebars, no, what they did do is make their trucks and SUVs more fuel efficient instead of gas guzzlers because that's what the market shifted to. Also, apples to oranges, but not that that matters I'm sure.

GP007 said,

Handlebars, no, what they did do is make their trucks and SUVs more fuel efficient instead of gas guzzlers because that's what the market shifted to. Also, apples to oranges, but not that that matters I'm sure.
Your analogy is pretty good. However, Microsoft took the fuel efficiency and ran with it. They took the guts of a Toyota Prius and put it in the body of a Ford Pinto. Windows 8 was born.

Lord Method Man said,
Never going to happen. Just look at the replies here. Constant droning about how Metro is the only solution. Nevermind that other software companies have managed to create an ecosystem that works together without trying to make the same OS/UI throughout. No matter how badly Windows 8 flops they contend its somehow the only option.

It's like if Honda said they were going to start putting handlebars in all their new cars instead of steering wheels, citing that "the market is shifting to motorcycles" as their reason.

Ridiculous analogy. Microsoft is switching to the Modern UI as it represents a better way forward than the old desktop. Years from now work habits will be different than today, which is pushing for this change. We can already see that by the way people use and interact with newer devices.

Not changing to meet future demands is stupid. It'd be the same as Ford still trying to sell the Model T in today's market.

Dot Matrix said,

Ridiculous analogy. Microsoft is switching to the Modern UI as it represents a better way forward than the old desktop. Years from now work habits will be different than today, which is pushing for this change. We can already see that by the way people use and interact with newer devices.

Not changing to meet future demands is stupid. It'd be the same as Ford still trying to sell the Model T in today's market.

I think the interface works well on my Windows Phone. It likely works pretty well on a tablet or laptop (touch screen preferable). For the desktop it's "ok" but can be tweaked and improved to better suit standard mouse/keyboard/non-touchscreen monitor set ups.

I think they'll get bits of it right with 8.1 as it seems to be trying to address a few of the big complaints.

Other broader parts of "Modern/Metro" I'm cool with. Stuff like the simplification and cleanliness (eg Outlook.com) are right up my street.

Dot Matrix said,

Ridiculous analogy. Microsoft is switching to the Modern UI as it represents a better way forward than the old desktop. Years from now work habits will be different than today, which is pushing for this change. We can already see that by the way people use and interact with newer devices.

You know Dot, you always say this. Can you just explain why you think it's a better way forward? This is a real question. Please give reasons why you believe the touch interface is better on a desktop computer. Like I've always said, Windows 8 is fine on the phone and tablet but will never be fully touch on a workstation. Ergonomics trumps "coolness".

JHBrown said,
You know Dot, you always say this. Can you just explain why you think it's a better way forward? This is a real question. Please give reasons why you believe the touch interface is better on a desktop computer. Like I've always said, Windows 8 is fine on the phone and tablet but will never be fully touch on a workstation. Ergonomics trumps "coolness".

Metro isn't just a touch interface. You guys need to get over this "touch only" thing. Nobody at all said anything like this when Media Center was introduced, so why now?

Dot Matrix said,

Metro isn't just a touch interface. You guys need to get over this "touch only" thing.

It is marketed heavily as a touch operating system though. Can you explain why you believe Metro is the way forward? Serious question bud! You have strong opinions on Microsofts direction as I have on these bad decisions. Just need some clarification on what drives your comments.

JHBrown said,
It is marketed heavily as a touch operating system though. Can you explain why you believe Metro is the way forward? Serious question bud! You have strong opinions on Microsofts direction as I have on these bad decisions. Just need some clarification on what drives your comments.

Of course it is. How else is Microsoft supposed to advertise new touch devices? Doesn't mean you still can't point and click.

It opens up Windows to new devices/directions. It unifies Microsoft's platforms. It's dynamic, alive, and built for the Internet age. It also doesn't have years worth of legacy garbage weighing it down. It has better memory management than x64 apps. It can be used with multiple input methods, and doesn't limit the user to just one.

Dot Matrix said,

Of course it is. How else is Microsoft supposed to advertise new touch devices? Doesn't mean you still can't point and click.

It opens up Windows to new devices/directions. It unifies Microsoft's platforms. It's dynamic, alive, and built for the Internet age. It also doesn't have years worth of legacy garbage weighing it down. It has better memory management than x64 apps. It can be used with multiple input methods, and doesn't limit the user to just one.

Thanks for replying. When reading your comments, I can now understand where you're coming from.

JHBrown said,
It is marketed heavily as a touch operating system though. Can you explain why you believe Metro is the way forward? Serious question bud! You have strong opinions on Microsofts direction as I have on these bad decisions. Just need some clarification on what drives your comments.

Continuing to fight for the old desktop UI is like fighting for Microsoft to only include the terminal in their OSs. In the world of mobility, the desktop is quickly becoming just as archaic as the old text only UIs of yesteryear.

Head in the sand from the usual suspects. As Brony said its a false dichotomy. Assuming that dropping the failed Metro platform = ignoring mobile is just stupid. Metro attempted to integrate mobile platforms and its failed miserably. Perhaps you should accept that fact that there are other options out there other than Metro, Metro, Metro.

Lord Method Man said,
Head in the sand from the usual suspects. As Brony said its a false dichotomy. Assuming that dropping the failed Metro platform = ignoring mobile is just stupid. Metro attempted to integrate mobile platforms and its failed miserably. Perhaps you should accept that fact that there are other options out there other than Metro, Metro, Metro.

What options are you talking about? There is no other mobile option for MS, metro is part of the Phone OS to so even if they went from the phone up to tablets like others did it's still metro. Or to be more exact it's WinRT, the framework/APIs under it all. Let's face it, Win32 has done it's job, what's the newest greatest hot Win32 Desktop app to come out in the past 4-5 years? All the development is shifting to where the market is shifting, mobile, phone/tablet/web based apps. All the desktop is seeing is updates to apps that have been made long ago and are mostly for business.

So please, enlighten us all, what other options are there for mobile for MS?

GP007 said,

What options are you talking about? There is no other mobile option for MS, metro is part of the Phone OS to so even if they went from the phone up to tablets like others did it's still metro. Or to be more exact it's WinRT, the framework/APIs under it all. Let's face it, Win32 has done it's job, what's the newest greatest hot Win32 Desktop app to come out in the past 4-5 years? All the development is shifting to where the market is shifting, mobile, phone/tablet/web based apps. All the desktop is seeing is updates to apps that have been made long ago and are mostly for business.

So please, enlighten us all, what other options are there for mobile for MS?

Microsoft needs to bring back the Start Button and Menu to Windows Mobile, and it'll be successful again.

/s

Dot Matrix said,

Microsoft needs to bring back the Start Button and Menu to Windows Mobile, and it'll be successful again.

/s

Some of the functionalities that were already implemented in WM 6.5 would be enough, at least for me.

Every time there's something about Windows or the OS group we get the "drop metro" posts. It's not going to happen, regardless of who is in charge of the division or the new CEO. Traditional desktops are a shrinking market, mobile is taking over and tablets are not just a fad that's going away next year. It's about time people acknowledged this fact. Maybe down the line there will be a business only "desktop" version of Windows again, but I'm betting what we'll get is more merging between the two. If people don't like it well, switch I suppose.

Windows 8 has been a sales flop and is hated by consumers, and Surface tablet sales make the PS Vita look successful by comparison; so I don't really see what the wisdom is in continuing to bet the farm on Metro is.

GP007 said,
Every time there's something about Windows or the OS group we get the "drop metro" posts. It's not going to happen, regardless of who is in charge of the division or the new CEO. Traditional desktops are a shrinking market, mobile is taking over and tablets are not just a fad that's going away next year. It's about time people acknowledged this fact. Maybe down the line there will be a business only "desktop" version of Windows again, but I'm betting what we'll get is more merging between the two. If people don't like it well, switch I suppose.

It is a false dichotomy. :-|

Lord Method Man said,
Windows 8 has been a sales flop and is hated by consumers, and Surface tablet sales make the PS Vita look successful by comparison; so I don't really see what the wisdom is in continuing to bet the farm on Metro is.

You really think that returning to the Kb+M only desktop, and ignoring the mobile market is a great plan of attack? I wonder how long Microsoft could keep that up before they're surpassed by others for doing nothing but clinging to outdated paradigms.

"Guys, look! We have the Start Menu back! And the File menu! You all loved the File menus, you can point and click forever in these! Guys? Hello?"

Lord Method Man said,
Windows 8 has been a sales flop and is hated by consumers, and Surface tablet sales make the PS Vita look successful by comparison; so I don't really see what the wisdom is in continuing to bet the farm on Metro is.

windows 8 has over 110 million users and it is growing very quickly. much faster than the failed chrome OS. so if google bothers to keep going with that, I see no reason why MSFT shouldn't keep going with their thing that actually sells.

Brony said,

It is a false dichotomy. :-|

Hardly, though that's your opinion. The traditional PC market has been shrinking since before Windows 7, which had no metro in it at all, mobile is taking over, smartphones, tablets are the new computing norm and not mini towers you sit under your desk at home. Thin and light laptops took over the market from desktop long ago because they were the only other option back then for people who wanted to be mobile. There's no choice for MS here, they can't ignore it and stick to a desktop only Windows OS.

neonspark said,

windows 8 has over 110 million users .

Once again, OEM sales have nothing to do with actual retail sales or number of "users" at all.

That is nothing more than a deliberate fanboy lie.

Order_66 said,

Once again, OEM sales have nothing to do with actual retail sales or number of "users" at all.

That is nothing more than a deliberate fanboy lie.

A sale is a sale is a sale.

Order_66 said,

Once again, OEM sales have nothing to do with actual retail sales or number of "users" at all.

That is nothing more than a deliberate fanboy lie.

The same metrics are used by Google, IBM, and Microsoft for Windows 7.

So when you look at Windows 7 doing about the same as Windows 8, do you still proclaim that Windows 7 only did well because of OEMs?

That logic is inconsistent.

Lord Method Man said,
They better wise up and give up on their failed Metro Desktop or else they might as well cash in their chips and leave already.

the day they give up on touch. they lost the consumer market.

neonspark said,

the day they give up on touch. they lost the consumer market.

They treat their cash paying customers like garbage by forcing touch in places that it simply doesn't belong.

Give up? No. Just tailor it to people's needs better. Option to boot to desktop or disable start screen. There are multiple options they can implement. If you trash one or the other then you eliminate yourself from that market.

Touch isn't going anywhere and neither is desktop. So it's best to somehow make them co-exist. I think they've stumbled here initially (though it works fine by me) and maybe they'll enable some of these additional options eventually. Time will tell.

weird. WP has been grossly mismanaged by Terry and Joe. Joe can't even ship anything on time and was the one that snubbed higher spec ARM chips twice only to have OEMs flame MSFT for not keeping up. Joe is also incapable of shipping a meaningful update in less than 18 months apparently. Joe is also the guy that is directly responsible for WPs lack of many features including VPN and notifications.

why do you put Joe in charge of more? he should be sent to a lake in seattle to fish and stop harming the platform.

And his boss, he's the one responsible for 3% share on WP and still hasn't gotten FB on board with instacrap. Now he's in charge of every OS?

I was hoping for both these guys to be shown the door. Name one thing they've done right other than deliver late.

They like him at Microsoft because he took the train wreck that was Windows Mobile 6.5 and turned it into Windows Phone 7 in 18 months. I'll kick and scream and stomp my feet because I don't have VPN on WP8 (and in fact, WP8 is mostly WP7.1) but the fact remains that he knows what he's doing, and he's very good at it... He just makes calls you and I disagree with

greenwizard88 said,
They like him at Microsoft because he took the train wreck that was Windows Mobile 6.5 and turned it into Windows Phone 7 in 18 months. I'll kick and scream and stomp my feet because I don't have VPN on WP8 (and in fact, WP8 is mostly WP7.1) but the fact remains that he knows what he's doing, and he's very good at it... He just makes calls you and I disagree with

do you think he's the guy? out of all the people at MSFT, he rebooted the platform already, screwing customers and developers alike with a dead end. Something MSFT isn't known for. On top of that, he essentially can't ship a phone OS. Let me be clear on this. The windows OS team beat this guy to shipping blue and they have 90%+ marketshare so they could be forgiven for not feeling the pressure. WP is on life support!.

The WP calendar is essentially stuck in 2011 when it was released, and the mail client has seen no features after Mango other than dark background. Notifications anybody? VPN aside, a smart phone platform which doesn't bother to update their mail and calendar apps (WP doesn't even support week view), doesn't earn the affection of consumers.

greenwizard88 said,
They like him at Microsoft because he took the train wreck that was Windows Mobile 6.5 and turned it into Windows Phone 7 in 18 months. I'll kick and scream and stomp my feet because I don't have VPN on WP8 (and in fact, WP8 is mostly WP7.1) but the fact remains that he knows what he's doing, and he's very good at it... He just makes calls you and I disagree with

Frankly the complete reset on windows mobile, followed by a reset on windows phone 7 has been an absolute disaster. It shifted all the early, and best customers and developers decisively away from MSFT to Android end elsewhere.

greenwizard88 said,
They like him at Microsoft because he took the train wreck that was Windows Mobile 6.5 and turned it into Windows Phone 7 in 18 months. I'll kick and scream and stomp my feet because I don't have VPN on WP8 (and in fact, WP8 is mostly WP7.1) but the fact remains that he knows what he's doing, and he's very good at it... He just makes calls you and I disagree with

But who was that derailed WM development? Who was that slowed down Photon development? Yes they might have developed WP in eighteen months but in doing it they threw the baby with the dirty water...

neonspark said,

do you think he's the guy? out of all the people at MSFT, he rebooted the platform already, screwing customers and developers alike with a dead end. Something MSFT isn't known for. On top of that, he essentially can't ship a phone OS. Let me be clear on this. The windows OS team beat this guy to shipping blue and they have 90%+ marketshare so they could be forgiven for not feeling the pressure. WP is on life support!.

The WP calendar is essentially stuck in 2011 when it was released, and the mail client has seen no features after Mango other than dark background. Notifications anybody? VPN aside, a smart phone platform which doesn't bother to update their mail and calendar apps (WP doesn't even support week view), doesn't earn the affection of consumers.

Could not agree more.... Calendar and Mail apps desperately nee an overhaul and it is long overdue.

neonspark said,
weird. WP has been grossly mismanaged by Terry and Joe. Joe can't even ship anything on time and was the one that snubbed higher spec ARM chips twice only to have OEMs flame MSFT for not keeping up. Joe is also incapable of shipping a meaningful update in less than 18 months apparently. Joe is also the guy that is directly responsible for WPs lack of many features including VPN and notifications.

why do you put Joe in charge of more? he should be sent to a lake in seattle to fish and stop harming the platform.

And his boss, he's the one responsible for 3% share on WP and still hasn't gotten FB on board with instacrap. Now he's in charge of every OS?

I was hoping for both these guys to be shown the door. Name one thing they've done right other than deliver late.

Windows Phone success aside, he built a new UI platform and new development framework in a timeframe of months.

His biggest obstacles were Sinofsky and the push back Joe got from the Windows team, especially in working with the development of WinRT and standardization of UI elements.

Joe also had a hell of a fight getting the Windows 8 team to get the WP8 kernel delivered and running as he wanted it. He got a more optimized variation of the WOA implementation than the Windows RT team got.

He also succeeded with a better WP8 experience and collection of native Apps than the Windows team did with their horrible initial release of their Modern UI versions of the same App concepts. For example, Mail on Windows 8 when it shipped was less functional and features than Mail on WP8.

Note that Windows 8.1 is adding in WP7/8 UI elements that should have been there in the beginning.

Please bring us all the features people are asking for Desktop (Notification Center, Tabs, Windowed Metro Apps)

I think if Microsoft just kept the Start Screen and Metro Apps and removed all the other Metro jigsawed parts in Windows 8.1 it would be really good. (The Metro Style In - The Tab Switcher, The WiFi Window, The Extra Metro taskbar, Maybe do search just through File Explorer). Just go back to some of the Windows 7 version of those things. Because the Metro Style in the Desktop environment is really jarring.

For more information on what people are looking for there was a post on Reddit about this: http://www.reddit.com/r/window..._see_microsoft_improve_the/


I'd really like a desktop equivalent for some of the accessory programs as well. Some are already there like the Calculator and the Photo Viewer. But I would really like a messaging desktop application, instead of, a full screen modern ui version.

Edited by Pulagatha, Sep 9 2013, 12:41pm :

hey. when all the metro stuff cant be used properly anyways and you want a cool desktop os.. why don't u stick with Windows 7? just an idea.

Pulagatha said,
Please bring us all the features people are asking for Desktop (Notification Center, Tabs, Windowed Metro Apps)

I think if Microsoft just kept the Start Screen and Metro Apps and removed all the other Metro jigsawed parts in Windows 8.1 it would be really good. (The Metro Style In - The Tab Switcher, The WiFi Window, The Extra Metro taskbar, Maybe do search just through File Explorer). Just go back to some of the Windows 7 version of those things. Because the Metro Style in the Desktop environment is really jarring.

For more information on what people are looking for there was a post on Reddit about this: http://www.reddit.com/r/window..._see_microsoft_improve_the/


I'd really like a desktop equivalent for some of the accessory programs as well. Some are already there like the Calculator and the Photo Viewer. But I would really like a messaging desktop application, instead of, a full screen modern ui version.

You can't really do that without destroying what Microsoft is doing with Metro. The desktop isn't a great UI off the desktop. It's nothing you want to use with touch or even motion input.

I disagree. The original taskbar is easily accessible. The Windows 7 WiFi Window was easily accessible as well. The Vista Scrolling Tab Switcher lends itself to swiping gestures. I think everyone gets what they want out of these simple choices. Metro Apps and the Start Screen are not tampered with and everyone who complains about the lack of attention to the desktop gets a little bit back of what they were missing as well as features everyone has been asking for. I think they should make some of the iconography a little more flat like to mend the uncanny valley between Metro and Desktop. I think a lot of professionals use the Desktop and want to see it untampered as well. I think having a choice between a Metro or a Desktop version of some of these programs smooths out the divide between desktop or mobile usage. I don't think every program should be desktop, just the rudimentary ones. Just anything that belongs in the accessory folder should have a desktop version.

I feel like the Desktop is primary.

-adrian- said,
hey. when all the metro stuff cant be used properly anyways and you want a cool desktop os.. why don't u stick with Windows 7? just an idea.

Yeah, It Does. Wow!!! ROCK ON!!!

I agree to an extent, I'm in the desktop 99% of the time. Barely use the Metro Start Screen, although I am fine with it. I do feel that some Metro apps really don't need full screen (calculator is a good example of this), but don't feel duplicating these apps in the desktop would help matters. Look how confused people get with the two versions of IE. I think we just need the ability to run Metro apps "windowed" on the Desktop.

TheShark said,
I agree to an extent, I'm in the desktop 99% of the time. Barely use the Metro Start Screen, although I am fine with it. I do feel that some Metro apps really don't need full screen (calculator is a good example of this), but don't feel duplicating these apps in the desktop would help matters. Look how confused people get with the two versions of IE. I think we just need the ability to run Metro apps "windowed" on the Desktop.

I've thought of that too. But I think in the long run it would be better to provide both. It's not a lot for just a couple of accessory programs. Constantly being switched back to Metro (for anything other than mobile services or video games) I think is just going to make people download third party programs of these standard operating system accessories. And I would rather it be provided by Microsoft than a third party developer.

Pulagatha said,
Please bring us all the features people are asking for Desktop (Notification Center, Tabs, Windowed Metro Apps)

I think if Microsoft just kept the Start Screen and Metro Apps and removed all the other Metro jigsawed parts in Windows 8.1 it would be really good. (The Metro Style In - The Tab Switcher, The WiFi Window, The Extra Metro taskbar, Maybe do search just through File Explorer). Just go back to some of the Windows 7 version of those things. Because the Metro Style in the Desktop environment is really jarring.

For more information on what people are looking for there was a post on Reddit about this: http://www.reddit.com/r/window..._see_microsoft_improve_the/


I'd really like a desktop equivalent for some of the accessory programs as well. Some are already there like the Calculator and the Photo Viewer. But I would really like a messaging desktop application, instead of, a full screen modern ui version.

Tabs?

Pulagatha said,

I've thought of that too. But I think in the long run it would be better to provide both. It's not a lot for just a couple of accessory programs. Constantly being switched back to Metro (for anything other than mobile services or video games) I think is just going to make people download third party programs of these standard operating system accessories. And I would rather it be provided by Microsoft than a third party developer.

It's not going to happen. Microsoft wants to provide an OS that can be used across multiple devices, not just PCs. Look at the old Windows 7 tablets that failed to gain traction. Hardware aside, they failed because the desktop is not fit for the new methods of input these new devices offer. It's a one sided UI, whereas the Metro/Modern UI provides all around input, not just Kb+M.

Edited by Dot Matrix, Sep 9 2013, 2:12pm :

Dot Matrix said,

It's not going to happen. Microsoft wants to provide an OS that can be used across multiple devices, not just PCs. Look at the old Windows 7 tablets that failed to gain traction. Hardware aside, they failed because the desktop is not fit for the new methods of input these new devices offer. It's a one sided UI, whereas the Metro/Modern UI provides all around input, not just Kb+M.


Well, I have used XP Tablet, Vista and W7 OSes and they got better and better using a pen
Touch is a nice addition but I would rather use a pen to input data in a spreadsheet, in OneNote, Outlook etc.
Again, Touch is a welcome, further way to interact with the device but, unless you are talking about media consumption devices, is not the Holy Grail, at least not by itself alone.

Dot Matrix said,

It's not going to happen. Microsoft wants to provide an OS that can be used across multiple devices, not just PCs. Look at the old Windows 7 tablets that failed to gain traction. Hardware aside, they failed because the desktop is not fit for the new methods of input these new devices offer. It's a one sided UI, whereas the Metro/Modern UI provides all around input, not just Kb+M.

I don't think either one of us can tell the future. But the general consensus is people feel like Metro is intruding on the Desktop. And that isn't even beneficial for Metro. And the elements of the desktop should be fitted for the Desktop theme and not the Metro theme. Trying to mix the two with certain elements here or there is going to increase the jarring jigsaw jaws-like appearance of it. If this was their idea of mixing the two, then they went about it the wrong way. Microsoft is providing a multifunctional desktop/tablet hybrid. The Windows 7 tablets failed to gain traction because they were too expensive and only partially thought out. Then Apple looked at what Microsoft did, updated it and started selling it. Apple keeps looking at what Microsoft does, then doing their updated version of it and vice versa. Keep in mind, Microsoft likes to try new things, while Apple just waits for people to tell them what to program. Which is cost effective because people only want to tell you what they want to buy. If you FORCE certain editorial decisions on people they will detract and go some where else. I think the other reason Microsoft doesn't get the sales they would like to is because the don't tweak it to perfection. It seems like they get almost done and eagerly rush it out the door. Everybody else sees what they do and accommodates their own platform.

Honestly, I'm on the opposite end of the same opinion you have. I think the desktop programs could be retro fitted for mobile devices. But it would require certain elements of the desktop interface. I don't see how you can think the desktop is a one sided system. I think it's primary because all of the professional software written for it. That it's menu options are dexterous as well as precision oriented gives it the professional quality that so many people like about it. The Surface Stylus looks like it does a very good job as a precision instrument though. The mobile system only provides the basic functions and that is all. While, the desktop provides the higher and multifunctional software. And I don't see that ever changing. The other thing I would like to point out is it seems like the processing power is always going to be more beneficial for the desktop computers than it is for the mobile computers. Professional workstations are always going to be the first protocol, while mobile devices only accommodate easier tasks.

M_Lyons10 said,

Tabs?

Tabs in the File Explorer. There is a great program called "QTTabBar." Not only does it give you tabs in File Explorer, but there is another awesome feature that lets you double click background space to go up a level in folders.

Pulagatha said,

I don't think either one of us can tell the future. But the general consensus is people feel like Metro is intruding on the Desktop. And that isn't even beneficial for Metro. And the elements of the desktop should be fitted for the Desktop theme and not the Metro theme. Trying to mix the two with certain elements here or there is going to increase the jarring jigsaw jaws-like appearance of it. If this was their idea of mixing the two, then they went about it the wrong way. Microsoft is providing a multifunctional desktop/tablet hybrid. The Windows 7 tablets failed to gain traction because they were too expensive and only partially thought out. Then Apple looked at what Microsoft did, updated it and started selling it. Apple keeps looking at what Microsoft does, then doing their updated version of it and vice versa. Keep in mind, Microsoft likes to try new things, while Apple just waits for people to tell them what to program. Which is cost effective because people only want to tell you what they want to buy. If you FORCE certain editorial decisions on people they will detract and go some where else. I think the other reason Microsoft doesn't get the sales they would like to is because the don't tweak it to perfection. It seems like they get almost done and eagerly rush it out the door. Everybody else sees what they do and accommodates their own platform.

Honestly, I'm on the opposite end of the same opinion you have. I think the desktop programs could be retro fitted for mobile devices. But it would require certain elements of the desktop interface. I don't see how you can think the desktop is a one sided system. I think it's primary because all of the professional software written for it. That it's menu options are dexterous as well as precision oriented gives it the professional quality that so many people like about it. The Surface Stylus looks like it does a very good job as a precision instrument though. The mobile system only provides the basic functions and that is all. While, the desktop provides the higher and multifunctional software. And I don't see that ever changing. The other thing I would like to point out is it seems like the processing power is always going to be more beneficial for the desktop computers than it is for the mobile computers. Professional workstations are always going to be the first protocol, while mobile devices only accommodate easier tasks.

Metro is "intruding" upon the desktop for a reason. Metro is replacing system components for easier access on both paradigms.

Personally, I like it better than the old, tiny components once there.

I think what they're saying is that if Modern UI and the WinRT API is to be the future, it needs to be able to 1.) be more flexible in how its apps runs (windowed vs full screen), and 2.) the API needs to be able to target the desktop UI. Apparently you're a big fan of Modern UI based on a lot of your comments, and it may work well for phones and other small touch screen devices, but once you get past a 10" tablet without a keyboard, it isn't an ideal interface. Shucks, I find myself using the desktop and keyboard/trackpad more and more on my Surface RT. Touch works great for some things like scrolling (even in desktop IE), but when you have systems with multiple input methods, Modern UI in its current form becomes a hindrance.

freak180 said,
wtf? When we are using a desktop...most of us could careless about touch or motion

True, but this doesn't break the Modern UI Apps either.

They work great on a desktop with a mouse and keyboard, are easier to use, are more secure, and offer a new generation of development concepts.

The either/or between the Modern UI (WinRT Apps) and desktop Apps is a misguided illusion. There is no reason that both cannot exist and give users and developers the best of both worlds, even if the person takes a religious oath to never use touch or a motion based device.

Which mean you still care. so why are you still complaining? get over it just because majority of people dislike it doesn't mean it flat out non-usable.

Raa said,
Who's that?

Not who. What. "The apparent idea is to show there will be little difference between the version of Windows that runs on a small smartphone and the version of the OS that runs on a tablet, notebook or desktop."...

Dot Matrix said,
Metro.

Yes metro, the main reason windows 8 has become the biggest os failure in the entire history of Microsoft.

Dot Matrix said,

Right... I think you need a new history book, your current one is a bit off.

Yeah, there were even worse failures than Windows 8.

Order_66 said,

Yes metro, the main reason windows 8 has become the biggest os failure in the entire history of Microsoft.

You keep posting this in virtually every thread, yet there is NO statistical facts to back up this statement.

There is not even statistical evidence that Windows 8 is doing poorly compared to XP or Windows 7, the more successful Microsoft OSes.

Even if you factor in the 'dip' in PC sales over the past year, Windows 8 is doing better despite this dip.

I know you want to believe what you are saying is true, but clapping your hands will not bring tinkerbell back to life or doom Windows 8.

I am still rooting for Elop. He is what Microsoft needs as a leader. Charismatic, likeable, intelligent and well spoken. Not only will this work in favor of MS perception wise but it will also ensure they have a great leader. People say Elop has been a failure but I consider Elop as the captain that got on the titanic and averted the failure Nokia would have had. He did a great Job at Nokia and will do a even better job at MS.

don't be ridiculous, just look at the nokia market cap ! He is a leader?? If microsoft didn't quickly acquired nokia it will soon be perish and he will be out of job my friend!

god! it's iPhone that renaissance the smartphone and redefine what a modern smartphone should be!!!!!!!!!!! WTH you trying to argue? even people who don't like apple will agree with it. Nokia have no choice but to use windows phone OS.

greenwizard88 said,
What are you smoking? He managed to re-ignite their smartphone business and keep Nokia from becoming BlackBerry.

Exactly And turn around the bleeding... It takes time for something the size of Nokia to be turned around, but imagine the amount of money they would be losing if he hadn't been there to make the choices he made...

I really don't understand some people... LOL

guru said,
you are kidding right? MS needs a visionaries not suits

neither Joe, nor Terry are either. They are the guys in charge of WP. a smash hit?

no MSFT needs somebody who can make the hard choices and actually fire those two. I'm hoping for Elop. His company was screwed by the WP team inability to ship an OS so they could support large phablets when this market was booming. it is now saturated and all due to MSFT. Even HTC wanted to make a large WP but couldn't and shipped the HTC one instead.

Master of Earth said,
god! it's iPhone that renaissance the smartphone and redefine what a modern smartphone should be!!!!!!!!!!!
Since when? iOS has not changed much since 2007, iPhone is still basically an iPod which can make calls. Slapping a new skin onto it does not make it modern, ground-breaking, revolutionary or a leader in technology. Not since the iPhone 4 has Apple been at the front lines, they are trend followers and have yet to catch up to the market as a whole. Wit the exception of the US they are hardly market leaders and see Windows Phone catch up faster every quarter.

i was just trying to point out who started the modern smartphone era and not about trend. few years later, the competitor finally catch up and people just think those classified as innovative. iPhone 4 was indeed the best phone ever with glass that feel premium. Since then the iPhone just receive a minor tweak in the design even do the iPhone 5 don't feel much different from the design perspective because it's basically the same shape unlike the 3Gs jump to 4 which has different body and material. The iPhone 5 just use different material such as the aluminium and slightly taller. i don't see that a big leap like the 4 generation. I will probably think the 6 is a major game changer if they do it right by giving it 1440p with 6 inch.

Master of Earth said,
god! it's iPhone that renaissance the smartphone and redefine what a modern smartphone should be!!!!!!!!!!! WTH you trying to argue? even people who don't like apple will agree with it. Nokia have no choice but to use windows phone OS.

The iPhone brought NO NEW technology. They brought NEW marketing to sell smartphones to baseline consumers. PERIOD.

In fact in terms of 'technology' the iPhone slowed and regressed the adoption of many technologies. The iPhone had lower resolution input screens, lack of handwriting, lack of voice, lack of 3rd party development, lack of bluetooth and other mainstream technologies that were in low end devices let alone more advanced true 'smartphones'.

The industry is still struggling to re-add many of these base technologies back to smartphones like digitizer support/handwriting, etc. (Even Bluetooth and voice commands took Apple years to add.)


The iPhone looks more like the dated smartphone concepts it copied from Windows Mobile and PocketPC from 2002 than it looks like WP7/WP8.

Edited by Mobius Enigma, Sep 9 2013, 11:23pm :

crap, i do know all of that. because the phone hardware isn't powerful enough during that year and it keep on improve it every year. i don't hate or love Apple. But i give them credit for changing how we think and use smartphone forever with a simple GUI! proximity sensor and accelerometer isn't even available in other phone that iPhone make it popular. it also include wi-fi that isn't include in other phone that once again the iPhone make it popular. Nobody care about bringing those technology to a smartphone and Apple help make it a reality! I just think that other company just doesn't meticulously take notice other technology that will eventually possible for a smartphone.

You might argue on and on Apple brought no new technology but did you even realize those feature will never exist in smartphone if Apple didn't push hard and study how to apply in iPhone? rubber band UI is also one of the innovation Apple brought to the technology how a touch screen should be scroll. If you have use the original iPhone 2007 model and compare to the pre 2007 phone then you won't be complaining what in the blue hell the iPhone lack this and that which isn't even important. what they able to achieve is bring iPhone with real web browser and it's a killer app which's what the most important stuff when the iPhone first launch. Eventually other less important feature and technology also include when 3gs and 4 came out.

Edited by Master of Earth, Sep 10 2013, 9:58am :

Sweet FA is what they'll do. Myerson was the guy who announced the Windows Phone enthusiast program that was never mentioned beyond its first announcement. I expect similar BS and inaction from him and the team under him.