Rogue antivirus software targets Mac users

Before anyone is alarmed by the headline and the screenshot shown below - don't panic! While it appears to be yet another new case in the uncharted waters of malware existing on Mac OS X, it is easily avoided by well-educated users.

This new rogue antivirus, named MAC Defender, is now technically the first "rogueware" to target the Mac platform. Its tactics are the same as those that have terrorized Windows users with pay-to-clean schemes. 

The software takes advantage of a current popular news topic by poisoning search results - in this case, the news surrounding Osama bin Laden's death. Links are offered to download the software. Then they install themselves into a user's computer, alert the user to hidden "threats," and demand they pay to remove them.

The rogue antivirus was discovered by a Mac security firm Intego who noted the application's design lends a small hint of authenticity and professionalism to the untrained eye. However, like many Mac-based malware before it, it does require users to first download the file, execute the installer, then enter an administrator password before it can install. Despite these standard security measures, this application has actually caught a few Mac users off guard.

This incident serves as a gentle reminder to exercise diligence when surfing the Internet, no matter which platform you frequent. Most users here should be intelligent enough to avoid scams like these, but for your friends and family who may not, there are a few free antivirus solutions for the Mac in case they need a safety net to fall back on.

Image Credit: Intego

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Its sad people have actually gotten hit by this, i would assume having to manually download, install, and enter admin pass, would be idiot proof for infections vs the windows way of "do it all with out user interaction "

Hell-In-A-Handbasket said,
Its sad people have actually gotten hit by this, i would assume having to manually download, install, and enter admin pass, would be idiot proof for infections vs the windows way of "do it all with out user interaction "

Yea, it is pretty sad, it can happen on any OS. If you're implying it magically happens on Windows boxes though, I hate to break it to you. Most of the current crapware on Windows happens the same way.. IE 6 disappeared a long time ago. It's either fake antivirus, fake "you're missing a codec", fake "hey run this fun FB game", random download, etc etc.. it's the clueless user bringing it in, not just appearing out of thin air.

Hell-In-A-Handbasket said,
Its sad people have actually gotten hit by this, i would assume having to manually download, install, and enter admin pass, would be idiot proof for infections vs the windows way of "do it all with out user interaction "

Because of the post above saying UAC, potentiall unsafe program, bla bla. I have seen firsthand, on customers machines that not happen. There is no warning dialogs whatsoever even though they are all active

Hell-In-A-Handbasket said,
Because of the post above saying UAC, potentiall unsafe program, bla bla. I have seen firsthand, on customers machines that not happen. There is no warning dialogs whatsoever even though they are all active

Why would it generate a UAC prompt if the program is running under standard user rights? A malware author could just as easily trick a Linux or OSX user into doing something similar just by editing files that are under user authority, not system, and guess what? No sudo required. Damage is still localized to the user account, regardless of the OS. Now if it does try and go system level, then yea, elevation will get triggered, and if they confirm/enter a password anyways.. well sorry about their luck and all.

Max Norris said,
not just appearing out of thin air.

I see diffrent on a Weekly basis, mainly comming from add hosts from rotating banner adds. I have seen this first hand. Being in the repair and viri cleaning buisness for over 15 years, certified. I seriously doubt i would have missed a UAC warning, or a unsafe program warning. Let alone both

Max Norris said,

Why would it generate a UAC prompt if the program is running under standard user rights? A malware author could just as easily trick a Linux or OSX user into doing something similar just by editing files that are under user authority, not system, and guess what? No sudo required. Damage is still localized to the user account, regardless of the OS. Now if it does try and go system level, then yea, elevation will get triggered, and if they confirm/enter a password anyways.. well sorry about their luck and all.

Wrong, majority of the infections are not hitting the local account anymore, they are placing their payload in Default user, all users, or public so it hits every account once it logs on, and is undeleteable by any admin account/safemode, have to boot another OS just to find it let alone delete it

Hell-In-A-Handbasket said,
I see diffrent on a Weekly basis, mainly comming from add hosts from rotating banner adds. I have seen this first hand. Being in the repair and viri cleaning buisness for over 15 years, certified. I seriously doubt i would have missed a UAC warning, or a unsafe program warning. Let alone both

Mm might want to check something then. The file by deafault has read only permissions for standard users, and is System owned. If something is able to change it, either somebody dicked with the file permissions, running as the default admin account with UAC disabled, or isn't running as a standard user. Out of the box, Windows 7 will warn you right off that it needs admin permissions if you try and change anything.

I actually ran into this on a users computer yesterday. The fix was easy. Close any open windows, remove it from the Login Items, reboot, and then drag it from the Applications to the Trash.

owever, like many Mac-based malware before it, it does require users to first download the file, execute the installer, then enter an administrator password before it can install.

Gotta love that!

srprimeaux said,
Growl malware notifications. Nice.

Yeah, Malware aside, they do look pretty awesomely designed Growl notifications

I wonder how well rooted these things are compared to their well-taloned Windows compatriots. Does Mac OS have anything similar to Patchguard?

Kind of irks me that they blocked out the URL in the images so we can't see where this garbage is coming from. I add pieces of crap URLs like this rogue-ware to my firewall (Astaro Security Gateway) and block it before it even hits my machines, just like the ones that infect PCs. I don't even want this stuff near my network, it's a major pain to get rid of once it's installed.

Amodin said,
Kind of irks me that they blocked out the URL in the images so we can't see where this garbage is coming from. I add pieces of crap URLs like this rogue-ware to my firewall (Astaro Security Gateway) and block it before it even hits my machines, just like the ones that infect PCs. I don't even want this stuff near my network, it's a major pain to get rid of once it's installed.

Assuming people see what I saw last night, the main URL was something (I can't remember) and the last part of it was a seemingly random string. It almost looked like an MD5 or SHA1 hash.

All I need is the domain. I'll just block the whole damn thing. I already blocked ce.ms because a lot of their free sub-domain sites are carrying this stuff. They don't do anything about it, so I just blocked them entirely too.

Amodin said,
All I need is the domain. I'll just block the whole damn thing. I already blocked ce.ms because a lot of their free sub-domain sites are carrying this stuff. They don't do anything about it, so I just blocked them entirely too.

Annoyingly enough that's the part that I don't remember

I think I was too amused by the fact that people are fooled by these things even on Windows. Since when do messages flash below folders in Windows Explorer saying that there's X number of infected files in that directory?

Believe it or not I have already seen this in the wild. I work at a College where one of the services our office provides is cleaning up student machines for virus removal and updates.

We had a girl come in on Monday with a Mac saying she had this program she had no idea where it came from. It was a fake AV for mac. I found nothing about it online untill today. WOW!

Is this really a virus? Most of the rogue AV programs on Windows do not let you run anything, will not let you get online, modify your wallpaper, set proxy settings, and all of that stuff. Is this a true virus in that sense, or just a simple application that throws popups and requests money?

More along the lines of "dupeware", not really a virus, just tricks an uninformed user into doing something stupid, basically opening the door themselves for the real malware. Clueless isn't biased by any brand of OS, can get anyone on anything if they're not paying attention.

xWhiplash said,
Is this really a virus? Most of the rogue AV programs on Windows do not let you run anything, will not let you get online, modify your wallpaper, set proxy settings, and all of that stuff. Is this a true virus in that sense, or just a simple application that throws popups and requests money?

In the case that I saw last night (a family member ran into it) you could not browse the internet until you restarted the browser. Any attempt to browse just showed you the "YOU'VE BEEN INFECTED!" image.

xWhiplash said,
Is this really a virus? Most of the rogue AV programs on Windows do not let you run anything, will not let you get online, modify your wallpaper, set proxy settings, and all of that stuff. Is this a true virus in that sense, or just a simple application that throws popups and requests money?

It appears to be the latter.

If so, I agree that this is nothing compared to what can happen on Windows - for now anyway. I had a call from a friend over some fake antivirus that prevented regedit - or most non-essential Windows apps, for that matter - from running. Bunch of ******* those people are

Denis W said,

It appears to be the latter.

If so, I agree that this is nothing compared to what can happen on Windows - for now anyway. I had a call from a friend over some fake antivirus that prevented regedit - or most non-essential Windows apps, for that matter - from running. Bunch of ******* those people are

This is EXACTLY what happens to Windows users. Malware and Viruses go in through the user's ignorance.

The number of viruses/malware that infect a Windows system without a user clicking something stupid is like 0.01% on WinXP and 0.00000001% on Windows 7.

From a technical/engineering standpoint OS X is not a secure OS, but it isn't horrible either. However, people often see BSD/MACH kernel about OS X, and think this means it is secure, or has anything to do with one of the more secure OSes like OpenBSD - and it doesn't.

Microsoft has been 'broken' to not only secure Windows, but most of the lessons Microsoft has learned over the last 20 years, are things that other OSes have been able to learn from as well, and incorporate before they were ever targeted.

Educate users, no matter what OS or even device they use. Being smart about using technology is NEVER a bad thing, but being ignorant and arrogant based on what technology you are using is a bad thing.

thenetavenger said,

This is EXACTLY what happens to Windows users. Malware and Viruses go in through the user's ignorance.

The number of viruses/malware that infect a Windows system without a user clicking something stupid is like 0.01% on WinXP and 0.00000001% on Windows 7.

From a technical/engineering standpoint OS X is not a secure OS, but it isn't horrible either. However, people often see BSD/MACH kernel about OS X, and think this means it is secure, or has anything to do with one of the more secure OSes like OpenBSD - and it doesn't.

Microsoft has been 'broken' to not only secure Windows, but most of the lessons Microsoft has learned over the last 20 years, are things that other OSes have been able to learn from as well, and incorporate before they were ever targeted.

Educate users, no matter what OS or even device they use. Being smart about using technology is NEVER a bad thing, but being ignorant and arrogant based on what technology you are using is a bad thing.

At least this one does not mess up the system so bad where it is unusable like on Windows. Is that even possible on a mac? Like the "cannot run exe" issue on windows, saying you do not have permission to open any program or service (or it is infected), can never get online unless you remove the infection, proxy settings are changed, possibly your hosts file was changed, registry is messed up (the EXE thing), might come back after you restarted after you cleaned it. All of these issues on Windows, I do not think this app does any of those. Anybody can create an app that will throw messages and request payment, so how is this considered an infection instead of a very annoying application?

xWhiplash said,

At least this one does not mess up the system so bad where it is unusable like on Windows. Is that even possible on a mac? Like the "cannot run exe" issue on windows, saying you do not have permission to open any program or service (or it is infected), can never get online unless you remove the infection, proxy settings are changed, possibly your hosts file was changed, registry is messed up (the EXE thing), might come back after you restarted after you cleaned it. All of these issues on Windows, I do not think this app does any of those. Anybody can create an app that will throw messages and request payment, so how is this considered an infection instead of a very annoying application?

The most 'invasive' and rampant malware on Windows works EXACTLY like this, as it presents itself as Anti-Virus software. (Go look up Anti-Virus 2008)

Then it demands payment for the software, and will start increasing pop up messages of increasing problems. Often these work by first stating it has detected a virus or an error in your browser, and this is the con that get the user to install it. (Just like can happen on OS X)

Even if it is just a 'user' level piece of malware, it will then ramp up to hiding user files, tell them their HD is failing, and on and on and on.

Once Malware has ANY access, even on OS X, even if it is to only the 'user' level, it can do some really nasty things, basically monkey with anything a user can without a 'root' password. And yes, even on OS X, this means it could start hiding files, popping up messages about the HD failing,

If it gets in with 'root' permissions, it can do anything to the system.

And yes it can change settings in the OS X settings location/database (aka OS X's registry)

PS...
Somehow people don't realize that OS X essentially has the exact same thing as a registry, Apple just doesn't call it this. Window's registry was a pain on Win9x based OSes, as it could be easily corrupted. This hasn't been true for over 10 years. So when people 'complain' about the 'registry' in Windows, they are showing their ignorance, as it would be like making fun of OS X for a flaw that existed in Mac OS System 8.

Yes I know all of these, I have had to clean them up many times before. They are not like these, it really messes up Windows instantly. This does not appear to mess up your OS X or do anything by throw popups and request money, where these will block pretty much anything on Windows and modify everything it can.

I know it can be done, but this one shows no sign of any of this. All it appears to be is some developer spent a couple of hours in XCode to make a OS X app that randomly gives warnings. You cannot tell me that is all these do on Windows, because they do not. Does it do anything else, I have not read or seen anything regarding it messing your settings around.

Also, the fact that you still need to download it vs (in some cases) it will randomly popup on Windows.

I do not know much about these new malware, just the tolls I need to clean them. I have never gotten a virus in Windows since I started using them.

The biggest excuse I hear from windows users, as to why they played along and ran the malware is because they thought it was their own antivirus telling they have all these viruses and to run this file.

In the case of users on the Mac they don't have any av installed.

What's really depressing about this is that, when your browser is targeted, it uses a Windows XP Windows Explorer image saying that you're infected that's in multiple languages (English and something else). The fact that people are falling for this is really depressing.

Just waiting for the flood of complaints to pour into Apple's online help desk from those foolish users who did not install any antivirus software on their Mac because Steve Jobs tells them that they don't get viruses...

PlogCF said,
Just waiting for the flood of complaints to pour into Apple's online help desk from those foolish users who did not install any antivirus software on their Mac because Steve Jobs tells them that they don't get viruses...

Not only steve jobs, but every Mac user, in fact a bunch of people on this forum have told users they are retarded for running av on the Mac.

I'm betting and sort of hoping this article spreads around the interwebs (not the virus, though). I've had too many discussions with people claiming that Mac viruses don't exist or it being literally impossible to compromise a Mac. A false sense of security may lead to free-clicking on potentially harmful links just because the OS is apparently bulletproof. Still, gotta hand it to Apple for taking advantage of major flaws in Windows during the pre-7 era, and marketing the hell out of them.

Travis Alexander Brown said,
I'm betting and sort of hoping this article spreads around the interwebs (not the virus, though). I've had too many discussions with people claiming that Mac viruses don't exist or it being literally impossible to compromise a Mac. A false sense of security may lead to free-clicking on potentially harmful links just because the OS is apparently bulletproof. Still, gotta hand it to Apple for taking advantage of major flaws in Windows during the pre-7 era, and marketing the hell out of them.

+1

Could this be a opportunity Apple are looking for to lock down OSx (like iOS locked down). To be honest though, i think locking down is the way forward to prevent these things from happening where vendors get the say to what can be installed. Whilst leaving an unlock option for "experienced" users.

thommcg said,
Easily avoided by the educated user ehhh? Yeah, good luck finding them

lol! Maybe not so true, but very funny!

giantsnyy said,
Still requires an administrator password unlike windows rogue av's...

On windows it would prompt the UAC. If you're running as an admin then you just have to click "OK" if not then you also have to type in the admin password.

Bengal34 said,

On windows it would prompt the UAC. If you're running as an admin then you just have to click "OK" if not then you also have to type in the admin password.


No, "it" wouldn't prompt UAC. "It" would do a drive by install.

DootDootMan said,

No, "it" wouldn't prompt UAC. "It" would do a drive by install.

Probably not. That would require circumventing Protected Mode (sandbox) and UAC... it's much easier to just rely on stupid users that would click "OK" to a UAC prompt, and that's how it's done now. Social engineering is so much easier.

Bengal34 said,
Maybe on XP

Actually, if it's done on the current user's account, it's possible to do without triggering a UAC prompt as it's not modifying the system or program files. It's just like messing with somebody's .bashrc on Linux for example, no superuser rights required.

DootDootMan said,

No, "it" wouldn't prompt UAC. "It" would do a drive by install.

A summing you have software on the system you havent patched.

warwagon said,

A summing you have software on the system you havent patched.

Or you have PC's that don't run anti-virus or anti-spyware because no matter how many times you've pitched it to your boss and how much they like the sound of it when you say $75,000 they look at you and tell you to f' off.

And yes... it happens on Windows 7 Pro machines too without asking UAC and on a domain. I can't do Windows updates on these until I know these updates won't break applications, etc.

Edited by giantsnyy, May 3 2011, 11:10pm :

giantsnyy said,
Still requires an administrator password unlike windows rogue av's...

Ok, just to summarize this OP and following responses.

1) On XP it could install without a password IF THE USER IS RUNNING AS AN ADMINISTRATOR. It still would prompt that that EXE is possibly unsafe, as it originated outside the system.

2) On Win7/Vista it could install without a password IF IT IS NOT ACCESSING anything beyond user data, that would require a UAC Prompt. Again, being a foreign EXE, still would get an unsafe prompt.

3) Both (1) and (2) are ALSO true of OSX, Linux, FreeBSD, etc etc etc...

For example regarding #1 - If you are running as Root on Linux, no prompt.

If this was 5+ years ago, where for compatibility Microsoft LET USERs run as Administrators on XP, which is almost 'root' on Windows NT, XP would not have been the security nightmare it was. Just like NT 3.x, NT 4, Win2k, IT professionals NEVER would have set it up leaving a user running under an administrator account, which is why they seemed more secure in retrospect.

Trying to make this case seem any different for OS X or for Windows or for Linux is freaking INSANE!

In the end, social engineering is how 99.9% of malware and viruses are spread, are far easier than circumventing the inherent security of ANY OS, and effect all OSes today.

giantsnyy said,

Or you have PC's that don't run anti-virus or anti-spyware because no matter how many times you've pitched it to your boss and how much they like the sound of it when you say $75,000 they look at you and tell you to f' off.

And yes... it happens on Windows 7 Pro machines too without asking UAC and on a domain. I can't do Windows updates on these until I know these updates won't break applications, etc.

If you have control of your user policies, localized virus software should NOT be needed and would be a waste of resources.

I would say that you need to do research and educate yourself on what tools and mechanisms you ALREADY have available.

1) Realtime Spyware software is included in Windows7
2) AntiVirus software runs from Micrrosoft during the Tuesday update patch cycle.
3) Active Directory group/user policies should have the user 'locked' down
4) AD GPs should only allow users to visit a 'safe list' of internet sites. (Stick with IE8 or IE9 to centrally administer this, and they are more secure being in protected mode.)

...and the big problem:
5) Users should NOT be running as ADMINISTRATORS and relying on UAC for protection. This is why WinXP was such a mess, as Microsoft didn't discourage this for 'HOME' users, but in the corporate/IT world, this should never have been happening even with XP, and especially should not be a mistake system administrators are making today with Windows 7.

So I am left thinking you are either trolling or need to educate yourself on what mechanisms and tools you have available to you. Running a realtime 'Anti-Virus' sotware is overkill in a corporate environment if you have your policies and set and your users secured properly.

Just the fact that you specifically mention that you need to purchase 'Spyware' software, which is included in Windows 7, makes me question how serious your post is, or how serious you are doing your job.

PS If you do want more Anti-Virus scanning, make a server script fetch the 'Malicious Software Removal Tool' from Microsoft, it is a runtime version of MSE for scanning a system, and then schedule the workstations to run this at any interval you want.

thenetavenger said,

Just the fact that you specifically mention that you need to purchase 'Spyware' software, which is included in Windows 7, makes me question how serious your post is, or how serious you are doing your job.
.

Out of the 1000+ machines I handle, maybe 25 are Windows 7 Pro. The rest are XP Pro. Also, how am I expected to take my job seriously or do my job well when there are two people to support a crew of over 1,500 people with ~1000 computers? I don't have time to sit down and create a group policy when the other IT manager doesn't want to spend the time with me, and doesn't like the policies I've set forth. I can't spend 3 hours setting policies per location because each one would require a different set. I also can't spend that time because most of the time I'm taking care of broken printers, aging equipment breaking, or "my e-mail doesn't work", and "I can't access the internet because my explorer icon is gone". On top of that my company refuses to pay for any remote access software... getting them to use any of the free things is almost impossible because the users are trained to be idiots. On top of that I can't put VNC on all of the machines because getting an end user to tell me their machines IP address is even more impossible.

You tell me what to do. Please. Oh and can you do it with the $0 (yes ZERO) budget my department has? Every piece of hardware I buy that replaces a broken piece of equipment (with the exception of additions of staff or new stores) essentially comes out of my raise next year. Right now I get nothing... again.

giantsnyy said,

Out of the 1000+ machines I handle, maybe 25 are Windows 7 Pro. The rest are XP Pro. Also, how am I expected to take my job seriously or do my job well when there are two people to support a crew of over 1,500 people with ~1000 computers? I don't have time to sit down and create a group policy when the other IT manager doesn't want to spend the time with me, and doesn't like the policies I've set forth. I can't spend 3 hours setting policies per location because each one would require a different set. I also can't spend that time because most of the time I'm taking care of broken printers, aging equipment breaking, or "my e-mail doesn't work", and "I can't access the internet because my explorer icon is gone". On top of that my company refuses to pay for any remote access software... getting them to use any of the free things is almost impossible because the users are trained to be idiots. On top of that I can't put VNC on all of the machines because getting an end user to tell me their machines IP address is even more impossible.

You tell me what to do. Please. Oh and can you do it with the $0 (yes ZERO) budget my department has? Every piece of hardware I buy that replaces a broken piece of equipment (with the exception of additions of staff or new stores) essentially comes out of my raise next year. Right now I get nothing... again.

If this is stuff you need to learn on the job, then you are not the right person for the job. It is going to drive you nuts running around putting duct on everything, and it isn't fair to them either, as a more experienced IT professional would be able to take control.

Yes they are putting too much work on two people, and yes they have an unrealistic budget.

If you stay there, serious, screw what the other IT person is doing, learn Active Directory and policies, even on your own at home, it is stuff that is magic and will make you worth a lot more money at some other job.

Then create a plan and drop in core general group policies. If you identify the core issues and core policies to start with, even basic security restraints, it will do wonders to help in putting out fires and stablize your environment, which means less fires you have to run around putting out.

The more you can implement in this manner, and get all the systems and users under the control of the group policies, you can make your job and life a lot easier.

This is why Windows is 'beautiful' in a large scale environment like you are working with, even the older XP machines. Microsoft designs Windows as much or more for corporate users than they do for the average home and small business user.

This is also why it is stupid and costs money to try and drop a Linux or non Windows Server into your network, as it may save a couple of $$, but offers none of the automation and the centralized management cohesion that Windows Servers offer.

If you know what your servers and clients (Windows) are capable of doing automatically, you could have a large scale system like this, where 99% of what you are doing now just works, fixes itself, and even allows for expansion without you touching a button.

For example, you can design policies that when a new computer with Windows is hooked up to the network, it automatically installs all the software the user would need, sets the policies and configurations and is ready to use, without you having to even be there or know about the new computer coming online. The same is true of a system going down or being replaced, it can all be handled by your Windows Server.

There is NOTHING on earth like Windows Server and Windows workstations for having an effortless system of 1000s of systems working flawlessly. Microsoft has made it easier than a mainframe with 1000 dumb terminals, and far more powerful for the users and the administrators like you.

The best analogy is that a Windows environment is much like NT itself, and is very much an Object Based system, and if you think like this, and realize that by dealing with objects - then the computers and users will 'inherent' their settings and software. (NT's IPC is Object based, as well as almost all its internal kernel structures, which is why they specificially made it NOT like UNIX.)

Good Luck, and I do encourage you to spend even a couple of weekends digging into what is possible and find a way to start dropping in policies. If not, run and find something you like doing and leave this mess for someone else to figure out or pull their hair out doing.

While it appears to be yet another new case in the uncharted waters of malware existing on Mac OS X, it is easily avoided by well-educated users.

As is any virus on any platform.

Lucas said,
In before Microsoft/Linux fanboys! w00t!

You dont have that much to worry about. In general, non-Mac users understand that viruses and malware are targeted at popular software, so it doesnt come as a suprise that it could happen to OSx.

Welcome to reality.

autobon said,

You dont have that much to worry about. In general, non-Mac users understand that viruses and malware are targeted at popular software, so it doesnt come as a suprise that it could happen to OSx.

Welcome to reality.

I use both, but I am completely aware that we could have viruses and malware on a Mac as there is on Windows, there is no such perfect system, but quiet funny seeing fanboys who seem to have no clue about things start trash talking.

Sraf said,
Once again proving that, at the end of the day, no OS is safe from an uninformed user

bu..bu..but! thats a MAC!!! and Steve Jobs said its not Windows, and all the videos of the clumsy fatso in a suit vs the rad guy in jeans and sweatshirt just show how superior MAC is!!! i, as a MAC fanatic believe in the power of Steve Jobs, he will come over or send me some geniuses who will fix my viruses


P.S. i used Windows 7 till my laptop broke, i couldnt even run MAC on VMWare

allwynd said,

bu..bu..but! thats a MAC!!! and Steve Jobs said its not Windows, and all the videos of the clumsy fatso in a suit vs the rad guy in jeans and sweatshirt just show how superior MAC is!!! i, as a MAC fanatic believe in the power of Steve Jobs, he will come over or send me some geniuses who will fix my viruses


P.S. i used Windows 7 till my laptop broke, i couldnt even run MAC on VMWare


^That post made me cry.

+1 to what Sraf said.