Sony to disallow resell or renting of PlayStation games after initially supporting it? [Update]

Just as the launch date of PlayStation 4 comes closer, Sony has surprised potential customers by updating their Software Usage Terms to disallow resell or renting of all PlayStation games unless authorized by them and the publisher in case it is not Sony.

Sony started off as the good guy against Microsoft's Xbox One by announcing support for game-lending and resale at the E3 2013 conference back in June. No-DRM was also a key point of Sony's PS4 presentation. However, Sony has updated the Software Usage Terms for the UK and backtracked on the claims it had made earlier.

The terms for PlayStation 3 can be read in entirety over here, the points in question are as follows:

6.3. You must not lease, rent, sublicense, publish, modify, adapt, or translate any portion of the Software.

7.1. You must not resell either Disc-based Software or Software Downloads, unless expressly authorised by us and, if the publisher is another company, additionally by the publisher.

The previous version of the document published in July did not include the newly introduced terms. A more generalized version of the Software Usage Terms which covers all PlayStation devices, has been published to the UK PlayStation website.

It is worth noting that an older, abridged version of those terms on the UK site already included a clause preventing the reselling of games for the PS3, but the newer terms have now expanded this to encompass the PS4 too, apparently contradicting Sony's claims that it would not prevent users from selling their games on after use. We have contacted Sony to request clarification and will update this article if and when we hear back from them. 

Gamers who had been upset with Microsoft's DRM policies voiced support for Sony's PlayStation 4 after the E3 announcement which led to Microsoft reversing on some of their policies. The PlayStation 4 will be available in the US and Europe starting November 15 and November 29, respectively.

Sent in as a news tip. | Image via The Verge


Update: Sony has responded to our request for comment with this statement: 

As SCE announced at E3, consumers will be able to sell or share their PS4 disc products."

Unfortunately, while this statement will reassure PS4 buyers who may want to sell their "disc products" further down the line, it does nothing to clarify the changes that Sony made to its terms of service, which introduced new clauses forbidding certain actions - including the sale of "disc-based software" - nor does it address how these changes will actually affect users. 
 

Editor's note: This article was updated after publishing to clarify comparisons made between the older and newer versions of Sony's terms of usage. 

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It has been this way for over TEN YEARS. This has been active for ages. This is not news at all...
These rules are on current gen consoles and nobody freaked out then.

The author should learn to read. Now I know to never use this site as this idiot just invalidated anything posted here.

Software - the programs and other operating information used by a computer

Disc Based - This is the information on the disc.

What it means is they don't want people ripping the Data from the discs and compressing them into .iso files and then selling or distributing the files, nothing does the new ToS say anything about not selling your physical disc...I hate illiterate people who spread rumors.

I mean how the hell do people think Emulators work, the game file you download is the software on the disc so the game runs. Christ almight.

As was posted elsewhere -'The TOS is talking about the SOFTWARE itself, the code on the disc. You can't sell the SOFTWARE because that's still Sony's property. What you buy when you buy your game is the DISC (and the license to use the software on the disc) but the SOFTWARE remains with Sony, just as when you buy a Blu-ray of a movie, you are buying the physical disc, not the movie on the disc (the movie, i.e. the software, is still owned by the studio, and just because you bought the Blu-ray disc doesn't give you the right to sell the software). The TOS is saying you can't sell the SOFTWARE , for example, after you rip it off the game disc and repack it or burn it another another disc. Nowhere in the TOS does it say you can't sell the DISC. Nothing has changed. You are free to rent, trade, sell, buy your DISC. You cannot sell the SOFTWARE a.k.a. the CODE, that's on the disc a.k.a. the "disc-based software" or the software you download from the PSN.'

Look at all the anger.

We could all learn from Yoda, folks. Never bring out the pitchforks until you are sure they are 100% guilty.

Source: http://uk.playstation.com/lega...55893/Software-Usage-Terms/


All Software is licensed, not sold, which means you acquire rights to use the Software, as described in these Terms, but you do not acquire ownership of the Software. If you do not comply with these Terms, we can terminate your Software License which means you will no longer have the right to use the Software.

So this combined with the ones in the article pretty much makes all info about rights(selling, renting, "owning") that they announced on E3 b*llsh*t. They got the same restrictions as everyone else.

And for all you anti-microsoft anti-nsa people out there. You're beloved Sony isn't any better then Microsoft and everyone else.

14. Are we monitoring PSN?
14.1. Yes but we can't monitor all PSN activity and we make no commitment to do so. However, we reserve the right in our sole discretion to monitor and record any or all of your PSN activity and to remove any of your UGM at our sole discretion, without further notice to you. Your use of PSN and our community features may be recorded and collected by us or sent to us by other users as described in 13.1. Any information collected in this way, for example, your UGM, the content of your voice and text communications, video of your gameplay, the time and location of your activities, and your name, your PSN Online ID and IP address, may be used by us or our affiliated companies to enforce these Terms and the SEN Terms of Service, to comply with the law, to protect our rights and those of our licensors and users, and to protect the personal safety of our employees and users. This information may be passed to the police or other appropriate authorities. By accepting these Software Usage Terms, you expressly consent to this.

Welcome to every T&S of every major corporation out there.

I will eat my words the second Sony or Microsoft tries to take someones game away because they shared it with a friend. All this legal **** is to protect [both] companies as*es.

I still don't know why you are so angry. Both consoles are going to be a great addition to the consumer market. Just play the f*$#ing games and shutup lol...

It still means you can't sell the SOFTWARE, that is copy and resell it, use it for your own purposes, ripping it and distributing it without consent etc.

They are talking about the CODE, not the discs. Neowin, for ****s sake, you are better than this. You KNOW this is a standard issue software agreement.

GoVirtual said,
It still means you can't sell the SOFTWARE, that is copy and resell it, use it for your own purposes, ripping it and distributing it without consent etc.

They are talking about the CODE, not the discs. Neowin, for ****s sake, you are better than this. You KNOW this is a standard issue software agreement.

7.1. You must not resell either Disc-based Software^^^ it is talking abut the discs, I heard this a while back that a lawyer thought it was a neat idea that the original makers of a product have a say if someone wants to resell something they bought.

Sigh. This is making an issue out of nothing. The TOS is talking about the SOFTWARE itself, the code on the disc. You can't sell the SOFTWARE because that's still Sony's property. What you buy when you buy your game is the DISC (and the license to use the software on the disc) but the SOFTWARE remains with Sony, just as when you buy a Blu-ray of a movie, you are buying the physical disc, not the movie on the disc. The TOS is saying you can't rip the SOFTWARE off the game disc and resell that ripped SOFTWARE. Nowhere in the TOS does it say you can't sell the DISC. So nothing has changed. You are free to rent, trade, sell, buy your DISC. You cannot sell the SOFTWARE that's on the disc a.k.a. the "disc-based software" or the software you download from the PSN.

What a frackin' waste of time Neowin has generated by failing to read the TOS carefully and thinking "Disc-based Software" is the same thing as "Game Disc." They're two different things, the former is the code - you're not allowed the sell the code for obvious reasons - the latter is what we buy and CAN rent, sell or buy. All this "Sony lied!" is for nothing.

Riva said,
Funboys always live in denial. Why would it be there if it was pointless?

Tell me: how would they do anything about it? The discs have no unique identifier.

Riva said,
How do you know that? xD

Because they don't include any redemption code, can work offline, and making unique discs is prohibitively expensive.

It says you can't do these things without permission, and Sony never forbade these things. In fact, in their presentation, they clearly demonstrated and stated that you could, and have never revoked this permission. Also, EULAs don't trump the law! They could write that you have to fork over your life savings in the EULA but you still wouldn't have to.

Where's the story here?

Geezy said,
Also, EULAs don't trump the law! They could write that you have to fork over your life savings in the EULA but you still wouldn't have to.

Wait a couple of decades (realistically, 30-40 years will do), and huge multinational companies like Sony or MS will literally own your organs and soul. Hail to "1984", everything that George Orwell wrote in that book, came to reality, or is about to come into reality.

This article is pure rumor, speculation and totally false. Here is the recent Official Sony PS4 FAQ
http://blog.us.playstation.com...te-faq-north-america/#sect3

Does PS4 support used games?

Yes, similar to the PS3 system today, PS4 will not restrict players from playing disc-based used games. When a gamer buys a PS4 disc, they have right to use that copy of the game, so they can trade-in the game at retail, sell it to another person, lend it to a friend, or keep it forever. Furthermore, users will not have to go through activation steps or be charged usage fees when playing used disc-based games on their PS4 system.


Will any PS4 titles use an Online Pass?

First-party titles on PS4 (titles developed by Sony Computer Entertainment) will not use an Online Pass program. When it comes to third-party titles, PlayStation won't dictate the strategy of publishers concerning Online Pass programs. However, most third parties have phased out the use of Online Pass systems, so they're unlikely to appear on PS4.

Can PS4 customers lend and borrow games?

Yes, they can lend and borrow disc-based games without restriction.

Can PS4 customers trade and sell games?

Yes, they can trade and sell disc-based games freely.

So why is this not being reported by anyone else?

It is worth noting that an older, abridged version of those terms on the UK site already included a clause preventing the reselling of games for the PS3, but the newer terms have now expanded this to encompass the PS4 too, apparently contradicting Sony's claims that it would not prevent users from selling their games on after use. We have contacted Sony to request clarification on their update terms, and will update this article if/when we hear from them.

People can resell/trade in things now with the PS3. So why the **** would this stop them from doing it with PS4 games if they contain the same terms?

It seems that in this day and age companies can say one thing in public that goes completely against their own ToS or EULAs and not get in any trouble for it.

Its a sad state of affairs, but nothing new. Cell phone companies have been selling "Unlimited" Data Plans for awhile now and they don't get in trouble so long as they explain that they are lying somewhere.

The problem is unless i'm mistaken there's absolutely no law regulating what can be and what can't be include inside an EULA/TOS (which is terribly sad). In fact the legal status of EULA/TOS contracts is shady at best. Again unless i'm mistaken we are not 100% sure an EULA or TOS contract would hold if tested in a court of law as most of the time the users don't even know they actually "sign" a contract.

It's sad but like you said nothing new as all TOS and EULA are filled with stupid clauses where users agree to revoke their rights. Personally i don't see how can anyone agree to revoke his own rights given by the real laws in place. As far as i know you can sell a disc (in Canada anyway). I don't think a TOS or EULA contract can legally change this or at the very least as far as i know it has not been tested in a court of law.

Sony can create a DRM to prevent you from playing used disc on PSN. But i don't think they can legally prevent you from selling used disc with a simple EULA contract as the laws in place say that you can legally do it.

I think that you are right in some aspects, but ultimately the EULA/TOS is there to protect the company against a law suit. And for that much I think its a successful measure. If I violate a TOS with a company, they drop my service, and I then try and sue them I'm sure the fact that I violated the TOS will be enough to have the judge throw the law suit out.

If you break the EULA/TOS then the company can use that to disable your service or void a warranty (for example).

Sony can create a DRM to prevent you from playing used disc on PSN. But i don't think they can legally prevent you from selling used disc with a simple EULA contract as the laws in place say that you can legally do it.

But they can put copy protection in place that disables the disc from being useful to whom ever you sell it the disc to. You are right in that the physical disc you can sell. The question is: did you sell the rights to play the game on that disc when you sold the physical media?

Unfortunately there is already an established practice in PC gaming that the product/activation keys are what enable a person the license to access the content. For example, I'm sure there is nothing illegal about me selling all my Blizzard PC games (the box, the disc, everything). But because the activation key has already been used, Blizzard is under no obligation to issue new activation keys to anyone I sold my media to. Further, they've locked that key to my account so I would have to transfer my entire account. Even further then that, their EULA/TOS states that I _cannot_ transfer my account and that someone else cannot use a transferred account. So if I sold my account to someone, that person would be violating Blizzards EULA/TOS and that gives Blizzard grounds to not offer service to that someone.

Shadrack said,

But they can put copy protection in place that disables the disc from being useful to whom ever you sell it the disc to.

Yes of course but Sony already said they wont do that next gen. 3rd parties might do it but sony itself wont do it. I don't think we must see this EULA as a change of mind that Sony gonna use DRM software to prevent the sale of used games.

To be honest if a 3rd party company comes with a well designed and not too noisy steam box for a good price and if the controller works well i might decide to get a Steam Box. Most games i play these days are multiplatform anyway.

Lone Wanderer Chicken said,
Screw everything, I am just going to buy a Wii U new

Ha. Don't know if you're serious or not, but I basically did the same thing about five months ago. Got a Wii U then for my console gaming fix, and got a new gaming PC for my hardcore gaming.

First of all this is a Windows biased site and this source is a news tip? Get your facts straight before making such statements. And for the rest don't be so gullible with everything you read.

Does PS4 support used games?

Yes, similar to the PS3 system today, PS4 will not restrict players from playing disc-based used games. When a gamer buys a PS4 disc, they have right to use that copy of the game, so they can trade-in the game at retail, sell it to another person, lend it to a friend, or keep it forever. Furthermore, users will not have to go through activation steps or be charged usage fees when playing used disc-based games on their PS4 system.
Will any PS4 titles use an Online Pass?

First-party titles on PS4 (titles developed by Sony Computer Entertainment) will not use an Online Pass program. When it comes to third-party titles, PlayStation won't dictate the strategy of publishers concerning Online Pass programs. However, most third parties have phased out the use of Online Pass systems, so they're unlikely to appear on PS4.
Can PS4 customers lend and borrow games?

Yes, they can lend and borrow disc-based games without restriction.
Can PS4 customers trade and sell games?

Yes, they can trade and sell disc-based games freely.

Source
http://blog.us.playstation.com...te-faq-north-america/#sect3

If you're wondering what this new Terms apply to, is the digital software, that a person is not supposed to buy a game from the PS store and resell it by giving him access to your account for him to download and then pay you, and this has been applied to PS3 for a while now so this isn't really news.
So to the OP please get your facts straight before you incorrectly inform the people without further research.

Edited by MikeJon, Nov 11 2013, 4:18pm :

MikeJon said,
First of all this is a Windows biased site and this source is a news tip? Get your facts straight before making such statements. And for the rest don't be so gullible with everything you read.

Does PS4 support used games?

Yes, similar to the PS3 system today, PS4 will not restrict players from playing disc-based used games. When a gamer buys a PS4 disc, they have right to use that copy of the game, so they can trade-in the game at retail, sell it to another person, lend it to a friend, or keep it forever. Furthermore, users will not have to go through activation steps or be charged usage fees when playing used disc-based games on their PS4 system.
Will any PS4 titles use an Online Pass?

First-party titles on PS4 (titles developed by Sony Computer Entertainment) will not use an Online Pass program. When it comes to third-party titles, PlayStation won't dictate the strategy of publishers concerning Online Pass programs. However, most third parties have phased out the use of Online Pass systems, so they're unlikely to appear on PS4.
Can PS4 customers lend and borrow games?

Yes, they can lend and borrow disc-based games without restriction.
Can PS4 customers trade and sell games?

Yes, they can trade and sell disc-based games freely.

Source
http://blog.us.playstation.com...te-faq-north-america/#sect3

If you're wondering what this new Terms apply to, is the digital software, that a person is not supposed to buy a game from the PS store and resell it by giving him access to your account for him to download and then pay you, and this has been applied to PS3 for a while now so this isn't really news.
So to the OP please get your facts straight before you incorrectly inform the people without further research.

I have been a reader for a long time on neowin, YEARS, and I've seen some trash headlines in the past... But this takes the cake, this title should be changed for multiple reasons. This is very disappointing neowin.

2. Defined Terms
2.1. "Authorised Systems" means any of PS one, PlayStation®2, PlayStation®Portable, PlayStation®3, PlayStation®Vita and PlayStation®4 systems.

2.2. "Software" means PlayStation game and application software developed to operate on one or more of the Authorised Systems.

3. When do these Software Usage Terms apply?
3.1. Our Software Usage Terms ("Terms") apply to your use of all Software on Authorised Systems.

7. Resale
7.1. You must not resell either Disc-based Software or Software Downloads, unless expressly authorised by us and, if the publisher is another company, additionally by the publisher.

http://uk.playstation.com/lega...55893/Software-Usage-Terms/
November 2013

MikeJon said,
First of all this is a Windows biased site and this source is a news tip? Get your facts straight before making such statements. And for the rest don't be so gullible with everything you read.

Does PS4 support used games?

Yes, similar to the PS3 system today, PS4 will not restrict players from playing disc-based used games. When a gamer buys a PS4 disc, they have right to use that copy of the game, so they can trade-in the game at retail, sell it to another person, lend it to a friend, or keep it forever. Furthermore, users will not have to go through activation steps or be charged usage fees when playing used disc-based games on their PS4 system.
Will any PS4 titles use an Online Pass?

First-party titles on PS4 (titles developed by Sony Computer Entertainment) will not use an Online Pass program. When it comes to third-party titles, PlayStation won't dictate the strategy of publishers concerning Online Pass programs. However, most third parties have phased out the use of Online Pass systems, so they're unlikely to appear on PS4.
Can PS4 customers lend and borrow games?

Yes, they can lend and borrow disc-based games without restriction.
Can PS4 customers trade and sell games?

Yes, they can trade and sell disc-based games freely.

Source
http://blog.us.playstation.com...te-faq-north-america/#sect3

If you're wondering what this new Terms apply to, is the digital software, that a person is not supposed to buy a game from the PS store and resell it by giving him access to your account for him to download and then pay you, and this has been applied to PS3 for a while now so this isn't really news.
So to the OP please get your facts straight before you incorrectly inform the people without further research.


And here are the EULAs for Xbox, Nintendo, and Steam that all say essentially the same thing.

http://i.imgur.com/N0loeWi.png

My god, everyone who actually takes this article on face value is an absolute idiot. Not a single reputable site is reporting on this. Don't people think for like one second, and conclude that this would be the biggest news ever if it actually means what you morons think it means?

Thief000 said,
Tweakers.net is very reputable in the Netherlands.

We'll this article has a massive headline flaw - now it's confirmed that it's only PSN relating to digital downloads - nothing to do with retail games. It's on ign

nitroxhotshot said,

We'll this article has a massive headline flaw - now it's confirmed that it's only PSN relating to digital downloads - nothing to do with retail games. It's on ign

That'll be why it says "disc-based" games then. O_o

Yeah I am not buying this, the story is from N4G and no reliable gaming site has called them out on this. Not believing it until more places other than N4G pick this up. I don't think SONY would shoot themselves in the face this bad... I mean come on... .right?

Sony may "monitor and record" all PSN activity on PlayStation 4

The updated Terms of Usage also points out that all PlayStation software is "licensed, not sold," meaning players acquire rights to use software, but do not own said software. As such, players are not permitted to resell disc-based games or downloads, Sony said, unless Sony grants permission. **This policy has been in place since the original PlayStation, though Sony has never blocked the sale of secondhand games**.

Not seeing a huge end of the world headline referring to not being able to tradein games

zeroomegazx said,

Sony may "monitor and record" all PSN activity on PlayStation 4

The updated Terms of Usage also points out that all PlayStation software is "licensed, not sold," meaning players acquire rights to use software, but do not own said software. As such, players are not permitted to resell disc-based games or downloads, Sony said, unless Sony grants permission. **This policy has been in place since the original PlayStation, though Sony has never blocked the sale of secondhand games**.

Not seeing a huge end of the world headline referring to not being able to tradein games


Good thing Sony gave us permission to resell disc based games.

Downloadable software has always been different. Haven't seen someone successfully sue Steam or Origin here yet, while our consumer protection laws outclass the EU ones.

When you buy a disc and license, you buy a license to play/use the disc and the software/game that's on it.
With downloadable software/games this is entirely different.

These laws were from times when software was a complete non-issue.
Like when you buy a book or even a cassette/cd, where you have a physical object, and the thing you have a license over, is in your head. (reading/listening)

Seems to me, I won't be buying either console, at least not for quite some time. Ironically, PC gaming will be better due to these consoles and I'm sticking with that.

This is the problem with "agreeing" to on the fly TOS changes when you buy consoles. You might have been agreeable to the original terms, but after your invested, they change the rules on any whim.

It will be no different to today's policies. We can still trade in disc games etc, it's obviously something to do with resellers etc and that's even if it is true at all. And it clearly states that it is PS3 terms, nothing to do with PS4

Pure nonsense - there were even videos published by Sony stating you can lend games to a friend.

I'm sure someone will ask Yoshida via twitter to confirm this cas I don't believe it

My guess is that after announcing that they WOULD support re-selling, their "express authorization" would be implied anyway. But way to screw up the release week of the console. Someone must be fired.

Microsoft got it hard for having basically the same policy when they announced the Xbox One so I hope people cause as much fuss for Sony too. It is bull**** not being able to resell the game I OWN. They already make resales of games on current systems more difficult as they include codes to redeem bits of the games which can only be used once (i.e. by the first buyer). I picked up GT5 Academy Edition on Saturday and a lot of the extras were DLC that you needed to redeem but obviously the code was already used so a lot of those extras I can never get. Total bull****. What makes things worse is they don't even have a feature in place to allow me to pay a little amount to them to get that extra content on second hand games. I bought the game for £1 at CeX (normally would be £7 but it had no case/manuals just in a blank DVD case) so I don't care too much about the extra content but I would happily pay £2 or £3 to be able to get it and it would be free money for Sony. I believe this is actually a feature in the next gen consoles though. I don't agree with it, after all Nissan don't get any money when a car is resold for example. Game publishers seem to think they should get a cut every single time the game is sold on, even privately.

Microsoft got it hard for having basically the same policy when they announced the Xbox One so I hope people cause as much fuss for Sony too

Microsoft policy was enforced with DRM you could not bypass without hacking the system. Sony policy is not. It's the same TOS **** every companies had for years. Still sad but nothing new.

True but considering the jabs Sony took at Microsoft about the whole second hand game scandal at the time it makes this a bit of a dick move by Sony less than a week before the release of the console.

So many idiots in here. "Disc-based Software".

Listen, you can't sell the software itself, but you can sell the original disc/software combo.

Ah... armchair lawyers.
This isn't new and MS has near enough the same T&Cs as well (sections 1.1 and 1.9).
The problem here is 'what is a reseller?' within a legal and retail framework - for instance in telecoms and sometimes finance, a reseller is someone who acts as a middleman, badging your product up as their own, whilst an agreement is made between the two parties, within this regard the idea here would be that you cannot dress up Sony software as your own, and then sell it on as such.

6.3. You must not lease, rent, sublicense, publish, modify, adapt, or translate any portion of the Software.

7.1. You must not resell either Disc-based Software or Software Downloads, unless expressly authorised by us and, if the publisher is another company, additionally by the publisher.

Dunno bout you guys, but that means jack diddly squat.
Those terms are in the PS3 version, and I have lent games to friends and when im done, traded them in at a EB games store for cash. Always have, always will. Game stores will also continue to buy copies of used games as its their main source of income.
Also 3rd point - no one ever EVER reads the terms and conditions on anything. Its always 'next next apply ok ok ok ok next'.

Anarkii said,
6.3. You must not lease, rent, sublicense, publish, modify, adapt, or translate any portion of the Software.

7.1. You must not resell either Disc-based Software or Software Downloads, unless expressly authorised by us and, if the publisher is another company, additionally by the publisher.

Dunno bout you guys, but that means jack diddly squat.
Those terms are in the PS3 version, and I have lent games to friends and when im done, traded them in at a EB games store for cash. Always have, always will. Game stores will also continue to buy copies of used games as its their main source of income.
Also 3rd point - no one ever EVER reads the terms and conditions on anything. Its always 'next next apply ok ok ok ok next'.

Agreed.

But I don't think they mean your games. Meh' have fun with that over there though.

im thinking someone just messed up something,or got the wording wrong being that there are conflicting reports from Sony, and the TOS

Neowin, please enlist writers with reading skills. This policy is about the SOFTWARE, not the MEDIA. You can do whatever the **** you want with your games, but you down OWN the software (code etc) in itself. They own the right to their games. Not that weird.

You can find a software like this on every game, application, movie, cd etc you have ever purchased.

Hello,

GoVirtual said,
you down OWN the software (code etc) in itself.

...did you just say you, as a user, own the code to the software (game)?

They were smart , create a nice image for the product , close the gaps later when buyers already formed "an ideea" in their heards. So what ?

6.3 Sounds like it's referring to the internal software of the device; it's operating system, and is likely there to discourage hacking.

7.1 is completely illegal under EU trade laws and dozens of consumer protection laws in regard to disc based software. Ignore it. If they try to lock you in with one time only activation keys, they'll get sued into oblivion. Again.

Nah, Blizzard gets away with it, your copy of WoW is worthless without an online pass. And I can't sell my SimCity or FTL.
And usually with most games, they are still playable without an online pass. Just no multiplayer/online.

No chance, they'll get away with it, even if its simply because others have for many years now.

You need to read up on the law then. MMO's are classed differently as they're subscription based games that require a monthly fee to access. Disc based games though? Hell, thanks to recent EU legislative changes even digital content games too, can be freely resold and there's NOTHING the companies can do about it.

The EULA is not legally enforceable, and this has been -proven- in EU courts. They still include them, but they're legally worthless.

Neowin posting yet another cringe worth story. You know, I'm not sure how many more stories like these are required before your reputation starts to head south?

Yeah I think people are getting this a bit wrong, the xbone idea was you buy a game with a disc and serial number and only if your serial number is valid and unused does it let you use it, I see no mention of the PS4 having serial numbers on games being compulsary and therefore it's nothing alike, you can sell your game if you want.

Calm down, internet fools:

This is the exact same legal wording Sony have used for years.

This is the exact same legal wording Sony have used for years.

This is the exact same legal wording Sony have used for years.

This is the exact same legal wording Sony have used for years.

So, people with reading skills, you DO know that this is NOTHING, and in no way similar to the original Xbox One rules?

The same line is in the TOS for Wii , WiiU , 360 and PS3.

Read that again ^

Soldiers33 said,
funny how everyone is so quiet now. If this was about xbox then there would be tons of negative comments.

XBox One policy was enforced with DRM preventing you to bypass it. This policy is not and you'll be able to bypass it without any problem unles you are a reseller like Gamestop.

AHHAHAHAHAH.... hahahahahah,,,,, hahahahahhahahahahah!!!!!!!!!

So much for Sony being the good guys here... They've just made their console DoA...

It's amazing that we've come to a point in history where we need confirmation whether we (the customer) are allowed to sell our property (the disc).

georgevella said,
It's amazing that we've come to a point in history where we need confirmation whether we (the customer) are allowed to sell our property (the disc).

You own the disc, and YOU own the right to play it. You can sell the disc to anyone, but you can't sell the rights to be able to play it.....unless the copyright holder allows it.

Oh you are right. I bought the right to play the game and the disc storing it. But these two concepts are bound together. You don't expect to buy a disc but can't play the game - heck it doesn't even make sense.

georgevella said,
Oh you are right. I bought the right to play the game and the disc storing it. But these two concepts are bound together. You don't expect to buy a disc but can't play the game - heck it doesn't even make sense.

Kinda,

When you buy the game from a store, you buy the disc AND the right to play the game. However, when you then sell that game on, things aren't so clear cut.

Companies love hiding behind their pages upon pages of T&Cs

georgevella said,
Oh you are right. I bought the right to play the game and the disc storing it. But these two concepts are bound together. You don't expect to buy a disc but can't play the game - heck it doesn't even make sense.

You can say it doesn't make sense, but thats what you do. When you buy a copy of any software, you are buying a license to use it. Not the actual software. You don't own Windows 7, you own a license to use Windows 7.

glen8 said,

You own the disc, and YOU own the right to play it. You can sell the disc to anyone, but you can't sell the rights to be able to play it.....unless the copyright holder allows it.

When book publishers tried that, the courts smacked them down hard. I expect a similar outcome.

georgevella said,
Oh you are right. I bought the right to play the game and the disc storing it. But these two concepts are bound together. You don't expect to buy a disc but can't play the game - heck it doesn't even make sense.

I'll sell you all my Blizzard game discs then . I assure you, they will be worthless to you considering the Product Keys are all activated to my account. But I'd be glad to sell them to you. The games are physically on the disc. You might be able to use some hack to play them or something.... *shrug*

This might be how it is moving forward for XBox One and PS4 games. Once the license is "activated" to an account: the disc is nothing more than bits to play a game that you needs the rights to in order to play.

I'm going to wait it out a few months to see which one system has the less restrictive policies. I pretty much ONLY buy my games used these days. I don't see much point in paying $60 when I can wait a few months and buy the game used for half as much.

I told you so.

After all, why would they apply for a patent on RFID chips to disable discs based, and then pretend to be the good guys.

Classic Sony. They will sneak up to you -- this time they will be screaming BANZAI, though.

Lamp0 said,
What are you talking about? There is no DRM here, People will still be able to buy & sell used PS4 games.

NOBODY here says that there is DRM (for now). Re-read the topic of the post.

I think people are misunderstanding resell. I think it means being a reseller of games like GameStop or any other retailer that sells games not in the sense of reselling you game used.

Karanlos said,
I think people are misunderstanding resell. I think it means being a reseller of games like GameStop or any other retailer that sells games not in the sense of reselling you game used.

If you sell your game on eBay that was sold to you at a shop you're a reseller. You're selling something that was sold once already. That's what it means in the end.

Karanlos said,
I think people are misunderstanding resell. I think it means being a reseller of games like GameStop or any other retailer that sells games not in the sense of reselling you game used.

I don't think there is a misunderstanding. I think it applies to everyone. But only to be enforced on retail resellers.

Karanlos said,
I think people are misunderstanding resell. I think it means being a reseller of games like GameStop or any other retailer that sells games not in the sense of reselling you game used.

resell applies to anything you buy and sell again.
re
sell

If it said 'Resell' or "Reseller' with caps, that would apply to Gamestop and the like. It would also have a stated definition of Resell in the document.

episode said,

resell applies to anything you buy and sell again.
re
sell

If it said 'Resell' or "Reseller' with caps, that would apply to Gamestop and the like. It would also have a stated definition of Resell in the document.


Absolutely. +1

Where's Microsoft waiting for? Kick their asses Microsoft, the odds are yours. It's even more fun because this also counts for the PS3.

The question is not clear. 'Can I sell my own games on PS4'. Well, a game you purchase isn't 'your' game. Its a game you bought a license to play. He simply answers 'yes' which could mean he is answering the exact question as posed, like being able to sell a game you make yourself on the store.

They'd better be VERY clear about this situation, and soon.

This would be the worst bait and switch I've seen in gaming otherwise.

This video, with 14 million views, won them a LOT of support.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWSIFh8ICaA

If you can't decide to let the person you shared it with keep it forever, and accept something in return for that, then that's really not on.

The playstation 3 has the same terms, not sure when it was updated. Also, I don't see anything on the US side.. seems to be for UK.

I'm pretty sure the same terms were in place for every other PlayStation before it. Don't blow this out of proportion!
The have expressly authorised you already...

pphheerroonn said,
I'm pretty sure the same terms were in place for every other PlayStation before it. Don't blow this out of proportion!
The have expressly authorised you already...

This is true, we were given express authority at e3 when they said we could.

firey said,
well, they would have to tell use we can't, otherwise their FAQ and spoken consent give us permission
Not true, you have to agree with those statements before you can use your PlayStation.

pphheerroonn said,

The have expressly authorised you already...

Doesn't work like that. You have yet to enter into the agreement with them until you click 'agree'. The terms of that agreement are what you have to follow, not anything said before (or after, unless they amend it and you agree again). You can consider anything before the agreement the negotiation.

Studio384 said,
Not true, you have to agree with those statements before you can use your PlayStation.

To buy and sell a game you don't need to own a Playstation.
This also brings the question: can one product legally have a certain license term which actually limits your actions with other products that you individually buy down the road?

gonchuki said,

To buy and sell a game you don't need to own a Playstation.
This also brings the question: can one product legally have a certain license term which actually limits your actions with other products that you individually buy down the road?

Legally i don't think so.

Anyway the legal status of the TOS as a contract is already shady at best. Unless i'm mistaken it as yet to be tried in a court of law.

European law prohibits this anyways. At least the dutch law is easy on this, any product or material you own, you are allowed to sell.

I can legally sell heroin to a friend of mine if I own some of it without ever getting a record or getting arrested for it. And that's about illegal substances already.... Let alone a perfectly legitimate CD/DVD/BR I purchased and want to sell, no Sony TOS is going to stop me from doing such.

Also its the same exact TOS as the PS3 launched with in 2006-2007. Never heard any issues back then, why are people crying so loud about it now?

firey said,

This is true, we were given express authority at e3 when they said we could.


That hardly trumps the "all inclusive" terms that you agree to when using the console...

It's the same if you look at XOne's license agreement. It's just layerish crap that will protect either Microsoft or Sony in extreme cases. Without these you never know what you're going to face as corporation.

This time Microsoft made the choice between the 2 consoles easier than ever. You're going to invest on a console for at least the next 5 years, so... the only choice is PS4. Why to pay more in order to get inferior hardware ( Xone )? You've to be completely ignorant.

It's like back then, Super Nintendo vs Sega Mega Drive. Only fools had gotten Sega and if you were looking to buy used console, you could find plenty of extremely cheap Mega Drives but very few and expensive SNES. Don't do the same mistake; you've been warned.

This could be just to cover Sony. Just incase for some reason a publisher doesn't want their game being re-sold. I would also think that would be down to the retailer to not allow you to trade in that particular game.

I still think you'll be able to take your games to a shop and trade them in.

Indeed, but we'll find out soon enough. It would be ridiculous for Sony to clamp down on second hand games after capitalising on the backlash against Microsoft's plan to do the same.

Regardless, I do think it's pretty sleazy for companies to constantly update their EULAs / licence agreements with these sorts of clauses, especially when 99% of people will not read them.

theyarecomingforyou said,
It would be ridiculous for Sony to clamp down on second hand games after capitalising on the backlash against Microsoft's plan to do the same.

That's their M.O. recently though to be fair. Use any whiff of bad press about Microsoft's Xbox One, and announce the exact opposite policy for the PS4. Then quietly reveal the truth later...

TCLN Ryster said,

That's their M.O. recently though to be fair. Use any whiff of bad press about Microsoft's Xbox One, and announce the exact opposite policy for the PS4. Then quietly reveal the truth later...


Tell me about it! I feel like I'm the only one who has noticed that every time the tech media would run a negative speculative piece on the Xbox One, Sony would jump out from behind the curtains hours later and announce the exact opposite of whatever was being criticized. Then weeks later, a new story would come out to little fanfare announcing the same consumer-unfriendly policy/requirement/change was going to happen with the PS4 (usually without mentioning that it is the same policy that applies to the Xbox One). It's surprising to me how the typical anti-Microsoft media bias is now even affecting the Xbox, which was Microsoft's golden child in the media for the last decade.

Its more surprising to see the typical anti-Sony hatred though.

Sony hasn't really changed much to their ToS and DRM situation since the launch of the PS3. (This about reselling was part of their ToS in 2006-2007 btw=w, the exact same part).

Probably only there to do something about severe abuse on the matter, never heard anyone having issues with it before.

And since everyone today is going nuts on Sony and its DRM/TOS....

Let's not forget Sony was the first and only console builder that allowed people to hack/root their system to play copied and imported games until ~2months after the launch of the PS2 due to PUBLISHER OUTCRY!!!!!!

Stop blaming Sony/MS for this ToS/DRM bullsh*t... it's not their choice, its the publishers.

illage3 said,
WTF! O_O

Classic Sony.

So they have to be sneaky buggers. What do they mean by unless expressly authorised by us? Do they expect me to write love letters to them each time I need permission to sell my game on ebay?

Hopefully these conditions are just there to cover their asses. Wouldn't mean much in real life. Just a reminder that selling is illegal but you can still go ahead.

If those conditions are rigorously enforced, then Xbox One becomes clear simple choice.

I'm reasonably sure this ToC language doesn't go against what Sony originally said, and we'll still be able to lend out games, trade them in etc.

The language, to me, seems to be specifically targeting resellers. From Wikipedia:

"A reseller is a company or individual (merchant) that purchases goods or services with the intention of reselling them rather than consuming or using them."

The important part is the last part: ...RATHER than consuming or using them. Basically, this language is to allow Sony to only allow authorised resellers to sell sealed games.

iKenndac said,
I'm reasonably sure this ToC language doesn't go against what Sony originally said, and we'll still be able to lend out games, trade them in etc.

The language, to me, seems to be specifically targeting resellers. From Wikipedia:

"A reseller is a company or individual (merchant) that purchases goods or services with the intention of reselling them rather than consuming or using them."

The important part is the last part: ...RATHER than consuming or using them. Basically, this language is to allow Sony to only allow authorised resellers to sell sealed games.

You're making a optimistic assumption there, if this was just for resellers then it wouldn't be so broad/general in it's wording. And for that matter if you turn around and sell your game on eBay after finishing it you are then technically a reseller.

iKenndac said,
I'm reasonably sure this ToC language doesn't go against what Sony originally said, and we'll still be able to lend out games, trade them in etc.

The language, to me, seems to be specifically targeting resellers. From Wikipedia:

"A reseller is a company or individual (merchant) that purchases goods or services with the intention of reselling them rather than consuming or using them."

The important part is the last part: ...RATHER than consuming or using them. Basically, this language is to allow Sony to only allow authorised resellers to sell sealed games.


Unless it specifically states that this applies to resellers (in which case you'd see the capitalized word Reseller and a definition of the word Reseller in the context), this applies to any action to which the general word "resell" would be applicable. This includes a regular consumer selling the game on Ebay.

Mind it, Sony isn't the one that is going to prohibit resale here (even if they are permitted to do so according to the Usage Terms), it will be the publisher which would have the final say in the matter.

illage3 said,
WTF! O_O

Haha, I know 1 day Sony will flip and turning against consumers. Not surprised...
If you people thinks Sony is great, by all means.
I'm not against Sony, just saying'

Classic Sony indeed and right before launch so most people that have preordered won't know about it and go through with it, only to come out betrayed.
If Sony go through with this, I expect GAF and N4G to give them the same courtesy they did MS...oh wait who am I kidding...

How is Sony bad here, its the exact same frigging ToS and DRM situation as with the PS3.... Nothing has even changed.

I never heard anyone about this 8 years ago, but suddenly this is all a big frigging issue?

Not only this, but a big games blog is showing this from the PS4 EULA:

"Any information collected in this way, for example, your UGM, the content of your voice and text communications, video of your gameplay, the time and location of your activities, and your name, your PSN Online ID and IP address, may be used by us or our affiliated companies to enforce these Terms and the SEN Terms of Service, to comply with the law, to protect our rights and those of our licensors and users, and to protect the personal safety of our employees and users. This information may be passed to the police or other appropriate authorities. By accepting these Software Usage Terms, you expressly consent to this.""

So make a bunch of fake noise about X1 stealing your voice and video then sending it directly to the NSA and Steve Ballmer for his own personal use and enjoyment. Microsoft releases a privacy policy that states you have control over your data, and people still attack them for it. But Sony specifically states they will do whatever they want with your data, not one person complains about that.

sanke1 said,

Classic Sony.

So they have to be sneaky buggers. What do they mean by unless expressly authorised by us? Do they expect me to write love letters to them each time I need permission to sell my game on ebay?

Hopefully these conditions are just there to cover their asses. Wouldn't mean much in real life. Just a reminder that selling is illegal but you can still go ahead.

If those conditions are rigorously enforced, then Xbox One becomes clear simple choice.


Sony is nothing if not sneaky...

The TOS is talking about the SOFTWARE itself, the code on the disc. You can't sell the SOFTWARE because that's still Sony's property. What you buy when you buy your game is the DISC (and the license to use the software on the disc) but the SOFTWARE remains with Sony, just as when you buy a Blu-ray of a movie, you are buying the physical disc, not the movie on the disc (the movie, i.e. the software, is still owned by the studio, and just because you bought the Blu-ray disc doesn't give you the right to sell the software). The TOS is saying you can't sell the SOFTWARE , for example, after you rip it off the game disc and repack it or burn it another another disc. Nowhere in the TOS does it say you can't sell the DISC. Nothing has changed. You are free to rent, trade, sell, buy your DISC. You cannot sell the SOFTWARE a.k.a. the CODE, that's on the disc a.k.a. the "disc-based software" or the software you download from the PSN.

What a frackin' waste of time Neowin has generated by thinking "Disc-based Software" is the same thing as "Game Disc." They're two different things! The code is not the same thing as the disc that the code is on. The code/software you can't sell, the disc you can rent, buy or sell. All this "Sony lied!" is for nothing.

" 6.3. You must not lease, rent, sublicense, publish, modify, adapt, or translate any portion of the Software.
7.1. You must not resell either Disc-based Software or Software Downloads, unless expressly authorised by us and, if the publisher is another company, additionally by the publisher. "

ok lets put the terms differently

Software Disc = Game Disc

Software Download = Game Download

Disc = Physical Media ie Blu Ray

so Disc Based Software is the same as a Game Disc because the software code is on the disc

7.1 Clarifies ... it doesn't matter whether the software comes on Disc or Download you still can not lease/rent or resell the Game.

" The TOS is saying you can't sell the SOFTWARE , for example, after you rip it off the game disc and repack it or burn it another another disc."

You are correct that you cant rip the software of the disc and resell it.

" What a frackin' waste of time Neowin has generated by thinking "Disc-based Software" is the same thing as "Game Disc."
" Nothing has changed. You are free to rent, trade, sell, buy your DISC. You cannot sell the SOFTWARE a.k.a. the CODE, that's on the disc a.k.a. the "disc-based software" or the software you download from the PSN. "

you are correct in the above statement that you can buy the disc.

You have contradicted yourself with this statement by saying you cant sell the game disc software yet before you said you cant copy the software.

Q. How can you sell the disc and not sell the software encoded onto it?

illage3 said,
WTF! O_O

Didn't they say you are allowed to resell/whatever you want if the publisher allows it same with the DRM policies, the publisher can choose what they want to do... back at E3...

Anyone here actually watch E3?

yes I did watch E3.
They did say show that disc based software can be given away subject to TOS.
They need a TOS from day one which allows them to remove the permission to resell at any time and not have to rewrite the terms of service.

Mal1 said,
" 6.3. You must not lease, rent, sublicense, publish, modify, adapt, or translate any portion of the Software.
7.1. You must not resell either Disc-based Software or Software Downloads, unless expressly authorised by us and, if the publisher is another company, additionally by the publisher. "

ok lets put the terms differently

Software Disc = Game Disc

Software Download = Game Download

Disc = Physical Media ie Blu Ray

so Disc Based Software is the same as a Game Disc because the software code is on the disc

No. You've confused Disc based Software with the Game Disc.

Disc based Software =/= Game Disc. Software is the code ON the game disc, not the game disc itself.

The Game Disc is the physical platter. That is what we buy when we buy and own. The Software on the game disc is never sold to us. What we own is the Game Disc AND a license to use the Software ON the Game Disc but the Software itself is never sold to us.

you are correct in the above statement that you can buy the disc.

You have contradicted yourself with this statement by saying you cant sell the game disc software yet before you said you cant copy the software.

Q. How can you sell the disc and not sell the software encoded onto it?

There is no contradiction because when you sell the disc, you also sell the LICENSE authorizing you to use the software on the disc. But you can't sell the software on the disc because it was never SOLD to you and you do not OWN it. You bought only tie disc and the LICENSE to use the software on the disc but not the software itself.

Think about it this way - do you think you're the owner of Star Wars simply because Lucasfilm has sold you the Blu-ray of the movie? Are you the owner of Harry Potter because you bought the book? No to either. What you have bought is the physical disc that Star Wars is recorded on or the paper that Harry Potter is printed on but Lucasfilm and JK Rowling remain the owners of the movie and book. They never sold the "software" to you, you only bought the object they're stored on and the license to watch or read them. When you sell your Blu-ray or book to a shop, you are not selling the movie or book themselves (since you never owned them), you are selling only the things that they are embedded on and the accompanying license to watch or read the software/movie/book.

Games are the same thing - when you buy, sell or trade your game disc, you are selling the disc itself (and the license to use the code on the disc). But the software itself? That was never sold to you. Even when you do sell the object the software/movie/book is recorded on, you're only selling the object, not the software/movie/book.

Edited by ddarko, Nov 12 2013, 7:35pm :