Editorial

TechSpot: Why Windows 8 Start Menu's Absence is Irrelevant

Although every product deserves healthy criticism, many opinions of Windows 8 seem to be based on misconceptions, especially when it comes to the viability of Metro as a Start menu replacement. For the record, I don't care if you skip the update -- hell, I might pass on it too -- nor do I care if it's the most failtastic operating system in Windows' 26-year history. While certain anonymous posters might try to convince you otherwise, I have nothing to gain or lose from the launch of Windows 8.

However, I believe your opinion should be formed by facts, not irrational rhetoric parroted online by so-called power users and companies that want to sell you third-party programs. I can say without a doubt that many people who oppose the Start menu's removal haven't even used Windows 8, yet they don't hesitate to inform you about Metro's inadequacies by listing all the features it's supposedly missing. The truth is, functionally speaking, Metro is basically identical to the Start menu.

Read: Why Windows 8 Start Menu's Absence is Irrelevant

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All of you people that keep saying there is software you can install to get it back need to realize everything you have to pay for that replaces something that has been remove should be deducted off the price of windows. example if it costs $20 to install the start menu then instead of being $99 for windows upgrade it should be $79 if there are other things remove then it should be less. i am not going to pay for something that should be included in windows. i have tried windows mobile and cannot stand it if i have to learn a new operating system i will be going to linux. i am not going to relearn windows. i will get my self in a better position and learn how to use something that is going to support my expensive software that is no longer made or supported by the programers. If i have to upgrade my non supported software then someone needs to rewrite the software for every new operating system every 2 years or make it open source so people can rewrite the software without consequence. I believe that when something is no longer supported by the company that wrote it should be considered open source or the companies should be required by law to support it until it is released to open source. I am going to do what i can to help make this a law.

The author of this article forgets reality is nothing more than perception
and this persons perception is blinded by "horse blinders" like used on a race tracks.

I'm tempted to record a video of some example usage of my desktop
to show everyone how i have my machine setup.. i love it ! and it doesn't need changing.
For me the start menu is of low priority and is used rarely but i like it there for
a default place for icons to be and to launch those shortcuts i run rarely.
90% of any app i launch is from 6 taskbar icons and i have a dozen folders
pinned to my explorer taskbar icon (most icons customized) and the other
half of the time i use a recreation of the old Quicklaunch i created myself
i figured out how to make it so you only see a small white arrow and that opens
up a set of menu options i have in about 8 categories, one for windows
(the most common used shortcuts) like services, task, manager, windows update etc
and the other options are for 3rd party apps i have installed grouped (menu ordered)
by type.. so my menu has the following groups and none exist in the start menu,
any icons i feel are not needed in the start menu are permanently deleted (performance reasons)
my grouping..


Games
PMP
Audio
Video
Internet
Overclocking
HDD
System

i doubt many people have a setup like mine but just like the author says
i can say the same damn thing.. if you haven't tried MY WAY of doing things
then who is the one spreading misinformation and making uninformed decisions ?

edit:
My Quicklaunch (looks and works like on XP) is easy to backup and restore and maintain.
i have added a folder to Ccleaner to auto wipe dead shortcuts

Edited by I am Not PCyr, Jul 19 2012, 10:08am :

Windows Nashville said,
I want Win 7 start menu. Until then, Win 8 can go to hell.

Win8 start is essentially the Win7 start menu, just FULL SCREEN. And since you can't leave the Win7 Start Menu open anyway, why does it matter to you? The screen flips instantly, there is no redraw or hesitation and in testing is actually faster to flip to the Win8 Start Menu than the Win7 Start menu because of how recent apps and icon caching work.

Just rethink it, you will not be so jaded.

Jose_49 said,

Where are the jump lists?

There aren't any. Metro is all about Microsoft controlling the user experience rather than the user. The ability to customize your own computing environment is now "being jaded", apparently.

Dot Matrix said,

Taskbar.


Two totally different sets of jump lists though. Windows 7 has them in both places (taskbar and Start menu), Windows 8 only has them on the taskbar.

thenetavenger said,

Win8 start is essentially the Win7 start menu, just FULL SCREEN. And since you can't leave the Win7 Start Menu open anyway, why does it matter to you? The screen flips instantly, there is no redraw or hesitation and in testing is actually faster to flip to the Win8 Start Menu than the Win7 Start menu because of how recent apps and icon caching work.

Just rethink it, you will not be so jaded.

Just stop, please guys like you are profundly irritating. People have tried a lot Windows 8. Don't like it. Stop being such annoying.

Be happy with Windows 8

Tommy Wilde said,
One thing for sure... that screen shot is fugly! I don't want to look at something like that every day.

Why on earth would you? Do you just stare at the Start Menu all day?

I guess I can live without the start menu and I'd probably get used to the start screen and not find it that bad, its mostly charms that I don't like.

However never fear if you hate it so much why not completely get rid of metro by using the windows 7 explorer by using a convenient patch and no extra programs. All your windows 8 problems are suddenly solved. http://www.msfn.org/board/topi...s-7-explorer-for-windows-8/

I wonder if MS thinks users who dont like Windows 8 dont use it... I guess that their telemetry data that shows them that people use Windows 8 then install Windows 7 on top of it, its just telemetry errors...

Here is a fact: There is no nesting metaphor in Metro. Even iOS has that. You want to look through your programs? Good luck, EVERY program will be shown at once. There's no hierarchical view.

Frogboy said,
Here is a fact: There is no nesting metaphor in Metro. Even iOS has that. You want to look through your programs? Good luck, EVERY program will be shown at once. There's no hierarchical view.

And that is one of the biggest things I dislike about it. Lack of (even the possibility of) a hierarchical view on the Start screen is an utter failure IMHO. Unless someone can show me some way around this that I haven't been made aware of. That also was one of the things that I absolutely hated about Windows Phone 7 for the few months that I had one.

Another article filled with smug condescension, arrogance, and lies about those of us that don't want Metro. It's most interesting that Neowin is so intent on pushing these views into our face, no platform appears to be getting given to those of the other view. Starting to make me wonder it it's Microsoft Shill central.

Javik said,
Another article filled with smug condescension, arrogance, and lies about those of us that don't want Metro. It's most interesting that Neowin is so intent on pushing these views into our face, no platform appears to be getting given to those of the other view. Starting to make me wonder it it's Microsoft Shill central.

It can only be. The timing on this article is strange. Besides no sane person could reason like this article. Its full of arrogance, reduction ism and falsity.

Javik said,
Another article filled with smug condescension, arrogance, and lies about those of us that don't want Metro. It's most interesting that Neowin is so intent on pushing these views into our face, no platform appears to be getting given to those of the other view. Starting to make me wonder it it's Microsoft Shill central.

Nobody's forcing you to troll here.

Did anyone else catch the snotty shot at Start8? (companies that want you to sell third party software..).

Let's see, I load up Windows 8. Hate forcing me to switch back and forth to Metro. We make Start8 in response and GIVE IT AWAY.

Frogboy said,
Did anyone else catch the snotty shot at Start8? (companies that want you to sell third party software..).

Let's see, I load up Windows 8. Hate forcing me to switch back and forth to Metro. We make Start8 in response and GIVE IT AWAY.

I agree with you. I like the fact that you're giving options of us that want them. Carry on!

Javik said,

I agree with you. I like the fact that you're giving options of us that want them. Carry on!

Careful, it's a hack you know

What a ridiculous article. There have been numerous VIDEO demos of how obnoxious Metro is to use as a DESKTOP experience.

I like Metro for touch but as a PC interface? Terrible.

Unfortunately for the author of the article, it will serve as "claim chowder" when Windows 8 ships and there's a massive backlash.

the screenshot says it best:
It's a mess. having every icon on the new start menu is like having every icon on the desktop. the former is MSFT's approach, the latter is apple. BOTH FAIL. The reason the start menu worked was because it was a treeview/hierarchical menu which could be expanded and collapsed effectively. MSFT's semantic zoom fails to hide enough, and apple's folders hide too much. The solution was...THE START MENU!

neonspark said,
the screenshot says it best:
It's a mess. having every icon on the new start menu is like having every icon on the desktop. the former is MSFT's approach, the latter is apple. BOTH FAIL. The reason the start menu worked was because it was a treeview/hierarchical menu which could be expanded and collapsed effectively. MSFT's semantic zoom fails to hide enough, and apple's folders hide too much. The solution was...THE START MENU!

Quite so. Try selecting "show Administrative Tools" in metro (if you can find that option!). It just dumps them all on the start screen, in a higgeldy piggeldy jumbled mess.
How did MS usability expertise ever sanction this?

gb8080 said,

Quite so. Try selecting "show Administrative Tools" in metro (if you can find that option!). It just dumps them all on the start screen, in a higgeldy piggeldy jumbled mess.
How did MS usability expertise ever sanction this?

you can do that? i just opened them through winkey+r mostly, and otherwise just through control panel. but having them in start screen is handy

gb8080 said,

Quite so. Try selecting "show Administrative Tools" in metro (if you can find that option!). It just dumps them all on the start screen, in a higgeldy piggeldy jumbled mess.
How did MS usability expertise ever sanction this?

Probably because

a). Regular end users don't really need Administrative Tools
b). Those that do, know how to type the name in to pull them up quickly.

briangw said,

Probably because
a). Regular end users don't really need Administrative Tools
b). Those that do, know how to type the name in to pull them up quickly.

And how do you know what name to type? Even if I can remember that the prog I need is called "Computer Management", it is way quicker to pick that from the start menu than it is to type the name. Metro is a big step back in usability.

gb8080 said,

Quite so. Try selecting "show Administrative Tools" in metro (if you can find that option!). It just dumps them all on the start screen, in a higgeldy piggeldy jumbled mess.
How did MS usability expertise ever sanction this?

WIN+X (QuickTask power user's menu from the keyboard) OR right-click the area the Start menu used to live in (brings up the same menu) OR WIN+R (Run box) "control.exe" - that last works back to NT4. Note that only the middle method even involves the mouse - and that the last method works in almost every recent version of Windows.

gb8080 said,

And how do you know what name to type? Even if I can remember that the prog I need is called "Computer Management", it is way quicker to pick that from the start menu than it is to type the name. Metro is a big step back in usability.

And you prove a point that Matthew (and myself) have been trying to make. The last three versions of Windows (and especially Vista and 7) have become so pointing-device biased that the keyboard is treated as an afterthought. The difference between Windows 8 and 7 (or even Vista) is that a lot of that isn't as prevalent (or in-your-face) as Vista, let alone 7. The keyboard is a LOT more usable in Windows 8 as opposed to Windows 7 - even I'm learning more useful keyboard shortcuts all the time. The result - I no longer feel like a slave to my pointing device.

gb8080 said,

And how do you know what name to type? Even if I can remember that the prog I need is called "Computer Management", it is way quicker to pick that from the start menu than it is to type the name. Metro is a big step back in usability.

I haven't tried it, but I assume you type "Administrative Tools" and it opens under settings. Or, if you're like me, you've memorized everything from Active Directory Module for PS to DNS.

"Why Windows 8 Start Menu's Absence is Irrelevant" - it is NOT irrelevant if a significant proportion of informed users regard it as a material factor in their evaluation of Win8.

It may be irrelevant to many particular people who can cope without it. But to conclude it irrelevant to everyone is arrogant and wrong.
It is not irrelevant to me, and many others - not least since I hate the way Metro just dumps a mass of icons on the start screen. There is not even a way to tidy up by organising into folders. Big stupid step back in usability. Listen to users, don't hide head in sand and pretend their views are "irrelevant".

So is this a Neowinian law now?...

If you dislike something.

QED, you have not used something.

??

Not only does the StartScreen fall short of the functional level of the Start Menu in several areas (which of course is irrelevant if an unspecified "too few" other people find such functions useful), some people just find it jarring, for aesthetic reasons. Tiles provide nothing my desktop isn't providing currently.

If I spent yet another marathon session of using it, I'd still be of the same opinion. How un-Neowinian am I...

Mugwump00 said,
So is this a Neowinian law now?...

If you dislike something.

QED, you have not used something.

??

Not only does the StartScreen fall short of the functional level of the Start Menu in several areas (which of course is irrelevant if an unspecified "too few" other people find such functions useful), some people just find it jarring, for aesthetic reasons. Tiles provide nothing my desktop isn't providing currently.

If I spent yet another marathon session of using it, I'd still be of the same opinion. How un-Neowinian am I...


your opinion is yours offcourse. But you seriously compare a fully cluttered desktop with a full metro?
Just comparing my home Windows 7 desktop to my Work Windows 8 PC. (to much crap running on my home PC and me being to lazy to set it all up, and then again with RTM comes )

but trully, the desktop is WAY more cluttered, (I dont even use it at all anymore and stop bothering to clean it up )
http://r-p-m.eu/images/uploads/win7desktop.png
http://r-p-m.eu/images/uploads/win8start.png

I also opened up the start menu for added effect of total JUNK, mess and bloat

So you're basing your comparison on your lack to keep the desktop from clutter? Not to mention that the start screen looks extremely messy...

MFH said,
So you're basing your comparison on your lack to keep the desktop from clutter? Not to mention that the start screen looks extremely messy...

The very fact that you have to invest extra time to de-clutter the Start menu makes it very inefficient out of the box - worse, it's not searchable except via the Mark I Mod 0 human eyeball. The StartScreen, on the other hand, is searchable right out of the box - even better, the same key on the keyboard used to launch it (the Windows logo key, which in 7 and earlier launches the Start menu) makes said StartScreen searchable - and right away. That means absolutely zero time spent organizing the StartScreen - no matter how many applications I have installed. Less time fiddling and puttering means more time spent doing what needs doing. What is so bad about needing to spend less time doing fiddlework?

You can see how religion starts when people are so divided over relatively small changes to an operating system, with people becoming ever more entrenched in their camp and becoming incredibly defensive of their positions.

Personally I dislike some of the changes in Windows 8 but overall I consider it an improvement over Windows 7. The article sums things up pretty well.

I never... never will understand why people do not become the chance to choice. To force someone to use what they don't like should be a no-go today.
I'm sure there were many options to make a metro designed version of the startmenu with some great new features.

There is no reason to justify why somebody like or don't like it. Everyone should get what they want. This is the reason why I'm paying for it.

I don't know why I should pay for Windows 8. Because of "time for something new"?
No!

thekim said,
I never... never will understand why people do not become the chance to choice. To force someone to use what they don't like should be a no-go today.

Wouldn't the third party apps, the 'other' choices?
thekim said,

There is no reason to justify why somebody like or don't like it. Everyone should get what they want. This is the reason why I'm paying for it.

I agree on a certain level but it will be too complicated to 'please everyone'
thekim said,

I don't know why I should pay for Windows 8. Because of "time for something new"?
No!

for the other improvements. the start screen isn't the be-all and end-all feature of Windows 8

When Windows is going to be a product where I have to use third party project to become what I want, then it is time to find a alternativ system.

In this case is nothing complicated to give the choice.

In Windows 8 is no really feature which is worthy to pay for it. For a few new shortcuts? Ribbons? Bad theme?

My metro apps in the preview have stopped working, and Im kind of glad, because I have no desire to use them. They are all ugly. I find my self switching between lots of programs / windows all the time, so for me, it seems a nucenese.

I find finding programs just as easy though, just hit win key, and type. Which is what I did before anyway.

NEXXUS said,
My metro apps in the preview have stopped working, and Im kind of glad, because I have no desire to use them. They are all ugly. I find my self switching between lots of programs / windows all the time, so for me, it seems a nucenese.

I find finding programs just as easy though, just hit win key, and type. Which is what I did before anyway.


I do trully wish they make it possible to run Metro apps windowed... i really can't see nor understand why MS doesnt allow this.

I just love how every Windows 8 fan has the urge to go around insulting people who don't like Windows 8.

Just goes to show the mentality of those people. Grow up.

rpsgc said,
I just love how every Windows 8 fan has the urge to go around insulting people who don't like Windows 8.

So "every" Windows 8 fan goes around insulting people that don't like it?

The reality is that there are many immature and misguided people on both sides. Criticising the maturity of one side without taking into account the behaviour of the other is incredibly unhelpful to a sensible and mature debate, especially when the behaviour of many of the 'haters' is equally obnoxious and considerably more vocal.

theyarecomingforyou said,

So "every" Windows 8 fan goes around insulting people that don't like it?

The reality is that there are many immature and misguided people on both sides. Criticising the maturity of one side without taking into account the behaviour of the other is incredibly unhelpful to a sensible and mature debate, especially when the behaviour of many of the 'haters' is equally obnoxious and considerably more vocal.


And we have a winner!
Its indeed both sides, people have personal preferences. but theres a difference in .. difference (hehe, lack of better term?) and just utterly hating and spreading fud.
Your right its on both sides, but the majority comes from the 'old crowd' of IT "pro's" (as they put it themself) who hate change and just hate to hate. Its different.. oh noooo... and start spreading allot of fud based on the 2minutes they saw and used Win8 themselfs. I have my own personal interest in Win8 (mainly multi-monitor superbar, square edges and build in ISO mounting). But even without that. the changes under the hood are plenty to like Win8. A few registry modifications here and there, download a 3rd party application and BOOM you have your full desktop on Windows 8 as it where Windows 7. And considering this is possible way before RTM already. That even the total boobuser can do this. Should render all Win8 hating arguments totally invalid. (yes it would be nice if MS would support this too, but they're not, deal with it )

I have my start screen set up the way I need it each section is set to 2 columns and only the programs I use most are in there anda few I rarely use but may need at some point. It is so much easier to scroll along, well I sort of swipe the mouse at the bottom and I can be using the program I want in a fraction of the time it used to take with a start menu if i hadn't pinned what I needed.

Most of the criticism about Windows 8 is emotional crap by people who hate change, or are too impatient to give it a good try. When I first tried using Windows 8, it was set up as dual boot with Win 7. Win 8 was a bit disorienting because there was no help built in and I would quickly switch back to Win 7when I got frustrated. Now that I have installed Win 8 as my only OS, I was forced to endure the frustration for a few days; now, I find that I really like it. I agree with the author that Metro serves the same purpose as the Start button, only better. Win 8 is rock solid. I spend 99% of the time on the desktop just as if it was Win 7. Now that I have got over that initial disorientation, I feel like there is no really difference except it is a better Win 7. I like Win 8.

I still find it awkward ot shut the damn thing off.

I have to go searching for it on the right hand side then within another option grrr, atleast with the start meu power off was just there.

Oh Nooooo! There are other people in the world with different opinions!?? But,but...but...how is this possible??! They must be aliens or something... Ahahaha

I think after people use the tablets for a bit, they will install Win 8 on their desktops soon after. It is way to inconvenient to not have it there. I was first annoyed by the simplicity of the Metro style apps, and then I had to wonder to myself what the hell I needed all that complexity for. The new Outlook is awesome, and I think Office will absolutely propel this OS.

It wasn't until after I stopped trying to go back and forth to often between Metro and the desktop that I started to get it. I just installed my regular programs and then started to get to work. Then few weeks went by before I realized that I had only seen the Metro screen a few times to search for stuff. Then I started to play with it here and there, and now I am flying around both interfaces without issue.

My biggest beef is that I cannot Start Search for Outlook contacts still. A pain, but I have to believe it's coming.

I'd much rather have it there then not. And any enthusiast that skips this release, may want to question the level of their enthusiasm. Cmon, $15? $40? Done deal.

I adore the headline. /s
"However, I believe your opinion should be formed by facts, not irrational rhetoric parroted online by so-called power users and companies that want to sell you third-party programs."
This "I know better than you, so shut up and listen to >THE TRUTH<" is trollbaiting at best.

Hell, I tried W8, after I tried it for days, I got to see that there is no need to try it, if you don't like some things on paper, you'll not like them in the actual UX.
(Even more true with the rest of Metro)

I won't even bother going to the full article, because the beginning made very clear what kind of reasoning and argumentation approach the author has chosen.

In the forums, this attitude would maybe even get you a warning, here, it's perfectly fine because of idk.
Ah right...

I wish people gave it a rest already...
Try a little harder to make me like Metro? Call me uneducated on the matters until I'll chime in and forget the plethora of drawbacks?
Jesus Christ, where have we come to know, it's disrupting tech communities everywhere, but sure, fuel the fire!

Ignorant TechSpot author is ignorant.

Glassed Silver:ios

Glassed Silver said,
I adore the headline. /s
"However, I believe your opinion should be formed by facts, not irrational rhetoric parroted online by so-called power users and companies that want to sell you third-party programs."
This "I know better than you, so shut up and listen to >THE TRUTH<" is trollbaiting at best.

Hell, I tried W8, after I tried it for days, I got to see that there is no need to try it, if you don't like some things on paper, you'll not like them in the actual UX.
(Even more true with the rest of Metro)

I won't even bother going to the full article, because the beginning made very clear what kind of reasoning and argumentation approach the author has chosen.

In the forums, this attitude would maybe even get you a warning, here, it's perfectly fine because of idk.
Ah right...

I wish people gave it a rest already...
Try a little harder to make me like Metro? Call me uneducated on the matters until I'll chime in and forget the plethora of drawbacks?
Jesus Christ, where have we come to know, it's disrupting tech communities everywhere, but sure, fuel the fire!

Ignorant TechSpot author is ignorant.

Glassed Silver:ios


doesnt read full article.
complains like a mofo
only uses apple products..

and you dare to say anything about the bias of this article?

want some coffee?
http://theblacksentinel.files....s.com/2008/03/hypocrite.jpg

I liked his article and I have to say that after trying out the RP for a second time, I've really gotten used to the new Start Screen. I can quickly get to the programs I don't have pinned by typing, and the new Window + F key works great for searching for files. I've always run programs like Disk Cleanup, Calculator, Notepad, Regedit straight from typing into the Start menu search and hitting enter. I can do the exact same thing with Windows 8's Start screen, so I'm happy. The only thing I miss still is the cascading Control panel. but you can do the most common things in control panel also from Window + W for settings. Window + Q for apps (Window Q also shows all the apps on the left hand side of the screen).

I do think it should be an option, and something else designed for non-touch devices. But, it's not as absolutely horrible as I originally felt. At least not to me.

Really?
It's people like you who think the world is just a tiny space and conforms to their own view. People like you who are naturally reductionist. It's just a matter of personal opinion. Your view about Windows 8. There's lot of forums around the net of people who actually used it, and their usage is different then yours.

"I can say without a doubt that many people who oppose the Start menu's removal haven't even used Windows 8, yet they don't hesitate to inform you about Metro's inadequacies by listing all the features it's supposedly missing. "

Do you just assumed that the majority of people didn't used Windows 8? Just because you think that's the case?

"However, I believe your opinion should be formed by facts, not irrational rhetoric parroted online by so-called power users and companies that want to sell you third-party programs. The truth is, functionally speaking, Metro is basically identical to the Start menu."

I dont know if you used the start menu more then just launch programs, but the start menu has LOTS of functionalities that start screen lacks off. Recent Programs, recent files, pinned files, etc...

Besides how can you launch calculator and Notepad without switching context.

I know there's people who are ok with it. And that there are workarounds. Like filling the taskbar with 'garbage' (lots of programs) just to have pinned/Recent capabilities and launching programs without having to go to Metro. Or fill your dekstop with a bunch of shortcuts. But if you have to make those compromises then Start Screen is a downgrade TOO ME. At least to me.

Peace and try to think a little more deeper before making posts like those.

I have used Windows 8.. I simply love it on my Tablet, and hate it on my laptop.. the Start Menu being a big part of that.. I find the start screen far more inefficient on a system with a mouse.. So much wasted space, and time, even moreso if you knew how to organize your Start Menu, and didn't just toss everything in there without thinking..

What MS should have done, was leave the option..

I mean they kept a Classic [ 9x/NT4 ] theme in Windows for how long ? Yet they take the start screen and kill the start menu without even a single transition OS..

I'm a fan of Metro, it's a great feature that should be an Option.. But not forced.

Which is better depends on what you do, and how you do it.. for some people and situations, Metro and the Start Screen really do suite them and their needs far better than the classic start menu.. but there are just as many people and cases where this is simply not the case.

Ryoken said,
I have used Windows 8.. I simply love it on my Tablet, and hate it on my laptop.. the Start Menu being a big part of that.. I find the start screen far more inefficient on a system with a mouse.. So much wasted space, and time, even moreso if you knew how to organize your Start Menu, and didn't just toss everything in there without thinking..

What MS should have done, was leave the option..

I mean they kept a Classic [ 9x/NT4 ] theme in Windows for how long ? Yet they take the start screen and kill the start menu without even a single transition OS..

I'm a fan of Metro, it's a great feature that should be an Option.. But not forced.

Which is better depends on what you do, and how you do it.. for some people and situations, Metro and the Start Screen really do suite them and their needs far better than the classic start menu.. but there are just as many people and cases where this is simply not the case.

maybe you should think about your workflow: how often and how do you use the start screen?!

its especially meant for: getting an quick update via live tiles and for searching. for both its great...

great article, says it all. thanks!

win 8 is great for touch AND mouse/keyboard.
the desktop has great improvements over win 7.
Metro is at least great for touch.
so you have an os where people can have best from both worlds - or stick to "their world" if they prefer...

so, win-8-haters, whats the problem? have you really used it?
i guess most of the people who are negative about it havent really used and think win-8 is all about Metro and that you are forced to do so. NO!!! you can stick with your improved Desktop and ignore Metro!!! only once in a while you might have to deal with the new metro-styled start Screen. which is also a great improvement over the start menu.

and overall: no one is forcing anyone to buy or use win 8 after all!!

so, we should all calm down a little bit in this discussion....

yves707 said,
so, win-8-haters, whats the problem? have you really used it?

Is it really that alien to you that some people actually have tried it and just don't like it? In your world, if someone tries something and doesn't find it to be for them, they instantly become a 'hater' - whatever that childish term actually means in the adult world.

So, to answer your question, yes, other people than you have used it. You're not that unique. And hey, they didn't all like it. Get over it.

typical answer....

i didnt say that no one who is negative about win 8 has not used it before....

but what dont you like about it?! dont you like win 7 neither? the enhancements in the traditional desktop?! the start screen replacing the start menu?!? the flat ui design?! honestly want to know...

[quote=yves707 said,]
[quote]
considering Win8's desktop is the same as Win7's desktop (or almost the same)
People can even add back 3d desktop, desktop cubes, multiple desktops and get all the gay goodies from Compiz/KDE4.

But i surely must agree, that most haters just hate for the hating.
Almost EVERYTHING is done faster in Win8, by keyboard, mouse AND touch.
in Win7 its allot of keyboard usage to be fast. as the mouse is bloated and slow, not optimized for mouse movements, easy clicks etc. Barely.
With Win8 however. Doesnt matter how you do it, keyboard or mouse. its both pretty much just as fast (counting moving your hand from mouse to keyboard or typing with 1 hand )
And full screen start menu/screen.. oh boohoo... also a non-issue for those who cry about it. as powerusers who use their system to also monitor or anything. do NOT work on a single screen! and if you do, your a joke of a poweruser. Start screen only covers the screen you activate it on, it only loads apps on the activated screen. And you can easily just pin apps to the sides of each individual screen to be out of the way.
besides the fact that the area our eyes can focus on is the size of a freaking penny.

Must say yves707, i also do wonder what the actual problem is why people hate Win8 so much.
Metro is a welcome addition to make using the OS with a mouse only allot faster, fluent and better. No functionality has been removed that previous windows did have (only changed/improved).
The OS itself has so many advantages over Windows 7 and any other previous windows, it alone is worth upgrading And am not talking about graphical stuff here, but whats under the hood

TheDogsBed said,
if someone tries something and doesn't find it to be for them, they instantly become a 'hater' .

Just as anybody who DOES like something instantly becomes a "fanboy" ?

Some thoughts on the article:

- The guy says many of the people who don't like Metro, never used Windows 8. That's wrong;

- I'm resigned about the existence of Metro in Windows 8, but will forever find it bloated, ugly, unecessary and disruptive of the workflow. For me, it's not a matter of using it during an x or y period of time until I get used to it and start liking it. I will ALWAYS feel that way about it;

- A few seconds of fullscreen interruption is always a fullscreen interruption;

- The author seems to think Metro is only the start screen. It's not. The charms bar, the lock screen and the settings is also Metro. I can NOT use Metro: even if I don't use the start screen, Metro is there when I boot my computer, it's there when want to power off, it's there when I want to update the OS.

Setnom said,
Some thoughts on the article:

- The guy says many of the people who don't like Metro, never used Windows 8. That's wrong;

- I'm resigned about the existence of Metro in Windows 8, but will forever find it bloated, ugly, unecessary and disruptive of the workflow. For me, it's not a matter of using it during an x or y period of time until I get used to it and start liking it. I will ALWAYS feel that way about it;

- A few seconds of fullscreen interruption is always a fullscreen interruption;
.

The author seem to be right in your case, i don't think you've used windows 8 for more than 30 seconds...

You can boot into desktop mode (with a small mod to registry) at this stage and use apps which only run in desktop mode....

I cant believe your freaking out if over having to possibly go into metro for a setting ro something unless your a desktop OS tester who is doing this repetitively hundreds of times a day...How much time do you spend in the start menu??? seriously how long we talking and if its more than like 2 mins in any session then you need to have a think about wtf your doing on your pc dude...

now if you would like to have metro apps to use and want them on your desktop then your going to have to suffer a little bit because no doubt over time these will become more and more prevalent with less and less desktop only support being put out by developers...looks at office 2013 one note, metro version and desktop version...

finally, windows 7 isnt going anywhere anytime soon so if your really really really losing sleep and having nightmares regarding metro then you can live with 7 (an awesome OS) till they ready to start talking about windows 9...or you can run along to another platform and play in that sandbox....

at the end of the day if you look beyond the surface and look at why and how MS has developed win 8 youll see its the only logical way to span platforms, CPU's form factors in ANY REAL WAY....no no IOS apps running on iPad only with no support of MacOS is not a real solution....

engii said,


You can boot into desktop mode (with a small mod to registry) at this stage and use apps which only run in desktop mode....

lol, registry mode... Nice a OS where you have to registry hack it.

duddit2 said,

who mentioned you have to do this? You can do it if you want the OS to behave in a way that it wasn't designed to behave and you don't like/wont give the changes a good chance.

Oh nearly forgot, there is another option, stick with windows 7? Or go to OSx? or STFU?

Windows 7 for now. STFU to you too. Thank you.

engii said,
The author seem to be right in your case, i don't think you've used windows 8 for more than 30 seconds...

I've been using Windows 8 since the CP on my laptop. It's there as my main OS, and been using it constantly. You're yet another person that assumes that if people don't like Metro, they haven't used it enough. Stop making those assumptions!!

I especifically wrote that no matter how long I use or will use it, I will always feel that way. Wasn't I clear on that?

Is an analogy easier to understand? Fine.
I don't like mustard on my hot dog. I don't like the taste, I don't like the texture, I don't even like the color. You're saying that if I eat enough hot dogs with mustard, after a while I will begin to like mustard.
No, I will not! I don't like it and never will like mustard.

The same with Metro and the start screen. Was I clear?

engii said,
You can boot into desktop mode (with a small mod to registry) at this stage and use apps which only run in desktop mode....

That's a work-around, it's not good enough and people should expect more from their OS: at least an on/off option.

engii said,
I cant believe your freaking out if over having to possibly go into metro for a setting ro something unless your a desktop OS tester who is doing this repetitively hundreds of times a day...How much time do you spend in the start menu??? seriously how long we talking and if its more than like 2 mins in any session then you need to have a think about wtf your doing on your pc dude...

Well, I use the start menu for searches, to launch pinned programs and pinned files, and the best of it is that it doesn't even occupy a fifth of the screen. So, I can still watch a video, have the browser open, navigate through the start menu, without it covering up all the screen. That's specially important when I have a video running to the side and want to launch a program pinned to the start menu. I don't loose visibility of the video I'm watching. It may not seem important for you, but it is for me.

tsi said,

lol, registry mode... Nice a OS where you have to registry hack it.

since most of those who are complaining are 'power users', I don't get why a registry hack will be too complicated

grayscale said,

since most of those who are complaining are 'power users', I don't get why a registry hack will be too complicated

I am not saying is difficult, but just the idea that if you have to, its because something is wrong to begin with...

tsi said,

I am not saying is difficult, but just the idea that if you have to, its because something is wrong to begin with...


The thing is, it's not wrong. It's just some users do not like it. So there is nothing wrong. It is how they implemented it and those who dislike it has the option which is in this case, a registry hack.

tsi said,

lol, registry mode... Nice a OS where you have to registry hack it.


even has 2 likes, really.

Theres a whole kernel family thats dedicated to hacking everything yourself.
Hack your own GFX drivers, wifi drivers, sound drivers, your own desktop manager... pretty much anything.

In windows you have to go a little bit outside the box by changing a small registry entry and its a negative thing?? gimme a break man you just lost all credibility good day (your funny tho)

Shadowzz said,

even has 2 likes, really.

Theres a whole kernel family thats dedicated to hacking everything yourself.
Hack your own GFX drivers, wifi drivers, sound drivers, your own desktop manager... pretty much anything.

In windows you have to go a little bit outside the box by changing a small registry entry and its a negative thing?? gimme a break man you just lost all credibility good day (your funny tho)

He's saying the fact to simply go to the traditional Windows desktop you have to go out of your way to change a small registry entry is not a good thing. Microsoft knows that almost 50 percent of its consumers are for metro and 50 percent are against. Therefore, it would only be sensible that an option be provided to boot directly to the desktop. But now that they have invested so much into Metro they cannot turn back, and are basically forcing it upon their users. Also I'm sure that they know that those who are aware of the ability to change the registry to enter directly into the desktop will do so, but most will not be able to, not have the time to, not even bother to upgrade to Windows 8 and so on. I'm not a metro hater, I do not find it "that" annoying (its OK, could have done without), but I still feel for those who so strongly oppose it, an option should be available.

Its like iOS you have to jailbreak to get apps not in the app store. But in Android you have a choice. Microsoft is making a mistake by not providing a choice.

"However, I believe your opinion should be formed by facts, not irrational rhetoric parroted online by so-called power users and companies that want to sell you third-party programs."

So the author believes only he is the one with an opinion formed by facts while others are just parroting online nonsense? Ah, so that is why we should read this article. This is the one true article on the start menu. Ah, I get it now.

TheDogsBed said,

So the author believes only he is the one with an opinion formed by facts while others are just parroting online nonsense? Ah, so that is why we should read this article. This is the one true article on the start menu. Ah, I get it now.

No, of course not. However, he is right. There are tons of people spouting nonsense. Lies.

Don't believe me? Look at the comments on a CNN article about Windows 8, or comments on YouTube videos about Windows 8, or Microsoft Facebook posts about Windows 8.

Most of the Windows 8 hate in these places are based on lies, not fact. It's often obviously false, but people believe it.

He is not right! they fracked the Start Menu. Search for windows update and nothing shows up.. and if you search for settings you first have to click settings.. they let's not talk about all the double options and double apps. 2 windows update, 2 mouse, 2 regional settings, 2 IE's.. retarded in my own opinion.. I`ll wait and see if we can hack ourselfs the start menu back and then start using.

Qiuness said,
He is not right! they fracked the Start Menu. Search for windows update and nothing shows up.. and if you search for settings you first have to click settings.. they let's not talk about all the double options and double apps. 2 windows update, 2 mouse, 2 regional settings, 2 IE's.. retarded in my own opinion.. I`ll wait and see if we can hack ourselfs the start menu back and then start using.

Riiiight, the only thing is that's not an issue with the start screen, its an issue with the fact that W8 isn't finished and there are multiple places for items at the moment. Search just finds things, if there are 2 of them it doesn't matter if search is placed on the old style start menu or new style start screen. The only legitimate argument I can agree with re the start screen > start menu is the searching lacking an all option (or option to set it to default to an all section), but its weak tbh. I find I'm using search less and less anyway now I can easily pin far more apps to the start screen than I could possibly have done in the start menu (this is apps that don't live on taskbar as well, as that's where my daily stuff goes).

Qiuness said,
He is not right! they fracked the Start Menu. Search for windows update and nothing shows up.. and if you search for settings you first have to click settings.. they let's not talk about all the double options and double apps. 2 windows update, 2 mouse, 2 regional settings, 2 IE's.. retarded in my own opinion.. I`ll wait and see if we can hack ourselfs the start menu back and then start using.

I agree about the Metro-counterparts of settings as annoying since somehow, they are prioritized on search. But as for the 'extra click', you're using your keyboard to type whatever you want to search, so while you're on your keyboard, just use win+w to search directly on settings instead of just the winkey.

rfirth said,

No, of course not. However, he is right. There are tons of people spouting nonsense. Lies.

Don't believe me? Look at the comments on a CNN article about Windows 8, or comments on YouTube videos about Windows 8, or Microsoft Facebook posts about Windows 8.

Most of the Windows 8 hate in these places are based on lies, not fact. It's often obviously false, but people believe it.

What lies?

That people outright hate Win8?

I've posted it in the past, but I'll do so again. IT Pro here at a firm that has been previewing Win8 with some of our clients. A large majority of them do not like it.

And quite frankly again as an IT Pro, I have a like/hate relationship with Win8 because our Help Desk gets constant calls from these people we left instructions/guides with who constantly call them asking about thing similar to the complaints left on forums such as these that I am assuming that you believe are lies.

rfirth said,

No, of course not. However, he is right. There are tons of people spouting nonsense. Lies.

Don't believe me? Look at the comments on a CNN article about Windows 8, or comments on YouTube videos about Windows 8, or Microsoft Facebook posts about Windows 8.

Most of the Windows 8 hate in these places are based on lies, not fact. It's often obviously false, but people believe it.

And when those "lies" gel with the same things people who HAVE been using Windows 8 since RP came out? Are they still lies, or are they truths that you don't agree with?

Liking Metro is VERY much a subjective issue and one persons truth will be another persons lie. For me, the problem with the Start Menu itself, but in the headache inducing way you switch from Metro apps to Desktop apps. Even turning the animation off, it's still eye jarring. I also hate the default behaviour of launching a full screen app just to play an MP3. Talk about a complete waste of screen real estate.

Condere said,

What lies?

That people outright hate Win8?

I've posted it in the past, but I'll do so again. IT Pro here at a firm that has been previewing Win8 with some of our clients. A large majority of them do not like it.

And quite frankly again as an IT Pro, I have a like/hate relationship with Win8 because our Help Desk gets constant calls from these people we left instructions/guides with who constantly call them asking about thing similar to the complaints left on forums such as these that I am assuming that you believe are lies.


People are so generally biased about hating Windows 8 its not even funny.
With Win8 you should get allot less calls. As even 90year olds can use Metro without much trouble. Its ALLOT easier then a cluttered desktop, with a seperate start menu, with multiple menu's within that same menu. then adding even more menu's to the applications..
its menus menus menus menus and more menus everywhere. With Win8. its basically 1 big menu, with 1 menu on the side. from countless of menus, back to just 2.. major advantage for people looking for their crap on the PC.

Also, you can lock out desktop, pin anything they are allowed to use to start menu... done?
Its also allot easier and allot less work on the group policies to lock down the system the way YOU want it.

grayscale said,

I agree about the Metro-counterparts of settings as annoying since somehow, they are prioritized on search. But as for the 'extra click', you're using your keyboard to type whatever you want to search, so while you're on your keyboard, just use win+w to search directly on settings instead of just the winkey.


OK, I'll just use Win+W. I'll add that shortcut to the at least three other shortcuts that have been mentioned just in this article's comments.

Reading about Win 8; I can't count the amount of times I've seen people say things like "No, it doesn't take longer. You simply use <insert some obscure key combination>". I feel like I'll need a cheat sheet just to use this os.

geoken said,


OK, I'll just use Win+W. I'll add that shortcut to the at least three other shortcuts that have been mentioned just in this article's comments.

Reading about Win 8; I can't count the amount of times I've seen people say things like "No, it doesn't take longer. You simply use <insert some obscure key combination>". I feel like I'll need a cheat sheet just to use this os.


muscle memory (well, is it the right term?)
and there are only three. Q, W, and F. You don't even have to remember F since F->File. The rest of the keyboard shortcuts are fairly easy to remember once you start using them.

rfirth said,

No, of course not. However, he is right. There are tons of people spouting nonsense. Lies.

Don't believe me? Look at the comments on a CNN article about Windows 8, or comments on YouTube videos about Windows 8, or Microsoft Facebook posts about Windows 8.

Most of the Windows 8 hate in these places are based on lies, not fact. It's often obviously false, but people believe it.

Lies? Facts? It's more of an opinion, wouldn't you say?

yazb123 said,

Lies? Facts? It's more of an opinion, wouldn't you say?

None of you are listening to me. People are spouting lies. I'm not talking about opinions. You are entitled to your opinions.

I'm not talking about "I hate metro" or "metro sucks" or whatever. I'm talking about facts and lies. A lot of people have only a fuzzy idea about Windows 8, heard something, misinterpreted it, and pass it along.

It's ok to not like Windows 8. Just have a reason based on something real, not something that isn't even true.

I guess the real problem is that it's hard to tell the difference between ignorance and people just trolling.

FoxieFoxie said,
Once you install Windows 8 + Outlook 2013 with full screen mode, you will never go back, srs

Correction: Windows 8 PC + Windows 8 Tablet + Windows Phone 7/8 + Skydrive + Office 2013. You will never go back

FoxieFoxie said,
Once you install Windows 8 + Outlook 2013 with full screen mode, you will never go back, srs

Why? I don't use apps in full screen mode right now, why would Win 8 make me want to do this? Here at work my monitor is only 1280x1040 and I'm still using outlook in windowed mode.

The new Start Screen lacks "most used" programs and the search lacks an "All" option (not the file, settings, apps).
Whhitout those, the Start Screen is a step back from the tradiitional Start Menu.

impar said,
The new Start Screen lacks "most used" programs and the search lacks an "All" option (not the file, settings, apps).
Whhitout those, the Start Screen is a step back from the tradiitional Start Menu.

True, but it has something better than "most used' programs list... it allows you to pin 100's of apps, if you desire, to the start screen and organize them however you like. It allows you to organize the tiles into groups and name those groups. The old start menu had, what, 10?

The old start menu was nowhere near this powerful.

impar said,
The new Start Screen lacks "most used" programs and the search lacks an "All" option (not the file, settings, apps).

The most used programs list is actually very poor for usability, as the results keep changing and you can often lose track of a particular program. With Metro newly installed apps are added to the Start screen and users decide whether or not they should remain there and how they should be arranged. It is a much more consistent experience that gives users more control.

impar said,
The new Start Screen lacks "most used" programs and the search lacks an "All" option (not the file, settings, apps).
Whhitout those, the Start Screen is a step back from the tradiitional Start Menu.

I agree on the search option. I wish they had just left win+q as 'app search' when on desktop mode and leave the 'winkey' as search on 'all'

rfirth said,

True, but it has something better than "most used' programs list... it allows you to pin 100's of apps, if you desire, to the start screen and organize them however you like. It allows you to organize the tiles into groups and name those groups. The old start menu had, what, 10?

The old start menu was nowhere near this powerful.


10 most used list. pinned start menu went upto 20
other then that, i agree

rfirth said,

True, but it has something better than "most used' programs list... it allows you to pin 100's of apps, if you desire, to the start screen and organize them however you like. It allows you to organize the tiles into groups and name those groups. The old start menu had, what, 10?

The old start menu was nowhere near this powerful.


The current start menu also allows you to pin apps. These apps will behave as you prefer and never change position. They also have the added benefit of providing jumplists. For example, I have steam pinned to the start menu and when I hover over it the right pane changes to a list of games that I could directly launch as well as shortcuts directly into various parts of Steam like friends and Store).

I would argue that the old start menu's ability to pin apps and have those apps actually contain sub-menus is a more powerful feature than flat grouping and naming.

I think that it is such a different interface to the previous versions of Windows that people automatically hate it, without trying it.

I've been using Windows 8 for a few days now and I personally don't like it. It's not intuitive on a Desktop. It took me a while to figure out how to do the basic things, like minimise a window and get back to the start screen.

It feels like Microsoft should've tried to make the Metro interface something like an additional part of the traditional Desktop. Instead they've made what seems like two difference screens entirely that can't really interact with each other.

I was really hyped when it was announced that there would be cheap upgrade options. I was considering purchasing Windows 8 but now I'm not so sure. It feels like there is something fundamentally wrong when I have to learn my way around when the OS should be "showing" me how to work it (at least with a mouse). I'll bet that it all makes sense on a touch screen.

Tanoru said,
I think that it is such a different interface to the previous versions of Windows that people automatically hate it, without trying it.

I've been using Windows 8 for a few days now and I personally don't like it. It's not intuitive on a Desktop. It took me a while to figure out how to do the basic things, like minimise a window and get back to the start screen.

It feels like Microsoft should've tried to make the Metro interface something like an additional part of the traditional Desktop. Instead they've made what seems like two difference screens entirely that can't really interact with each other.

I was really hyped when it was announced that there would be cheap upgrade options. I was considering purchasing Windows 8 but now I'm not so sure. It feels like there is something fundamentally wrong when I have to learn my way around when the OS should be "showing" me how to work it (at least with a mouse). I'll bet that it all makes sense on a touch screen.

In the final release there will be some form of guide or video on first boot (possibly on first logon for each user) that can be dismissed if you wish but would have shown you the basics (mainly using the corners and dragging from the top etc.)

Tanoru said,
...
It feels like Microsoft should've tried to make the Metro interface something like an additional part of the traditional Desktop. Instead they've made what seems like two difference screens entirely that can't really interact with each other....

This is what I think it will boil down to for many.

In a Utopian world, Win8 would have had the Start button still on the desktop, and the Start screen would slide out over the screen.

With Win9, MS would then say, "You know that Start Screen we introduced with Win8? Well we are know calling it the Metro Start screen, and developers can now create applications that run directly within the Start screen." With that the Start button goes bye bye, and Metro would probably end up be a lot more accepted pre-release.

In reality, MS doesn't have the time to ease users into the sudden GUI changes and IMO it is going to be a case study into whether or not peoples initial reactions will sink Win8.

Yeah, I'm not sure why people have a problem with the new Start menu. At least for me, I never really used it, as it is much much easier to tap the WIN key and partly-type the program name, then click on it, instead of searching for it. It's the same in Windows 8, so no change.

There is no winning: if MS releases an OS without huge changes and mostly under-the-hood improvements, people will cry that it is just a service pack for Version N-1. If MS releases an OS with huge changes that are obvious in daily use, people will cry that MS shouldn't go fix things that aren't broken.

Graphically describing these people is one of the few applications that I've found for Venn diagrams.

I doubt the people who are criticising the lack of a start button haven't used it.

It a major issue not having it there AND that's based on fact - I HAVE used it and its useless. Its been said a million times before - this is nothing more than an attempt to install a phone/tablet operating system on a desktop and that is a ludicrous thing to do.

dvb2000 said,
I doubt the people who are criticising the lack of a start button haven't used it.

It a major issue not having it there AND that's based on fact - I HAVE used it and its useless. Its been said a million times before - this is nothing more than an attempt to install a phone/tablet operating system on a desktop and that is a ludicrous thing to do.

Metro Start Screen offers over 8 times as many programs to you at a glance then the start menu, as well as being able to launch folders and programs by pressing WinKey and typing. As the article said, if you're launching something from start menu chances are you're moving away to a different program anyway and even if you are going to use two apps side-by-side, it's not like it's feasible to have one eye on your current app and one eye on the start menu - you'll actively be looking on the start menu which means it's no less distracting then the start menu.

The Teej said,
Metro Start Screen offers over 8 times as many programs to you at a glance then the start menu

You mean "just like" when people add their own apps to the desktop - rather than having some microsoft defined apps clogging up the screen?

trouble is there is no easy way to find the programs or apps/setting that you actually want (search is NOT a solution - i dont want to "search" I just want them to be there without all the other rubbish), or even to "simply" shutdown.

dvb2000 said,

You mean "just like" when people add their own apps to the desktop - rather than having some microsoft defined apps clogging up the screen?

trouble is there is no easy way to find the programs or apps/setting that you actually want (search is NOT a solution - i dont want to "search" I just want them to be there without all the other rubbish), or even to "simply" shutdown.


What do you actually mean with "Microsoft defined apps"? You have the freedom to pin/unpin whichever pinnable thing on the start screen.

Finding programs? You can pin a large number of programs on the start screen so you your frequently used apps are there, easily accessible. For the rarely used apps, of course you have to use either search or the 'all apps'.

Find a setting? If you're not a keyboard person, which I get from not wanting to use the search, then the control panel is easily accessible from explorer. The admin options are easily accessible by right clicking the lower right corner of the screen.

I agree with the more-clicks-to-shutdown, though.

S_Herbie said,

Just push the power button on the PC...

Yeah... After years and years of telling people not to do that, they're now telling you to do that. Smart move...

FloatingFatMan said,

Yeah... After years and years of telling people not to do that, they're now telling you to do that. Smart move...

They told you not to flip the switch at the back of a desktop or hold down the power button to force a shutdown. Pressing the power button and letting go either initiates a sleep or a shutdown, based on what the user has set.

Relativity_17 said,
There is no winning: if MS releases an OS without huge changes and mostly under-the-hood improvements, people will cry that it is just a service pack for Version N-1. If MS releases an OS with huge changes that are obvious in daily use, people will cry that MS shouldn't go fix things that aren't broken.

Graphically describing these people is one of the few applications that I've found for Venn diagrams.

It's not that there is something wrong with making big changes, those changes just have to be good and improve usability. For example the improved taskbar in Win7 was gladly welcomed by most.

By comparison the new Start screen doesn't make life easier. It's more difficult to select things on a high res monitor because the thing spans the whole screen (more mouse movement required). Unlike the article, I'd say it doesn't improve multitasking but instead disrupts your workflow by covering everything you were using before. Also as it is, legacy apps are reduced to small icons making them harder to find than they should be.

Then there is rest of Metro and that's mostly just touchscreen oriented stuff with poor usability.

That said, the old Start menu was **** and had to go too. Or at least needed big changes.

mrp04 said,

They told you not to flip the switch at the back of a desktop or hold down the power button to force a shutdown. Pressing the power button and letting go either initiates a sleep or a shutdown, based on what the user has set.

Everyone I tell to do this holds the button in oddly. I'm like WOAH WOAH wait! just tap it don't hold it in! I guess they do it because they think the computer should instantly switch off...

mrp04 said,

They told you not to flip the switch at the back of a desktop or hold down the power button to force a shutdown. Pressing the power button and letting go either initiates a sleep or a shutdown, based on what the user has set.


As much as I usually disagree with Floating Fat Man, he does have a point on this. While most posters here realize the difference in what you are describing, most average users would see those as being the same thing.

S_Herbie said,

Just push the power button on the PC...

WTF? How is this even an issue? Just do Alt+F4 on the desktop and you will be prompted with the shutdown menu. EASY

este said,

WTF? How is this even an issue? Just do Alt+F4 on the desktop and you will be prompted with the shutdown menu. EASY

I think the people who are really complaining are the people who are VERY used to doing things in a certain way, even though there are already a multitude of different ways to do this said task. I usually shutdown via the start menu but it really isn't /that/ hard to change your behaviour.

YanksOnTop said,

People who are not computer savvy will have a problem with this. While I know alt-f4, im pretty sure my mother and your mother as well dont know about that. The OS is not just for the geek. Its for a lot of people.


But they do know that big fat button no the front of the pc? or somewhere above the keyboard of the laptop?
Its really a non-issue to argue about that it takes a 3 clicks to shutdown (dont forget. Windows 7 took 3 clicks before SP1 aswell to initiate a shutdown)
There isnt even ANY change. Its 3 clicks vs Windows 7 pre-SP1 3 clicks. And now its 2 clicks for windows 7... Such a MAJOR DISADVANTAGE

YanksOnTop said,
The metro start screen reminds me of a messy desktop. Its really not that different from slapping 100 icons on the desktop and aligning them. I just dont like it. I personally like the start button and did use it alot.

and for people like you, there are 3rd party applications to bring back the Win7 within Win8

Shadowzz said,

But they do know that big fat button no the front of the pc? or somewhere above the keyboard of the laptop?
Its really a non-issue to argue about that it takes a 3 clicks to shutdown (dont forget. Windows 7 took 3 clicks before SP1 aswell to initiate a shutdown)
There isnt even ANY change. Its 3 clicks vs Windows 7 pre-SP1 3 clicks. And now its 2 clicks for windows 7... Such a MAJOR DISADVANTAGE


and for people like you, there are 3rd party applications to bring back the Win7 within Win8

Pre sp1 took 3 clicks and a lot of people complained (enough to make Microsoft change it). I don't see how pointing out it took 3 clicks before sp1 really strengthens your point since it's obvious that this process generated enough complaints for MS to go and change it.

grayscale said,

I agree with the more-clicks-to-shutdown, though.

this is because computers are becoming always on more.. how often do people actually shutdown their laptops when they are at home instead of just closing them.. how often do people shutdown their ipads instead of just letting it sleep..

grayscale said,

What do you actually mean with "Microsoft defined apps"? You have the freedom to pin/unpin whichever pinnable thing on the start screen.

Finding programs? You can pin a large number of programs on the start screen so you your frequently used apps are there, easily accessible. For the rarely used apps, of course you have to use either search or the 'all apps'.

Find a setting? If you're not a keyboard person, which I get from not wanting to use the search, then the control panel is easily accessible from explorer. The admin options are easily accessible by right clicking the lower right corner of the screen.

I agree with the more-clicks-to-shutdown, though.

Try searching for "Device Manager"... how the hell there's nowhere to find this when in Win7 comes right up in search? Smart people these M$ employees... they really have an eye for details... Trying to get access to my secondary HDD, I always get the error that I'm not the owner and ****... christ, talking about security... win8 really makes a desktop user a living hell. Let's hope that the final version will be as bugless as possible. But for a power user really there's no reason to upgrade from Win7, unless you want to be cool and groovy and up to date to the latest Windows OS.

FloatingFatMan said,

Yeah... After years and years of telling people not to do that, they're now telling you to do that. Smart move...

Wow, 1985 called, they want your to move on...

Since ACPI, the power button tells the OS to shutdown, and can be configured to hibernate, sleep, lock, etc.

Do this now to see, right click 'Taskbar' and hit Properties - Start Menu Tab - Power button action - Notice all it can do...

If you want more options for Lid/Sleep Buttons then (Hit WinKey type power), you can configure this and the sleep button, lid, etc depending on your hardware.


BTW Microsoft hasn't told people NOT to hit the Power Button since ACPI became popular back in the late 90s. As even Win9x supported OS shutdown from the non-physical power button.

Think for a second, when it isn't a hard power loss, it is like a UPS that tells the OS it is losing power, and the OS gracefully shuts down, which NT 3.x has always supported, as it is and was important in server environments.


Additional note, with NT aka not-Win9x, hitting the power or yanking the power cord is rather eventless for the OS, as only Applications lose data. NTFS journaling and other redundancies ensure Windows NT even in the 3.1-4.0 days was harmless 99.99% of the time if using NTFS and not FAT.

dpcdpc11 said,

Try searching for "Device Manager"... how the hell there's nowhere to find this when in Win7 comes right up in search?

It's on Settings. Searching using winkey+w and it will show up right away. A bit of learning curve but not a deal breaker.

dpcdpc11 said,

Try searching for "Device Manager"... how the hell there's nowhere to find this when in Win7 comes right up in search? Smart people these M$ employees... they really have an eye for details... Trying to get access to my secondary HDD, I always get the error that I'm not the owner and ****... christ, talking about security... win8 really makes a desktop user a living hell. Let's hope that the final version will be as bugless as possible. But for a power user really there's no reason to upgrade from Win7, unless you want to be cool and groovy and up to date to the latest Windows OS.

Three different ways to access Device Manager (and one of them involves Control Panel) - right-click on Computer in File Explorer and select Manage (while this brings up Device Manager's big brother Computer Manager, Device Manager itself is contained within as a sub-branch). WIN+X (QuickTask power-user's menu - Device Manager is listed separately, as is Control Panel). WIN+R (Run box) control.exe (this is identical to Windows 7 and earlier). WIN stands for the Windows logo key - it's been on a lot of keyboards since Windows 9x, but it started with the original Microsoft Natural Keyboard, which launched with Windows for Workgroups; this same key also launches the StartScreen-based Universal Search, while the one at the Charm bar (WIN+C) is a file-based search. The Start Menu hasn't been searchable except by the old Mark I Mod 0 human eyeball - despite Index Server being part of Windows since Windows 2000 Professional.

YanksOnTop said,
The metro start screen reminds me of a messy desktop. Its really not that different from slapping 100 icons on the desktop and aligning them. I just dont like it. I personally like the start button and did use it alot.

damn straight i've said that alot around here and i'm ALWAYS ignored lol
these desktop icon whores go silent real quick !

icons on my desktop are forbidden I have NONE period.
and i've had my desktop like that a goood 8 or 9 years or so
and i've worked on a lot of personal AND corporate computers
and they ALWAYS 99% of the time have sea of random garbage there
so what the hell are these type of people gonna think of Windows 8 ? lol
of course their gonna like it.