Valve co-founder: Windows 8 is a "catastrophe"

Windows 8 has certainly generated a lot of debate among past and current Windows users. A person who has had some experience with actually creating a version of Windows is Gabe Newell. Newell worked at Microsoft for 13 years on the first three versions of Windows before departing the company to co-found Valve, makers of best selling games like the Half-Life, Counter-Strike, Left 4 Dead and Portal series, not to mention the Steam PC game download store.

AllThingsD.com reports that during a dinner speech on Tuesday at the Casual Connect conference in Seattle, Newell discussed a number of topics. One of them was Windows 8, which Newell clearly doesn't care for at all. He stated:

I think Windows 8 is a catastrophe for everyone in the PC space. I think we’ll lose some of the top-tier PC/OEMs, who will exit the market. I think margins will be destroyed for a bunch of people. If that’s true, then it will be good to have alternatives to hedge against that eventuality.

Newell apparently didn't go into detail on exactly why he thinks Windows 8 would be, in his words, a "catastrophe". However, he seemed to hint that his views on Windows 8 were part of the reason that the company is working to port Steam and its games to the Linux platform. He states, "We want to make it as easy as possible for the 2,500 games on Steam to run on Linux as well. It’s a hedging strategy."

Newell also talked about a number of other subjects, including the future of interacting with devices. He believes that the current trend for touch screens will be supplanted by something else in a relatively short time period. He said:

This is super nerdy, and you can tease us years from now, but as it turns out, your tongue is one of the best mechanical systems to your brain, but it’s disconcerting to have the person sitting next you go blah, blah, blah, blah. I don’t think tongue input will happen, but I do think we will have bands on our wrists, and you’ll be doing something with your hands, which are really expressive.

Source: AllThingsD.com

Report a problem with article
Previous Story

Windows Store in Windows 8 now has 400 apps

Next Story

New York Times dumps support for Blackberry app

189 Comments

Commenting is disabled on this article.

Personally I think anything that spreads the reach of the games industry can't be bad. I don't believe they will abandon Windows anytime soon as their majority are on windows, but certainly moving towards cross platform (Windows/OS X/Linux) can't be a bad thing regardless.

Windows 8 might not be the success everyone wants it to be, or maybe it will. The point is, if Gabe want's his developers to spend some time porting Steam to Linux, then in my eyes, this is good for everyone. More options on more platforms = more choice for everyone.

I'm all for Windows 8 flopping.

Microsoft (along with other companies *cough* Google *cough*) are losing focus of what made them great. It's disappointing and I wouldn't mind seeing them start sinking.

The thing that got me after reading this on the BBC was this part:

"When you are playing a game, you are trying to think about creating value for other players, so the line between content player and creator is really fuzzy."

One harbinger of this future was perhaps found, he said, in the success of one Team Fortress player in Kansas who was earning $150,000 (£97,000) a year making virtual hats.

"This isn't about video games," he said. "It's about thinking about goods and services in a digital world."

£100,000 from making virtual hats?

Someone needs to disconnect Gabe from his BBQ-Sauce IV line - the pure fat being pumped into his bloodstream is clogging the blood vessels in his brain.

He is making public statements like this - mind you, with NO backing data provided - to puff-up his own company's OS X development work with Steam for OS X. Nothing more, regardless of his side-comment about OEMs.

Remember these salient points: Gabe Newell is as involved in actual coding and the dev process at Valve now as he was in Corporate Management when he and I were in the Windows Division (although I was only an STE and he was a Program Manager) during the Windows NT days...which means ZERO. He's the CEO of Valve, whose job it is to make the shareholders (regardless of whether they be public or private) feel good about the company. They are usually taken to puffery, flattery, and double-speak; hence, if you don't trust what Steve Ballmer says about Microsoft you should trust what Gabe Newell says about Valve with just as much incredulity. How long has Valve been promising "Episode 3"?

Is he feeling threatened by The Windows Store? I would, if I were him. Is he afraid that it's going to marginalize Steam's distribution system? I'm pretty sure of that. This has nothing to do with "top-tier" PC OEMs leaving the market, and here's why:

Let's take a look at the list of "top-tier" PC OEMs:

HP
DELL
ACER
SONY
ASUS
FUJITSU
GIGABYTE
LENOVO
NEC
MSI
PANASONIC
TOSHIBA

Every single one of these companies has either announced or commtted to *FULL* Windows 8 Support or even Windows 8-specific Products to be released within the next 6 to 9 months. Which of these OEMs does Gabe see "leaving"?

Gabe has been absolutely DEAD WRONG before: remember when he said that the PS3 Development process was "a waste of everybody's time" and "a disaster on many levels...", and then did a turn-about and said that "PS3 version of Portal 2 would be the best console version"?

Wake up, Sheeple!

ScottKin said,
<snip>

I have never read such a load of utter rubbish in my life, allow me to point out the major flaws.

A) Valve is a private company, and as such does not have a CEO or shareholders
B) Gabe is an active developer in the Linux cabal: (Desk with ball and oversized screen is his) http://i.imgur.com/DSanwl.jpg
C) This has nothing to do with OS X.
D) Valve never promised squat about EP3, you've fallen victim to fancruft.
E) It took Sony handing over the keys to the system to get Valve to change their minds on the PS3.

You call people sheeple, but it's clear you're living in your own delusion. Wake up, sheep.

Let's just be honest here, if you think 8's Apple-wannabe App store is any possible competition for Steam you're either delusional or an utter retard.

Are any of you actually gamers, or are you just tear-gushing fanboys? Microsoft is the company that gave PC gaming GfwL, one of the most hated clients ever; they're also the company that charges stupidly large sums of money (~$10,000 each) for post-release patches.

Do you really think Microsoft's store is going to stand a chance in this segment? Spoiler: It won't.

As a consumer I am happy to see Valve taking this issue seriously, having options for gaming besides Windows would be awesome as I am most unhappy with the direction Windows 8 is taking. Losing platform exclusivity for Steam would be a huge blow to Microsoft and it would almost certainly prompt other AAA+ game vendors to also look at Linux as a viable alternative to Windows.

Steam, without Windows, would be nothing... they can only have respect for Microsoft. You don't like it? Stop selling game on Windows right now... Why they don't do that?

fenderMarky said,
Steam, without Windows, would be nothing... they can only have respect for Microsoft. You don't like it? Stop selling game on Windows right now... Why they don't do that?

You mean like Microsoft? It's funny that Microsoft has gaming on PC locked into Windows and DirectX, but themselves have abandoned the platform. Talk about thankful to the gamers now locked up in Windows.

Windows 8 is the next step, not only lock gamers, but lock everybody. Windows is turning into an extremely closed platform where Microsoft is going to dictate everything.

Buio said,
Windows 8 is the next step, not only lock gamers, but lock everybody. Windows is turning into an extremely closed platform where Microsoft is going to dictate everything.
Stop saying BS plz. Windows 8 isn't a closed platform, you can run anything on it like previous edition of Windows.

fenderMarky said,
Steam, without Windows, would be nothing..

Windows without support from 3rd party companies would be close to nothing either. Take all the exclusive third party Windows apps and Windows games and put them exclusively on OSX tomorrow and you'll see a BIG shift in desktop market share and really quickly.

Most people don't care about the OS. They are not fanboys. OSX or Windows doesn't matter to them.

What most people care about is the games and apps they can use. And this is where Windows dominate. MS should be thankful about Valve (and other companies) support not the other way around.

It's the same in the console market. If you don't get the games you're dead. Most people don't really care about the hardware as much as the games they can play. That's why MS spent a lot of money into securing third party exclusive games and time exclusivity when the original xbox came out.

Edited by LaP, Jul 26 2012, 3:28pm :

This is one thing where Gabe is completely daft. Windows could fall off the face of the earth tomorrow, and you know what most people would do when the time comes for a new computer? Buy a Mac.

When the choice comes down to a platform that still hasn't been able to punt its dependence on repositories and terminal commands and a Mac, well, OEMs better get good at making mobile hardware, because Apple will skyrocket in desktop marketshare.

It will never--EVER--be the "year of desktop Linux". Linux's only hope at ever achieving success with consumers is by not being Linux and instead hiding underneath a heavy layer of consumer-friendly makeup (Chrome OS, for example). I've said for a while now that the only chance Linux has at marketshare is if the web takes off as a platform and the OS for delivery no longer matters--but if that happens, who gives a crap about Steam? It has no place if the web is where the world is at.

LaP said,
The web or tablets to play full blown 3d games ?

Maybe one day. But not tomorrow.


Uh, well yeah. That's why I worded it as if it would be a far away event.

Though...you do realize there are "full blown 3D games" on tablets and mobile devices right now, right? The hardware is totally capable. If your concern is related to input devices, that's where the demand for a new class of tablet peripherals comes in.

And yeah, tablets can rely on 3rd party peripherals. They don't have to be fully-equipped to offer the absolute best possible gaming experience out of the box. Desktops are already like that--keyboard+mouse style gaming sucks balls on most laptop and AIO configurations (tiny, unergonomic, squishy keyboards do not a hardcore gamer make).

"Valve co-founder: Windows 8 is a "catastrophe""

8-xactly. lmao. didn't go through all the fanboy garbages in this thread. but i'm sure there are enough delusion of grandeur to fill more than 3 half-life sequels. rotflmfao.

don't get me wrong. i like win7. but win-rotten-egg? it's a stinker from hell that will make vista smelling like roses. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

I'm on the release preview, Steam and my games run, Origin and my games run, Office runs, Paint.net runs, Foobar & Waterfox runs. They're pinned to my taskbar. I want control panel? Command prompt? Device manager? I right click in the left corner. Winkey+R still works. Winkey+D still works. I can cascade and tile windows on screen. Honestly the only time I see the start screen is if I leave my desk and I intentionally bring it up so I can glance feeds from my news apps.

By no means is Windows 8 perfect, and critique is a good thing but the start screen thing is getting boring now. Just as the UI change brought with Vista continues with Win 7 but refined, so Windows 9 will have a refined start screen and Windows Runtime that people will praise as the best thing since sliced bread. This thing goes in cycles; change, refinement, repeat. Oh well.

Only know one thing, Windows 8 is a big gamble. There's a lot of people who are going to be turned off by the Metro stuff, that is for sure.

Ah Valve and their Linux efforts. For years they talked about it, and they apparently even assigned 11 ! People to the task. The main gaming studios develop games for Xbox and ps3 first and foremost, if we (pc gamers) are lucky they consider a pc version.

Just as is the case for other software, Linux isn't a viable platform. Adobe for instance, does not bother to develop any part of CS on Linux, and I can't think of any major software developer that bothers with Linux currently.

The problem of course is two fold, first one Linux distribution differs from the other in such a way that releasing applications and offering support becomes troublesome, the second problem already is apparent by watching the Google play onslought, where developers are complaining right left and center about the profitability of Android as a platform.

So valve is porting steam to Linux, what about the big developers that make steam an option, Rockstar for instance, they to date have not even bothered to port some of their old games to Linux, as they did for Osx.

The catastrophy might simply refer to steam itself, as the Windows app store would be in direct competition with steam and come preinstalled on any version of Windows, the guy is becomming scared or so it seems.

sjaak327 said,
Just as is the case for other software, Linux isn't a viable platform. Adobe for instance, does not bother to develop any part of CS on Linux, and I can't think of any major software developer that bothers with Linux currently.

How about Autodesk and HP?

Adobe's decision to not release Photoshop & Co. on Linux is not only because of it's marketshare. Their products have become defacto standards in design so they know designers will just go with whatever platform they release their products for.
There's barely any competitor so there's no advantage on offering their products on other platforms.

sjaak327 said,
The problem of course is two fold, first one Linux distribution differs from the other in such a way that releasing applications and offering support becomes troublesome

Nonsense: you don't support "Linux", you support one or several distros.

sjaak327 said,
the second problem already is apparent by watching the Google play onslought, where developers are complaining right left and center about the profitability of Android as a platform.

Nonsense again: Android's profitability is related to piracy, which runs rampant on every single desktop OS. It has absolutely nothing to do with Linux, if that's what you meant.

Edited by ichi, Jul 26 2012, 7:19pm :

This is not an unbiased opinion. Windows Store with Xbox branded integration, easy updates, portability between different machines and the like threatens to be a more powerful repository for buying games in the future which should eat away at Steam's business. Naturally he will be negative and push his customers to Linux where Steam have no competition.

Hmm, Gabe just says stuff. I respect the guy because he made Steam what it is, but when it comes to he's opinion on whatever else he's not reliable. Remember how much he hated the PS3 and then lately he love it to the point of appearing in Sony conferences and stuff?.

Still, the expansion to OSX was pretty awesome, and now the Linux version might be exactly what Linux needs to appeal a bit more to people.

Hell no! Just in case valve missed it, you can still have the regular desktop environment on your pc if you choose to, so this is crap. Is not like you can run next gen games on a tablet anyway! Those will probably run angry birds and stuff like that. In the other hand i do agree that windows 8 is a huge gamble and it could be a flop, microsoft is known for not giving it a 100% effort in their software and thats what sets it appart from companies like Apple. Apple its like they cant release a product until it is flawless and fuctional, microsoft is like they will release something as long as it works, doesnt matter if you get an error message and crashes all the time so u have to reboot, as long as it works.

Another company which recognizes Windows-8 as the "catastrophe" which is so applicable to the business/enterprise marketplace using laptops and desktops. It may be fine for tablets, but certainly not for anything else.

I don't see what Gabe's problem is. Steam runs just fine on Windows 8, as do most games (though I did have some GFWL issues that took a minute to solve, which have nothing to do with Steam). I guess he doesn't want to re-write Steam as a Metro app (which at this point in time isn't really necessary for functionality, but maybe would be a good idea for business)?

babyHacker said,
Oh no. Mention everything except what you are really afraid of, the MS App Store.

I think what he's really afraid of is the marginalization of desktop computing. Apple wants you gaming on your iPad. Others want you gaming on consoles. Even software developers often prefer consoles because they're a consistent platform that's easy to test against. Gaming on the desktop is still alive, yes, but it depends HEAVILY on a 25 year old formula sticking around for as long as possible, and all the roadblocks it brings to the party.

The web is growing as a platform, and any other day of the week, the people rubbing themselves to the sound of Gabe's heavy breathing would support that growth. But in the face of its impact on desktop gaming, the reality of the web as a platform is startling, and a major threat to Valve's whole business model. They're a DESKTOP ecosystem, with no simple path to move to the web. Why else are they looking to consoles? Consoles are the only path left for platforms like Steam. Cross-platform development, such as the web provides and whatever something like HTML6 might bring, leaves ecosystems built to manage hardware-dependent apps out in the cold.

No, the future of Steam will either be a console built on the Linux kernel, or just another memory.

Joshie said,

I think what he's really afraid of is the marginalization of desktop computing. Apple wants you gaming on your iPad. Others want you gaming on consoles. Even software developers often prefer consoles because they're a consistent platform that's easy to test against. Gaming on the desktop is still alive, yes, but it depends HEAVILY on a 25 year old formula sticking around for as long as possible, and all the roadblocks it brings to the party.

The web is growing as a platform, and any other day of the week, the people rubbing themselves to the sound of Gabe's heavy breathing would support that growth. But in the face of its impact on desktop gaming, the reality of the web as a platform is startling, and a major threat to Valve's whole business model. They're a DESKTOP ecosystem, with no simple path to move to the web. Why else are they looking to consoles? Consoles are the only path left for platforms like Steam. Cross-platform development, such as the web provides and whatever something like HTML6 might bring, leaves ecosystems built to manage hardware-dependent apps out in the cold.

No, the future of Steam will either be a console built on the Linux kernel, or just another memory.

The web is still not viable for anything but casual gaming. Javascript's not a production language, and unsuitable for a large codebase.
http://www.readwriteweb.com/mo...phic-the-hype-versus-re.php

Valve should clean up their own house... like their bloated, laggy client and their recent dearth of decent games.

GreyWolf said,
Valve should clean up their own house... like their bloated, laggy client and their recent dearth of decent games.

Nah, they can sit on their thumbs for at least another year or two while their fans notice every single time a press release or Gabe tweet uses the number 3.

Solid Knight said,
Microsoft changed the application design paradigm; developers will cry about it.

Arguably, mobility and HTML5 changed application design paradigms. Developers aren't thinking about platforms they way they used to anymore. What do we read about? New websites and apps. When was the last time anyone talked about desktop applications other than browsers and office/productivity suites from the giants?

EVERYTHING interesting is happening on the web and mobile ecosystems. The ONLY strength left to the desktop is its peripheral support, large displays, and multitasking style. Bring even TWO of those in a consumer-friendly way to the mobility market (ie., tablets), and the market will happily give up the third.

There's a reason why the complaints about Windows 8 are always the same two or three points, over and over again. They're the only complaints they can think of.

A company that makes a gaming App Market doesn't like changes to an OS that includes a built in App Market?

Shocked I tell you...

Technically there is NOTHING in Windows 8 that is 'below' Windows 7 for performance or ease of development, in fact it is faster and easier to develop games and Apps in Windows 8.

So why doesn't he like Windows 8? The built in store that even when just linking to software titles does NOT allow them to intercept or distribute the games through the market directly, as the game maker would have to then provide a Steam link from their site.

Bitter much? And Linux of all things, really?

Wow, that is just funny, but if they can carve out enough customers by making crap work on Linux 'reasonably' they could make a living.

Anyone that believes Linux can run a game as fast as Windows, has not a clue about OS technology and the correlation to hardware. Microsoft literally wrote the book on GPUs and GPU technology for over 10 years. What would be really funny is after investing a ton of money, and get some Linux success and give Microsoft the full finger, would be for Microsoft to call in their chips and demand patent and royalty payments. People don't seem to get how much of Linux and OpenGL are using Microsoft technologies, that Microsoft doesn't touch until the company tries to hit Microsoft with the technology. *red hat cough*

Didn't you know? Everyone is hoping that all patent laws and all software patents ever written in the history of the world will be completely and totally thrown out and no longer apply because harmony and sharing and love and peace and openness and freedom.

Of course, then we'll need government subsidies to come up with income for all the developers who'll no longer have any motivation to innovate, and that'll come with increased taxation and all kinds of caveats, but it'll be worth it, because then Microsoft and Apple won't be able to sue anyone anymore!

Haha, wtf?

***********************************

"I think Windows 8 is a catastrophe for everyone in the PC space. I think we'll lose some of the top-tier PC/OEMs, who will exit the market. I think margins will be destroyed for a bunch of people. If that's true, then it will be good to have alternatives to hedge against that eventuality.

Newell apparently didn't go into detail on exactly why he thinks Windows 8 would be, in his words, a "catastrophe"."


***********************************

Gabe Newell said EXACTLY why he thought it was a catastrophe. How could the author have missed that? Newell wasn't saying Windows 8 was a catastrophe - he was saying that Windows 8 will CAUSE a catastrophe.

Jahooba said,
Haha, wtf?

***********************************

"I think Windows 8 is a catastrophe for everyone in the PC space. I think we'll lose some of the top-tier PC/OEMs, who will exit the market. I think margins will be destroyed for a bunch of people. If that's true, then it will be good to have alternatives to hedge against that eventuality.

Newell apparently didn't go into detail on exactly why he thinks Windows 8 would be, in his words, a "catastrophe"."


***********************************

Gabe Newell said EXACTLY why he thought it was a catastrophe. How could the author have missed that? Newell wasn't saying Windows 8 was a catastrophe - he was saying that Windows 8 will CAUSE a catastrophe.

And what he said makes no sense, destroy margins? Why? Because OEMs can now make Windows ARM tablets at the low end? Oh please, that's a load of BS. If anything Windows 8 expands the market for developers by running on lots of different form factors and hardware from the lower end tablet right up to that expensive desktop or ultrabook. This claim is BS if you ask me. Besides I expect OEMs to charge a pretty penny for future ultrabook hybrids that can turn into tablets when needed and so on.

His argument is so baseless.

qdave said,
Says its catastrophe but doesnt provide a reason...interesting.

It's because the Windows Store makes him obsolete... and that's a catastrophe... for him...

Life has made me a bit cynical, so i'm gonna go out on a limb and say Gabe feels the presure of a native appstore on windows rising against Steam. There is some bad blood between Valve and a former retail publisher partner. Isn't having Windows (and thus the appstore plus the apps) tied to your hotmail/live/whatever_they_name_it_now account easier then having another app login on Steam?

He's not the one to talk since he's dragging his feet on some projects like a new engine that isn't almos a decade old or a new game in the saga of the hipster-glassed physician.

For all of the people that are rushing to defend windows 8. Go back and re-read what Gabe said. He thinks windows 8 will hurt PC gaming because windows 8 devices will be competing with much cheaper android/iOS devices. This will hurt their margins and may cause OEMs to abandon windows completely. If there is no compelling reason to support windows (If the apps are very similar to android apps ie. simplistic) then it becomes a good time to abandon ship. Less windows OEMs = higher hardware prices for those of us who would claim to no care because we build our own PCs. High prices for entry level gaming on PC could kill the market.

TL:DR - Windows 8 may put OEMs out of business due to low margins, therefore Gabe believes it is a disaster. It's right there in the article.

Narlzac85 said,
For all of the people that are rushing to defend windows 8. Go back and re-read what Gabe said. He thinks windows 8 will hurt PC gaming because windows 8 devices will be competing with much cheaper android/iOS devices. This will hurt their margins and may cause OEMs to abandon windows completely. If there is no compelling reason to support windows (If the apps are very similar to android apps ie. simplistic) then it becomes a good time to abandon ship. Less windows OEMs = higher hardware prices for those of us who would claim to no care because we build our own PCs. High prices for entry level gaming on PC could kill the market.

TL:DR - Windows 8 may put OEMs out of business due to low margins, therefore Gabe believes it is a disaster. It's right there in the article.

Ya, but that isn't what he is saying. It is 'part' of what he is saying, but with modern integrated GPU technologies from Intel, AMD, and even things like Tegra in the ARM world, this argument has sailed.

If this was 4 years ago and we were looking at Intel 945 GPUs and AMD R200 GPUs, he would have a point, but a low end AMD APU has rather good graphics and Intel's HD 4000 is in the beginning gaming class now.

Besides, if gamers buy want a Windows 8 tablet, they will buy one with an i5 or i7 and a higher end GPU, just like they do with the notebook market NOW.

Take a look at the notebook market as a perfect example of how this reasoning makes NO sense, because there are a ton of low level notebooks out there for cheap, and Gamers don't buy them, and the ones that do are ok with 30fps on low/med settings using the integrated GPU technology.

This also skips over a new market for gaming that will emerge, as with Windows 8 RT and even Windows Phone 8, people will not be left with simplistic puzzles and angry birds, or a low textured 3D driving game.

Windows Phone 8 devices will be shipping that with the GPUs available today can produce 720p or 480p gaming that is near and will soon exceed the XBox 360. (Go look at the CPU/GPU performance numbers of a Quad ARM with a DX10 level GPU, it is at the XBox 360 level, and this would be a phone or a tablet.) *Go look at the Havok demo from the Windows Phone 8 Summit, and others that have appeared with several engines being ported to Windows WOA running DirectX and a couple even OpenGL based projects, that is not OpenGL ES, but full OpenGL 4.x

He is bitter about the place they positioned themselves, and the ball they threw at Microsoft about gaining XBox Market access, and Microsoft picking up the their ball and going home.

he's just pushing his own product and trying to sway people away from Windows 8, seeing how nothing on the desktop has changed, just performance improvements and a newer version of dx

That dude should take a good look in the mirror before calling stuff a catastrophe or a disaster (speaking about the PS3, as much as I hate it, it's far from being a disaster) He may run one of the best video game companies out there but he's not the one doing all the great work.

Nice. Since Steam has hit Mac there has been a lot more game development that followed. If that happens to Linux there will be pretty much nothing Windows has left to offer aside from Office.

Sonne said,
If that happens to Linux there will be pretty much nothing Windows has left to offer aside from Office.

We have LibreOffice, Gnome Office, KOffice, Google Docs, and even Microsoft's own web based Office 360 for that. For the majority of people, MS Office is just redundant in the face of so many high quality and free alternatives.

Sonne said,
Nice. Since Steam has hit Mac there has been a lot more game development that followed. If that happens to Linux there will be pretty much nothing Windows has left to offer aside from Office.

Besides the architectural advantages, you mean, right?

Neither OS X or Linux can catch Windows when it games to gaming performance. Even in OpenGL, Windows hits a solid 20% faster, and with DirectX vs a Linux or OS X OpenGL game, it is more like 40% faster.

This is significant, and unless the Linux kernel is rewritten and OS X is dismantled and built from the ground up, this will not change.

Don't forget most of those alternative Office applications as well (plus more), drivers that actually work without compromise, applications that don't crash every 20 minutes, easy troubleshooting that doesn't involve digging through man-pages and a console or hopefully getting help on a forum, full compatibility with their already installed software, widest choice of software (application, gaming or otherwise), easy learning curve and an overall smoother and more streamlined experience.

I see a lot of Linux users who dual-boot into Windows because some stuff won't run.. yet how many Windows users will dual-boot into Linux for something Linux specific? Which one's got the deficiencies again?

Nah, Windows doesn't offer much at all.

thenetavenger said,

Neither OS X or Linux can catch Windows when it games to gaming performance. Even in OpenGL, Windows hits a solid 20% faster, and with DirectX vs a Linux or OS X OpenGL game, it is more like 40% faster.

That's just BS. If some games run faster on Windows, it's nothing to do with Direct3D, and everything to do with the graphics driver and how the game itself is written/optimised.

Take a look here:
http://www.tomshardware.com/re...-benchmark-review,3121.html

Doom 3 performs better on GNU/Linux than it does on Windows.

thenetavenger said,

This is significant, and unless the Linux kernel is rewritten and OS X is dismantled and built from the ground up, this will not change.

Gaming performance is down to the game, driver, and graphics card. Games written in OpenGL will perform well under Linux, and in some cases better than the Windows counterpart (Doom 3). So next time you go making claims, please do your research instead of just inventing them.

simplezz said,
Games written in OpenGL will perform well under Linux, and in some cases better than the Windows counterpart (Doom 3). So next time you go making claims, please do your research instead of just inventing them.

Kind of cherry-picking the benchmark there. That's one out of a very small minority of commercial games that use OpenGL on an OS that doesn't favor OpenGL to begin with.. of course it's not going to be as fast.

If we're cherrypicking, let's pit DirectX vs OpenGL. Just a couple out of a bunch of random search results.
http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.c...x-benchmark-comparison.html
Oh look, Unigine runs DirectX faster than OpenGL on Windows, there's a surprise. Not.

http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.c...-windows-7-performance.html
Another surprise, Windows runs DirectX games faster than Linux by a significant margain. No, not really surprised.

And lets not forget the drivers, which are in a bad way under Linux. You either got the buggy and sometimes problematic-to-install proprietary ones, or you got the significantly slower open source ones. And yea there's a benchmark for that too, by Phoronix no less. Even has Doom 3.
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.p...=nvidia_june_2012&num=1

Sonne said,
Nice. Since Steam has hit Mac there has been a lot more game development that followed. If that happens to Linux there will be pretty much nothing Windows has left to offer aside from Office.

bahahahahaha....oh the haters...
bahahahahaha

Sonne said,
Nice. Since Steam has hit Mac there has been a lot more game development that followed. If that happens to Linux there will be pretty much nothing Windows has left to offer aside from Office.

Sorry to burst your bubble, the year of linux aint for another 10 years at least. People are familiar with windows, not crapbuntu that changes its UI every 2 years to something totally different and ugly. Metros got a diff start screen, big freakin deal, NO manufacturer wants to make Linux their primary OS, the support costs alone would be atrocious.

Gaming wise, its windows. Gabe is bashing windows because the Win8 store is competition.

simplezz said,

For the majority of people, MS Office is just redundant in the face of so many high quality and free alternatives.

LOL, you're totally full of FUD.

Max Norris said,

Kind of cherry-picking the benchmark there.

How is it cherry picking to compare a game engine that's natively optimised to run on OpenGL on both platforms? Comparing games/engines written and optimised for Direct3D with an OpenGL afterthought is bound to yield bias results for Windows. There's no shock there.

Max Norris said,

That's one out of a very small minority of commercial games that use OpenGL on an OS that doesn't favor OpenGL to begin with.. of course it's not going to be as fast.

Doesn't favour? OpenGL isn't implemented by Microsoft (well not the newest implementations anyway, just an old one), it's implemented by the graphics provider usually such as Intel, AMD, or Nvidia. It doesn't have much to do with the OS or Microsoft. It's usually independent.

Max Norris said,

If we're cherrypicking, let's pit DirectX vs OpenGL. Just a couple out of a bunch of random search results.
http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.c...x-benchmark-comparison.html
Oh look, Unigine runs DirectX faster than OpenGL on Windows, there's a surprise. Not.

http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.c...-windows-7-performance.html
Another surprise, Windows runs DirectX games faster than Linux by a significant margain. No, not really surprised.

If you'd actually looked at the benchmark link I provided, you'd see it has a Unigine section. And it was done in Feb 2012, not JAN 2010 like the links you provided.

Max Norris said,

And lets not forget the drivers, which are in a bad way under Linux. You either got the buggy and sometimes problematic-to-install proprietary ones, or you got the significantly slower open source ones. And yea there's a benchmark for that too, by Phoronix no less. Even has Doom 3.
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.p...=nvidia_june_2012&num=1

It's a trade off when dealing with AMD/Nvidia. Personally, I prefer the slightly slower free open source graphic drivers which are very stable than as you say "problematic" proprietary ones. It's not usually the installs that are "problematic" though, it's the compatibility. With that being said, the Nvidia proprietary drivers are much better as they use the same code base as the Windows driver. But all in all, Intel far and above offer the best FOSS graphic drivers.

And by the way the link you provided says the article isn't available.

Edited by simplezz, Jul 26 2012, 9:51am :

I don't understand how Windows 8 coule be a "catastrophe" while it's a Windows 7 enhanced. More reliable (if it was possible), starting faster, with graphic accélération enprowment, it can be used as well on classic desktop as on touch devices... With oriented tablet and mobile or cellular type devices, etc. Etc.
Ans it should be a "catastrophe" and bad for the hole PC market only because it don't own anymore a simple bouton to launch a menu ? A menu wich is now more clear and a completely web services simple tasks oriented ? Are you're kidding ?

I suspect this has nothing to do with metro and everything to do with the locked-down nature of the ARM based Windows 8 devices.

Steam has no place there.

DonC said,
I suspect this has nothing to do with metro and everything to do with the locked-down nature of the ARM based Windows 8 devices.

Steam has no place there.

You're missing the obvious point that no Steam games will ever run on Windows 8 ARM

PmRd said,

You're missing the obvious point that no Steam games will ever run on Windows 8 ARM

No, I think that's exactly what he's saying. No Steam games will ever run on Windows RT... but DirectX games sold on the Windows Store will... and will perfectly fit into the Windows 8, Windows RT, Windows Phone 8, and future Xbox ecosystem. That's good for developers and consumers, but bad for Steam.

DonC said,
I suspect this has nothing to do with metro and everything to do with the locked-down nature of the ARM based Windows 8 devices.

Steam has no place there.

You are missing the 'lock down' significance. Games and DirectX and native code games run just fine on Windows RT (WOA).

Microsoft just requires that they have 'touch' in mind for UI or at least launch inside the Metro UI side.

Any game can be moved to Metro and still run DirectX and the same rendering/background code. This is true of Apps too, so Adobe could recompile Photoshop for Windows RT if they want, but they must provide the UI to be touch friendly and use Metro/WinRT, not Win32.

There is nothing preventing the backend code from running, and the OS is fully functional to run anything that already exists essentially, it is the UI that there are requirements.

So flip the UI code to Metro/WinRT, and compile for ARM and anything is possible.

Unsure what he means... it's possible he's talking about Windows 8 from a business standpoint: more features to deal with perhaps (things like Win7's UAC)

I'm going to skip Win8... Win7 is fine for and Win8 doesn't really offer anything that makes me want to go "I want that!"

Really?
I guess you never played one of the most influential games ever - Doom.
It ran on DOS along with many other classics.
DOS was ONLY PC gaming platform for quite a while, Windows sucked at it until DirectX, and even that took a few versions.

WTF you talking about? for it's time it was pretty great. Why do people like to compare modern day games to old ones? geezus! there were many other good games for windows/dos base. So please Shut IT! Thank You!

Steam sucks balls... running games on a novelty OS is going to be like using sand paper to wipe your ass. But let them try anyways. Windows is and always has been the system of choice for gamers. if I didn't activate some of my games with steam I would uninstall the crappy buggy as **** steam loader.

deepfunkysoul said,
running games on a novelty OS

That novelty OS runs the world's systems, from your router, to the websites you visit, to the cloud services you use. The whole internet is run by GNU/Linux. Novelty? I don't think so, no matter how much you would like that to be the truth.

Linux is growing exponentially in every market. Mobile is now dominated by it. Supercomputers, servers, embedded devices like TV's, topset boxes, smartbooks, netbooks, desktops, it's everywhere. And it's FOSS

deepfunkysoul said,

is going to be like using sand paper to wipe your ass.

That sounds like a description of Windows 8 to me. Everything about it is just painful. Hence why Valve, Asus, Dell, and many others are jumping into Linux. They know Windows 8 is going to be bad, and want to hedge their bets.

deepfunkysoul said,

But let them try anyways. Windows is and always has been the system of choice for gamers.

Gamers go where the games are. Steam is a big part of that because it makes things easy. It has nothing at all to do with Windows. Look at the Wii, or the PS3, they don't have Direct3D or Windows, yet they are very popular. OS X and iOS use OpenGL based graphics, nothing at all related to Windows, and gaming is very popular on them.

simplezz said,
That novelty OS runs the world's systems, from your router, to the websites you visit, to the cloud services you use. The whole internet is run by GNU/Linux. Novelty? I don't think so, no matter how much you would like that to be the truth.

Nobody's arguing that, except you don't play games on servers or routers. On the desktop, Linux is swirling the bowl.
simplezz said,
Gamers go where the games are. Steam is a big part of that because it makes things easy. It has nothing at all to do with Windows. Look at the Wii, or the PS3, they don't have Direct3D or Windows, yet they are very popular. OS X and iOS use OpenGL based graphics, nothing at all related to Windows, and gaming is very popular on them.

Again, you're mixing your systems. Desktops aren't Wii's or PS3's. There's a good market share for the Wii and PS3, and even OSX to an extent. Linux? Not so much, these games cost millions to develop.. they're not going to plunk down the cash just because of wishful thinking.

I haven't really formed an opinion on Windows 8 yet. The screenshots I've seen haven't impressed me much, and the discussion regarding the lack of a start menu has bothered me.

On the plus side, I've heard that it does seem to perform better than Windows 7 which IMO should make game developers like Gabe happy. I guess not?

I'm going to try and get the Windows 8 consumer preview installed tonight to check it all out.

Shadrack said,

I'm going to try and get the Windows 8 consumer preview installed tonight to check it all out.

Windows 8 Release Preveiw

To be honest, I can't take any value from Gabe's opinions. Yes he worked for Microsoft, but he jumped ship from the first moment he realized he could make buckets of money making games.

Also, Valve is a company that as far as I know prefers working on Macs but gets almost all of their money from the Windows platform. Don't misunderstand Gabe, his interest in Windows is strictly business.

I approve of the Valve Linux effort (simply due to the fact that Steam _will_ get used by Linux fans and the open source drivers will certainly get more work done on them as a result) but I find the whole idea of Valve and Windows 8 killing off the Windows platform laughable.

As I've said earlier, Windows 8 is a typical (and necessary) "Damned if they do, damned if they don't" product for Microsoft.

Dot Matrix said,
Linux? That'll be the day. Gaming isn't the biggest Linux shortcoming out there.

Windows 8 has more shortcomings than any other OS ever released. It's hard to beat that.

I can imagine a lot of desktop users dumping Windows entirely in the next upgrade cycle.

simplezz said,
I can imagine a lot of desktop users dumping Windows entirely in the next upgrade cycle.

Much more likely people who dislike it just won't upgrade. Just look at XP. They didn't jump ship.. they just stuck with what they liked. People claimed that same thing with Vista and 7, and yet look at the market share on desktops.. didn't do a thing for Linux. Game producers are going to go where the money is, and Linux isn't it. Gabe's just has a vested interest in Steam, of course he's going to bad mouth competition.. making it available isn't going to suddenly make all the big title developers want to sink money and chase after that 1%.

Edited by Max Norris, Jul 26 2012, 1:06am :

simplezz said,

Windows 8 has more shortcomings than any other OS ever released. It's hard to beat that.

I can imagine a lot of desktop users dumping Windows entirely in the next upgrade cycle.

Just keep imagining it dude, because thats all it is, nothing but your imagination.

simplezz said,

Windows 8 has more shortcomings than any other OS ever released. It's hard to beat that.

That is, of course, in your "expert" opinion.....right?

ScottKin said,

That is, of course, in your "expert" opinion.....right?

No, it's a fact. Can you tell me Linux honestly it has a shot of beating out Windows once gaming - a niche market in itself in the PC segment - goes to Linux?

The support Linux has, or more correctly, it *doesn't* have, is what kills it. OpenOffice/LibreOffice is a joke, and third party hardware support is non existant.

maybe he should be a little more clear as to why he thinks windows 8 is catastrophic. i hate it when people just say things without explaining. the desktop is pretty much the same, the only thing that has changed is the start screen...

aviator189 said,
maybe he should be a little more clear as to why he thinks windows 8 is catastrophic. i hate it when people just say things without explaining. the desktop is pretty much the same, the only thing that has changed is the start screen...

What he really wants to say but cant is the he is scared that gamers are going to use the windows app store and not the steam store, resulting in loss of ad and game revenue.

Zeikku said,
I don't like Newell, but I do agree with him.

please, do explain as to why you think windows 8 is a "catastrophe" for anything?? the only difference is that the start screen now has it's own hub and you could customize its layout. you have your desktop that function as normal as windows vista/7. what other changes to windows 8 do you see as catastrophic??

With Valve paving the way to Linux gaming I can see many developers porting their games to Linux or at least ensuring future games have Linux versions. Developers don't have to release the source code to their games if they don't want to so binary releases may be fine in most cases.

When Valve released Steam for Mac OS many games got Mac ports so it was all gravy there.

I'm glad Gabe is looking to be proactive on this. If gaming wasn't an issue, Linux would be much more attractive. I also think he's right that Win8's Applish approach may cause untold havoc in the PC space.

Dashel said,
I'm glad Gabe is looking to be proactive on this. If gaming wasn't an issue, Linux would be much more attractive. I also think he's right that Win8's Applish approach may cause untold havoc in the PC space.

what exactly is "applish" about windows 8?? they changed the start screen...pretty much it, you still have your desktop and everything else you would normally have on a windows os. besides the start screen, can you honestly name anything else significant that screams "applish" or "catastrophic??"

Dashel said,
I'm glad Gabe is looking to be proactive on this. If gaming wasn't an issue, Linux would be much more attractive. I also think he's right that Win8's Applish approach may cause untold havoc in the PC space.

How? I don't get this thinking, games run the same on Win8 like they do on Win7 and like they do on Vista and so on. How does the start screen change PC gaming so much that people think it'll cause havoc? I think you're blowing this way out of proportion to say the least.

Let me retry. Gaming is why I've always been first and foremost a Windows user. Due to the changes MS is making on several fronts (general Applish n00bification and appliance making IMO), for the first time I'm strongly doubting my continued loyalty to the brand (Of which I've used every iteration of since the 80s DOS days).

Remove the monopoly on gaming, depreciate the mouse, and Windows is much less attractive for enthusiasts moving forward.

The havoc will be for partners, OEMs, and developers, not consumers.

Dashel said,
Let me retry. Gaming is why I've always been first and foremost a Windows user. Due to the changes MS is making on several fronts (general Applish n00bification and appliance making IMO), for the first time I'm strongly doubting my continued loyalty to the brand (Of which I've used every iteration of since the 80s DOS days).

Remove the monopoly on gaming, depreciate the mouse, and Windows is much less attractive for enthusiasts moving forward.

The havoc will be for partners, OEMs, and developers, not consumers.


You have your desktop for gaming...as you normally would. What other change, besides the start screen/login screen, do you see that threatens whatever you see being threatened?? in addition, windows 8 brings with it several bouts of performance enhancements over windows 7. I honestly don't understand your argument.

Frankly, my personal reasons and preferences have nothing to do with my point and by no means are limited to Win8. Its a systemic problem over several years. Gamers are wed to Windows so we can't jump ship even if we wanted to, change that and my personal reasons for not running Linux on my desktop would need reappraisal.

Dashel said,
Frankly, my personal reasons and preferences have nothing to do with my point and by no means are limited to Win8. Its a systemic problem over several years. Gamers are wed to Windows so we can't jump ship even if we wanted to, change that and my personal reasons for not running Linux on my desktop would need reappraisal.

right...so, you really don't have a solid argument against windows 8, do you?? your only problem is windows os being too popular among gamers and steam's slow advancements on other devices. sorry, but that's a lame excuse.

Didn't realize I was arguing against Win8. Even if it was a flaming pile of crap (which it isn't), its still better than the competition by a mile - re gaming.

My remarks make perfect sense in the context of the source article, I suggest you read it. I will try and clarify the Applish bit (ie walled garden in this context)

Gabe

“We are looking at the platform and saying, ‘We've been a free rider, and we've been able to benefit from everything that went into PCs and the Internet, and we have to continue to figure out how there will be open platforms.'”

Attacking me makes little sense since my reply has nothing to do with your narrative.
Gabe

“The big problem that is holding back Linux is games. People don't realize how critical games are in driving consumer purchasing behavior.

Edited by Dashel, Jul 26 2012, 1:22am :

Dashel said,
Frankly, my personal reasons and preferences have nothing to do with my point and by no means are limited to Win8. Its a systemic problem over several years. Gamers are wed to Windows so we can't jump ship even if we wanted to, change that and my personal reasons for not running Linux on my desktop would need reappraisal.

That's exactly my thinking. Although in calling Win 8 a catastrophe, I think he meant as an experience, and not specifically for gaming. As there is nothing fundamentally wrong with gaming on Windows 8, and it would even be nice if you gained a few fps since a lot of features were removed in Windows 8.

I don't understand why Windows 8 fanatics are so threatened by people disliking Windows 8. Either way I look forward to spending more time in Linux if I will have access to some steam games.

Dashel said,
I'm glad Gabe is looking to be proactive on this. If gaming wasn't an issue, Linux would be much more attractive. I also think he's right that Win8's Applish approach may cause untold havoc in the PC space.

Not "gaming" is the issue of Linux. It's way beyond that. It's the buggy, crappy sound subsystem, the buggy, crappy video subsystem, which are BASIC parts of an entertaining desktop. Now, how do you build a desktop on top of these? Install Linux, and you'll see.

And no, I don't need your smart comments about those evil vendors not releasing drivers. I don't care. I just don't. It won't t change the end result in any way.

The end result is, you go to Linux, and basic things like handling 2 sound cards simultaneously, or connecting to a hidden WiFi network just won't work (or work badly) on your desktop environment coz someone decided "it's not important". Yeah, you still have excellent command line tools, sounds like desktop ready.

That's the f*cking problem with the Linux desktop, not a damn start menu (which doesn't have ANYTHING to do with Steam) this so-smart Gabe's bitching about. It just can't be taken seriously.

It's not that Windows 8 fanatics are feeling "threatened" - they're just correcting the nonsensical FUD being spewed by they Anti-Windows / Antii-Microsoft Bigots that usually occurs around every new Windows release.

ScottKin said,
It's not that Windows 8 fanatics are feeling "threatened" - they're just correcting the nonsensical FUD being spewed by they Anti-Windows / Antii-Microsoft Bigots that usually occurs around every new Windows release.

It's not all FUD, unfortunately, there's some definite issues that have been brought up in numerous threads on here. Some times there are those that blindly support things because they are new and shiny.

bivik, unless someone big (like Valve) makes it a priority and helps them 'fix' the associated parts that are broken, its never gonna have a chance anyway (Like MS did for OS X for example). Since Linux is the only other real game in town, I'd prefer a two horse race personally. Not that I don't think you are right about many of the current weaknesses and the pessimism that they can ever be 'fixed'.

I just find it funny that as a 30 year user of MS products and as someone that loathes Apple, how frequently many of us get attacked around here for being anti-MS. If anything, its the Apple loving n00bs that are the apologists, not us grey beards.

Edited by Dashel, Jul 26 2012, 5:51pm :

We've heard this before (that he didn't like windows 8)
but this quoted info is new and more harsh.

Everyone around here knows i don't like windows 8 so..

What i do want to say is I'm happy and proud of Neowin here !
You guys (John) relayed the information and are letting the user think what they want.
Not a bias's pro win 8 opinion piece designed to steer peoples opinions masqueraded as news..

I can't stress enough how much i like freedom of speech and
(the ability to hear both sides of a story)

I'm no Gabe fan boy but this is great stuff from him.
Safe to say i was involved in the begging with creating the worlds first
cracks for steam and i have been using it since steam was a limited private beta
and the forums (registration) were closed to the public. I also was one of a couple people that played the css beta because a close person i know is the guy that stole it lol
How many cocky Counter Strike little know it all's even know what the first map that was ported was ?
I bet 99.9% of them all would get it wrong lol

so i've been on the other side of hating gabe + steam + valve
but this story really wins me over and is helping bring me around.

PS: i have bought MANY retail cd/dvd's for valve products too
i pirated css before it was released and bought it when it was finalized
and also bought it for 2 family members. I say that because i mentioned steam cracks etc

Feeling left-out much lately? Enough that you needed to add another foot's length to your arm to sufficiently pat yourself on the back.

Get over yourself.

HA-HA! I TROLLED YOU!

Melfster said,
I can't wait to get rid of crap called Steam my desktop.

So you don't have any games on Steam? You just run in the background or what?

Melfster said,
I can't wait to get rid of crap called Steam my desktop.

crap rofl thank you for admitting you don't use steam at all.

brianshapiro said,
I wonder if its because the Windows 8 app store/XBox Live Games is a threat to the Steam platform. (nah, forget I said anything)

It is.

Anthonyd said,
Lol yeah, blame an OS that is a huge threat to your own system (steam in that case).

How does Windows 8 threaten steam? Contrary to popular belief the desktop doesn't work any differently.

SharpGreen said,

How does Windows 8 threaten steam? Contrary to popular belief the desktop doesn't work any differently.

Indie games are likely to have better success due to massive exposure that Windows 8 will have compared to Steam.

Only if a bunch of AAA titles get published there, which I somehow strongly doubt.
Indie gaming does not reap enough profit to be meaningful.

SharpGreen said,
How does Windows 8 threaten steam? Contrary to popular belief the desktop doesn't work any differently.
You can buy games inside the Windows 8 store and Valve won't see a penny of it. That and the synchronization with the XBOX services which will put a lot of people out of steam.

dagamer34 said,

Indie games are likely to have better success due to massive exposure that Windows 8 will have compared to Steam.


Massive exposure?
The store will be frequented by people who have W8, but I think tons of people will downgrade.
Heck, I even get customers asking me whether I can downgrade them to Windows XP even TODAY.

Go figure...

GS:mac

Anthonyd said,
You can buy games inside the Windows 8 store and Valve won't see a penny of it. That and the synchronization with the XBOX services which will put a lot of people out of steam.

I'm not sure how people are missing this obvious fact.

SharpGreen said,
the desktop doesn't work any differently.

So I can click on the start button and get a start menu again from the desktop? You must have access to information the rest of us do not have.

Glassed Silver said,

Massive exposure?
The store will be frequented by people who have W8, but I think tons of people will downgrade.
Heck, I even get customers asking me whether I can downgrade them to Windows XP even TODAY.

Go figure...

GS:mac

Sorry "tons of people" won't upgrade because they don't want it/don't know how to do it/don't even know it's possible to do so.

According to wikipedia, steam has 40 millions accounts. With around 400 millions Windows 8 PC sold by the end of 2013, steam can't match it.

Raa said,

So I can click on the start button and get a start menu again from the desktop? You must have access to information the rest of us do not have.
You can install one of the many software that does that, it's not like they are free and easy to be installed.

Anthonyd said,
You can install one of the many software that does that, it's not like they are free and easy to be installed.

Yeah of course I can, but Microsoft itself doesn't offer users that choice which is the disappointment.
The original point stands though, the desktop does work entirely differently, and Gabe was fair in calling that out.

dagamer34 said,

Indie games are likely to have better success due to massive exposure that Windows 8 will have compared to Steam.

You know that Steam is right now THE platform for indies? And that the devs love it because Valve is great at working with them? Opposed to that ask a few of them (Team Meat or Phil Fish eg) what they think about Microsoft.

Raa said,

Yeah of course I can, but Microsoft itself doesn't offer users that choice which is the disappointment.
The original point stands though, the desktop does work entirely differently, and Gabe was fair in calling that out.

I'm sorry, but how does the lack of the Start menu affect your ability to purchase / play a game?

Anthonyd said,
You can buy games inside the Windows 8 store and Valve won't see a penny of it. That and the synchronization with the XBOX services which will put a lot of people out of steam.

THIS.

Anthonyd said,

According to wikipedia, steam has 40 millions accounts. With around 400 millions Windows 8 PC sold by the end of 2013, steam can't match it.

Because of course those 400 millions windows 8 owners will all be gamers who buy games on a regular basis ....

So far i don't think Valve needs to be worried unless MS brings the whole XBox Live experience to PC.

Steam is far from being a store only.

Anthonyd said,
Lol yeah, blame an OS that is a huge threat to your own system (steam in that case).

Thinks people are going to willingly support the people that created GfwL, Fanboy detected.

LaP said,
Because of course those 400 millions windows 8 owners will all be gamers who buy games on a regular basis ....

So far i don't think Valve needs to be worried unless MS brings the whole XBox Live experience to PC.

Steam is far from being a store only.

With the store screaming at you "buy this game§§" it should raise the number of people playing on pc/laptop/slate/whatever Windows 8 runs on.

Also, you have almost all the Xbox Live experience on PC, tbh I don't even see anything missing atm.

Raa said,

So I can click on the start button and get a start menu again from the desktop? You must have access to information the rest of us do not have.

You click the corner of the screen, and get a screen that does everything the old crappy start menu did. Don't see any difference other than it being full screen.

ccoltmanm said,
Seems like Valve creating a Metro app would only be a good thing.

That would be weird - starting a game from a games launcher loaded by another launcher (the Inception of launchers)

georgevella said,

That would be weird - starting a game from a games launcher loaded by another launcher (the Inception of launchers)

And if the game itself has yet another launcher of its own >.>

georgevella said,

That would be weird - starting a game from a games launcher loaded by another launcher (the Inception of launchers)

Why? I launch games for Steam now instead of from the desktop or start menu, it's already a launcher in a launcher

myxomatosis said,

A launcher within a launcher? You need that?

Also, Metro apps can stick additional shortcuts directly on the Start Screen.

georgevella said,

That would be weird - starting a game from a games launcher loaded by another launcher (the Inception of launchers)

You mean like the start menu?

Normally I don't say oh snap, but I'll make an exception.

myxomatosis said,

A launcher within a launcher? You need that?

Same as with XBox Live Games, you can launch them from the Start Menu or through the app. That way you can limit whats on your Start Menu, the app is like a subscreen.

brianshapiro said,

Same as with XBox Live Games, you can launch them from the Start Menu or through the app. That way you can limit whats on your Start Menu, the app is like a subscreen.

Don't try to explain something simple and logical to him, it seems to be over his comprehension level

PmRd said,

Don't try to explain something simple and logical to him, it seems to be over his comprehension level

Yet you can't launch another app from within a Metro app. Its sand boxed and has restricted access to certain API functions. So unless they work close with Microsoft to have an exception to the rule, they won't be getting a native metro app from steam as a launcher.

However, saying that, there are a few ways valve could work it. They could have a classic windows service that has a http server running that runs games when directed to the correct url via a token system. Messy but it might work. Not any better then the existing Steam program in classic desktop though.
Another way would be to offer up your steam account via a webpage with a metro app controlling it, and then have Microsoft intergrate steams games into the windows gaming library for downloads, but again that's more something they'd have to work with Microsoft on.

PmRd said,

Don't try to explain something simple and logical to him, it seems to be over his comprehension level

After sagum's explanation, who's the idiot?

myxomatosis said,

After sagum's explanation, who's the idiot?

How is the new start screen more of a launcher then the old start menu? Because it's fullscreen? How would it be different from the way it currently works?

PmRd said,

How is the new start screen more of a launcher then the old start menu? Because it's fullscreen? How would it be different from the way it currently works?

I think you're confusing the issue here. This thread is about

ccoltmanm said,
Seems like Valve creating a Metro app would only be a good thing.

Like you've said, and I don't think anyone is arguing with you on that, the start menu and start screen are no different in the way they launch applications.

However, a Metro application can not run another. So while you might launch a Steam metro app from the start screen in much the same way you would launch Steam on the desktop, the Metro app can not be used to start a game, it can't be used to join a friend game they are currently playing, you can't invite people to play with you, no steam overlay.
Forgiving all that, and say we just wanted a way to start games from within the Steam Metro app. You can't because steam uses steam_api.dll to hook the game for DRM.

Again, metro apps are sandboxed. Nothing gets in, nothing gets out without express permission from the Windows Metro API.

The best Valve can hope for with regards to a Metro app as it stands now is just a glorified webpage viewer.

Still, I'd love to see some nice Steam intergration like this mockup with live tiles for its game and maybe friends that are playing them. We can but hope and dream.

http://s12.postimage.org/slqhup3nh/Untitled.gif

I'm guessing it's the ruined desktop experience that's worrying him… smart man.

I can't imagine anything else in Windows 8 that can be construed as much worse. Perhaps he's worried that consumers will abandon powerful desktops and laptops.

a1ien said,
Perhaps he's worried that consumers will abandon powerful desktops and laptops.

He should have started worrying about that as soon as android/apple devices became famous. I see more people playing games on their phone then on a pc - yes they are simpler and stupider, but they are fun. If you want to have a small break from work you can easily just launch your current fav game and start playing.

The way I see it, tablets/phones will be the next gaming platform whereas PCs will be secluded to content production.

a1ien said,
I'm guessing it's the ruined desktop experience that's worrying him… smart man.

I can't imagine anything else in Windows 8 that can be construed as much worse. Perhaps he's worried that consumers will abandon powerful desktops and laptops.

Tell us more about the "ruined desktop experience" plz, since it works relatively like previous version of Windows with new features.

Anthonyd said,
since it works relatively like previous version of Windows

So, tell me again about the start menu...

I think he is worried about Xbox Live(Why would you need steam if you can do it via Xbox Live?). That people will give up powerful desktops or laptops is bull since Windows 8 works pretty great on a desktop once you get used to it.

georgevella said,
I see more people playing games on their phone then on a pc

Of course you do as people don't carry their PCs around. But Steam and PC-gaming as a whole has grown immensely over the past three years and it doesn't look like it's stopping. I have never seen so many console-gamers convert and the PC couldn't be farther away from "only content creation" which has been toated as it's fate since the 80s by people who believe that there can be only one viable platform. It won't happen.

Anthonyd said,
Tell us more about the "ruined desktop experience" plz, since it works relatively like previous version of Windows with new features.

I don't get how anyone can say that. It does not work the same and imo it is slower to use. I use to click the start bar and start typing or go to my documents or game folder. There is no game folder in Windows 8. How it works is just silly imo and not well thought out.

Deihmos said,
I don't get how anyone can say that. It does not work the same and imo it is slower to use. I use to click the start bar and start typing or go to my documents or game folder. There is no game folder in Windows 8. How it works is just silly imo and not well thought out.
You can pin folders on the start screen; hence your argument is invalid. "how it works is just silly", no you have to learn how to use it first.

This guys(Gabe) is an idiot because nothing has changed in Windows 8 from a gaming perspective, if anything everything is improvements. I just finished installing Windows 8 on my desktop(only had it on my thinkpad before) and I gotta say I love it(I was skeptical about the mouse thing with Metro, but it just works). The ability to have a constant side windows along with two side to side window is sure to make many productive from my perspective. Now Gabe is just trying to blow wind for his supposed console which is based on Linux. Too bad that he is beating the hand that feed his fat ass but I am sure the Xbox Live thing has something to do with it(Steam NO MORE!).

neufuse said,
Que the required "Gabe doesn't know anything" comments...

He says "I do think we will have bands on our wrists, and you'll be doing something with your hands, which are really expressive."
He doesn't know anything, he's not even watched the Matrix, everyone knows we'll be jacked in to our cerebral cortex.. blah! and he has the audacity to call himself "super nerdy".

neufuse said,
Que the required "Gabe doesn't know anything" comments...

Gabe said the same thing about the PS3 being a catastrophe, and now it plays nice with Steam. So.... Gabe doesn't know what he's talking about.

Zeet said,

Gabe said the same thing about the PS3 being a catastrophe, and now it plays nice with Steam. So.... Gabe doesn't know what he's talking about.

Yeah, he's proven himself in the passed that he says things for the reaction and publicity. Could have put money on him saying this.

nickcruz said,
This guys(Gabe) is an idiot because nothing has changed in Windows 8 from a gaming perspective,

He certainly knows more about the gaming market than you imo.

Zeet said,

Gabe said the same thing about the PS3 being a catastrophe, and now it plays nice with Steam. So.... Gabe doesn't know what he's talking about.

He was partially right though.

When you consider where the PS2 was and where the PS3 is you can safely say the PS3 is far from a groundbreaking success. It's not as far as you might think from being a catastrophe.

"We want to make it as easy as possible for the 2,500 games on Steam to run on Linux as well. It's a hedging strategy."
Face after reading this = F**k Yea

n_K said,
"We want to make it as easy as possible for the 2,500 games on Steam to run on Linux as well. It's a hedging strategy."
Face after reading this = F**k Yea

I think this is closely related to Valve's alleged intention to make a new console. Having steam able to run on Linux would make it much easier to design and construct a console which will basically be a PC for your TV with all the advantages that a PC has over the present consoles.

n_K said,
"We want to make it as easy as possible for the 2,500 games on Steam to run on Linux as well. It's a hedging strategy."

Is that even possible? They can do it with Valve games, but I don't see Modern Warfare, for instance, running on Steam for Linux.

Setnom said,

Is that even possible? They can do it with Valve games, but I don't see Modern Warfare, for instance, running on Steam for Linux.

It's very possible, you can already play Windows games on Linux using various "wrappers", they won't run as well obviously, sometimes they won't run at all but it is possible.

Although if Valve brings the Linux OS to gaming properly, other game makers will probably want to follow suit, provided Linux becomes popular enough. They're in this for the money so they go with Windows because it's the majority. If that position changes then their attitude towards it will obviously change.

Have a look at these YouTube vids for more info on "gaming on wine", wine is the windows on linux wrapper.

http://www.youtube.com/results...3.0...0.0...1ac.tufSI4D7Ugs

PsYcHoKiLLa said,

It's very possible, you can already play Windows games on Linux using various "wrappers", they won't run as well obviously, sometimes they won't run at all but it is

Don't kid yourself. As long as MS doesn't license out DirectX we won't see it anytime soon and if these games are ported, they'll probably be crappy

briangw said,

Don't kid yourself. As long as MS doesn't license out DirectX we won't see it anytime soon and if these games are ported, they'll probably be crappy

OpenGL is not as good as Direct X, I Agree... but none the less does a good job, more games, more OpenGL development, pure Win.

Setnom said,

Is that even possible? They can do it with Valve games, but I don't see Modern Warfare, for instance, running on Steam for Linux.

Most AAA game engines are designed to be portable and already support OpenGL, so yes it's very possible. OpenGL itself is cross-platform and well supported on virtually every OS, including Windows, GNU/Linux, OS X, Android, and many others. Unlike Direct3D, which is platform specific to Windows/Microsoft.

Most games will use platform agnostic engines in the future that will allow them to play everywhere.

briangw said,

Don't kid yourself. As long as MS doesn't license out DirectX we won't see it anytime soon and if these games are ported, they'll probably be crappy

Wine already has a Direct3D implementation. But that's unimportant anyway. DirectX is a locked down, platform specific technology, and it will fade into obsolescence eventually. Every other platform except Windows uses OpenGL as their primary graphics library, so it's only a matter of time until devs start shunning Direct3D.

simplezz said,

Wine already has a Direct3D implementation. But that's unimportant anyway. DirectX is a locked down, platform specific technology, and it will fade into obsolescence eventually. Every other platform except Windows uses OpenGL as their primary graphics library, so it's only a matter of time until devs start shunning Direct3D.


Been hearing that for over a decade.

MrHumpty said,

Been hearing that for over a decade.

Agreed. I'll take it back when I see it and it probably won't be for a long time.

MrHumpty said,

Been hearing that for over a decade.

Ive been hearing the same 'its the year of linux' rants forever now. Linux needs an entire century to be viable for home use. GL is inferior, hands down. Who wants to take a step back, the gaming industry wont and neither will gamers. Windows 8 wont be a disaster, everyones just trying to cash in on the typical windows hate that comes from idiots who cant take change.

MrHumpty said,

Been hearing that for over a decade.
With Valve supporting OSX and Linux like that, it might start making more sense for developers to just target OpenGL. A big push by the industry is exactly what OpenGL needs

PsYcHoKiLLa said,
It's very possible, you can already play Windows games on Linux using various "wrappers", they won't run as well obviously, sometimes they won't run at all but it is possible.

Technically playable? Probably, it's possible.

Comfortably playable? Really???

MrHumpty said,

Been hearing that for over a decade.

He is still probably right though.

I just can't see the gaming industry stay on Directx as soon as MS OSes (Windows, Xbox, WP, ...) market share will go down too much. Right now it's still viable at around 88% market share for windows i think (not sure did not check for a long time) and the xbox 360 going strong but if the market share goes down too much gaming companies will drop Directx eventually and focus on something else unless MS makes it multiplatform and this will never happen. Open GL is not as bad as MS fanboys like to think it is. It's all about money. But as long as Ms market share stay strong Directx will be on top and games will be ported to OpenGL when needed.

Big companies come and go. MS will always be there but i doubt it will be able to keep a close to 100% market share for the next 100 years. And as soon as the market will be split Directx might very well be droped.

Edited by LaP, Jul 26 2012, 2:30pm :

n_K said,
"We want to make it as easy as possible for the 2,500 games on Steam to run on Linux as well. It's a hedging strategy."
Face after reading this = F**k Yea

I think he's gone off his rocker. The 25 people who use Linux on the desktop and play games aren't much of a market.

MrHumpty said,

Been hearing that for over a decade.

It's not gonna happen, more likely for it to be licensed to other platforms before devs shun it.

PsYcHoKiLLa said,

I think this is closely related to Valve's alleged intention to make a new console. Having steam able to run on Linux would make it much easier to design and construct a console which will basically be a PC for your TV with all the advantages that a PC has over the present consoles.

**IF** Ouya makes it, it would be easier to port to it as well.