Windows build 9788 spotted in the wild

Got your salt handy? Good. Take a small pinch of it, because the image you see above is said to be from a new build of Windows -- build 9788, to be exact. While the screenshot does not show much, it does show that what might be the first post-Windows 8.1 build is now outside the walls of Microsoft.

Normally, this kind of post would not be all that exciting, but the rumor mill has been flooded with information that 9788 would leak in the very near future. If this screenshot is anything to go by, the ISO is on a path to another public leak.

As more users start to get their hands on this build, we will be curious to see if the new Start menu is included. While we think that this particular build is not from the Update 2 branch that is expected to arrive in August, we won't know for certain until it fully leaks.

We will keep an eye on all of the usual channels to see if this build ever makes it out as a full blown leak.

Source: Centrum Windows

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So, choice of UI is the real issue. No argument there--never has been. Give users the choice of UI to use when installing Windows-9. As for third-party add-ons, they represent supplying what Microsoft didn't to provide initially.

TsarNikky said,
So, choice of UI is the real issue. No argument there--never has been. Give users the choice of UI to use when installing Windows-9. As for third-party add-ons, they represent supplying what Microsoft didn't to provide initially.

You have that choice now in Windows 8.1

If were truly so, where is all the ballyhoo about now one's "Windows-7 experience is now available with Windows-8.1?" I believe Windows-8.1 is only a "partial." Microsoft is still left with the choice--make Windows-9 (including the choice of UIs) truly inclusive for all form-factors, or continue with the "great divide" that was created and continues between Windows-7 and Windows-8.

TsarNikky said,
If were truly so, where is all the ballyhoo about now one's "Windows-7 experience is now available with Windows-8.1?" I believe Windows-8.1 is only a "partial." Microsoft is still left with the choice--make Windows-9 (including the choice of UIs) truly inclusive for all form-factors, or continue with the "great divide" that was created and continues between Windows-7 and Windows-8.

What "great divide"? The only great divide here is in your head.

Dot/DConnell - the choice was there in Windows 8 - TsarNikky is upset over the Start menu's banishment - nothing less, apparently, will do, especially since he is perfectly willing to throw ALL the third-party alternatives under the bus. Anarkii is even worse - he is STILL of the opinion that ModernUI is all about touch, despite a ton of data (including from outside of Windows) that refutes the whole argument he is trying to make. It's not about logic.

Anarkii and TsarNikky - do you (either of you) realize that you are basically asking Microsoft to reduce (not increase) choice? First off, nobody is saying that you have to not run desktop applications; have I not been pointing out (repeatedly) that desktop applications still work? Touch support was NOT added at the expense of keyboard OR mouse support - all that happened is that pointing devices are not glaringly-obviously favored - nothing more OR less. (I have used Windows 8 (and updates since) with a keyboard and mouse since the Developer Preview; my tower doesn't support touch at all. The applications could actually care less that the Start menu is missing.) Is getting the Start menu back worth sacrificing choice to you? To me, the ModernUI app space is all about additional choices - and nothing else; because I'm not dependent on the pointing device, the Start menu means exactly diddly to me. And, even more telling, I'm running it on Vista-era hardware - more modern hardware has MORE features that Windows 8.1 can take advantage of than Windows 7 does, for example - such as Hyper-V (improved virtualization); in the mean time what have I lost besides the Start menu (which, if you really need it, can be brought back with third-party software)?

That's the real issue - exactly why is Microsoft forced to bring back the Start menu, when there are all these third-party options?

All I want from Windows 9 is the start menu back, and new icons. And no metro whatever on my desktop. Keep that filthy crap to touch devices.

Does Microsoft understand the concept of "different strokes for different folks?" Or, is corporate arrogance keeping them stuck in a "one size fits all" mentality? How is Nadella going to handle these situations? We'll have to wait and see.

TsarNikky said,
Does Microsoft understand the concept of "different strokes for different folks?" Or, is corporate arrogance keeping them stuck in a "one size fits all" mentality? How is Nadella going to handle these situations? We'll have to wait and see.

So, you want them to reduce and forego innovating just because you don't want these features? There is nothing wrong with one size fits all. Live Tiles aren't going to destroy your workflow.

What I hope MS does is to enable live taskbar previews for pinned apps that were opened but minimized. Currently the preview only shows the last full screen view. Being able to see the current temp, and other live stuff, by hovering the cursor over an"open" taskbar app icon would be excellent. It works with desktop programs but not minimized Start screen apps, unless there's a setting I missed.

TsarNikky said,
At least the tacky toy-like tiles are not there. Maybe there is home for a non touch-centric UI??

What's wrong with them, that you can't click on them with your mouse? There not there, because live tiles are in the Start Screen and Start Menu. They don't live on the desktop, remember?

'Tis quite tame for the Tsar tbh.

Where's all the 'I foresee/saw... the indisputable failure... false evolution... bankruptcy... all self-evident...' and so on?

My tiles are awesome, loads of good stuff going on (Neowin live-web tile inc.) ;) Going back is going backwards.

Dot Matrix said,

What's wrong with them, that you can't click on them with your mouse? There not there, because live tiles are in the Start Screen and Start Menu. They don't live on the desktop, remember?

Why not? Macosx runs like that. Why can't the background be some tiles when you hit start with apps in foreground? Tiles are not half screen but applets that can come on down with desktop faded but not invisible in an aero like fashioned. Male apps not maximize like OSX unless a user sets it too.

This is what win 7 and XP users are screaming about. They want word, IE, and other apps visible with that emphasized. Not consumption of 3 function applets all full screen which encourages single tasking

sinetheo said,

Why not?

Because gadgets failed in Vista. What makes you think people would scream for live tiles on the desktop? They don't belong there.

Dot Matrix said,

Because gadgets failed in Vista. What makes you think people would scream for live tiles on the desktop? They don't belong there.

It remains to be seen whether or not live tiles on the Start Page prove to be popular. Being in the current version of Windows, the defacto desktop, makes popularity hard to measure.

Having said that, gadgets failed mostly because they sucked and had very poor design. I'm sure if gadgets looked more like Rainmeter, they would have faired better. Even now Mac app designers just make better looking stuff. While the PC platform is more than capable, designers and artists still flock in disproportionate numbers to the Mac platform and even the worst Mac apps tend to look good. Aesthetics have never been high on Windows Developers' list. Just as icon design has never been high on Microsoft's list, to this day.

Dot Matrix said,

Because gadgets failed in Vista. What makes you think people would scream for live tiles on the desktop? They don't belong there.

Because a taskbar is for mouse and modern is for touch. Windows phone apps tiles on a mouse friendly way works for non touch. We won't upgrade. Ain't happening on a 23 inch monitor for 8 inch surface.

sinetheo said,

Because a taskbar is for mouse and modern is for touch. Windows phone apps tiles on a mouse friendly way works for non touch. We won't upgrade. Ain't happening on a 23 inch monitor for 8 inch surface.

What are you even comparing here? Not sure what it is you're even trying to say?

sinetheo - have you forgotten about Taskbar pinning, a feature that dates back to Windows 7? Taskbar pinning didn't leave with Windows 8, or since; desktop shortcuts haven't gone anywhere, either. As far as the lack of desktop shortcuts in Office goes, that was Microsoft paying attention to users back with Office 2000 - the ONLY desktop shortcut created by default with even Office 2000 was that for Outlook; Office 2003 did away with even that. (In short, that was NOT a Windows-based decision - that was something a lot of users, and mostly enterprise users at that - demanded from Office.) Can they be re-created? Rather easily (and several different ways); in fact, I used to have both Word AND Outlook pinned to the Taskbar. Now, however, neither is - in Word's case, I use it primarily to edit documents - not create new ones; in Outlook's case, I Runbox launch it. Personal choice - nothing more or less.

Just because the OS (and hardware) supports touch, it doesn't mean that you have to use that support. Not with Windows (even as far back as 7), or Android, or iOS.

after 10 years its about time for new Icons. what do you think Microsoft?!
or do we have to wait for the big 10 for this to happen!?!

I take nothing from a leaked pre-Preview/beta, but I really do hope they've got the message and we'll not be wishing the 'art' from the Vista beta a (un-)happy 10th birthday.

i don't understand why the icons aren't the first thing they refreshed at latest with Windows 8. it's probably the easiest and cheapest way to give an OS a new fresh look. Office icons, Metro icons, other UI elements, etc. everyhting has changed, but not the desktop icons. so strange....

let's hope for Windows 9....

Anybody can explain why Windows become so big, compared to xp installation?
I hope it is much slimmer and lighter than current

yay!~ - yellow wallpaper for improved insanity, i still cant understand how microsoft chose such a staggering wallpaper

I think it needs to copy office 2013 and be all blinding white with no contrast between the tiles, task bar, and apps, you know to focus on consumption

Sonne said,
So basically Windows 7 again, very innovative

Microsoft tried to be innovative... and we got the "ModernUI"

People complained.

Apparently tiles are too "different" and the Windows 7 look is too "dated"

So what's next?

Michael Scrip said,

Microsoft tried to be innovative... and we got the "ModernUI"

People complained.

Apparently tiles are too "different" and the Windows 7 look is too "dated"

So what's next?

I've heard Windows 10 will have six Start menus and one Live Tile. Personally, I could live with two Start menus. And let's face it, tiles are just too difficult for too many people to understand. They move and have colour, not like those fabulous static icons that you can line up in neat rows and columns.

Sonne said,
So basically Windows 7 again, very innovative

Yes they should take something that works and break it for the sake of 'innovation' or lack thereof.

Oh wait, that's how windows 8 got here...

Its funny when people arrogantly proclaim "nothing new for the desktop" when Windows 8 has given far more new features than windows 7 ever did.

Lord Method Man said,

Better than the failed "Metro" UI all over again. I'll stick with something that works.

"Failed"... LOL, is that why the industry is copying it?

Dot Matrix said,

"Failed"... LOL, is that why the industry is copying it?

I guess you are confusing the typography-based design language and the whole paradigm.

Cosmocronos said,

I guess you are confusing the typography-based design language and the whole paradigm.

Is that why Google's UI mimics Metro to the 'T'? Flat colors, hard edges, simple iconography, etc?

TPreston said,
Its funny when people arrogantly proclaim "nothing new for the desktop" when Windows 8 has given far more new features than windows 7 ever did.
.

Such as? As far as users are concerned nothing beats XP desktop to this date. No one can give me a reason to upgrade? Features are taken away for ugly large minimalism in explorer and other aspects including an outright obsession from Ms to hide the desktop with a closed door syndrome when a uac control pops up or when you hit start

sinetheo said,
.

Such as? As far as users are concerned nothing beats XP desktop to this date. No one can give me a reason to upgrade? Features are taken away for ugly large minimalism in explorer and other aspects including an outright obsession from Ms to hide the desktop with a closed door syndrome when a uac control pops up or when you hit start

Uh-huh. XP has the *worst* desktop of any OS out there. There's plenty of reasons to upgrade.

1) Search (enough said)
2) New taskbar (introduced in 7, but since you're ignoring all the benefits of the desktop on 7, I'm including it here)
3) What's wrong with UAC?
4) Better stability
5) Better driver stability
6) Better multimonitor taskbar support
7) Better window management (snap is a killer feature both on the desktop and in Metro). No more god-awful manual window management
8) Taskbar jumplists (Again, a feature of 7, but since you're implying that 7 didn't do much, I'll again include that here too)
9) The Ribbon UI on Explorer is another killer feature for Windows 8. No more cluttered and disorganized toolbars.
10) Better support for both touch, and keyboard input.

Michael Scrip said,

Microsoft tried to be innovative... and we got the "ModernUI"

People complained.

Apparently tiles are too "different" and the Windows 7 look is too "dated"

So what's next?


"People" will always complain, but "people" will also like it. :p What's interesting is how large these two groups are, and that's when market analysis kicks in. With Windows 8.x, I have a feeling Microsoft found the majority had a problem which actually did impact sales, so they're backtracking that push a bit.

I personally like that idea. If Windows 9 gives an option rather than try to "run the show" and dictate how it wants you to use it, I think it could end up being an excellent operating system.

And no, that won't make it Windows 7. Windows 8 + 8.1 had numerous desktop changes, and Windows 9 will of course have even more. It'll be to Windows 7 what Windows 7 was to Vista, if not even further ahead.

MatsSvensson said,
"9) The Ribbon UI on Explorer is another 'feature' for Windows 8. More cluttered and disorganized toolbars"

Fixed it for you.

Exactly how is the Ribbon cluttered and disorganized, when it's organized into groups?

You will practically never see GUI changes in alpha versions of Windows. If this was of Windows 9, I wouldn't expect to see much of any real GUI change until at least beta, if not RC.

Early versions are always about infrastructure changes to the platform. GUI's occur after that. Plus Microsoft may very well hold back some of its major GUI changes from the general public until the end of the RC process, in which you'll only see those changes through leaks right before the product is released anyway.

ITFiend said,
I wouldn't expect to see much of any real GUI change until at least beta, if not RC..

You'd see them well before RC....

Entirely depends on how the change, how secretive Microsoft wants to try and be, how successful they are with hiding it, or if they even had the idea long before RC, and how it'll play into marketing of the product.

Microsoft's success with marketing is akin of watching someone play Russian roulette, except that Microsoft loads at least half the chambers so their gun has more bullets than it should. They frequently shoot themselves as a result. Sadly, the times Microsoft tends to be brilliant with marketing, they have to pull the marketing because it offends someone.

ITFiend said,
You will practically never see GUI changes in alpha versions of Windows. If this was of Windows 9, I wouldn't expect to see much of any real GUI change until at least beta, if not RC.

Early versions are always about infrastructure changes to the platform. GUI's occur after that. Plus Microsoft may very well hold back some of its major GUI changes from the general public until the end of the RC process, in which you'll only see those changes through leaks right before the product is released anyway.


Beta 1 of Windows 8 was where they revealed the new UI there. I think early beta is when you'll see new UI elements again.

The major changes that were related to a completely new application infrastructure, yes. The changes I suspect you are referring to were significantly combined with more than just GUI alterations. A lot of new code was added, and a lot of old code was removed, that involves the way the GUI even functioned.

Those types of changes will definitely be present in beta.

Edited by ITFiend, Jul 12 2014, 2:49am :

Stokkolm said,

Beta 1 of Windows 8 was where they revealed the new UI there. I think early beta is when you'll see new UI elements again.

It had a win 7 GUI as an alpha release. The beta fish is the trademark of the betas

shockz said,

You'd see them well before RC....


Well, for example, Windows 8 did not include the Start Screen before they revealed it at AllThingsD

Stokkolm said,

Beta 1 of Windows 8 was where they revealed the new UI there. I think early beta is when you'll see new UI elements again.

Yes, the dev preview, however all that leaked before did not contain any Modern UI leaks, only references to it called "immersive shell"

The first two leaks of what became the Developer Preview (7850 and 7989) both included the Start menu - in fact, the Start menu and ModernUI were both available at the same time.

I think deep down everyone knows there's not going to me a major UI change (in the desktop environment) nor sweeping new icons. Just not going to happen. Modern UI was not a sweeping change as it was designed "for" tablets and touch devices, though it functions with the desktop.

Every time there's a new release people keep hoping for the same thing and it's not going to happen.

Using, dissected it through many Microsoft Connect Feedback bugs and was disappointed see that they didn't fix many ground breaking bugs and only added little bit stuff.

I don't think the new start menu will be included for the only reason that is already confirmed by Microsoft that will be integrated in Windows 9.

macoman said,
I don't think the new start menu will be included for the only reason that is already confirmed by Microsoft that will be integrated in Windows 9.

'New amazing sliding start menu is back! Mind boggling 0.0020% performance increase! Experience the same beautiful Windows 95/Vista leftover icons in all their glory that you've seen reused for the past decade! Bask in the glory at the jagged font rendering system introduced in Windows 8 all over again. Enjoy 30+ more small features you'll never use! Order your copy now for only $300 retail.'

I'll be migrating to Linux if Windows 9 doesn't come with some long overdue features that focus on the desktop space. How long overdue is native tabbed explorer browsing? Or how about the horribly cluttered control panel? Virtual desktops? Better font rendering? Outdated icon theme?

lolneowin said,

'New amazing sliding start menu is back! Mind boggling 0.0020% performance increase! Experience the same beautiful Windows 95/Vista leftover icons in all their glory that you've seen reused for the past decade! Bask in the glory at the jagged font rendering system introduced in Windows 8 all over again. Enjoy 30+ more small features you'll never use! Order your copy now for only $300 retail.'

I'll be migrating to Linux if Windows 9 doesn't come with some long overdue features that focus on the desktop space. How long overdue is native tabbed explorer browsing? Or how about the horribly cluttered control panel? Virtual desktops? Better font rendering? Outdated icon theme?

Congrats, you can migrate to Linux with the other 8 people that use it on a desktop/laptop.

BTW... Already also confirmed by Microsoft that Windows 9 will be a free upgrade for Windows 8.1... So no money involved to get the latest and greatest.

macoman said,
BTW... Already also confirmed by Microsoft that Windows 9 will be a free upgrade for Windows 8.1... So no money involved to get the latest and greatest.

I highly doubt that. Source please.

http://www.winbeta.org/news/wi...ndows-7-and-windows-8-users
"According to ZDNet, Microsoft is thinking about making Windows 9 free for not only Windows 8 and Windows 8.x users, but Windows 7 users too. Microsoft is in the mindset of getting Windows 7 users to upgrade, and making the next big release free for them is a definite nudge for users still using the 5 year old operating system."
It might be a possibility, seeing how 8 failed in most ways for winning over users.

MonoKo said,
http://www.winbeta.org/news/wi...ndows-7-and-windows-8-users
"According to ZDNet, Microsoft is thinking about making Windows 9 free for not only Windows 8 and Windows 8.x users, but Windows 7 users too. Microsoft is in the mindset of getting Windows 7 users to upgrade, and making the next big release free for them is a definite nudge for users still using the 5 year old operating system."
It might be a possibility, seeing how 8 failed in most ways for winning over users.

So NOT confirmed then, but a ZDnet rumour.

macoman said,
BTW... Already also confirmed by Microsoft that Windows 9 will be a free upgrade for Windows 8.1... So no money involved to get the latest and greatest.

By "confirmed by Microsoft", you actually mean "rumoured on sites like Neowin" don't you? Microsoft have made no such confirmation, unless of course you've got a source that everybody else has missed.

TCLN Ryster said,

By "confirmed by Microsoft", you actually mean "rumoured on sites like Neowin" don't you? Microsoft have made no such confirmation, unless of course you've got a source that everybody else has missed.

When I said confirmed, it means that Microsoft publicly published that they may offer Windows 9 for free. The same thing they said about the improved start menu that may come on Windows 9.

lolneowin said,

'New amazing sliding start menu is back! Mind boggling 0.0020% performance increase! Experience the same beautiful Windows 95/Vista leftover icons in all their glory that you've seen reused for the past decade! Bask in the glory at the jagged font rendering system introduced in Windows 8 all over again. Enjoy 30+ more small features you'll never use! Order your copy now for only $300 retail.'

I'll be migrating to Linux if Windows 9 doesn't come with some long overdue features that focus on the desktop space. How long overdue is native tabbed explorer browsing? Or how about the horribly cluttered control panel? Virtual desktops? Better font rendering? Outdated icon theme?

How is the Control Panel cluttered?

What about Virtual desktops? Windows 8 comes with Hyper-V built in.

macoman said,

When I said confirmed, it means that Microsoft publicly published that they may offer Windows 9 for free. The same thing they said about the improved start menu that may come on Windows 9.

That was only for those smaller tablet devices who don't have bigger screens that they said this for. It was mentioned some where on Neowin I just cant remember the page for it. Either way it be awesome if they did this but so long as they let us do a clean install. I refuse to do this store nonsense that doesn't let you do a clean install.

lolneowin said,
I'll be migrating to Linux if Windows 9 doesn't come with some long overdue features that focus on the desktop space. How long overdue is native tabbed explorer browsing? Or how about the horribly cluttered control panel? Virtual desktops? Better font rendering? Outdated icon theme?

All of that can be added/changed as you see fit, been doable for years.

lolneowin said,

'New amazing sliding start menu is back! Mind boggling 0.0020% performance increase! Experience the same beautiful Windows 95/Vista leftover icons in all their glory that you've seen reused for the past decade! Bask in the glory at the jagged font rendering system introduced in Windows 8 all over again. Enjoy 30+ more small features you'll never use! Order your copy now for only $300 retail.'

I'll be migrating to Linux if Windows 9 doesn't come with some long overdue features that focus on the desktop space. How long overdue is native tabbed explorer browsing? Or how about the horribly cluttered control panel? Virtual desktops? Better font rendering? Outdated icon theme?

It will be free or like $15 upgrade again $50 tops. Mostly all hardware will work out of box with it no screwing around installing drivers. Just better support, better games apps that sorta thing.. Well worth the money. I mean every what 2 years or slightly under pay a few $'s it's so cheap its like less than $1 a week!

And icons.. really that argument just skin them or change them out yourself. You customize your linux right? Do the same to windows....

AmazingRando said,
I really hope not if MS decides to charge for Windows 9. That would look REALLY bad if they tried that.
No it wouldn't. I should expect them to charge for it, just like very other major Windows release has been.

Mulsivaas said,
No it wouldn't. I should expect them to charge for it, just like very other major Windows release has been.

Think about this. They alienated a vocal majority of people against Windows 8 with one of things by removing the Start Menu. This is to the point that people that know nothing about computers assume, falsely, that Windows 8 is horrible and to steer clear.

Then Windows 9 re-adds things or even "fixes" things that were "wrong" with Windows 8, which is already the perception going around - like Windows 7 "fixed" Vista.

Then they are going to charge for "fixing" their previous "error ridden" OS. People dont like that idea.

AmazingRando said,

Think about this. They alienated a vocal majority of people against Windows 8 with one of things by removing the Start Menu. This is to the point that people that know nothing about computers assume, falsely, that Windows 8 is horrible and to steer clear.

Then Windows 9 re-adds things or even "fixes" things that were "wrong" with Windows 8, which is already the perception going around - like Windows 7 "fixed" Vista.

Then they are going to charge for "fixing" their previous "error ridden" OS. People dont like that idea.

They charged for 7 to "fix" Vista...

AmazingRando said,

Think about this. They alienated a vocal majority of people against Windows 8 with one of things by removing the Start Menu. This is to the point that people that know nothing about computers assume, falsely, that Windows 8 is horrible and to steer clear.

Then Windows 9 re-adds things or even "fixes" things that were "wrong" with Windows 8, which is already the perception going around - like Windows 7 "fixed" Vista.

Then they are going to charge for "fixing" their previous "error ridden" OS. People dont like that idea.

Except millions of people still bought and use Windows 8, so you're argument is quite moot.

Mulsivaas said,
Except millions of people still bought and use Windows 8, so you're argument is quite moot.

Yes it is quite moot. Please lookup the definition of moot and start using it correctly.

Win 8 adoption rate is low and slow for various reasons. I am not saying Win 8 is broke, but the perception is, even with common people, that it's junk and to avoid it.

AmazingRando said,

Yes it is quite moot. Please lookup the definition of moot and start using it correctly.

Win 8 adoption rate is low and slow for various reasons. I am not saying Win 8 is broke, but the perception is, even with common people, that it's junk and to avoid it.

Only people i see who call it junk are those who got there opinion from another computer illiterate who could not cope with no start menu, i ###### you not most my friends actual tell there parents "it's got no start menu, feels odd, you wont get on with it, its more for touch screens" This just gets handed down to there parents friends and so on.

Using Windows 8 myself have been from beta, once you get used to start menu and ignore metro it's not bad. Not saying you should have to avoid those things they should be avoidable by default anyway. but if you know what you are doing disabling metro makes windows 8 feel really nice to use.

My only hates with it is being forced into metro, when trying to search for app you get a full screen metro to the face, and the whole metro interface is just yuck you cant even just use it on its own (the metro that is) because some apps will boot you out of metro to desktop anyway... Bloody pointless.

But windows 8 as a whole without metro is fantastic. Disable it and you are all good.

With Vista however... That was only so bad because memory issues people getting it on machines that were not powerful enough and stuff. This is something a geek could not solve without chucking money into the machine. Thats a different kind of issue all together. Windows 8 just disable metro.. Windows Vista buy a different PC or some more ram or better CPU.

AmazingRando said,

Yes it is quite moot. Please lookup the definition of moot and start using it correctly.

I used moot correctly. I did, however, use the word "argument" when I meant to type "opinion."

Mulsivaas said,
I used moot correctly. I did, however, use the word "argument" when I meant to type "opinion."

Moot means something is up for debate or question. It does not mean an end to a debate due to insufficient or conflicting evidence.

Millions of people may be using Windows 8, but the consensus even at Microsoft is that the adoption and sales are well below their other OS's.

[quote=AmazingRando said,]

Moot means something is up for debate or question. It does not mean an end to a debate due to insufficient or conflicting evidence.[quote]I wasn't trying to end it. Haven't you heard someone admit differing opinions by saying, "Well, that's arguable." This usually does, however, also end the debate.

Brad Sams
As more users start to get their hands on this build, we will be curious to see if the new Start menu is included.

I'll let you know in a few hours.